Revan vs Vader

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Posted by NotZiggy (15 posts) 7 months, 10 days ago

Poll: Revan vs Vader (78 votes)

Revan 50%
Vader 50%

Peaks for both

Fighting on a wide invisible platform on the ocean.

Who wins and why?

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#51 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: Also I find that ludicrous that such source would state a padawan Anakin and an average master level Obi Wan are above ANH Vader and Old Ben. Same with the outdated garbage quote about Ben Kenobi being a level 6 force user, and Vader only being 4. Vader at that point had killed tons of jedi, and was responsible for their near extinction. While Ben Kenobi has been doing jackshit on Tatooine for years

Largely agreed. That's why I argued the source isn't credible.

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#52 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101

You didn't have to name call me, All you had to do is disagree and that would be that.

Forgive me I wasn't in the greatest mood and you ignoring my arguments pissed me off.

I expected better of you, is this how people on here treat new members when they disagree with them? come on be an adult here don't insult people.

I normally don't but it's kind of annoying when you just throw back down the same points after I've already debunked them (you did the same thing in this post btw).

Your post irrelevant, because like I said Vader still beat Sidious, who is the strongest Sith. doesn't matter what amp he got the point is he did it.

The point is he can't do it under any other circumstances so it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. Using feats from an amped Vader is an incredibly weak argument.

as well as being 80% of Sidious power so yeah.

Which I already debunked (see my last post) but hey let's repeat arguments because screw actually listening to the person you're debating am I right?

you have giving nothing that Revan can beat vader you even tried to use a ANH which clearly isn't going to the best feats since it was made in a time where Technology was poor. you were being bias because you were using outdated production and acting like it was the limit of Vader's power.

The thing is though technology being poor doesn't stop Vader from stomping Obi Wan it just limits the choreography. If Vader was truly intended to be as powerful as you suggest then why didn't he stomp Obi Wan?

Furthermore there are numerous other examples throughout the EU which showcase Vader not being top tier such as being ragdolled by Galen, losing to TPM Darth Maul ect ect.

GG I expect more from you moving forward, Don't worry I believe in you just be nicer to members just learning how things are on here. vader wins here

This is probably going to be my last response to you given your complete and total disregard for my points as well as accusing me of bias despite me not being biased.

Either address my arguments or don't respond.

Take your pick.

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#53 Edited by deactivated-5d446f1367ece (295 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Edited by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:

@mygod101

You didn't have to name call me, All you had to do is disagree and that would be that.

Forgive me I wasn't in the greatest mood and you ignoring my arguments pissed me off.

I expected better of you, is this how people on here treat new members when they disagree with them? come on be an adult here don't insult people.

I normally don't but it's kind of annoying when you just throw back down the same points after I've already debunked them (you did the same thing in this post btw).

Your post irrelevant, because like I said Vader still beat Sidious, who is the strongest Sith. doesn't matter what amp he got the point is he did it.

The point is he can't do it under any other circumstances so it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. Using feats from an amped Vader is an incredibly weak argument.

as well as being 80% of Sidious power so yeah.

Which I already debunked (see my last post) but hey let's repeat arguments because screw actually listening to the person you're debating am I right?

you have giving nothing that Revan can beat vader you even tried to use a ANH which clearly isn't going to the best feats since it was made in a time where Technology was poor. you were being bias because you were using outdated production and acting like it was the limit of Vader's power.

The thing is though technology being poor doesn't stop Vader from stomping Obi Wan it just limits the choreography. If Vader was truly intended to be as powerful as you suggest then why didn't he stomp Obi Wan?

Furthermore there are numerous other examples throughout the EU which showcase Vader not being top tier such as being ragdolled by Galen, losing to TPM Darth Maul ect ect.

GG I expect more from you moving forward, Don't worry I believe in you just be nicer to members just learning how things are on here. vader wins here

This is probably going to be my last response to you given your complete and total disregard for my points as well as accusing me of bias despite me not being biased.

Either address my arguments or don't respond.

Take your pick.

I did addressed your argument. You said Because obi-wan made Vader Struggle(Basically saying Vader can't be any stronger or implying that is his limits). when it all boils down, you are being bias when you said: "he only beat Sidious because light-side power up. that is a logical Fallacy or False dilemma.

you act like Vader being 80% of Sidious at least has nothing to do with him being able to survive and beat Sidious, then pointing it down to one option. Vader was taking it easy on Obi-wan, unless you think a weakened obi-wan is Sidious level? that is hardly an argument or a rebuttal at that; Vader wasn't going to make the same mistakes as he did the last time. he even commented saying: your powers are weak old man. so I fail to see how obi-wan gave Vader a hard time when it was the opposite. this is the guy who Crippled him for life, and you are pretending like Vader couldn't have just been cautious since he is more strategic now then he was back then.

That maul was a more amped maul then he was in TPM, and Vader still killed him. isn't Galen a Dark side Luke? if so I fail to see how that connects to Vader losing the Revan....Galen would ragdoll Revan as well but At this point that would just be me assuming since Galen was as strong as Sidious if not stronger but okay.

anyways, Just agree to disagree but you were being bias here in the debate.

Thanks for Replying GG

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#55 Posted by Bayman007 (2498 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader

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#56 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

I know I said I wouldn't respond but sue me. The amount of terrible points which need to be debunked brought me back into this discussion.

I did addressed your argument. You said Because obi-wan made Vader Struggle(Basically saying Vader can't be any stronger or implying that is his limits).

Pretty much yeah. His limits as of ANH are being stalemated by a post prime Obi Wan. Not a glowing track record.

when it all boils down, you are being bias when you said: "he only beat Sidious because light-side power up. that is a logical Fallacy or False dilemma.

A logical fallacy is a flaw in someone's reasoning but you haven't actually articulated why my reasoning has flaws thus rendering your statements mere words with nothing to back them up.

Also I've never used a false dilemma lmao. I haven't made any of my points an either/or situation. All of my points hace reasoning behind them and help explain why Vader was stalemated by Obi Wan despite being able to kill the Emperor. I haven't made this point into an either/or situation rendering my arguments not a false dilemma.

Attempting to make my arguments look bad is a terrible strategy when you haven't proven Vader's comparability to The Emperor throughout the entirity of this debate which is your main point btw. nless you have a better solution to explain Vader being stalemated by a post prime Obi Wan I'm afraid him being above Revan is quite honestly ridiculous.

you act like Vader being 80% of Sidious at least has nothing to do with him being able to survive and beat Sidious, then pointing it down to one option.

Well yeah duh that "option" is the only canon evidence given as to why Vader managed to defeat The Emperor. I also already debunked the 80% quote which you completely ignored.

Here are the arguments copy pasted again for you:

Lucas uses the word "maybe" in that sentence where he says Vader is 80% of Sidious's power indicating he's not exactly certain and the point of the statement wasn't even meant to hype up Vader but rather establish that he's not as strong as The Emperor. Lucas pulling out a random figure on the spot to establish that Vader wasn't as strong as Sidious is a laughable argument to use in a debate given the context.

Furthermore a Vader that was ridiculously amped by "light side super energy" who had charged up his energies for several minutes beforehand was dealt a mortal wound by lightning that had been conjured in a second by an unprepared Sidious. When this is how large the disparity between them is it makes it kinda hard for me to buy into the whole 80% argument.

Just as an additional argument to the above points Lucas also says Vader was like Maul or Dooku indicating he wasn't as strong as The Emperor as Maul and Dooku are both ragdoll fodder for Sidious.

Vader was taking it easy on Obi-wan, unless you think a weakened obi-wan is Sidious level?

I find it funny how you called me out for using a false dilemma earlier but this is an actual example of a false dilemma. You're attempting to make it seem like there are only two conclusions we can draw which are:

A) Vader is Sidious tier and was holding back on Obi Wan.

or

B) Vader wasn't holding back and that a post prime Obi Wan is Sidious tier.

The obvious conclusion would be the first option if these were the only two options however there is a third option:

C) Vader simply isn't on Sidious's level due to him killing The Emperor having context and him having 80% of Sidious's power being likely false.

Thanks for acting like a hypocrite by calling me out for laying out a false dilemma (something I didn't actually do) despite doing so yourself. It really makes arguing against you easier.

Also Vader didn't take it easy on Obi Wan lmao. There is no evidence for this and Vader being about to kill Obi Wan before the latter became one with the Force kinda shows the opposite.

that is hardly an argument or a rebuttal at that; Vader wasn't going to make the same mistakes as he did the last time.

If Vader truly was Sidious level he should have simply ragdolled Obi Wan given a prime Obi Wan was more or less equal to Maul who was ragdolled by a pre prime Sidious. While Vader was cautious the showing still proves he's more or less on Obi Wan's level and definitely not comparable to Sidious.

he even commented saying: your powers are weak old man.

Vader's arrogance isn't actually proof of anything given afterwards he duelled Obi Wan for a minute without gaining a significant advantage and later after the fight said Obi Wan was his equal.

so I fail to see how obi-wan gave Vader a hard time when it was the opposite.

Yeah definitely. Vader was in total control and easily dominated Obi Wan...

Oh wait. He didn't. See previous rebuttals.

this is the guy who Crippled him for life, and you are pretending like Vader couldn't have just been cautious since he is more strategic now then he was back then.

See above.

That maul was a more amped maul then he was in TPM, and Vader still killed him.

Maul wasn't amped. The entire point of the story was that it was TPM Maul who had returned and was "Resurrected" which is actually the name of the comic. I fail to see how Maul was any stronger than he was in TPM.

isn't Galen a Dark side Luke?

No...

if so I fail to see how that connects to Vader losing the Revan....

It doesn't. It just connects to Vader you know not being on Sidious's level which is what your whole argument is based on.

Galen would ragdoll Revan as well but At this point that would just be me assuming since Galen was as strong as Sidious if not stronger but okay.

Galen wouldn't ragdoll Revan. Also Galen was on the losing end of his fight with Sidious and was described as "ultimately no match for The Emperor" indicating inferiority and seeing as he could ragdoll Vader this isn't looking to good for the Vader=Sidious arguments.

anyways, Just agree to disagree but you were being bias here in the debate.

Pullling the bias card never works and only helps distract from the debate itself. And as I've already explained I love Vader but I accepted a long time ago he wasn't on Sidious's level and so should you. It's part of the tragedy of his character.

Thanks for Replying GG

Please stop wasting my time. Unless you're going to bring up new points please don't respond as you keep on reiterating previous points which I already addressed.

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#57 Posted by Uallhoes (304 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader can beat any sith from bane to nihilus,with that shoulder armor limitation at that...,this poll is hilarious

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#58 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@thatoneguy2958: Arkham addressed the 80% thing and if you'd bothered to read the CAV you'd know Revan is far more powerful than the being who performed Ziost so yes Vader has to be capable of replicating it to beat Revan.

@wolfrazer: Read the CAV I linked. Essentially the argument is Novel Revan and Vitiate were peers, both grew in lockstep over their 300 year mental war showing parity between Revan and Vitiate, the latter of whom was far less powerful in spirit form and thus far less powerful than Revan yet still performed Ziost.

Vitiate>Revan>>>Spirit Vitiate>Decimating Ziost.

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#59 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

I know I said I wouldn't respond but sue me. The amount of terrible points which need to be debunked brought me back into this discussion.

I did addressed your argument. You said Because obi-wan made Vader Struggle(Basically saying Vader can't be any stronger or implying that is his limits).

Pretty much yeah. His limits as of ANH are being stalemated by a post prime Obi Wan. Not a glowing track record.

when it all boils down, you are being bias when you said: "he only beat Sidious because light-side power up. that is a logical Fallacy or False dilemma.

A logical fallacy is a flaw in someone's reasoning but you haven't actually articulated why my reasoning has flaws thus rendering your statements mere words with nothing to back them up.

Also I've never used a false dilemma lmao. I haven't made any of my points an either/or situation. All of my points hace reasoning behind them and help explain why Vader was stalemated by Obi Wan despite being able to kill the Emperor. I haven't made this point into an either/or situation rendering my arguments not a false dilemma.

Attempting to make my arguments look bad is a terrible strategy when you haven't proven Vader's comparability to The Emperor throughout the entirity of this debate which is your main point btw. nless you have a better solution to explain Vader being stalemated by a post prime Obi Wan I'm afraid him being above Revan is quite honestly ridiculous.

you act like Vader being 80% of Sidious at least has nothing to do with him being able to survive and beat Sidious, then pointing it down to one option.

Well yeah duh that "option" is the only canon evidence given as to why Vader managed to defeat The Emperor. I also already debunked the 80% quote which you completely ignored.

Here are the arguments copy pasted again for you:

Lucas uses the word "maybe" in that sentence where he says Vader is 80% of Sidious's power indicating he's not exactly certain and the point of the statement wasn't even meant to hype up Vader but rather establish that he's not as strong as The Emperor. Lucas pulling out a random figure on the spot to establish that Vader wasn't as strong as Sidious is a laughable argument to use in a debate given the context.

Furthermore a Vader that was ridiculously amped by "light side super energy" who had charged up his energies for several minutes beforehand was dealt a mortal wound by lightning that had been conjured in a second by an unprepared Sidious. When this is how large the disparity between them is it makes it kinda hard for me to buy into the whole 80% argument.

Just as an additional argument to the above points Lucas also says Vader was like Maul or Dooku indicating he wasn't as strong as The Emperor as Maul and Dooku are both ragdoll fodder for Sidious.

Vader was taking it easy on Obi-wan, unless you think a weakened obi-wan is Sidious level?

I find it funny how you called me out for using a false dilemma earlier but this is an actual example of a false dilemma. You're attempting to make it seem like there are only two conclusions we can draw which are:

A) Vader is Sidious tier and was holding back on Obi Wan.

or

B) Vader wasn't holding back and that a post prime Obi Wan is Sidious tier.

The obvious conclusion would be the first option if these were the only two options however there is a third option:

C) Vader simply isn't on Sidious's level due to him killing The Emperor having context and him having 80% of Sidious's power being likely false.

Thanks for acting like a hypocrite by calling me out for laying out a false dilemma (something I didn't actually do) despite doing so yourself. It really makes arguing against you easier.

Also Vader didn't take it easy on Obi Wan lmao. There is no evidence for this and Vader being about to kill Obi Wan before the latter became one with the Force kinda shows the opposite.

that is hardly an argument or a rebuttal at that; Vader wasn't going to make the same mistakes as he did the last time.

If Vader truly was Sidious level he should have simply ragdolled Obi Wan given a prime Obi Wan was more or less equal to Maul who was ragdolled by a pre prime Sidious. While Vader was cautious the showing still proves he's more or less on Obi Wan's level and definitely not comparable to Sidious.

he even commented saying: your powers are weak old man.

Vader's arrogance isn't actually proof of anything given afterwards he duelled Obi Wan for a minute without gaining a significant advantage and later after the fight said Obi Wan was his equal.

so I fail to see how obi-wan gave Vader a hard time when it was the opposite.

Yeah definitely. Vader was in total control and easily dominated Obi Wan...

Oh wait. He didn't. See previous rebuttals.

this is the guy who Crippled him for life, and you are pretending like Vader couldn't have just been cautious since he is more strategic now then he was back then.

See above.

That maul was a more amped maul then he was in TPM, and Vader still killed him.

Maul wasn't amped. The entire point of the story was that it was TPM Maul who had returned and was "Resurrected" which is actually the name of the comic. I fail to see how Maul was any stronger than he was in TPM.

isn't Galen a Dark side Luke?

No...

if so I fail to see how that connects to Vader losing the Revan....

It doesn't. It just connects to Vader you know not being on Sidious's level which is what your whole argument is based on.

Galen would ragdoll Revan as well but At this point that would just be me assuming since Galen was as strong as Sidious if not stronger but okay.

Galen wouldn't ragdoll Revan. Also Galen was on the losing end of his fight with Sidious and was described as "ultimately no match for The Emperor" indicating inferiority and seeing as he could ragdoll Vader this isn't looking to good for the Vader=Sidious arguments.

anyways, Just agree to disagree but you were being bias here in the debate.

Pullling the bias card never works and only helps distract from the debate itself. And as I've already explained I love Vader but I accepted a long time ago he wasn't on Sidious's level and so should you. It's part of the tragedy of his character.

Thanks for Replying GG

Please stop wasting my time. Unless you're going to bring up new points please don't respond as you keep on reiterating previous points which I already addressed.

well, sue me I'll reply for the LOL's.

Obi-wan wasn't Vader's limit, he wasn't even trying in that fight. he didn't use any force powers against him he just had a pure lightsaber duel. obi-wan was on the defense the whole time so I don't see how Vader was just being "arrogant".

Well...the fact that Obi-wan felt there was no other way to win and just committed suicide says he was pretty much losing that fight so I don't see how they were "equals".

No, I am saying it was a combination of several things that Vader was able to kill Sidious. him being durable enough to handle the force lightning, and being 80% of Sidious all of that falls together.

I am not disagreeing with him not being on Sidious level hence why I said 80%.

LMFAO....really? so, Obi-wan lasting a minute is why you are acting like Vader isn't anything special? Count Dooku couldn't even defeat Obi-wan in a minute time...you are implying the gap difference from Count Dooku is much higher than ANH Vader and Obi-wan since according to you they are "Equals".

Obi-wan fighting style is to out last people with his unbreakable defense. Defeating Obi-wan in a whole minute is a new record If I am not mistaken; Anakin on Mustafa couldn't even do that.

So...you are bringing up Star killer a video game character that you the player play as? Vader Train Galen body to take as much punishment as he physically could.....I don't see the point in bring him up also that is non canon but okay.

You asked me to brink up something new to the debate besides reiterating the same arguments....fair enough.

I just going to get to the point why Revan loses, Because he isn't Physically strong or imposing he isn't as resilience as Vader, isn't quite on Vader's level in dueling and so forth. I only see Raven being better in Force abilities that basically is it.

Can you cite a source where George Lucas said those words exactly that Vader "Maybe" 80% of Sidious?

Since you are using force unleashed games to debate... I think it is fair to say that Vader also, in game Tanked Galen's Force lightning who had combined it with actual lightning against Vader and Struck him several times with it.

you didn't debunked all my points just only a couple if even that but okay.

GG

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#60 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: that's some funky circular logic. Vader has to be able to replicate the ziost feat in order to defeat revan...sorry, no.

Otherwise that would mean each other character in star wars would have to replicate feat A to beat character B because they beat character C who performed feat A.....

The emporer as early as DE was stated multiple times to be the most powerful sith and dark side master.

Vitiate was not enough of a threat that his spirit had to be sealed by the spirits of multiple Jedi....

Revan beating vitiate is, yes a feat for revan, but also a statement of how weak vitiate is by comparison to sidious.

I still stand by what I stated earlier. Vader wins.

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#61 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the ritual vitiate performed on ziost essentially put him at the same level of strength as when he had performed that same ritual on nathema?

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#62 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@thatoneguy2958: Ziost was not a ritual, and if Vader cannot perform anything close to Ziost which he can't, no he is not beating Revan.

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#63 Posted by Kilius (1673 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Vader didn't use the Force on Kenobi because Kenobi would have been powerful enough to counter it, same with RotJ Luke. Vader used the Force on ESB Luke even though he wasn't trying to kill him.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/ben-kenobi-respect-thread/98064/

Read the combat skill section of that link and you can see in the Death Star novel portion that while Vader was winning it took every bit of his skill and couldn't afford even the tiniest waver in his concentration. And it's pointed out in numerous sources, no less the movie itself that Kenobi was both out-of-practice and less powerful than he was in his prime.

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#64 Edited by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@mygod101:

Vader didn't use the Force on Kenobi because Kenobi would have been powerful enough to counter it, same with RotJ Luke. Vader used the Force on ESB Luke even though he wasn't trying to kill him.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/ben-kenobi-respect-thread/98064/

Read the combat skill section of that link and you can see in the Death Star novel portion that while Vader was winning it took every bit of his skill and couldn't afford even the tiniest waver in his concentration. And it's pointed out in numerous sources, no less the movie itself that Kenobi was both out-of-practice and less powerful than he was in his prime.

Exactly by how much was he less powerful than his prime?

I can say he is 1% weaker and that would still be a true statement that he is weaker than his prime.

like I said the fight still lasted basically a 1min who has beaten obi-wan in that amount of time in duel? not even count Dooku has defeated obi-wan in that amount of time.

Also, That is assumption nothing concrete, we saw that Force grip or Choke was able to take prime Obi-wan....so there isn't nothing that says while he has been out of practice that he would stop Vader's Go to move.

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#65 Posted by ginman333 (3097 posts) - - Show Bio

ends in awkward sex

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#66 Posted by Kilius (1673 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Exactly by how much was he less powerful than his prime?

By a noticeable nonnegligible amount.

I can say he is 1% weaker and that would still be a true statement that he is weaker than his prime.

I think after being labeled along with Vader "shadows of their former selves". is indicative of them being well more than 1% past their prime.

like I said the fight still lasted basically a 1min who has beaten obi-wan in that amount of time in duel?

You are trying to equivalate a post-prime Kenobi to RotS Kenobi which for obvious reasons doesn't work. Moreover Kenobi wasn't defeated; he voluntarily yielded:

"During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields."- Fightsaber

Also, That is assumption nothing concrete,

Vader was pressed to his limits as per Death Star. If he could have eased the presser by using the Force he would have.

Force grip or Choke was able to take prime Obi-wan....so there isn't nothing that says while he has been out of practice that he would stop Vader's Go to move.

Kenobi can only be choked at an opportune moment, like when his arms where force upward from Dooku breaking the bladelock, where he couldn't put them in a defensive posture and Ben wasn't giving him any; Vader noted he could even spar the concentration to warn the stormtroopers not to interfere. Prime Kenobi has defended himself form Force blasts from KF Vader, someone more powerful than Dooku. Plot aside, I think we can safely say Dooku(or Maul) choking him was something that can't be done on a whim.

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#67 Posted by AotD (660 posts) - - Show Bio

Revan wins, Vader`s only chance is backstabbing him and that`s the field where he`s really good.

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#68 Edited by jagernutt (17805 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't Sideous considered the most powerful sith of all time? And Vader was 80% of Sideous power. That should mean Vader>Revan.

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#69 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@mygod101:

Exactly by how much was he less powerful than his prime?

By a noticeable nonnegligible amount.

I can say he is 1% weaker and that would still be a true statement that he is weaker than his prime.

I think after being labeled along with Vader "shadows of their former selves". is indicative of them being well more than 1% past their prime.

like I said the fight still lasted basically a 1min who has beaten obi-wan in that amount of time in duel?

You are trying to equivalate a post-prime Kenobi to RotS Kenobi which for obvious reasons doesn't work. Moreover Kenobi wasn't defeated; he voluntarily yielded:

"During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields."- Fightsaber

Also, That is assumption nothing concrete,

Vader was pressed to his limits as per Death Star. If he could have eased the presser by using the Force he would have.

Force grip or Choke was able to take prime Obi-wan....so there isn't nothing that says while he has been out of practice that he would stop Vader's Go to move.

Kenobi can only be choked at an opportune moment, like when his arms where force upward from Dooku breaking the bladelock, where he couldn't put them in a defensive posture and Ben wasn't giving him any; Vader noted he could even spar the concentration to warn the stormtroopers not to interfere. Prime Kenobi has defended himself form Force blasts from KF Vader, someone more powerful than Dooku. Plot aside, I think we can safely say Dooku(or Maul) choking him was something that can't be done on a whim.

Still doesn't change the fact that Vader was at least 80% of Sidious.

even if we say Vader is 78% of Sidious that still far above Revan force powers. the fact that Sidious made it so Vader couldn't move in his suit, couldn't even hold his light saber above his head, and finally made it so his suit was weak against light and can be turned off by a switch should count for something.

Vader has force rage so again, I don't see how Revan can win this fight his force ability isn't nearly as good as Sidious abilities....people act like Vader is slow but truth is everyone who has been faster then him has either given up or just accepted death when facing him. in new canon Vader survived falling in lava with force shield and he can do force lightning as well just not how Sidious does his. regardless I don't see how revan would win, since vader can tank lightsaber strikes and keep fighting.

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#70 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: Mustafar Vader was hindered and definitely not on par with KF Vader, was he as powerful, yes. Could he apply that power properly. No due to mental handicaps. Maul cannot but Dooku certainly can as he has done before.

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#71 Edited by Kurk (382 posts) - - Show Bio

This is one of the best, if not the best, hypothetical match-ups within the SW mythos as far as debating goes as there is ample content for both sides with plenty of inconsistencies to exploit. I personally side with Vader's durability and physique being the determining factor, but am always open to persuasion as neither character makes my top ten favorite list—hence no fanboyism.

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#72 Posted by Jacthripper (15017 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader. Revan only seems to use his more occult abilities in combat in gameplay (fantastic gameplay I might add).

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#73 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: still with the circular logic....please, give me a reference for the idea that revan is greater then vitiate in spirit form, and why exactly you're still applying the circular logic of Vader has to perform feat A to be character B...

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#74 Posted by i_like_swords (26355 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader stalemated and sometimes ragdolled a guy who pull millions of tons worth of star destroyer to the ground. Revan was pressed by temple guards, mandalorians and war droids at his peak (before his mind split in half).

No idea how Revan wins, he doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

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#75 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@thatoneguy2958: still with the circular logic....please, give me a reference for the idea that revan is greater then vitiate in spirit form,

Because he's an equal to base Vitiate who's far more powerful than spirit Vitiate, not that hard to understand...

and why exactly you're still applying the circular logic of Vader has to perform feat A to be character B...

He doesn't have to replicate it but at leat perform something on a similar level, Revan simply has better feats and accolades.

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#76 Edited by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: I'm still waiting to see how revan is greater then vitiate, so far no sources.

Now it's Vader has to perform a similar feat.....yet revan didn't perform anything close to ziost either.....so circular logic is more of a maze? Still not following there.

And, just for giggles, proof that the feat vitiate performed at ziost was not a ritual.

Still backing Vader.

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#77 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@thatoneguy2958: I'm still waiting to see how revan is greater then vitiate, so far no sources.

If you'd actually bothered to read the debate I linked to you you'd see all the proof you need.

Now it's Vader has to perform a similar feat.....yet revan didn't perform anything close to ziost either.....so circular logic is more of a maze? Still not following there.

Vader has to perform a similar feat or beat somebody who has, Revan doesn't need to because he's factually equal to Vitiate who's far more powerful than spirit Vitiate, the being who performed Ziost. Basic logic, not hard to grasp.

And, just for giggles, proof that the feat vitiate performed at ziost was not a ritual.

The SWTOR codex confirms it wasn't.

Still backing Vader.

Lol.

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#78 Posted by the_wspanialy (4333 posts) - - Show Bio

I've tried to imagine any version of Revan struggling with TPM Maul, Old Man Kenobi or RotJ Luke. Needles to say, I've failed.

Revan wins.

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#79 Edited by BreakOfDawn (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77Vader has to perform a similar feat or beat somebody who has, Revan doesn't need to because he's factually equal to Vitiatewho's far more powerful than spirit Vitiate, the being who performed Ziost. Basic logic, not hard to grasp.

I might have missed something but when was this stated? Darth Marr, Satele Shan, the HoT and multiple other impartial characters have indicated that if SOR Revan were to resurrect Vitiate he'd destroy him then them. I don't remember a single quote putting Revan on Vitiate's level, save for being able to hold his own for a time against a much weaker novel Vitiate.

If you have a source for this, I'd actually be really interested in reading it.

@the_wspanialy:

I've tried to imagine any version of Revan struggling with TPM Maul

Sabers.

, Old Man Kenobi

Sabers again.

or RotJ Luke.

Sabers once more and also Force power. He'd win, but he'd have some trouble.

Needles to say, I've failed.

Revan wins.

So can you imagine Vader struggling with the Emperor's Wrath, Darth Nox, or the HoT? How about Marr or Satele Shan, let alone Lana Beniko? It's a false equivalence.

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#80 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn: Bruh, I probably should have made myself clearer. Yes Vitiate>Revan but it's not by any noticeable margin as shown by their fight in Revan and then him growing in lockstep with Vitiate over the course of their 300 year mental war, he's far more powerful than Spirit Vitiate which was my whole point regardless.

And no if Vader could beat those guys through the force he would have, instead they're all on his level in that regard, hence the need for sabers.

And that'd be relevant if Revan actually struggled with any of these guys, instead he ragdolls them individually during SOR while fighting the team.

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#81 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn: All of those guys are on par with Vader anyway.

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#82 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Bruh, I probably should have made myself clearer. Yes Vitiate>Revan but it's not by any noticeable margin as shown by their fight in Revan

Vitiate quickly overwhelms him when he turns his full power on Revan. That's not debatable, that's a fact.

and then him growing in lockstep with Vitiate over the course of their 300 year mental war,

He matched him mentally. That's incredibly impressive, but it's not a showing of Force potency. That's a willpower feat.

he's far more powerful than Spirit Vitiate which was my whole point regardless.

Based on what? Darth Marr, the HoT, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko and numerous others have all acknowledged that even the weakened Vitiate is stronger than Revan. There's very little to suggest that Revan's stronger than he is.

And no if Vader could beat those guys through the force he would have, instead they're all on his level in that regard, hence the need for sabers.

Just no.

And that'd be relevant if Revan actually struggled with any of these guys, instead he ragdolls them individually during SOR while fighting the team.

Yet he fails to put down even Theron Shan. This is why game mechanics are incredibly unreliable.

All of those guys are on par with Vader anyway.

Based on what? ROTJ Vader is above any of those people in the Force and is most likely their equal if not their superiors in lightsaber combat depending if you believe the circumstances surrounding his fight with Luke. In the latter case, that's irrelevant. It doesn't show anything.

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#83 Edited by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn: Vitiate quickly overwhelms him when he turns his full power on Revan. That's not debatable, that's a fact.

Refute Ant's arguments as to why the two are comparable then come back, I shouldn't have to parrot them needlessly when you've literally already read them.

He matched him mentally. That's incredibly impressive, but it's not a showing of Force potency. That's a willpower feat.

Since when have willpower/telepathy not been linked to force power?

Based on what? Darth Marr, the HoT, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko and numerous others have all acknowledged that even the weakened Vitiate is stronger than Revan. There's very little to suggest that Revan's stronger than he is.

Bruh, this is lying and you know it, they state that if Vitiate was restored to his former power he'd be>Revan not that his spirit form is, indeed it'd make little sense when Revan can give physical Vitiate a fight, demonstrating his superiority too Spirit Vitiate.

Just no.

Not a rebuttal, there was nothing stopping him using his force power, instead he doesn't because he's incapable of dominating them in that manner, indeed Maul displays superior force augmentation to Vader throughout their fight.

Based on what? ROTJ Vader is above any of those people in the Force and is most likely their equal if not their superiors in lightsaber combat depending if you believe the circumstances surrounding his fight with Luke. In the latter case, that's irrelevant. It doesn't show anything.

The protags have scaling that puts Vader's to shame lol.

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#84 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn:

Vitiate quickly overwhelms him when he turns his full power on Revan. That's not debatable, that's a fact.

Replied in a previous thread so I don't feel the need to go over it again.

He matched him mentally. That's incredibly impressive, but it's not a showing of Force potency. That's a willpower feat.

Thing is though if Vitiate were vastly more powerful than him he would have Telepathically dominated him but he didn't over their enitre 300 year long war. This suggests parity between Revan and Vitiate.

Based on what? Darth Marr, the HoT, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko and numerous others have all acknowledged that even the weakened Vitiate is stronger than Revan. There's very little to suggest that Revan's stronger than he is.

Yeah no. They acknowledged if Vitiate were brought back to full strength he'd be more powerful than Revan not highly weakened spirit Vitiate.

Just no.

Isn't a counter.

Yet he fails to put down even Theron Shan. This is why game mechanics are incredibly unreliable.

The mechanic is reliable because it's a specific animation for Revan which they had to manually insert. Completely different lol.

Based on what? ROTJ Vader is above any of those people in the Force and is most likely their equal if not their superiors in lightsaber combat depending if you believe the circumstances surrounding his fight with Luke.

I haven't seen anything from Vader which matches scaling above dominating hundreds of Jedi Masters and scaling above tanking fleet busting explosion.

Also given the amount of Luke=Vader quotes there are. I'd say they're equals lol in power and Sabers.

In the latter case, that's irrelevant. It doesn't show anything.

What's irrelevant about it?

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#85 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2587 posts) - - Show Bio
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#86 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#87 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn: Feel free to just address his post. Just realised they're basically exactly the same lol. Just respond to me in ther other thread.

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#88 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: revan scales to vitiate, but is no where near as powerful. Same as Vader to palpatine, except palpatine > vitiate.

Vader takes this.

That's all I have to say.

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#89 Edited by BreakOfDawn (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 Will do. Working on a respect thread for a book character I've been reading for a while so I'm sort of multi-tasking right now as I want to get that done before continuing any more debates. I honestly didn't expect this to be going on for so long or to be debating with you in particular for like the 8th time.

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#90 Edited by the_wspanialy (4333 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn said:

So can you imagine Vader struggling with the Emperor's Wrath, Darth Nox, or the HoT?

Either of them is better than either TPM Maul, Old Man Kenobi or RotJ Luke. So yes, I actually can imagine any of them making Vader struggle, and more.

How about Marr or Satele Shan, let alone Lana Beniko?

He would stomp Beniko. He would beat Marr or Shan for sure, but either of them would give him some trouble.

It's a false equivalence.

It might've been if Revan had struggled with either of those guys individually. He hadn't.

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#91 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabers.

Blatantly stated to be a test of their Force power also.

Sabers again.

Why do you think Vader didn't engage the Force? Lucas says it's because he would have failed.

Sabers once more and also Force power. He'd win, but he'd have some trouble.

Vader's still stated to have used all his power and Luke's repeatedly stated to either being on par or greater with Vader in the Force, so irrelevant.

So can you imagine Vader struggling with the Emperor's Wrath, Darth Nox, or the HoT? How about Marr or Satele Shan, let alone Lana Beniko? It's a false equivalence.

No, that's a false equivalence. Revan fought them as a group and still did exceptional, not to mention Vader would probably lose to or have difficulty with any protagonist individually.

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#92 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_wspanialy: @darthant66 I literally said in the previous post I'm busy so I'm not responding to anything for a while. Can you stop?

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#93 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#94 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

well, sue me I'll reply for the LOL's.

I finally found the energy to revisit this. Expect only a couple more responses as I don't really have the energy for this.

Obi-wan wasn't Vader's limit, he wasn't even trying in that fight. he didn't use any force powers against him he just had a pure lightsaber duel. obi-wan was on the defense the whole time so I don't see how Vader was just being "arrogant".

Multiple sources indicate that Vader was trying his hardest in that fight and also Vader himself notes afterwards that Kenobi was his equal iirc.

He didn't use the Force on Ben because the latter was simply just as powerful as him.

Well...the fact that Obi-wan felt there was no other way to win and just committed suicide says he was pretty much losing that fight so I don't see how they were "equals".

Vader gained no significant advantage despite duelling Ben for about a minute, Fightsaber says that Vader was simply unable to breach Ben's defence and Vader himself notes after the duel that they were equals.

Ben comitted suicide to make Luke stop watching and go because he knew he couldn't beat Vader. That doesn't mean Vader could beat him thouh.

No, I am saying it was a combination of several things that Vader was able to kill Sidious. him being durable enough to handle the force lightning, and being 80% of Sidious all of that falls together.

No it doesn't. He defeated Sidious because he was amped. In a normal scenario his equal (ROTJ Luke)was casually one shotted by a fraction of Sidious's power and Vader himself was TP'd from halfway across the galaxy.

I am not disagreeing with him not being on Sidious level hence why I said 80%.

Except even arguing he's 80% of Sidious's power is questionable. I've debunked the quote several times and you've yet to provide a counter.

LMFAO....really? so, Obi-wan lasting a minute is why you are acting like Vader isn't anything special?

Well yeah. I mean if Vader were remotely close to Sidious he would have gone out and one shotted Ben. Ben as of ANH was described as a "shadow" of his former self and Prime Kenobi was outmatched by Dooku who got battered in 15 seconds by KF Vader who is below ROTJ Sidious.

Count Dooku couldn't even defeat Obi-wan in a minute time...you are implying the gap difference from Count Dooku is much higher than ANH Vader and Obi-wan since according to you they are "Equals".

Well yeah Vader couldn't break down Kenobi's defences and he noted afterwards Kenobi was his equal which is supported by their close fight on screen. Meanwhile Count Dooku was visually toying with Obi Wan and didn't even put in his full effort with mtliple sources saying he defeated Obi Wan easily. Faulty comparison.

Obi-wan fighting style is to out last people with his unbreakable defense.

I love how people act like Kenobi having good defensive capabilities invalidates the whole showing. It doesn't. If Vader were much more powerful he should have hammered down Kenobi's defence or outright ragdolled him. Not to mention Vader afterwards literally said Kenobi was his equal.

Defeating Obi-wan in a whole minute is a new record If I am not mistaken; Anakin on Mustafa couldn't even do that.

He didn't defeat Kenobi in a minute lmao. They stalemated and Vader was noted to be unable to pierce his guard. And Anakin couldn't do that on Mustafar because of mental hinderances (not to mention Ankin fought Kenobi in his prime on Mustafar). Normally Anakin could batter Dooku is above Kenobi.

So...you are bringing up Star killer a video game character that you the player play as? Vader Train Galen body to take as much punishment as he physically could.....I don't see the point in bring him up also that is non canon but okay.

Vader training Galen to take punishment doesn't invalidate Galen ragdolling Vader (something that has nothing to do with durability) and thrashing him in Lightsaber combat. Also Galen is canon lmao. He's officially acknowledged as part of Legends Continuity.

You asked me to brink up something new to the debate besides reiterating the same arguments....fair enough.

And yet this post is filled with repeating stuff you've already said.

I just going to get to the point why Revan loses, Because he isn't Physically strong or imposing he isn't as resilience as Vader, isn't quite on Vader's level in dueling and so forth. I only see Raven being better in Force abilities that basically is it.

Revan has much better durability feats. He tanked a blast which could decimat eeverything in a 1km radius which Vader has no feats to compare to. As for duelling that relies heavily on Force augmentation and Revan's Force Reserves are significantly greater than Vader's. Not to mention even in duelling skill Revan has some great feats like humiliating The Mandalorians in the Mandalorian Wars ect.

Can you cite a source where George Lucas said those words exactly that Vader "Maybe" 80% of Sidious?

Sure:

So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20% less than the Emperor.

Credit: George Lucas

Just wanted to ask you why the hell are you asking me to source arguments that you made? You were the one who started up this whole Vader is close to Sidious nonsense and it's up to you to back it up. The only reason I stuck with this argument is because I knew the quote existed. Please tell me why I should take your arguments seriously when you can't even source them?

Since you are using force unleashed games to debate... I think it is fair to say that Vader also, in game Tanked Galen's Force lightning who had combined it with actual lightning against Vader and Struck him several times with it.

This never happened in the novel for starters which is the one true canon path and even if I were to take this as legit this was a heavily exhausted Galen who was in worse condition than he was after a period of 13 days without sleep or food. Isn't impressive and doesn't prove anything.

you didn't debunked all my points just only a couple if even that but okay.

I've literally gone through your points 1 by 1 and debunked them Since when have I only debunked a couple?

GG

Why do you keep on saying GG at the bottom of every post like you've won? You haven't debunked a single pint I made and have repeated yourself so many times it's not even funny so much so that I've had to repeat my own arguments because you haven't actually debunked them.

Whatever I'll probably write one more response to you and then give up and not return cause I can't take much more of this.

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#95 Edited by Lil_Remains (1757 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol why are comic fans so passive aggressive when they debate? Am I like this? Yikes.

OT: Revan wins because I like him more.

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#96 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

I refuse to keep going around in circles. I disagree with your assessment of where you think characters should be at.

It was said GL that Vader is at 80% you don't agree then leave it at that.

I told you Vader is stronger, and has Force Rage which makes him even stronger so far all you are telling me is that Revan is faster with more options. Cool, none of that stuff he has is going to put Vader down.

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#97 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

I refuse to keep going around in circles. I disagree with your assessment of where you think characters should be at.

And I respect that but the reason we're going around in circles is because you don't actually adress my points.

It was said GL that Vader is at 80% you don't agree then leave it at that.

No we shouldn't just "leave it at that" given it was one of your primary points throughout the debate and you consistently failed to respond to my arguments against it.

I told you Vader is stronger, and has Force Rage which makes him even stronger so far all you are telling me is that Revan is faster with more options.

Force Rage is something available to basically all Dark Siders lol. It also requires specific circumstances to trigger.

Cool, none of that stuff he has is going to put Vader down.

Except it will given a far weaker Force User (ROTJ Luke) managed to put Vader down.

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#98 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Vader wasn't Trying to kill Luke so that is moot point to bring up. Even Luke in the battle said that Vader was conflicted so using Luke is sad attempted at downplaying.

it goes back again to the original point that we have to take what GL said when he himself established everything for Vader.

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#99 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Vader wasn't Trying to kill Luke so that is moot point to bring up. Even Luke in the battle said that Vader was conflicted so using Luke is sad attempted at downplaying.

That's Luke's opinion and he was very clearly wrong as Vader was confirmed to be going all out in the novel.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

Credit: Return of the Jedi Novelization

But you know let's ignore Vader's thoughts in favour of Luke's opinion.

it goes back again to the original point that we have to take what GL said when he himself established everything for Vader.

Yeah sure we have to take what GL said but there aren't any quotes from him which prove Vader is incredibly powerful.

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#100 Posted by Bayman007 (2498 posts) - - Show Bio

So it's agreed, Vader wins xD