@darthor For the sake of clarity, I'll elaborate here (I didn't see your last post; apologies for that).
Thats not a fair comparison. An amulet is created based on the inner abilities of the character in the force. If the pepper spray is something that I personally created, and you know I'm coming at you with it (Vader does), then I think that still means that I can win in a normal fight
You're misunderstanding the point. The pepper spray in this analogy is something I have never encountered, nor that I expect. It's not something I can account for nor prepare for because I have no knowledge of it. However, that doesn't mean you're actually stronger or more powerful than I am; it means that you have some tricks that I don't have nor that I can actually prepare for. It is, quite literally, a cheat. Muur is not more powerful than Vader, and Vader being concerned that an Ancient Sith he has only passing knowledge of might be able to vaguely take control of him or compel him doesn't mean Muur is stronger. This is a pretty basic concept, to be honest.
Also, Morne was actively fighting back against Muur per multiple sources, so Muur in full power is still above Vader
No she wasn't. Morne simply told him "no" when he told her to give in. He makes no effort to possess her.
True, but raw power and real power are very different.
You're referring to applicable power, I presume? Kyp's applicable power was also much greater than Kun's at that point in time. It didn't help.
How is it not true? The Talisman is a straight possessing ability. If it can work to opponents far greater, then Valk can possess the Bedlam spirits. Its even harder to possess somebody then to resist it.
The talisman isn't "a straight possessing ability". It's all of Muur's essence - his consciousness, his power, his very spirit - contained in an artefact. It is entirely possible for beings to be telepathically outmaneuvered or even possessed by beings far weaker than themselves. Kyp and Kun are one example, just as Abeloth and Darish Vol are another. You are trying to use a line of argument that simply does not work.
True, but if I can beat you to the point that you becomes my servant, I will still say I am more powerful
Or it means that this ancient master of the Dark Side who is infamous for his sorcery and mastery of esoteric abilities might have some tricks you have no counter for. That is not a sign of superiority in any sense of applicable power.
Can you possibly post some of these implications? Also, Muur is Pall's shadow hands, so I doubt he is more powerful.
Muur continued to improve and grow stronger and more knowledgeable long after Pall became their leader. As I recall, many of his experiments and discoveries came long after that.
Thats not the basis of my scaling. The entirety of the Exile's powers aside from their Jedi training (which is pretty average) is the Star Map, something that they fear. And the Star Forge is infinitely more powerful than the Star Map and Malak can control it with ease.
The Star Forge isn't a sentient force. Him controlling it is like me owning a factory.
Also, Malak >> Kun >> all previous Sith
That quote is hotly contested by many SW debaters both now and in the past, all of whom have presented reasonable doubt to disregard it. As I recall, it was actually stated to no longer be binding by the author, since it's been removed and replaced, since.
@eredin12: Just saying, but Vader scales astronomically above this anyway:
After his servants sabotage a local power plant, he unleashes his anger on the floating cities of Genarius. Lighting arcs through the clouds, destroying hundreds of homes as his followers scream through the streets, blasters white-hot. Thousands die.
-- Living Force Campaign Guide
Mind you, this is a mere Dark Jedi who is an insect next to someone like Tenebrous or his master, let alone Vader.
@darthor: Eh tbh with you this is scaling in which i am not completely convinced about, about it being better than some feats/scalling Vader has, but as I also love Revan, i will agree with you here lol
It's honestly quite iron-clapsed. And I'm not aware of anything Vader has placing above this feat.
Well you said:
1. Outlander >>> Base HoT >>> Hindered HoT who just fought through an army >>>>>> Valk who can bust temples
Revan >>>>>>>>>> SoR EW II >>> Act III EW II > Darth Baras >>> Lord Fulminisis who destroyed a city
Which is true, but at the same time ROTJ Vader>ESB Vader>>ANH Vader is>ROTS Palpatine who is>>>TPM Palpatine who is=>Darth Plegious who can shake stars, granted there is not as much">" but shaking stars is also lot better than busting city lmo, it should make up for gap, putting them as close in my opinion
Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious,
-Darth Plagueis
There is also this legendary meme from Azonger lol
But on a serious note, that is why I was not 100% convinced and why I said it is good to fight. But I can see where you are coming from
The thing that shaked Stars is the disturbance in the force that Plaggy and Sidious spent their life trying to achieve. It is not like they just randomly blasted a force wave that shook a star
On a side note, that star feat is more or less hyperbole
And yes, I agree they are quite close, I never stated other wise. When I say Revan stomp I am referring to EoO Revan
@eredin12: Just saying, but Vader scales astronomically above this anyway:
After his servants sabotage a local power plant, he unleashes his anger on the floating cities of Genarius. Lighting arcs through the clouds, destroying hundreds of homes as his followers scream through the streets, blasters white-hot. Thousands die.
-- Living Force Campaign Guide
Mind you, this is a mere Dark Jedi who is an insect next to someone like Tenebrous or his master, let alone Vader.
Revan scales further above the city feat than Vader. Not to mention this Dark jedi is rage amped: "he unleashes his anger"
@darthor For the sake of clarity, I'll elaborate here (I didn't see your last post; apologies for that).
Thats not a fair comparison. An amulet is created based on the inner abilities of the character in the force. If the pepper spray is something that I personally created, and you know I'm coming at you with it (Vader does), then I think that still means that I can win in a normal fight
You're misunderstanding the point. The pepper spray in this analogy is something I have never encountered, nor that I expect. It's not something I can account for nor prepare for because I have no knowledge of it. However, that doesn't mean you're actually stronger or more powerful than I am; it means that you have some tricks that I don't have nor that I can actually prepare for. It is, quite literally, a cheat. Muur is not more powerful than Vader, and Vader being concerned that an Ancient Sith he has only passing knowledge of might be able to vaguely take control of him or compel him doesn't mean Muur is stronger. This is a pretty basic concept, to be honest.
Many low tiers such as Zayne Carrick can resist the power of the Muur amulet, and even Celeste Morne, a Jedi completely below Obi Wan tier, managed to fight back against Muur. None of them also have any preparation in term of resisting an amulet created several thousands years before their time. This argument simply doesn't work
Also, Morne was actively fighting back against Muur per multiple sources, so Muur in full power is still above Vader
No she wasn't. Morne simply told him "no" when he told her to give in. He makes no effort to possess her.
What? Morne is still fighting back. She was fighting for the body per multiple sources and explicitly stated somewhere.
True, but raw power and real power are very different.
You're referring to applicable power, I presume? Kyp's applicable power was also much greater than Kun's at that point in time. It didn't help.
I firmly disagree there. What feats does Kyp have during the time of Jedi academy that places him so explicitly above Kun? If you are referring to his black hole feat, that is a complete outlier.
How is it not true? The Talisman is a straight possessing ability. If it can work to opponents far greater, then Valk can possess the Bedlam spirits. Its even harder to possess somebody then to resist it.
The talisman isn't "a straight possessing ability". It's all of Muur's essence - his consciousness, his power, his very spirit - contained in an artefact. It is entirely possible for beings to be telepathically outmaneuvered or even possessed by beings far weaker than themselves. Kyp and Kun are one example, just as Abeloth and Darish Vol are another. You are trying to use a line of argument that simply does not work.
There are a lot of circumstances regarding Vol possessing Abeloth, things I am too lazy to dig up again. On the other hand, Kyp and Kun are comparable, so I don't see why not. Note that I only need to prove Muur ~ Vader here
True, but if I can beat you to the point that you becomes my servant, I will still say I am more powerful
Or it means that this ancient master of the Dark Side who is infamous for his sorcery and mastery of esoteric abilities might have some tricks you have no counter for. That is not a sign of superiority in any sense of applicable power.
So? Revan also has several unique abilities up his sleeve. Not to mention, what unique abilities. AT possessing is not something that Vader doesn't have.
Can you possibly post some of these implications? Also, Muur is Pall's shadow hands, so I doubt he is more powerful.
Muur continued to improve and grow stronger and more knowledgeable long after Pall became their leader. As I recall, many of his experiments and discoveries came long after that.
And given Muur's ambitious nature it is not too far off the bat to argue that he will take control if he truly becomes more powerful isn' it? Besides, it doesn't matter, as the quote is talking about the Exiles collectively
Thats not the basis of my scaling. The entirety of the Exile's powers aside from their Jedi training (which is pretty average) is the Star Map, something that they fear. And the Star Forge is infinitely more powerful than the Star Map and Malak can control it with ease.
The Star Forge isn't a sentient force. Him controlling it is like me owning a factory.
It is a powerful machine that have severe backlash for beings who cannot control it. That is the reason Revan is weakened on Yalvin IV, the backlash of an extremely powerful machine
On a side note, the Star Map also isn't a sentient force, but it is so powerful that the Exile can't even control it fully. SF is infinitely superior to the Star Map
Also, Malak >> Kun >> all previous Sith
That quote is hotly contested by many SW debaters both now and in the past, all of whom have presented reasonable doubt to disregard it. As I recall, it was actually stated to no longer be binding by the author, since it's been removed and replaced, since.
1. It is not removed and it is still a valid source in legends
2. Lelland Chee and a creator of SW materials both confirmed the quote
Can you name some counter-arguments against the quote?
@darthor: Darksiders are always angry, but that doesn't mean they are amped all the time, it's their base power. Yes, rage amps do exist, but they happen when you are particularly angry e.g. Ventress choking Anakin and Obi-Wan.
@darthor: Darksiders are always angry, but that doesn't mean they are amped all the time, it's their base power. Yes, rage amps do exist, but they happen when you are particularly angry e.g. Ventress choking Anakin and Obi-Wan.
True, but he was additionally angry in that instance and most certainly gained an extra amp
The thing that shaked Stars is the disturbance in the force that Plaggy and Sidious spent their life trying to achieve. It is not like they just randomly blasted a force wave that shook a star
On a side note, that star feat is more or less hyperbole
Actually no, the thing that shaked star is just force wave from energy Hego released as he died, that is random force wave, they spent decades trying to achieve something else, trying to fight force Telepathically and shift the balance towards Dark Side, but that is something unrelated to this
Yes exactly. It was a disturbance in the force located around Plaggy's presence, one that was released and emitted powerful energy due to his death
On a side note, SK, who managed to destroy a Star Destroyer with great strain and was exhausted afterwards, placing him in a city AP at best, managed to ragdoll Vader. SK never even showed anything even close to planetary not to mention Star level
It is not, the quote is quite clear, wave Hego made shock stars and planet, we have nothing to suggest it is hyperbolic, MuH hYpeRbole when i don't like something is not a good argument
Quite true
Also, Dark Sider was not rage amped either, anger is what powers the dark side, so dark siders are always angry hence how he " unleashes his anger" but nothing suggests any additional amp or anger there
Fair enough, but Revan does scale above Baras more than Vader does for him
Yes exactly. It was a disturbance in the force located around Plaggy's presence, one that was released and emitted powerful energy due to his death
One caused by him, by his energy leaving his body, it "Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave" meaning it scales to his power
He caused an imbalance in the force and that force disturbance emitted in powerful waves. It is not like a blast that he took from his own resort of poewr
On a side note, SK, who managed to destroy a Star Destroyer with great strain and was exhausted afterwards, placing him in a city AP at best, managed to ragdoll Vader. SK never even showed anything even close to planetary not to mention Star level
Come now Darthor you are better than this. EU Star Destroyers can tank and overpower the force of a black hole, one outright noted to be capable of destroying planets, Galen one-shotting them is at least planet level feat AP wise, not "city level at best"
And so what? Black holes in EU is unimpressive. Even the Ghost with the amp of Zeb which is more of a guide rather than a durability amp managed to navigate SEVERAL black holes.
And he was not exhausted after this either, instantly after he guided Salvation Reentry and then atomized it
I was actually referring to the famous guiding a Star Destroyer down rather than the amp a cannon to bust one. But my point is that the Sun feat is not true. Also, Darth Revan somewhat scales above the Darth Bane ravage a planet feat. Because amp is only a small spinoff of an ability that Darth Bane is too afraid to use. So even DARTH Revan can be argued to have Planet level AP
He caused an imbalance in the force and that force disturbance emitted in powerful waves. It is not like a blast that he took from his own resort of poewr
His energy after his death caused that imbalance, that energy Sprung from his death in a powerful wave with Epicenter being Hego:
I know. He is emitting the imbalance he is creating in the force.
Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious,
Force itself is omnipresent, it does not have an epicenter, here Hego was at epicenter though, him and Palpatine, meaning that force, his energy sprunt in this wave that did this, it was his power, one from his reserves
It is a force wave, I agree. He did this through him corrupting the force, a corruption that is suddenly released after his death. The corruption came from his unique ability of Midi-chlorians manipulation
And so what? Black holes in EU is unimpressive. Even the Ghost with the amp of Zeb which is more of a guide rather than a durability amp managed to navigate SEVERAL black holes.
This one is specifically noted to be able to destroy the planet. And even someone tanking normal ones is also a feat for them.
Can you please provide the quote for it destroying planets? Thanks!
I was actually referring to the famous guiding a Star Destroyer down rather than the amp a cannon to bust one. But my point is that the Sun feat is not true. Also, Darth Revan somewhat scales above the Darth Bane ravage a planet feat. Because amp is only a small spinoff of an ability that Darth Bane is too afraid to use. So even DARTH Revan can be argued to have Planet level AP
Even in that before he overpowered its engines with his TK( which overpowered gravity of that black hole) he used his energy for other stuff, luke destroying that huge factory they were located in orbit among other stuff
ok? fair enough
Stars shaking feat, not sun, Sun is the name of one star in our solar system first of all,
OH COME ON!!! DUDE!!!
and the feat is true, it happened, his energy is what caused it, it is not even near star level though as shaking takes much less energy than busting but it was small planet level at least, and Hego scales above Bane extremely as well
Fair enough. But what I'm trying to prove here is that Vader is nowhere close to STAR level AP. SK is planet level at best and he can ragdoll Vader.
True, but he was additionally angry in that instance and most certainly gained an extra amp
Do you have proof that he was angry and then became even angrier? Because that's what rage amps are. And by that I mean something like Maul vs Sidious on Hypori, where Maul became more powerful than ever.
Unless there is some context for Kibh becoming furious in that particular instance, the quote could easily indicate that he unleashed his base power on those houses. He is an insect compared to even Tenebrous'master anyway. Remember that this is just a former Padawan.
Regardless, this is the Lord Fulminiss feat you were talking about:
Widely regarded as one of the greatest Sith sorcerers in the Empire, the enigmatic Lord Fulminiss is a master of the dark side’s most arcane and lethal aspects. The grotesque Harrower assassins are his most famous creation, but legend has it he once summoned a raging storm of pure Force energy that disintegrated a rebellious city of natives in the Imperial-conquered Jabiim system.
-- The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Lord Fulminiss
Noticed the "legend has it" passage? It means that the feat is unusable because it's only a rumor, a legend, and seeing as we are talking about a Sith specialized in Sith sorcery, he could easily have used a ritual to perform it. It's an undefined and unconfirmed feat either way.
Many low tiers such as Zayne Carrick can resist the power of the Muur amulet,
The talisman never possessed Zayne. It tried to, and then chose Morne instead when she offered herself.
and even Celeste Morne, a Jedicompletely below Obi Wan tier, managed to fight back against Muur.
I'd be very curious to see the argument for Morne being "completely below Obi-Wan tier".
You've also just doubled back on yourself yet again. You've claimed that the talisman can possess Vader because Muur is stronger, yet he couldn't possess Morne, who was easily bested by a holding back Vader and was notably stronger and more skilled than her.
None of them also have any preparation in term of resisting an amulet created several thousands years before their time. This argument simply doesn't work
Okay, let's actually contextualise some of these claims, shall we?
1. As shown above, the talisman never possessed Zayne.
2. The talisman was corrupting Morne:
Gallery
It's the entire reason she was put in the Oubliette:
Gallery
Morne used that time in isolation to not only grow stronger through meditation, but also to resist Muur. Even then, she was decisively outmatched by Vader:
Gallery
Per your own logic, telepathy = your strength in the Force. If that's true, Muur ~ Morne, who was <(<) Vector - a vastly pre-prime - Vader, who in turn is << prime DT Vader.
What? Morne is still fighting back. She was fighting for the body per multiple sources and explicitly stated somewhere.
Feel free to post them. Morne only started to lose control around 120 years after her duel with Vader.
There are a lot of circumstances regarding Vol possessing Abeloth, things I am too lazy to dig up again.
The only "circumstances" were that Vol tricked Abeloth and she became cocky. When she realised what he'd done, she was explicitly unable to force him out until he seriously hurt her, even withstanding her rebuffing of him:
In her arrogant glee at the ambush she had performed, she was reckless. She surged forward, violating his mind, unaware that this was precisely what Vol wanted. She had given him entrance, and he wasted not a heartbeat in opening up to the ugliness that was within. Like a thief with the law on his heels, Vol plundered swiftly, with no care for delicacy or of discovery. And he found unexpected riches.
Anguish. Loss that ripped and tore at the heart of all that was Abeloth. Betrayal. Need-need!-for companionship, for love, for someone, anyone, anything, to adore her and to never, ever leave. To stay with her forever ...
-Don't leave me don't leave me don't leave me-
Something that was part of her, that she had loved with all that was in her, was gone, gone beyond finding again, and someone would pay, and she would be loved and idolized and worshipped, it was right, it was what should be, what would be-
He felt her astonishment, and then fury, and knew he was discovered. The tendrils were no longer coyly teasing and caressing. They were violent and brutal now, wrapping about his throat, invading his body. He resisted and went on the attack. There was a wound, visible as something black and bloody and infected, in what passed for a soul or a heart of this monster. And he went right for it.
No one loves you. You are ugly, and disgusting, and if you ever thought anyone did care for you, you were tricked and lied to, and they laughed at your gullibility.
A blast of Force anger buffeted him, but he rooted himself against it and continued.
You will never be loved. You will never be adored or cherished. Only feared and hated. And there is nothing you can do, no words you can speak, no one you can become to change that. Luke Skywalker was appalled at what you were, when he truly saw you. He follows you, not as a young gallant, oh no, but to kill you and put the universe out of its misery.
She convulsed, writhing in pain in the heart of the Force, reacting to his relentless attack on her wounded area as if he were ripping at an infected cut in the physical world. Her attack on him changed from a desire to harm to a desire to escape. Elation filled Vol. He only hoped he could survive long enough to deal the killing blow.
You live causing revulsion, you will die that way. You will die now-
So no, you're wrong on that point.
So? Revan also has several unique abilities up his sleeve.
Which he has never used in combat a la TP, nor is he being given direct physical and mental contact to Vader's psyche like Muur would be. You are trying to argue completely different cases as applicable to one another.
And given Muur's ambitious nature it is not too far off the bat to argue that he will take control if he truly becomes more powerful isn' it?
Muur was much more interested in conquering death than he was in ruling a small band of Sith, as you should know.
As for the details; the image above implies he was assassinated before he could do so.
Besides, it doesn't matter, as the quote is talking about the Exiles collectively
At a very specific point in time.
It is a powerful machine that have severe backlash for beings who cannot control it.
Which has never been seen to be the case with anyone in your scaling chain.
That is the reason Revan is weakened on Yalvin IV, the backlash of an extremely powerful machine
What? That's never once stated, nor even implied. Hell, the protagonists were standing right at the epicentre of the "backlash" even as Revan fled, and were unaffected. This is pure conjecture.
On a side note, the Star Map also isn't a sentient force, but it is so powerful that the Exile can't even control it fully. SF is infinitely superior to the Star Map
Source, please? Also, this is irrelevant to your point.
1. It is not removed and it is still a valid source in legends
It's been re-written and replaced. That's exactly what "removed" means.
2. Lelland Chee and a creator of SW materials both confirmed the quote
Yes; at the time. Since then, it's been replaced.
Can you name some counter-arguments against the quote?
Let's see:
1. The HoT scales above Malak per numerous scaling chains as of SoR, yet the mere echo of Kun's spirit at a fraction of its full power flings him about and leaves him stunned and unable to move.
2. Per the writer of the article, the quote should be disregarded if contradicted by stats:
I've always said (or hope I did) that as a contractor writing Star Wars, anything I say later is my opinion only. If there exist hard, LFL-approved stats that say otherwise about Kun and Malak, follow those. My articles did go through approvals, though, FWIW. Hope this helps?
Many low tiers such as Zayne Carrick can resist the power of the Muur amulet,
The talisman never possessed Zayne. It tried to, and then chose Morne instead when she offered herself.
Yes, it tried to, and failed, to possess him.
and even Celeste Morne, a Jedicompletely below Obi Wan tier, managed to fight back against Muur.
I'd be very curious to see the argument for Morne being "completely below Obi-Wan tier".
What has she done of note without the talisman? Ragdolling several monsters?
You've also just doubled back on yourself yet again. You've claimed that the talisman can possess Vader because Muur is stronger, yet he couldn't possess Morne, who was easily bested by a holding back Vader and was notably stronger and more skilled than her.
No. I'm saying that if Vader is truly so much more powerful than Muur, he will have no trouble resisting
None of them also have any preparation in term of resisting an amulet created several thousands years before their time. This argument simply doesn't work
Okay, let's actually contextualise some of these claims, shall we?
1. As shown above, the talisman never possessed Zayne.
It tried to, but fair enough
2. The talisman was corrupting Morne:
Fair
Gallery
It's the entire reason she was put in the Oubliette:
Fair. But that does elevate the power of the talisman.
Gallery
Morne used that time in isolation to not only grow stronger through meditation, but also to resist Muur. Even then, she was decisively outmatched by Vader:
What? If Morne is fighting back, that means that Vader is not > Muur.
Gallery
Per your own logic, telepathy = your strength in the Force. If that's true, Muur ~ Morne, who was <(<) Vector - a vastly pre-prime - Vader, who in turn is << prime DT Vader.
Can you please elaborate? I am a bit lost here. Morne spend thousands of years trying to resist a weakened Muur, and considering the fact that Muur is directly stated to be above Vader
What? Morne is still fighting back. She was fighting for the body per multiple sources and explicitly stated somewhere.
Feel free to post them. Morne only started to lose control around 120 years after her duel with Vader.
Thats true. I got confused there and I was thinking about the legacy era.
There are a lot of circumstances regarding Vol possessing Abeloth, things I am too lazy to dig up again.
The only "circumstances" were that Vol tricked Abeloth and she became cocky. When she realised what he'd done, she was explicitly unable to force him out until he seriously hurt her, even withstanding her rebuffing of him:
True, but that is far from him enslaving her. And she was caught off guard. Vader was always on guard. It is easier to resist their rebuffing when you already possessed them.
In her arrogant glee at the ambush she had performed, she was reckless. She surged forward, violating his mind, unaware that this was precisely what Vol wanted. She had given him entrance, and he wasted not a heartbeat in opening up to the ugliness that was within. Like a thief with the law on his heels, Vol plundered swiftly, with no care for delicacy or of discovery. And he found unexpected riches.
Anguish. Loss that ripped and tore at the heart of all that was Abeloth. Betrayal. Need-need!-for companionship, for love, for someone, anyone, anything, to adore her and to never, ever leave. To stay with her forever ...
-Don't leave me don't leave me don't leave me-
Something that was part of her, that she had loved with all that was in her, was gone, gone beyond finding again, and someone would pay, and she would be loved and idolized and worshipped, it was right, it was what should be, what would be-
He felt her astonishment, and then fury, and knew he was discovered. The tendrils were no longer coyly teasing and caressing. They were violent and brutal now, wrapping about his throat, invading his body. He resisted and went on the attack. There was a wound, visible as something black and bloody and infected, in what passed for a soul or a heart of this monster. And he went right for it.
No one loves you. You are ugly, and disgusting, and if you ever thought anyone did care for you, you were tricked and lied to, and they laughed at your gullibility.
A blast of Force anger buffeted him, but he rooted himself against it and continued.
You will never be loved. You will never be adored or cherished. Only feared and hated. And there is nothing you can do, no words you can speak, no one you can become to change that. Luke Skywalker was appalled at what you were, when he truly saw you. He follows you, not as a young gallant, oh no, but to kill you and put the universe out of its misery.
She convulsed, writhing in pain in the heart of the Force, reacting to his relentless attack on her wounded area as if he were ripping at an infected cut in the physical world. Her attack on him changed from a desire to harm to a desire to escape. Elation filled Vol. He only hoped he could survive long enough to deal the killing blow.
You live causing revulsion, you will die that way. You will die now-
So no, you're wrong on that point.
I am not wrong
So? Revan also has several unique abilities up his sleeve.
Which he has never used in combat a la TP, nor is he being given direct physical and mental contact to Vader's psyche like Muur would be. You are trying to argue completely different cases as applicable to one another.
Maybe you will like to make some arguments for Vader > Revan then.
And given Muur's ambitious nature it is not too far off the bat to argue that he will take control if he truly becomes more powerful isn' it?
Muur was much more interested in conquering death than he was in ruling a small band of Sith, as you should know.
two things that are not mutually exclusive.
As for the details; the image above implies he was assassinated before he could do so.
Besides, it doesn't matter, as the quote is talking about the Exiles collectively
At a very specific point in time.
The source of their power is the star map. It is their collective power forever.
It is a powerful machine that have severe backlash for beings who cannot control it.
Which has never been seen to be the case with anyone in your scaling chain.
I am referring to SF on Malak.
That is the reason Revan is weakened on Yalvin IV, the backlash of an extremely powerful machine
What? That's never once stated, nor even implied. Hell, the protagonists were standing right at the epicentre of the "backlash" even as Revan fled, and were unaffected. This is pure conjecture.
No, the machine is connected to Revan's power. He was trying to control it, and therefore he got the backlash. But thats beside th point
On a side note, the Star Map also isn't a sentient force, but it is so powerful that the Exile can't even control it fully. SF is infinitely superior to the Star Map
Source, please? Also, this is irrelevant to your point.
For which part of my argument?
1. It is not removed and it is still a valid source in legends
It's been re-written and replaced. That's exactly what "removed" means.
Was it? Can you please provide the proof? I wasn't aware of it
2. Lelland Chee and a creator of SW materials both confirmed the quote
Yes; at the time. Since then, it's been replaced.
Can you name some counter-arguments against the quote?
Let's see:
1. The HoT scales above Malak per numerous scaling chains as of SoR, yet the mere echo of Kun's spirit at a fraction of its full power flings him about and leaves him stunned and unable to move.
You yourself is trying to argue for an ancient amulet of the Ancient Sith might have some special powers that can defeat somebody more powerful but have no answers for their sorcery. Also, can you provide the scaling for HoT > Malak?
2. Per the writer of the article, the quote should be disregarded if contradicted by stats:
I've always said (or hope I did) that as a contractor writing Star Wars, anything I say later is my opinion only. If there exist hard, LFL-approved stats that say otherwise about Kun and Malak, follow those. My articles did go through approvals, though, FWIW. Hope this helps?
So if you are arguing by stats, then Darth Malak > Revan > Kun
This is SF Malak V.S base Exar Kun, from the KOTOR Campaign Guide itself.
By that logic, DARTH Revan also outclasses Kun in all categories except for apprentice which is unrelated to his powers, and Darth Malak is stated to have surpassed his master. So...
So if you are arguing by stats, then Darth Malak > Revan > Kun
3. The same company that published that article later reprinted it, replacing the quotes with ones that had absolutely nothing to do with Kun.
Really
Trying to use retconned material is blatantly disingenuous.
Also, because I'm really tired of this "telepathy = raw power" argument; does that mean that you think BoKOTFE Outlander = Valkorion?
"When you struck me down, I refused to surrender to mortality. My spirit invaded your body in search of a new host. You resisted."
That is exactly what I am trying to say. If HoT, who is weaker than Valk, can resist him, why can't Vader is he is more powerful than Muur? The only explanation is Vader is less powerful than MuuR
Also, this has nothing to do with our discussion for Muur vs Vader but why dyu have DT Vader as prime?
It is a force wave, I agree. He did this through him corrupting the force, a corruption that is suddenly released after his death. The corruption came from his unique ability of Midi-chlorians manipulation
him corrupting force happened many years before and as a result Force made Anakin revenge, this on other hand has nothing to do with that act or midi-chlorians, this it is just force wave he made as he died as his energy was released, still it is not near star level , just small planet level+ feat
He became a blight on the force and the corruption was released. But anyways
Can you please provide the quote for it destroying planets? Thanks!
0Fair enough. But what I'm trying to prove here is that Vader is nowhere close to STAR level AP. SK is planet level at best and he can ragdoll Vader.
Oh i agree that he is not near star level, but he is planet level, so is Sk, as planet level is actually huge spectrum
What? If SK is planet level then Vader is small planet level at best right?
(Tier 13) Crucible Luke >>> FoTJ Luke > LoTF Luke > NJO Luke > DE Luke > RoTJ Luke = Yoda >> Fisto > Knight > Padawan > Youngling/Initiate (> = medium difficulty)
Ulic > Nomi (6) Vodo (4) 6x Jedi Knights (18) = Tier 28
@darthor: Not really, just his energy/ power in the wave
Planet level is range though, there are planets bigger than earth, for instance it takes thousands of times more enerrgy to destroy Jupiter than Earth, Vader can be around Earth level AP wise while SK can be dozens of times above that and still be just planet level, not ,large planet level
Right but we have no idea how big are the planets the Maw can destroy.
Also, I did a bit of background research, and I found out the counter against the Star Destroyer feat. The Gorgon, on the ship that survived Maw, survived under two conditions: A: It is super-sized and more durable. The Gorgon is over 1500 meters while the Star Destroyer SK destroyed is an extension of the Venator-class star destroyer meaning around 1140 meters
B: As part of the Maw research program, the Star Destroyer is specifically prepped to tank the Maw
So no, you cannot compare SK's feat to planetary ones
Revan is one of the best handled gary stus in fiction, imo. I wholly admit it as a greater KotOR fan than I am an OT fan. As a concept his original character really only works in a video-game, one with an amazing story, which is exactly what he got, it's little wonder his character is so popular.
Vader was that awesomely designed villain that made kid's mouths drop in the 70s and early 80s, but Revan is us, he is every young boy that picked up the controller of their original xbox and played through that masterpiece of a game to live the dream of being someone, really someonein the Star Wars Universe. He was everything: Military Genius, Jedi Prodigy, Figure of Legend, Nexus of Destiny, enigmatic walker of the untrod path, and a handsome devil(/angel) to boot. I will never run short on good things to say about that game, or that character, despite how tailor suited he is to really only that one medium.
But enough pontificating... this is a battle forum and by virtue of scaling and feats from his relatively few showings, Revan wins the day over the ever iconic Vader..
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