Captain America (MCU) vs Ra's al Ghul (CW)

Steve's hardly that impressive skill wise. If his physicals were suddenly on a regular MCU peak human's level, he wouldn't be anywhere near as high in the food chain, let alone if you take away his shield. I don't think he compares to the few things I have seen for Ra's at all.

Ra's wins this.

@anthp2000: Steve's hardly that impressive skill wise. If his physicals were suddenly on a regular MCU peak human's level, he wouldn't be anywhere near as high in the food chain, let alone if you take away his shield. I don't think he compares to the few things I have seen for Ra's at all.

What?. How is beating or stalemating people with similar stats to him (Bucky, T'Challa) or holding his own against opponents above his weight class not an indicator of skill?. This is a lowballing statement, if I have seen one.

And the shield is part of his fighting style. I mean that's like saying Ra's will be far less skilled if you take away his sword....

@rbt:He did do it in plain sight. I have posted the video in last post.

Thanks for the video, but that looks like a clear travel/running speed feat to me. He basically just outraced her and since she did not have her eyes trained on him while she was running away from him, I fail to see how that counts as disappearing in plain sight. I mean, I can show feats of Cap pretty much doing the same to Falcon (read outracing him) during the famous 'on your left' scene from Winter Solider.

Not saying it's not impressive of course, but that's hardly combat relevant and the fact that he has never replicated it mid combat does not help matters.

Ra's fodder feat is extremely impressive(last post).

Sure it is. But Cap has blitzed fodder too. Albeit in a slightly different way.

Even assuming Oliver had no sword fighting skill despite him being trained by multiple swordsmen, its not like Cap has any sword fighting skill. In fact, he has none. If he could dance around Ollie, he can do more than that to Steve.

Yeah but Steve is not fighting with a sword here, is he?. He is fighting as he fights best and bringing his own advantages to the table. You could argue that he is faster sure, but he isn't going to toy, blitz or dance around Cap by any means.

It's not lowballing at all. I never said Steve's not skilled, he's simply not notably skilled compared to other fighters in LA.

Buck isn't really skilled either. Panther is fair, yet he was far more impressive that Cap overall, I think it's pure PIS that he did not try to get behind the shield through agility, instead trying to overpower him head on. Only notable opponents he has faught above his weight class are.... Peter. And Peter's skill level is next to zero. And Crossbones? Not impressive skill wise either, and Steve could compare just fine to him physically.

That's a terrible comparison. Steve has trained in h2h and that's what we call skill. He simply has a large shield with him which protects him against stronger, faster or more skilled opponents, like T'Challa for one. Ra's is trained in swordsmanship on the other hand and from what I know, hasn't exactly recieved h2h training, at least not special.

@brucerogers:

Thanks for the video, but that looks like a clear travel/running speed feat to me. He basically just outraced her and since she did not have her eyes trained on him while she was running away from him, I fail to see how that counts as disappearing in plain sight. I mean, I can show feats of Cap pretty much doing the same to Falcon (read outracing him) during the famous 'on your left' scene from Winter Solider.

Not saying it's not impressive of course, but that's hardly combat relevant and the fact that he has never replicated it mid combat does not help matters.

I remember a calc on Ra's feat turning out to be around 70mph. Now, its not a combat speed feat, but it does make Ra's movement speed better than Cap's.

Sure it is. But Cap has blitzed fodder too. Albeit in a slightly different way.

Not in the way Ra's did. He started in middle of 8 LoA ninjas and killed all of them in 10 seconds. I don't remember any of Cap's feat that comes even close to this, tbh.

Yeah but Steve is not fighting with a sword here, is he?. He is fighting as he fights best and bringing his own advantages to the table. You could argue that he is faster sure, but he isn't going to toy, blitz or dance around Cap by any means.

And what exactly would he do with the shield? Cap's go to move is to toss it at his opponent and Ra's is fast enough to dodge it. What then? Is he going to walk up and punch Ra's in face? Because that's not happening in a million years. Even assuming Cap does not toss his shield, how is he taking Ra's down? Ra's was casually sidestepping Oliver's rushes with his hands behind his back.

A couple of hits from shield would likely down Ra's, but how is Cap doing that without getting tagged even once by a faster, much more skilled guy with a reach advantage?

@anthp2000:

It's not lowballing at all. I never said Steve's not skilled, he's simply not notably skilled compared to other fighters in LA.

And which LA fighters would that be?

Buck isn't really skilled either.

And you say you are not lowballing. I mean, come on...

Panther is fair, yet he was far more impressive that Cap overall, I think it's pure PIS that he did not try to get behind the shield through agility, instead trying to overpower him head on.

Seems to me you are just calling it PIS because you did not like the feat. And Panther did use his agility against him, like when he did that triple hurricane kick. Steve just blocked it.

Only notable opponents he has faught above his weight class are.... Peter. And Peter's skill level is next to zero. And Crossbones? Not impressive skill wise either, and Steve could compare just fine to him physically.

Add Iron Man, Ultron and the Chitauri too. And Crossbones did hold his own against Falcon during the end of WS and was even getting the upper hand.

That's a terrible comparison. Steve has trained in h2h and that's what we call skill. He simply has a large shield with him which protects him against stronger, faster or more skilled opponents, like T'Challa for one.

You do know there are other ways to gauge skill besides pure h2h right?. His ability to utilise his shield in combat efficiently is also a feat of skill. Just because it offers him additional perks in terms of blocking attacks, does not mean his existing skill feats automatically get null and void.

Ra's is trained in swordsmanship on the other hand and from what I know, hasn't exactly recieved h2h training, at least not special.

You mean the same way how Steve trained with his shield as part of his fighting style?. Funny how that gets ignored...

He is though.

@anthp2000: @brucerogers:

For the record, Ra's is an expert fighter unarmed as well as with a sword.

@rbt: I remember a calc on Ra's feat turning out to be around 70mph. Now, its not a combat speed feat, but it does make Ra's movement speed better than Cap's.

I take fan calcs with a grain of salt but regardless I was pointing out the fact that it wasn't a combat relevant speed feat.

Not in the way Ra's did. He started in middle of 8 LoA ninjas and killed all of them in 10 seconds. I don't remember any of Cap's feat that comes even close to this, tbh.

Cap did blitz those Hydra agents during WS before they could fire a single shot. Regardless, I guess Ra's does edge out in speed. Edge out being the keyword here.

And what exactly would he do with the shield? Cap's go to move is to toss it at his opponent and Ra's is fast enough to dodge it.

It would be highly unlikely of Steve to throw away his primary form of defence against a sword wielding opponent, unless he is trying to distract him or if he is near a wall or something, going for a trick shot. Even if Ra's does see it coming enough to evade or parry it, it will leave him vulnerable for that moment. One opening is all Steve needs in order to overpower him with his far superior strength.

What then? Is he going to walk up and punch Ra's in face? Because that's not happening in a million years.

You are kind of jumping the gun here. Nowhere did I say he is just going to walk up to him and clonk him on the face. It will be a long fight with Ra's getting his hits in. But his stats, damage soak combined with his not inconsiderable skills is what allows him to win here. Cap is good enough as to not get fatally stabbed or slashed by him too.

A couple of hits from shield would likely down Ra's, but how is Cap doing that without getting tagged even once by a faster, much more skilled guy with a reach advantage?

He will get tagged but this is the same guy who can fight after getting a deep knife wound to his shoulder and a bullet in his back, leg and torso. So some sword slashes aren't going to faze him and he is skilled, fast and well equipped enough to not get hit fatally. Once he gets his hands on him, it's all over for Ra's.

@lubub55: Oh, I am not denying that. But the notion that he can blitz Cap is just baffling.

@brucerogers:

And which LA fighters would that be?

I don't plan to name fighters now, that would lead to irrelevant debates. I made my point clear.

And you say you are not lowballing. I mean, come on...

How am I lowballing? What the heck has Buck done to suggest he is a top class martial artist/fighters or something?

Seems to me you are just calling it PIS because you did not like the feat. And Panther did use his agility against him, like when he did that triple hurricane kick. Steve just blocked it.

No, if I was calling it PIS cause I did not like the feat I would simply ignore it. What I don't understand is why T'Challa did not try to get behind the shield, and there I call bs. The triple aerial kick has nothing to do with trying to get behind the shield.

Add Iron Man, Ultron and the Chitauri too. And Crossbones did hold his own against Falcon during the end of WS and was even getting the upper hand.

Punching Tony's suit repeatedly? Pure skill there. He did not fight Ultron in any way that shows skill, he held him off at range. The Chiaturi are fodder.

You do know there are other ways to gauge skill besides pure h2h right?. His ability to utilise his shield in combat efficiently is also a feat of skill. Just because it offers him additional perks in terms of blocking attacks, does not mean his existing skill feats automatically get null and void.

Of course it is a feat of skill. However, I'm sure as hell everyone here, including you, is talking about Steve's h2h here. This on the other hand is irrelevant with the discussion, unless we're talking about lowballing or highballing Steve and you being upset cause I don't think he is notably skilled compared to others.

You mean the same way how Steve trained with his shield as part of his fighting style?.

No, I mean the same way Steve trained in h2h. The shield is a plain gear support with which he is skilled with.

Funny how that gets ignored...

No, I'm totally serious.

@anthp2000: I don't plan to name fighters now, that would lead to irrelevant debates. I made my point clear.

This sounds like a clear cop out to me, but fine whatever.

How am I lowballing? What the heck has Buck done to suggest he is a top class martial artist/fighters or something?

Holding his own against Panther?. Iron Man?. His fodder feats too showcase excellent skill, since he never gets tagged.

No, if I was calling it PIS cause I did not like the feat I would simply ignore it. What I don't understand is why T'Challa did not try to get behind the shield, and there I call bs. The triple aerial kick has nothing to do with trying to get behind the shield.

Cap for one is not going to just idly stand there and let him outpace the shield like that. I am pretty sure T'Challa knew that and decided to pick a different alternative instead.

The triple kick is a display of agility though.

Punching Tony's suit repeatedly? Pure skill there.

Yeah and Tony totally stood there and took it and at no point attempted to fight back right?. He also totally did not run a move predicting algorithm against him which still did not save him from getting pummelled into the ground eventually.....

He did not fight Ultron in any way that shows skill, he held him off at range.

You do realise the could keep Ultron within safe range precisely because he had the skill and speed to do so right?

The Chiaturi are fodder.

Agreed. But they are still physically superior to him.

Of course it is a feat of skill. However, I'm sure as hell everyone here, including you, is talking about Steve's h2h here.

The shield is part of his h2h fighting style.

This on the other hand is irrelevant with the discussion, unless we're talking about lowballing or highballing Steve and you being upset cause I don't think he is notably skilled compared to others.

Upset?. Who is getting upset?. All I asked was to substantiate your claim about Steve not being that skilled and how he pales in comparison to the LOA fighers. Which you didn't bother to name anyways.

No, I mean the same way Steve trained in h2h. The shield is a plain gear support with which he is skilled with.

The shield is part of his fighting style, like I said. He isn't a pure h2h fighter.

It's not a cop out, just trying to avoid irrelevant debates, but fine. Ra's, Daredevil, Batman, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Elektra, Melinda May, Black Panther are some off the top of my head that I consider notably more skilled than Steve by a solid margin.

He lost to Panther repeatedly in seconds, he litteraly matched Tony's strength for moments and I don't remember any really skillful showings against fodder.

Remarkably enough, T'Challa never even tried. Exactly what would Steve be able to do to properly counter a faster opponent parkouring behind his shield? As for that "different alternative", if you mean straight up hitting in front of him, sure. And showcasing agility =/= trying to get behind the shield. Though I might as well say T'Challa is like Buck, who repeatedly shot Cap's shield at close range instead.

You're acting as if Tony did not get solid hits in, and it wasn't simply because of his "superior stats", moreso because he was comparably skilled.

You seem to be thinking that fighting completely skillless opponents such as Ultron or the Chiaturi somehow shows skill just because they have a stat advantage. No, it simply shows the fighter is more skilled than someone whose skill level is precisely zero.

Anyone can take a shield and move it in front of them sorry to break it to you. Doesn't take anywhere near as much as skill than to wield a sword and properly master it or any other melee weapon. The way he uses it at range is skillful, but that's not CQC skill.

I don't know what LOA stands for actually. And I didn't bother to name other cause I'm sure you're going to start talking about each of them to open entirely irrelevant debates.

@brucerogers: Cap's pain tolerance isn't anything to brag about. The only thing he has shrugged off is a knife. He literally started limping the moment he was shot in the leg. Two more shots and he was down for quite a while. A sword would hurt way more than a 9mm bullet. Once Cap gets tagged, it'll only become easier to tag him furthur.

So, if you agree that Ra's is more skilled as well as faster and he has a reach advantage, just what is stopping Ra's from winning this? Steve slowed down visibly after being shot once. How does he continue fighting at his normal pace(which is already inferior) after Ra's lands a strike? Fatal or not.

The only way for Cap to win this is to ricochet the shield from something and tag Ra's with it. In cqc, Ra's has every advantage that matters. The only thing Cap has on Ra's is his strength, which would only come in play if he lands a hit on Ra's. Considering all the other advantages Ra's has(speed, skill, reach and a weapon that can essentially end this in one hit), I don't see that happening. Definitely not for a majority.

Ra's.

@anthp2000: t's not a cop out, just trying to avoid irrelevant debates, but fine. Ra's, Daredevil, Batman, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Elektra, Melinda May, Black Panther are some off the top of my head that I consider notably more skilled than Steve by a solid margin.

A lot of them haven't done anything Steve hasn't replicated skill wise. In fact, I would say Steve is outright better due to actually fighting skilled non fodder. I am really baffled as to why you would think this.

He lost to Panther repeatedly in seconds, he litteraly matched Tony's strength for moments

I suggest you re-watch his encounters with Panther. While you could argue that T'Challa probably did have the upperhand in most of them, Bucky sure did make him work for it. The same against Iron Man. He was pretty much keeping up with Steve when it came to pounding on him for a bit.

and I don't remember any really skillful showings against fodder.

So beating a small cadre of hydra/shield agents without getting tagged even once, does not count as a feat of skill?. That would make a lot of the characters you listed above as unskilled or not that skilled too then.

Remarkably enough, T'Challa never even tried. Exactly what would Steve be able to do to properly counter a faster opponent parkouring behind his shield?

How about just turning around for starters?. Or just stopping his leap? .Unless you think Panther is fast enough to appear invisible to him or something.

As for that "different alternative", if you mean straight up hitting in front of him, sure. And showcasing agility =/= trying to get behind the shield. Though I might as well say T'Challa is like Buck, who repeatedly shot Cap's shield at close range instead.

You are being needlessly nitpicky here. Getting behind the shield is not the only way to show agility, especially when he was making a conscious effort to dodge and attack Cap in a way that decidedly showcased it.

You're acting as if Tony did not get solid hits in, and it wasn't simply because of his "superior stats", moreso because he was comparably skilled.

Tony got his hits in precisely because he did not just stand there and let himself get pummelled, like you suggested. And no, Tony needed the move reading program to aid him because he knew he was hopelessly outclassed in skill. For whatever good that did him since Steve still won the fight anyway.

You seem to be thinking that fighting completely skillless opponents such as Ultron or the Chiaturi somehow shows skill just because they have a stat advantage. No, it simply shows the fighter is more skilled than someone whose skill level is precisely zero.

Well for starters, Ultron wasn't exactly a slow moving brute and both him and the Chitauri had long range weapons. Cap avoiding that and hitting Ultron with precise shield shots and making skillful use of his environment is what counts as a feat of skill.

And again, you do realise that a lot of the people you listed in your examples are called skilled for the same reason right?. ie beating fodder. Yet you don't extend the same courtesy to Cap why exactly?. because you dislike him?

Anyone can take a shield and move it in front of them sorry to break it to you. Doesn't take anywhere near as much as skill than to wield a sword and properly master it or any other melee weapon. The way he uses it at range is skillful, but that's not CQC skill.

And by that logic anyone can swing a sharp huge ass sword, so I guess Ra's automatically becomes unimpressive due to that fact.

Unless you realise that performing complex trick shots or knowing when to use the shield in a defensive fashion (no different than blocking or parrying with your hands) takes more skill and training than you care to admit. And given that he has used it as a melee weapon by simply attaching it to his arms, I fail to see how that would hinder him in CQC.

I don't know what LOA stands for actually. And I didn't bother to name other cause I'm sure you're going to start talking about each of them to open entirely irrelevant debates.

I though you were talking about the League of Assassins aka LOA when you brought up the skilled fighters counter. My mistake. Though you shouldn't make assertions if you don't plan on backing them up. If you felt it was irrelevant, then why bring it up?

@rbt: Cap's pain tolerance isn't anything to brag about.

I am not sure what your definition of impressive entails but the point is that he can still fight or deadlift heavy metal beams off people when weakened so.

The only thing he has shrugged off is a knife. He literally started limping the moment he was shot in the leg. Two more shots and he was down for quite a while.

Yeah a knife that was buried deep inside his shoulder or chest. And do you remember what the did to Bucky after that?. Grabbed his hands and headbutted him a couple of times. What do you supposed would happen to Ra's if he tries something like that?. Concussions, at the very least.

And he could be limping or crying for his mommy in pain for all I care but he still managed to get the job done, followed by deadlifting that heavy beam off Bucky and taking a prolonged vicious beating from him. It was falling from the exploding Helicarrier that knocked him out. He wasn't down after getting shot for that long either, it was like a minute or so tops. And don't forget, this was after the punishment he had already endured.

A sword would hurt way more than a 9mm bullet. Once Cap gets tagged, it'll only become easier to tag him furthur.

Are you forgetting that the bullet had penetrated his insides to the point he was internally bleeding?. And that was just one bullet out of 3 (4, if you count that bullet which nicked him early on) and a knife stab deep enough to cut through his muscles.

So, if you agree that Ra's is more skilled as well as faster and he has a reach advantage, just what is stopping Ra's from winning this? Steve slowed down visibly after being shot once.

I said he edges out in skill and speed. And I am being generous here. That's not enough to overcome his massive stats disadvantage against an opponent who also has the skill to complement it. Ra's can probably take a few, but Steve wins a comfortable majority.

Prior to getting shot at from the back, he endured a deep knife stab, a nicked bullet wound and he wasn't exactly no selling Bucky's punches to boot. After all that, he retained enough strength and damage soak for that metal beam feat and Bucky's beating.

One or two attacks from the sword will slow him down a bit but by no means make him helpless. Especially since he can use his damage soak as an advantage to get Ra's within his reach.

The only way for Cap to win this is to ricochet the shield from something and tag Ra's with it.

Once Cap is near a wall and throws his shield, Ra's either gets hit by it or he dodges it and the shield ricochets to the back of his head. Or assuming he also sees that coming, he will need to do something in order to parry or dodge that. That is one too many openings for Cap to not use to his advantage.

In cqc, Ra's has every advantage that matters. The only thing Cap has on Ra's is his strength, which would only come in play if he lands a hit on Ra's.

Add agility and damage soak to the mix too. In fact, Ra's only way to survive this fight is to keep his distance and evade with his sword. Getting into a brawl with Cap is suicide for him.

Considering all the other advantages Ra's has(speed, skill, reach and a weapon that can essentially end this in one hit), I don't see that happening. Definitely not for a majority.

His speed and skill aren't an advantage that will allow him to win, since Cap isn't exactly Luke Cage. He is very skilled and fast, with the advantage of being more agile. The weapon can end him in one hit provided he manages to bypass the shield somehow (which is far easier said than done, unless he has plot on his side) and if he manages to get in a very very lucky one.

Hell I wouldn't even put it past Ra's sword to break or at least blunt after striking Cap's shield too hard.

Ras will use that shield after Cap finishes using it

@lubub55: Cap.

@foxerdes: What makes you think that Ras is faster than Steve (PM me if you don't mind) ? Just curious.

@brucerogers: Fighting through a knife wound, in no way implies he can do same to a sword strike. Those two aren't even comparable. As for Cap fighting through knife and gun shots wounds and lifting the beam off of Buck, he could barely move after being shot. He crawled his way to the panel to insert the final card. One decent strike and Cap will be down for count.

As for the headbutting thing, that's the point I'm trying to make. Cap could headbutt Buck because he was close enough. Ra's never has to be that close. His sword gives him a big reach advantage.

Internal bleeding would be the least of his worries if he gets stabbed by a sword. Ra's can swing it hard enough to shatter other swords.

I'm not even going to pretend Cap is even in same skill level as Ra's. He isn't. Ra's was playing with Thea, a Merlyn level opponent, with his hand behind his back. He beat post Al Sah Him Oliver when unarmed. Cap has no feats to be on S1 Ollie's level, let alone post league Ollie. Ra's does not edge it in skill, he is massively more skilled than Cap.

@foxerdes: My apologies, mate. I meant to tag RBT.

If Panther was notably more skilled than Steve by a solid margin, it would've showed in their fight. The fact that it didn't means that Panther and Cap are intended to be comparably skilled

Parkouring behind his shield? Cap would have to let T'Challa just somehow flip around his shield. I'm trying to imagine how that would work as a viable tactic that wouldn't be easily countered, can't think of anything.

We saw in the fight that T'Challa was working to strike around the shield, forcing Cap to dodge and such. But trying to somehow get behind Cap would never realistically work

What are you saying Panther should've done?

@arcus1: Not really. Cap was on the defensive with his shield the whole time. In straight h2h, T'Challa was in fact more impressive. At a bare minimum as far as choreography goes, as shown in all his fights with Buck.

I personally can't see the other way around. What would Steve be able to do to prevent that, esspecially against a faster opponent.

@anthp2000:

Wait, are you suggesting Ra's is faster than T'Challa?

Did you actually read anything I said?

@anthp2000: You could've just said "no". No need to be mean. And yes, I read everything you said.

I'm just curious as to how you got that out of my arguments.

Cap's a defensive fighter (his main weapon is a shield, after all). That's standard for him against Batroc, Bucky, etc.

What are you saying T'challa would do? I don't know what you're thinking he would do in the first place, flip behind Cap? I mean, something like that's easily countered by Cap just turning around

Cap easily. Stronger and more durable, and don't seem to get tired.

Ra's fighting Steve would be like a really Skilled 3 year old fighting Manny Pacquiao.

Steve 2 shot

This has nothing to do with skill. Without the shield, I'd have a hard time believing Steve could properly keep up with Panther.

Flip behind him, go for the legs etc.. there are so many more things to do than keep going for the shield.

Gotta get back to this.

If Cap was fighting a suited up Panther without his shield, yeah Panther would win. No shield vs no suit, I don't think we've seen enough of Panther to say that Cap wouldn't be able to keep up at all

Why would flipping behind him work? That's easily countered by Cap just turning around...

Legs maybe

Also, it's not like we saw much of the fight. What we did see, Cap wasn't just hiding behind the shield/Panther wasn't just hitting the shield. We see Panther going for repeated strikes at Cap's head, and Cap dodges all of them

Obviously the fight wasn't long enough for a full comparison, but the writers used it to show how the two compare, and they showed that they were roughly comparable. We know Cap's better than Bucky (he was better back in Winter Soldier and has only gotten better since), so this is consistent with that

@arcus1:

If Cap was fighting a suited up Panther without his shield, yeah Panther would win. No shield vs no suit, I don't think we've seen enough of Panther to say that Cap wouldn't be able to keep up at all

Just look at T'Challa fighting Buck h2h, he is the better martial artist by a solid margin. And then you've got the speed edge, which is both feat-wise and writing/directing-wise there. Steve wouldn't be able to keep up, and I think it's plot that he could simply force a stalemate through his shield. Because like I said there are ways to get around it, that undisputedly we did not see Panther doing.

The triple aerial kick was a frontal assault. I really don't think the shield is as supportive as you think it is, so long as Steve's opponent knows how to fight.

Btw, I don't know what you mean by "turn around". What I do know, is that Steve's opponents, armed and unarmed, can almost always go for the legs, yet they don't. Weird enough?

I'd argue that Cap could replicate Panther's showings if needed: he never had a fight with Bucky like Panther did after Winter Soldier (the time he found Bucky brainwashed doesn't really count, imo), but Cap was already superior in Winter Soldier, and logically the gap would have increased. Compare their fights with Spider Man, for example

I never denied that was a frontal assault

How do we know there's a speed edge? If the writers wanted Panther to have a speed edge, why didn't they show it?

If Panther tries to do some sort of backflip to get behind Cap, like I think you're suggesting, all Cap has to do is just turn around to be facing Panther again, if I'm understanding you correctly?

Legs are also a harder target than the upper body/head: they're smaller, and you won't be able to do as much damage with a hit there

Again, we only saw a few seconds of them fighting. I could see Panther having an edge over Cap, it would make sense considering Panther should have been training longer, but if the writers wanted Panther to be significantly better than Cap, they wouldn't have had Cap match him. You can't just dismiss it as PIS because, in the brief encounter, Panther didn't go for the legs

If we didn't know that Cap was a better fighter than Bucky, I could see your point, but he is, so trying to use Panther's showings against Bucky to say he must be better than Cap seems like flawed logic to me. And without that, I don't see any logical reason to dismiss what was clearly intended to show that Cap and Panther are comparable fighters

First of all, I'm not sure why you're saying it doesn't count, unless you simply mean Bucky overwhelmed every person in the building there. And I disagree as to the gap having increased, what is there to suggest Buck didn't get as much advancement as Steve?

Then I'm not seeing your point.

The directors explained how he is superhumanly fast, both in movement and reflex. And he is the only person in there with legit bullet timing showings. He was clearly moving faster in his first fight with Buck too.

No, he can simply grab the shield and parkour in Steve's face, not that hard.

Hitting the legs with your own legs is very simply, and live action fighters do it all the time. Just not against Steve.

You're acting as if Steve was much better than Buck.... Slight edge, definitely smaller than the gap between Panther and Buck. Furthermore, I wasn't purely talking about their performance against Buck and the verdict. I was talking about the choreography in there, frankly Steve doesn't fight in a very skillful manner h2h wise.

I never said they're not comparable fighters, I said T'Challa is handedly more skilled in h2h, which there's nothing to suggest otherwise.

@anthp2000:

Becasue it's inconsistent with every other indication of how they rank, and Cap wasn't expecting to fight his brainwashed best friend, which provides a logical explanation for why the fight went the way it did

Cap had been busy fighting and training with the Avengers, while Bucky had been in hiding for the past several years

Cap's superhuman too, all his physical abilities are enhanced by the serum

Grab the shield and parkour in Steve's face? What does that mean?

Again, Steve's logically improved due to being active while Bucky's been in hiding. Panther also has no conflicted feelings about fighting Bucky, he was trying to kill Bucky, which was never Cap's goal

What do you mean Steve doesn't fight in a skillful manner?

...how can they be comparable if you're also saying Panther's way better?

He died back in S3, so nothing new. Just the usual arguments about him being so much more skilled that he can win with a sword

@anthp2000: Never mind. My bad.

Steve wasn't surprised or something, so no. Just shows Buck can edge out a win at times, even if Steve's obviously superior all around. And IIRC, Steve did not have his shield there, which is the best logical explanation as to why he lost.

How do you know he wasn't training while hiding??

His speed isn't enhanced.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it, but I guess we can agree to disagree.

I mean that, compare his choreography to T'Challa's and you get the answer.

There's more in a fight than pure martial skill... Steve's shield for one, which let him stalemate Panther in the first place.

Cap wins. Ras has done nothing in the CW tv show that would suggest enhanced or superhuman abilities. Arrow even defeats him 1 on 1 in their rematch.

...he wasn't surprised to find that his friend had been brainwashed and was attacking him? Why would he have been expecting that?

He was already able to beat him without the shield

What do you mean his speed isn't enhanced? All of his physical abilities were affected by the serum. Maybe he's not as fast as Panther, but there's no reason to think he's not fast, and again, if they wanted Panther to be way faster than Cap, they would've shown it in the fight.

Yeah T'challa's style is different, maybe flashier, but that alone doesn't mean he's way more skilled than Cap, or that Cap fights unskillfully? Cap's choreography is great

My memory might be foggy, but Steve was watching Buck from a camera, and they had realised he was brainwashed or something.

Like I said, the gap between them is slight to minimal. There's no reason why Buck wouldn't be able to take a few rounds. He had already gotten a monmentum attacking Steve. His metal arm seems simply too strong, and Buck's lack of morality there helped.

There's no reason to think his speed was enhansed. Peak human fighters are as fast or faster than him consistently. I never said he was way faster, I simply said he was faster, which is essentially a great addition if you are to get behind Cap's shield.

"Flashier" is simply an excuse to not say more skillful or to admit that someone is in fact a better martial artist. I never said Steve fights unskillfully, I said he's not really impressive on the department compared to others, including T'Challa, which makes sense given his superhuman stats.

They were watching the interrogation, probably, but then power went out so they couldn't watch anymore, hence whey they went to check, iirc. They knew something suspicious was happening, not what

Sure, the gap between them wasn't huge, but logically it would have improved with Cap doing Avngers stuff while Bucky was in hiding. Plus, again, Panther was trying to kill Bucky, while Cap was fighting his best friend.

And Hawkeye was able to match Panther's speed, your point?

But you said this

That means he fights unskillfully

What makes Cap so bad compared to others? What about his fighting style seems so inferior?