Captain America (MCU) vs Ra's al Ghul (CW)

@arcus1: I could be wrong.

Nothing showed that Clint was equally fast with T'Challa at all. Their fight was simply a testament to Hawkeye's skill. Being enhansed doesn't mean peak humans can't keep up with you, but Steve's never shown he's faster than a peak human in the first place, not counting running speed probably.

No you're being on the edge here. Just because he doesn't fight as skillfully as someone like T'Challa or Hawkeye or Black Widow doesn't make him unskillful and that's not what I said.

Imo, his martial and combat skill is mostly inferior in the sense that for most of the part, he simply punches and kicks people. Unlike the people I listed a few posts above, who have demonstrated diverse fighting styles or have prevailed against opponents far superior to them physically that do not lack in skill. And those are more than I can say for Steve.

Well in running speed he's definitely shown he's faster than peak human

I'm not sure how saying "he doesn't fight in a skillful manner" is all that different from saying "he fights in an unskillful manner" but ok

"Simply punches and kicks people"

That's an oversimplification, it's not like punching and kicking is a single style or something, but even if you wanna say it is, that's not all he does

Gallery

I think part of the problem is your assumption that striking styles have no diversity, but if you want Cap using some grappling, here you go

@anthp2000: I am going to post a video, you don't have to take everything the guy says as fact, but it should give you an idea to how skilled Captain America is.

Ras still stomps

@arcus1: Which I already said.

You either quote or you don't. I said he doesn't fight in a "very" skillful manner, which is absolutely true. If you want to see actually very skilled fighters you can see Clint and Natasha fighting on the airport or Daredevil fighting Iron Fist. Steve's not that comparable to these people skill wise.

That's not martial skill either, he's litteraly grabbing people. Closest one is the first gif on the ship and even then it's hardly a notable skill feat.

Steve's most impressive skill feat is probably blocking all of Buck's attempts with a knife in the highway, which is hardly top notch fighting.

@rr79: I don't trust these videos. At all.

Grappling styles aren't just "literally grabbing people" any more than striking styles are all just "punching and kicking"

What makes Clint vs Natasha so much more skillful, or Matt vs Danny? You keep saying they're more skillful, but not actually justifying it

I don't know what you're using to justify "skill" here

@anthp2000: Blocking knife strikes is not top notch fighting ? uhhhhh

You probably don't know anything about fighting like literally at all. It's one of the worst situations you can get yourself into.

Every MMA or self defense (Krav maga, Wing Chun etc...) teacher would teach you how defend yourself against someone with a knife, but he would also tell you that you should try to run away and only fight back,if you have no other options left.

It's way too risky, especially against someone who is just as good or almost as good as you.

I know you like to lowball Cap, but at least do it properly.

Cap wins. But i don't think people are giving Ra's enough credit here.

Interesting that this went on for three pages

You don't trust a video that is simply talking about the forms of martial arts used when it is very easy to research the forms of martial arts used? I mean, I could understand not trusting video's talking about calculating various feats but this is very easily researched and verified.

@arcus1:

The difference between them and Steve's fights? They're dodging and blocking strikes just as much as Steve, but in the process they hold each other on grips, escaping, using their legs, ultizing agility, throwing off opponents and disarming them. And then compare that to Steve's fights with Buck. Furthermore, fighting opponents way superior to them physically is a testament to great skill.

Like Matt fighting Elektra or moreso, Clint fighting T'Challa which is legit more impressive than anything Steve's done on the skill department.

@ithemanwithoutfeari:

By MCU standards? No it certainly isn't top notch fighting. Unless you think you and I can compare to avengers and shield agents in combat abilities. These people fight SWORDS all the time. You think knives are dangerous?

No, you simply like to highball Steve possibly more than anyone on this site, so you're not one to talk about these kinds of things at all.

@rr79:

For you it is. I've watched many of these videos and I choose to not trust them as non canon.

Seems a little strange to me on something that is easily researched and verified, but your choice. Regardless, calling Captain America unskilled is completely and totally untrue.

@rr79: You're so very triggered right now, and pretty predictable at that, but I won't repeat myself at all.

Telling you that it is your choice to trust or not trust the video is triggered? Really? Wow, that's a new one.

Cap.

Ra's stomps.

@rampagethefirst: Stop the lies

@kgb725: An opinion that differs from yours is a lie.

I don't see how Ras even has a chance. Cap physically overpowered Peter in Civil War, and used his shield to cut the webbing. There is literally no way anyone saying "But Ras is faster" has been paying attention at all. Cap absolutely demolishes Ras. Ras might as well be a purse snatcher. He's not fast enough, he's not strong enough, and tbh his martial arts are weak in comparison to the multiple styles and acrobatics we've seen cap use. I'm certain that h2h with equalized stats Cap would STILL put Ras down. I don't even like Steve but this is ridiculous.

@rampagethefirst: Ras has nothing to say he stomps

@kgb725 said:

My apologies, I didn't see CW there, even though the picture indicates it is Ra's from CW but I didn't pay much heed to that either, oh well, Cap wins.

Steve's got multiple fights against physically superior opponents (Ultron, Spider Man, Iron Man as the most notable ones)

I already posted showings of Steve using grips, you dismissed them as just grabbing or throwing people

If you want more showings

Here's Steve using his opponent's weapon against them (and using his legs, I guess)

Disarming each other was one of the first things Cap and Bucky did when they first fought

They use their legs here, if that's what you're looking for

Some more grabbing/escaping holds

Redirecting Ultron's momentum (using skill/grappling against a physically superior opponent)

Agility that came right after that

Using legs, grips, throwing opponent

Using legs, grips, idk if you'd consider any of that agility

Legs and agility (both used by Batroc and against Batroc)

Using skill/agility to escape Spider Man's grip

@arcus1: I hate repeating myself all the time in a single thread, but there's nothing about fighting opponents like Peter that compares to fighting T'Challa on the department of skill, because his skill level is close to zero as opposed to Panther. Out of all these people, Tony is the only one remotely comparable but he isn't all that in martial arts either.

I mean, if you can't see the differences in the scenes you posted with the fights I brought up above, I can't convince you. I've already talked about the highway fight with Buck, it was very impressive but not impressive enough to suggest Steve's as skilled as all these people at all. Agree to disagree at this point.

Never said fighting Peter was comparable in skill. I brought him up as an example of Cap using skill to overcome a physically superior opponent. If you're comparing to Hawkeye, it's not like Hawkeye won his fight. It's not like Black Widow's had that much success against Bucky either, if you wanna talk about fighting physically superior opponents. She's gotten wrecked both time she's tried.

Sure, they all use different styles, I just don't understand what metric you're using to say one's more skilled than the other

But agree to disagree I guess

@arcus1: And exactly those examples Steve has against superior opponents on the physical department also has them unskilled.

Sure, Clint didn't win against T'Challa but he performed extremely well and even incaped him, while being severely outmatched in every stat. It's an extremely impressive because of the stat advantage and the top notch skill Panther's shown.

Widow is superior to Clint in CQC, so yeah by scaling she gets that benefit. Bucky is a special occasion, she always approached him in a physical manner, jumping on him or punching him and the likes. She never tried getting into a skill contest, there's no reason why she wouldn't hold her own fine. Moreso, it's probably because she simply has no chance against the metal arm.

Choreography, statements and feats against physically superior opponents are my metrics.

Incapped him is kind of a stretch considering Panther got out of it just fine. Sure it's good, but I think you're overestimating it

She's tried using skill, using her signature leg move and choking him out, it doesn't work. She's done her best to take him out twice, once with help, and failed both times

@arcus1: he incaped and he got out.

When you jump on someone and start punching them or trying to choke them it's a physical contest, or close enough to not make a difference. See, it's clear that approaching the fighting by blocking attempts, dodging and the pike is very different

Also, add in feats against large groups of people on the metrics for skill.

Bump.

Did something new happen?

@rbt: No, but I just remembered this thread existed.

Bump for Infinity War.

Steve

CA wins this pretty solidly.

Still Cap. Infinity War hasn’t changed my opinion of him one way or the other.

Cap

Cap easy

A very easy win for Cap. He has everything on his side. A sword is not gonna take that soldier down.

Even after Infinity War all Steve did was solidify that he's stronger then Ra's which was already obvious. This wouldn't matter though due to the fact Ra's primary weapon is a sword that could one shot Steve with a precise shot and keep him at a distance. Durability would be canceled out as well due to the sword.

Ra's has skill/speed on his side as well, just look at their performances against other established opponents. Compare this to this.

Ra's unlike Steve literally went untouched by the established opponent he was facing. Now let's compare their opponents pre-LoA Oliver Queen to Brock Rumlow. Oliver at this point of the show he could run through hordes of fodder and was able to combat enhanced/superhumans. Brock as we know could kill multiple Shield agents and disarm Sharon Carter, while impressive he has nothing on Oliver. Not even gonna get into stats because it's pretty obvious Oliver has him beat in that as well.

So basically Ra's wins due to superior damage output, and his skill/speed advantage.

Cap can't really win this now. At least before IW, he had a shot at tagging Ra's(however minuscule) with a shield toss and putting him down. With his new gauntlets, he will have to fight cqc, where Ra's would destroy him because of far greater skill, reach and a weapon that can put him down in one or two hits.

Ra's, beats him even harder now that Cap doesn't have his traditional shield.

Steve still murks him, and nonsensical/arbitrary arguments won’t change that Steve is still better in every capacity

Steve stomps.

Steve doesn't have a great ability to keep his shield in battles, and if that shield goes away against Ra's al Ghul, Steve will get sliced up.
If Steve manages to take Ra's sword after this, he'll still be blood lossed and in pained so I don't see him landing hits on a fresh Ra's al Ghul. Meanwhile Ra's can still take him down with deadly techniques.

ra's curbs

Come on now, how exactly is Steve better in every capacity? He's stronger, sure, but that's about the only advantage he has here.

Ra's is far more skilled, but Cap is far stronger and more durable. Sadly, both of Cap's advantages are rendered moot due to Ra's greater reach(sword), greater skill and ability to bypass Cap's blunt force durability by stabbing him. Cap has to get real close to bash Ra's with his mini-shields which'll be downright nigh-impossible due to Ra's comparable, if not outright superior speed, greater reach and greater skill.

Ra's wins 6 to 7/10 for those reasons.

Ra's.

@rbt: Steve is more durable, he has better weaponry, he has much better performances against MUCH better opponents than Ra’s has ever faced, he’s quicker, and Steve has to land one solid hit to beat him. Steve can work around a sword, whether he has his shield or the Wakandan gauntlets.

C'mon son. Cap wins.