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Posted by NotZiggy (15 posts) 2 months, 8 days ago

Poll: Revan vs Vader (77 votes)

Revan 51%
Vader 49%

Peaks for both

Fighting on a wide invisible platform on the ocean.

Who wins and why?

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#1 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2522 posts) - - Show Bio

Revan wins. He's better in virtually every category, whether that be Force power, Force mastery, Force knowledge, Force augmentation, willpower, durability, lightsaber combat, etc.

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#2 Edited by BreakOfDawn (1571 posts) - - Show Bio

Hasn't this been done multiple times?

Anyway, Vader takes this.

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#3 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2522 posts) - - Show Bio

Hasn't this been done multiple times?

Anyway, Vader takes this.

How come?

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#4 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1220 posts) - - Show Bio

Revan ragdolls him.

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#5 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

My gut screams Vader. Until the debate's end, however, no decision from my part is final.

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#6 Posted by BreakOfDawn (1571 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: Superior lightsaber skill and comparable Force power (to the point that it's an ongoing debate in a CaV), mainly.

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#7 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2522 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn said:

@darthant66: Superior lightsaber skill

Maybe, although Vader hasn't particularly impressed me (bested by TPM Maul, can't overcome old Ben Kenobi, pushed back and later clipped by ESB Luke, bested by ROTJ Luke). What's your main reasoning for why Vader's definitely beyond Revan despite this? Also, regardless, Revan can simply teleport away if he's ever pressed in close-quarters, or his Sion-like durability's likely strong enough to just shrug off the hits.

and comparable Force power (to the point that it's an ongoing debate in a CaV), mainly.

Why does the fact it's an ongoing debate mean they have comparable powers? There was a Revan vs Kreia CaV - is Kreia likewise comparable to Vader?

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#9 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that 33% of the votes are for Vader makes me cringe.

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#11 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1220 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by DeutschKurzhaar (1428 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing that could save Vader is the force. But Revans is just as good, so Revan takes this, it would be a good fight though

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#13 Posted by Supermanthor (16220 posts) - - Show Bio

Reven

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#14 Edited by BreakOfDawn (1571 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: Those are all valid, but nearly all of those defeats were with a vastly pre-prime Vader (around ANH). It'd be like me saying Vader is superior because Foundry Revan - who's considerably below SOR Revan - was defeated by the likes of the Emperor's Wrath and/or Darth Nox. In the case of ESB, Vader made it a point to not try and land a serious blow on Luke throughout the duel and simply intends to incapacitate him. I don't regard Luke managing to land a shallow cut on his arm as a low showing considering the circumstances surrounding it and then an enraged Vader quickly ends the fight.

I don't think Vader is decidedly above Revan in lightsaber combat - though I do below there is some kind of gap - and Force power is definitely debatable. However, my reference to the ongoing CaV was meant to refer to the actual arguments for Vader and against Revan that have somewhat forced me to reconsider how close this is. As far as I can tell, Revan's only real edge is in pure versatility. In power they're fairly close, and a duel like this will never be settled with a lightsaber duel.

If Revan exploits his abilities to their maximum (teleporting, lightning, stasis, etc) I believe he can win. However, I believe that in a head-to-head duel Vader has a slight edge. However, the idea that Vader cannot win under any circumstances - let alone that Revan can ragdoll him - is laughable to me (this isn't directed at you).

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#15 Edited by Richard96 (5640 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Vader, albeit narrowly.

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#16 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2522 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn said:

@darthant66: Those are all valid, but nearly all of those defeats were with a vastly pre-prime Vader (around ANH).

Not particularly. The only source that suggests Vader grew significantly between ANH and ESB is Fightsaber, but not only have the reasons attributed to the growth largely been retconned, the source essentially states that ANH Obi-Wan and ANH Vader are beneath AOTC Obi-Wan and AOTC Anakin as well. Fightsaber also suggests that Vader's lightsaber polish even after growing "far more formidable" is still inferior to fully fledged Jedi Master in his prime (i.e. incorporating Lucas' infamous "old men, young kids, and half-droid quote). I definitely wouldn't use that source to hype up Vader.

It'd be like me saying Vader is superior because Foundry Revan - who's considerably below SOR Revan - was defeated by the likes of the Emperor's Wrath and/or Darth Nox.

Except we have many reasons as to believe Foundry Revan is far less powerful than SOR Revan, but not even half that amount for ANH Vader to ROTJ Vader.

In the case of ESB, Vader made it a point to not try and land a serious blow on Luke throughout the duel and simply intends to incapacitate him. I don't regard Luke managing to land a shallow cut on his arm as a low showing considering the circumstances surrounding it and then an enraged Vader quickly ends the fight.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact Vader A.) couldn't kill Luke easily, B.) had actively attempted to defeat him, C.) overall considered Luke a "worthy opponent." As for the "shallow cut," that would have likely disarmed Vader if not for his shoulder armor. It's arguably just as legitimate a hit as Luke's disarming, especially considering Vader was "enraged" (per your own admission) and Luke could only use one-hand given he had to hold onto the ledge. It's not a great showing any way you look at it, hence why I mentioned it, especially for a character you're saying is "vastly" more powerful than ANH Vader - that premise simply isn't reflected in this fight.

When they fought, he had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand.

The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.

Source: Darth Vader, Star Wars Shadows of the Empire

So, again, I'm asking the question: what about Vader's lightsaber skills strike you as noticeably beyond Revan's abilities to handle?

However, I believe that in a head-to-head duel Vader has a slight edge. However, the idea that Vader cannot win under any circumstances - let alone that Revan can ragdoll him - is laughable to me (this isn't directed at you).

I haven't seen a strong argument for Vader beating even Darth Revan yet, so maybe you could make a better case than Azronger. Otherwise, the idea that Vader's "far greater" than Exar Kun like Malak was, or that he's even above the combatants that Revan ragdolled in Shadow of Revan (i.e. Darth Marr, the Outlander, etc.), seem largely unjustifiable.

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#17 Posted by Deadlyeyes (129 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact Vader A.) couldn't kill Luke easily, B.) had actively attempted to defeat him, C.) overall considered Luke a "worthy opponent." As for the "shallow cut," that would have likely disarmed Vader if not for his shoulder armor. It's arguably just as legitimate a hit as Luke's disarming, especially considering Vader was "enraged" (per your own admission) and Luke could only use one-hand given he had to hold onto the ledge. It's not a great showing any way you look at it, hence why I mentioned it, especially for a character you're saying is "vastly" more powerful than ANH Vader - that premise simply isn't reflected in this fight.

Urm Vader was toying with Luke in ESB? He wanted to turn him to the darkside. What on earth makes you think he was going to kill him lol

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#18 Posted by Deadlyeyes (129 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: You keep bring up Vader's feats from the movies, which couldn't showcase his power properly due to the fact they were released during a time when they didn't have amazing special effects or fast paced action etc. We all know if Vader was in a prequel film, he would be wrecking shop. It would be like me concluding that the Emperor isn't that impressive as he was thrown down the shaft by a Vader with no hand while being damaged by lightning. I agree that Revan would win though. Also you bring up the TPM Maul vs Vader fight. First of that wasn't the real Maul. Second off, Maul was amped. Third, Vader still beat him. Also there is nothing wrong with struggling against TPM Maul in a duel considering he is a better duelist than Revan anyway.

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#19 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2522 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadlyeyes said:

@darthant66: You keep bring up Vader's feats from the movies, which couldn't showcase his power properly due to the fact they were released during a time when they didn't have amazing special effects or fast paced action etc. We all know if Vader was in a prequel film, he would be wrecking shop.

That's irrelevant to the point. My arguments have nothing to do with the choreography or special effects and everything to do with his power relations to other characters, which is wholly independent from real-life practicalities. Moreover, the films are canon regardless of when they were made, and the novelizations depict a fairly identical portrayal of events despite not being restricted in any fashion regardless. If Vader was in the prequel trilogy, his abilities would still roughly match ANH Obi-Wan, lose to ROTJ Luke, etc.

It would be like me concluding that the Emperor isn't that impressive as he was thrown down the shaft by a Vader with no hand while being damaged by lightning.

Except the fact the film is dated has no relevance to the argument. The Emperor indeed was thrown down a shaft by a Vader with no hand while being damaged by lightning. That happened. However, novelizations and supplementary material - not to mention the film itself - inform the scene with context to explain why the Emperor's impressive despite that.

Also you bring up the TPM Maul vs Vader fight. First of that wasn't the real Maul.

The author said his intention was for it to be the real Maul, it's marketed as the real Maul, and it's stated they "resurrected Maul." Not to mention it strikes me as unlikely that the Prophets could somehow create a fake Darth Maul that's somehow better than the real deal anyway.

Second off, Maul was amped.

No. If you're referring to the dark side nexus of the moon, then Vader would be comparably amped, so that's irrelevant.

Third, Vader still beat him.

After losing the actual fight, sure.

Also there is nothing wrong with struggling against TPM Maul in a duel considering he is a better duelist than Revan anyway.

There's more to the fight than strictly lightsaber dueling.

Urm Vader was toying with Luke in ESB? He wanted to turn him to the darkside. What on earth makes you think he was going to kill him lol

You're responding to a quote I posted but still making claims that directly contradict what Vader says in the quote. Note that I never said Vader tried to kill Luke. Again:

When they fought, he had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand.

The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.

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#20 Posted by Deadlyeyes (129 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: I can't quote you because I'm on mobile. Vader took advantage of his durability, which was how he won, he also broke Maul's saber staff as well. In the case of Old Ben, he definitely grew stronger in the force than ROTS Kenobi. There is absolutely no reason to believe AOTC Kenobi>Ben Kenobi at all. Also the New Hope novel confirms that Vader was winning the fight. You keep bringing up Vader's failings against Maul and Luke, but you are forgetting his other feats. Like when he took on 5 jedi at once in the Purge comic just after ROTS. One of the Jedi he speed blitzed, was a master with great accolades. He also stomped Celeste Morne, a jedi who Darth Krayt struggled against.

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#21 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2522 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadlyeyes:

Vader took advantage of his durability, which was how he won, he also broke Maul's saber staff as well.

Sure. However, that's after Maul bested him in the actual fight. We can analyze Maul's fight and conclude he has comparable or greater lightsaber skills, Force augmentation, etc. The fact Vader ultimately kills Maul really only tells us just what you said: he has greater durability because of his suit. That doesn't inform us of his power, especially relative to Maul.

In the case of Old Ben, he definitely grew stronger in the force than ROTS Kenobi.

I'm open to the idea his powers remained consistent, but Vader - who fought both ROTS and ANH Obi-Wan - internally and consistently thinks ANH Obi-Wan's powers diminished.

There is absolutely no reason to believe AOTC Kenobi>Ben Kenobi at all.

You're taking that out-of-context. I said Fightsaber, which is the only source suggesting Vader grew vastly between ANH and ESB, also says AOTC Obi-Wan > ANH Obi-Wan. In other words, I'm disputing the reliability of Fightsaber given it actually paints Vader in a terrible light.

Also the New Hope novel confirms that Vader was winning the fight.

It doesn't, no. That's not to say Vader doesn't have an advantage periodically throughout the fight, but when the fight ends neither combatant has the conclusive advantage. Obi-Wan even pulls off moves within the fight itself that Vader admits he couldn't replicate without dying in the Death Star novel adaptation.

You keep bringing up Vader's failings against Maul and Luke, but you are forgetting his other feats. Like when he took on 5 jedi at once in the Purge comic just after ROTS.

Except that's not particularly impressive given the context and opponent. Revan slaughtered armies of Sith on Korriban and the Star Forge respectively. If Vader has any edge on Revan, it'll be shown through the quality of some of the opponents, not through quantity. Revan wins the latter comparison every time.

One of the Jedi he speed blitzed, was a master with great accolades.

Which one?

He also stomped Celeste Morne, a jedi who Darth Krayt struggled against.

Except Krayt's on the brink of death in Legacy #30. Muur even notes he has "an infected and failing husk of a body." It's also likely Krayt's fight with the rakghouls beforehand taxed him significantly because of he parasites, given how his form greatly "deteriorated" after fighting Cade for a period of time. Still, I wouldn't say Krayt struggled until Morne began drawing off Muur. Regardless, beating Morne isn't relevant in a discussion about someone like Revan, who's canonically far more powerful than Karness Muur, let alone Celeste Morne, far before his prime.

Anyway, are you a sock account or new member?

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#22 Posted by ParagonNate (4614 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader, better in every important way

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#23 Posted by noah_ouellette (3475 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn: Like in every conceivable way yeah this has been done lmao.

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#24 Edited by Deadlyeyes (129 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66 said:

One of the Jedi he speed blitzed, was a master with great accolades.

Which one?

Ma'kis'shaalas: A Morgukai warrior and Nikto Jedi Master, he survived Order 66. Master Ma'kis'shaalas was known as a fanatical adherent to the Jedi Order, and a fierce combatant. He agreed to meet Master Shadday Potkin on Kessel as part of a plot to ensnare Darth Vader. Vader cut Ma'kis'shaalas down in combat.

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

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#25 Edited by Deadlyeyes (129 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66 said:

@deadlyeyes:

Anyway, are you a sock account or new member?

I was SamTheG, who joined relatively recently. Created a new account.

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#26 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2522 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66 said:

One of the Jedi he speed blitzed, was a master with great accolades.

Which one?

Ma'kis'shaalas: A Morgukai warrior and Nikto Jedi Master, he survived Order 66. Master Ma'kis'shaalas was known as a fanatical adherent to the Jedi Order, and a fierce combatant. He agreed to meet Master Shadday Potkin on Kessel as part of a plot to ensnare Darth Vader. Vader cut Ma'kis'shaalas down in combat.

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Not sure being "a fierce combatant" is "a great accolade." Consider every single dark Jedi of hundreds that Revan killed were "highly skilled lightsaber duelists" and "masters on the battlefield."

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#27 Posted by MYGOD101 (311 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader wins.

using ANH and ESB as a narrative to say vader isn't that impressive is ignorant, Since those movies were made back in like 1979 or something like that where technology isn't nearly as advance as they are now. using that logic even kylo Ren could beat Vader.

Vader wins mainly because he goes stronger through his anger basically like the incredible hulk, nothing Revan has can put Vader down completely since Vader has survived throw being bury alive, survived in spaced, and much more.

if we want to be technical, Vader tanked Darth Sidous's Force lightning...which is the strongest of all the siths.

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#28 Posted by Killerwasp (17289 posts) - - Show Bio

Prime Revan wins, not even a contest. His Force powers will allow such a big win over vader...

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#29 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

If anything I support Vader, but I would like to point out that a fraction of Sidious' Force Lightning killed Vader, and that the latter is not invincible- if Revan decapitates him he won't return.

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#30 Posted by MYGOD101 (311 posts) - - Show Bio

If anything I support Vader, but I would like to point out that a fraction of Sidious' Force Lightning killed Vader, and that the latter is not invincible- if Revan decapitates him he won't return.

do you have any proof that it was a Fraction of Sidious powers? I would Also like to point out, Vader died because he kinda let himself die he let go of his hate at the end and allowed himself to become the force like Obi-wan. Then there is the fact that Vader's Suit was made to be extremely weak against Force lightning, so regardless of how much we determined he used the fact is he tanked something that was super effective against him and not only that it was force lightning by the most powerful sith as well.

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#31 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader still...

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#32 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1220 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader still...

Come back to this thread when Vader can replicate Ziost.

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#33 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: come back to this thread when you don't lowball Vader.

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#34 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1220 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: come back to this thread when you don't lowball Vader.

Saying Vader can't drain an entire planet to the point where it's permanently affected is lowballing now?

Top kek.

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#35 Edited by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: a known Vader lowballer assumes something without clarification again?

Epic Kek.

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#36 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1220 posts) - - Show Bio

@thatoneguy2958: Dude you literally said Vader wins, to argue that you'd have to say he can drain an entire planet, something not remotely in his capacity, yet I'm "lowballing" by saying Revan wins, seems more like you're highballing.

2.I was actually a Vader wanker and only became a "known lowballer" after reassessing my opinion due to reading this CAV which shows just how limited Vader actually is and also how powerful Revan is. Vader's a solid Maul leveller but nothing beyond that.

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#37 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: I stated come back to this thread when you don't lowball Vader. Didn't say or name any other conditions.

You assumed I was addressing your ziost comment. I wasn't. Nor is there any feat that Vader has that replicates those exact conditions (nor any similar that I am aware of).

I tend to enjoy the fact that I have a decent basis of knowledge on quite a few star wars characters. I will admit I wank Nihilus at times....more often then I care to own upto...

But saying Vader is maul level is just beyond me.

I'll look over the thread.

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#38 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1220 posts) - - Show Bio

@thatoneguy2958: I stated come back to this thread when you don't lowball Vader. Didn't say or name any other conditions.

Forgive me for operating under the assumption you were referring to my opinion in this thread when you commented to stop lowballing Vader in this thread...

You assumed I was addressing your ziost comment. I wasn't. Nor is there any feat that Vader has that replicates those exact conditions (nor any similar that I am aware of).

Given Revan scales above Ziost wouldn't it then be implausible to argue Vader>Revan given he's performed no feats close to that level.

I tend to enjoy the fact that I have a decent basis of knowledge on quite a few star wars characters.

As do I.

I will admit I wank Nihilus at times....more often then I care to own upto…

Why Nihilus of all people?

But saying Vader is maul level is just beyond me.

Covered in the debate I linked.

I'll look over the thread.

Good man.

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#39 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: I'll respond in more detail once I've read the thread and done some more research, though I will say Nihilus has just been one of my favorite characters for years. Dunno why.

Also the good man comment seems a little condescending...though I don't think you meant it as such.

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#40 Posted by Laurus (1551 posts) - - Show Bio

While I feel Vader is seriously underrated sometimes, Revan takes this.

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#41 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Vader wins.

Your username perfectly sums up my reaction to this.

using ANH and ESB as a narrative to say vader isn't that impressive is ignorant, Since those movies were made back in like 1979 or something like that where technology isn't nearly as advance as they are now. using that logic even kylo Ren could beat Vader.

They still happened and are perfectly viable feats and are consistent with Vader's abilities. Also no Kylo couldn't beat Vader with those feats lol. No canon character compares to Legends characters.

Vader wins mainly because he goes stronger through his anger basically like the incredible hulk, nothing Revan has can put Vader down completely since Vader has survived throw being bury alive, survived in spaced, and much more.

Yet his Force reserves got beaten out of him by Luke and his hand was chopped off. Not buying Revan can't put him down when a much weaker foe has.

If anything it's Vader that can't put Revan down given the latter has tanked blasts which would destroy everything within a 1km radius.

if we want to be technical, Vader tanked Darth Sidous's Force lightning...which is the strongest of all the siths.

Vader being amped by "light side super energy" [er George Lucas and charging up his attack for minutes beforehand and still dying isn't an impressive feat.

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#42 Edited by Wolfrazer (16051 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: I'm a tad bit lost here, how does Revan scale above Ziost when he's never done a feat like that either? If we're going by what a character has done or hasn't, then I'm even more lost for debating characters because certain characters haven't done specific X so how do they scale to Y?

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#43 Edited by MYGOD101 (311 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:

@mygod101:

Vader wins.

Your username perfectly sums up my reaction to this.

using ANH and ESB as a narrative to say vader isn't that impressive is ignorant, Since those movies were made back in like 1979 or something like that where technology isn't nearly as advance as they are now. using that logic even kylo Ren could beat Vader.

They still happened and are perfectly viable feats and are consistent with Vader's abilities. Also no Kylo couldn't beat Vader with those feats lol. No canon character compares to Legends characters.

Vader wins mainly because he goes stronger through his anger basically like the incredible hulk, nothing Revan has can put Vader down completely since Vader has survived throw being bury alive, survived in spaced, and much more.

Yet his Force reserves got beaten out of him by Luke and his hand was chopped off. Not buying Revan can't put him down when a much weaker foe has.

If anything it's Vader that can't put Revan down given the latter has tanked blasts which would destroy everything within a 1km radius.

if we want to be technical, Vader tanked Darth Sidous's Force lightning...which is the strongest of all the siths.

Vader being amped by "light side super energy" [er George Lucas and charging up his attack for minutes beforehand and still dying isn't an impressive feat.

Well....That who I am MYGOD.

I you do realize that is helping my cast here right? You said and I quote "His force reserves got beaten out of him by Luke"

so, that actually helps vader because it shows his durability even while in an exhausted stat was able to overpower Darth Sidous the strongest Sith after Vader.

You do Agree that Sidious is much more powerful than Reven right? secondly, Vader let himself die he let go of his hate which was keeping him alive for so long because he completed the prophecy. nothing you said erase the fact that Vader was made to be extremely weak against Sidous Force lightning or the fact that Darth Sidous has the strongest force lightning.

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#44 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: after rereading some things, Vader wouldn't need to repeat anything from ziost in order to beat revan. Revan didn't do anything on ziost....so that's some faulty logic.

Sidious being the most powerful sith ever and Vader being 80% of his strength should put him comfortably above revan. As well as the emporer knowing that Vader could kill him.

Gonna stand by Vader winning.

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#45 Posted by Finalbeta (129 posts) - - Show Bio

Revan should take it

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#46 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Well....That who I am MYGOD.

I you do realize that is helping my cast here right? You said and I quote "His force reserves got beaten out of him by Luke"

Yeah they were and I was using it to point out Vader isn't nearly as durable as you make out.

so, that actually helps vader because it shows his durability even while in an exhausted stat was able to overpower Darth Sidous the strongest Sith after Vader.

Dear Lord. Vader took Sidious's lightning when he was amped by "light side super energy" and had charged up his energy for minutes beforehand.

Plus he didn't tank it. He died right aftterwards from the lightning lmao.

You do Agree that Sidious is much more powerful than Reven right?

Yes.

secondly, Vader let himself die he let go of his hate which was keeping him alive for so long because he completed the prophecy. nothing you said erase the fact that Vader was made to be extremely weak against Sidous Force lightning or the fact that Darth Sidous has the strongest force lightning.

Yes it does. Vader being amped to the high heavens makes the feat utterly useless in an actual debate.

As for your point about Vader only dying because he let go of his hate that's false. Numerous sources say Vader was killed by The Emperor's lightning. Plus the fact that you say Vader's hate is what allowed him to tank the Emperor's lightning is truly one of the most laughable arguments I've heard. He was using light side energy in that scene per numerous sources.

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#47 Posted by MYGOD101 (311 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Well....That who I am MYGOD.

I you do realize that is helping my cast here right? You said and I quote "His force reserves got beaten out of him by Luke"

Yeah they were and I was using it to point out Vader isn't nearly as durable as you make out.

so, that actually helps vader because it shows his durability even while in an exhausted stat was able to overpower Darth Sidous the strongest Sith after Vader.

Dear Lord. Vader took Sidious's lightning when he was amped by "light side super energy" and had charged up his energy for minutes beforehand.

Plus he didn't tank it. He died right aftterwards from the lightning lmao.

You do Agree that Sidious is much more powerful than Reven right?

Yes.

secondly, Vader let himself die he let go of his hate which was keeping him alive for so long because he completed the prophecy. nothing you said erase the fact that Vader was made to be extremely weak against Sidous Force lightning or the fact that Darth Sidous has the strongest force lightning.

Yes it does. Vader being amped to the high heavens makes the feat utterly useless in an actual debate.

As for your point about Vader only dying because he let go of his hate that's false. Numerous sources say Vader was killed by The Emperor's lightning. Plus the fact that you say Vader's hate is what allowed him to tank the Emperor's lightning is truly one of the most laughable arguments I've heard. He was using light side energy in that scene per numerous sources.

you and I both know all that you said is irrelevant.

the fact is Vader Beat Sidious the most powerful sith to ever exist. On top of that, Vader was 80% of that same Sith, As well had Sidious scared of him to the point he had to put him on a leash to make sure that he wouldn't be defeated.

Revan can't hit Vader with enough force to put him down. I think it is fair to say Vader wins.

Right now you are arguing via appeal to emotion. acting as if Vader has don't nothing.... impressive, I am just reminding you that Vader defeated Sidious.

if you can't accept that Vader beat him then you should just stop debating because all your arguments are just going to be bias towards the other side.

thank you and GG.

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#48 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

you and I both know all that you said is irrelevant.

Glad to know I'm wasting my time with a moronic idiot who accuses me of bias despite me having Vader as my 3rd favourite SW character (above Revan btw) and absolutely loving him. I accepted a long time ago Vader isn't a top tier. You should to rather than just ignoring everything I said.

the fact is Vader Beat Sidious the most powerful sith to ever exist.

Which I already explained the context to which you completely ignored. This isn't an argument. You need to back up your points with evidence and explain why Vader being amped by light side super energy and his love for his son along with powering himself up for minutes and barely killing The Emperor is more impressive than anything Revan has shown. The feat is totally unquanitifiable as to how impressive it makes Vader and why you expect me to take it seriously is beyond me. But of course according to you my evidence is "irrelevant" and I'm "bias towards the other side".

Top tier debating.

On top of that, Vader was 80% of that same Sith, As well had Sidious scared of him to the point he had to put him on a leash to make sure that he wouldn't be defeated.

Sidious was scared of everyone below him so I don't see why him being scared of Vader is particularly relevant.

As for the 80% quote I already addressed it in another thread so I'll copy paste my arguments here:

Unquantifiable wasn't the right word more like ambiguous as to whether Vader actually has 80% of Sidious's power. Lucas uses the word "maybe" in that sentence indicating he's not exactly certain and the point of the statement wasn't even meant to hype up Vader but rather establish that he's not as strong as The Emperor. Lucas pulling out a random figure on the spot to establish that Vader wasn't as strong as Sidious is a laughable argument to use in a debate given the context.

Furthermore a Vader that was ridiculously amped by "light side super energy" who had charged up his energies for several minutes beforehand was dealt a mortal wound by lightning that had been conjured in a second by an unprepared Sidious. When this is how large the disparity between them is it makes it kinda hard for me to buy into the whole 80% argument.

Revan can't hit Vader with enough force to put him down. I think it is fair to say Vader wins.

Given Vader was stalemated by Ben Kenobi who is canonically weaker than his ROTS iteration I can't really see a case for Vader beating Revan being made.

Right now you are arguing via appeal to emotion. acting as if Vader has don't nothing.... impressive, I am just reminding you that Vader defeated Sidious.

I'm not appealing to emotion just rather educating you on why Vader isn't close to Sidious something which is supported by a lot of the mythos.

Also I never said Vader doesn't have impressive feats but rather he's just a lot weaker than you make him out to be.

if you can't accept that Vader beat him then you should just stop debating because all your arguments are just going to be bias towards the other side.

I should stop debating? You're the one who should stop debating. At least I don't ignore arguments and say they're irrelevant based on nothing.

Also pulling the bias card never works.

thank you and GG.

Concession accepted.

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#49 Edited by MYGOD101 (311 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:

@mygod101:

you and I both know all that you said is irrelevant.

Glad to know I'm wasting my time with a moronic idiot who accuses me of bias despite me having Vader as my 3rd favourite SW character (above Revan btw) and absolutely loving him. I accepted a long time ago Vader isn't a top tier. You should to rather than just ignoring everything I said.

the fact is Vader Beat Sidious the most powerful sith to ever exist.

Which I already explained the context to which you completely ignored. This isn't an argument. You need to back up your points with evidence and explain why Vader being amped by light side super energy and his love for his son along with powering himself up for minutes and barely killing The Emperor is more impressive than anything Revan has shown. The feat is totally unquanitifiable as to how impressive it makes Vader and why you expect me to take it seriously is beyond me. But of course according to you my evidence is "irrelevant" and I'm "bias towards the other side".

Top tier debating.

On top of that, Vader was 80% of that same Sith, As well had Sidious scared of him to the point he had to put him on a leash to make sure that he wouldn't be defeated.

Sidious was scared of everyone below him so I don't see why him being scared of Vader is particularly relevant.

As for the 80% quote I already addressed it in another thread so I'll copy paste my arguments here:

Unquantifiable wasn't the right word more like ambiguous as to whether Vader actually has 80% of Sidious's power. Lucas uses the word "maybe" in that sentence indicating he's not exactly certain and the point of the statement wasn't even meant to hype up Vader but rather establish that he's not as strong as The Emperor. Lucas pulling out a random figure on the spot to establish that Vader wasn't as strong as Sidious is a laughable argument to use in a debate given the context.

Furthermore a Vader that was ridiculously amped by "light side super energy" who had charged up his energies for several minutes beforehand was dealt a mortal wound by lightning that had been conjured in a second by an unprepared Sidious. When this is how large the disparity between them is it makes it kinda hard for me to buy into the whole 80% argument.

Revan can't hit Vader with enough force to put him down. I think it is fair to say Vader wins.

Given Vader was stalemated by Ben Kenobi who is canonically weaker than his ROTS iteration I can't really see a case for Vader beating Revan being made.

Right now you are arguing via appeal to emotion. acting as if Vader has don't nothing.... impressive, I am just reminding you that Vader defeated Sidious.

I'm not appealing to emotion just rather educating you on why Vader isn't close to Sidious something which is supported by a lot of the mythos.

Also I never said Vader doesn't have impressive feats but rather he's just a lot weaker than you make him out to be.

if you can't accept that Vader beat him then you should just stop debating because all your arguments are just going to be bias towards the other side.

I should stop debating? You're the one who should stop debating. At least I don't ignore arguments and say they're irrelevant based on nothing.

Also pulling the bias card never works.

thank you and GG.

Concession accepted.

You didn't have to name call me, All you had to do is disagree and that would be that.

I expected better of you, is this how people on here treat new members when they disagree with them? come on be an adult here don't insult people.

Your post irrelevant, because like I said Vader still beat Sidious, who is the strongest Sith. doesn't matter what amp he got the point is he did it. as well as being 80% of Sidious power so yeah.

you have giving nothing that Revan can beat vader you even tried to use a ANH which clearly isn't going to the best feats since it was made in a time where Technology was poor. you were being bias because you were using outdated production and acting like it was the limit of Vader's power.

GG I expect more from you moving forward, Don't worry I believe in you just be nicer to members just learning how things are on here. vader wins here

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#50 Posted by Deadlyeyes (129 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: Also I find that ludicrous that such source would state a padawan Anakin and an average master level Obi Wan are above ANH Vader and Old Ben. Same with the outdated garbage quote about Ben Kenobi being a level 6 force user, and Vader only being 4. Vader at that point had killed tons of jedi, and was responsible for their near extinction. While Ben Kenobi has been doing jackshit on Tatooine for years