FF take out the trash. 3/4 members can casually solo.
GreyBoi's forum posts
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What
but you don’t scream out in pain if your knocked out, Also Mar-Vell fought Annihilus after Carol was ”knocked out”?
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/QwntOp8
I didn't say she was KOed. I said she was out of the fight. And she was. She was useless the for the length of Annihilus vs Mar-Vell fight.
Think you need to recheck the instance. Cause that doesn’t look to be true. You also don’t go “Hgnn..” when your knocked out. Then say “Oh Fred” the next panel and get back up with your eyes glowing she absorbs energy she wasn’t knocked out by a casual energy blast from Annihilus.
You should re-read what I said. Fact is, she was greatly hurt by that blast and was unable to get up for a while, only managing to recover when Annihilus bitchslapped Mar-Vell.
Which doesn't bode well for your argument of her being better than Sue or Ben, because Sue effortlessly blocked his blast while Ben tanked it without being hurt. And that was a stronger version of Annihilus they fought too compared to the one who embarassed Danvers.
Regardless my mistake on the Cosmic Control Rod even despite that, she blasted it out of him after absorbing his blast. Still not a bad showing on her part.
It's not a good showing or a bad showing. It's literally a non-feat.
Youre really trying to use a scan of Colossus holding Binary for a singular panel where she’s saying she doesn’t want to hurt him as a antifeat against her...?
Yes?
From the same Comic where Rogue gets decked to the Moon from Xaviers mansion.
Yes?
There’s singular panels of Guardian a street level character holding Superboy Prime for a panel of Hawkman holding Aquaman. Or Flash holding Martian Manhunter back. It’s not the best argument to make. I was expecting you to show Colossus actually beating Binary in a fight with the way you were making it sound.
She was physically overpowered, or else she wouldn't ask him to let go and just flexed him off.
The same Binary who could do this if she was being physically overpowered
But then again she also stated she wasn’t trying to hurt Pietro
Yes, she could have done that, but she said she didn't want to hurt him. But she was overpowered, or else she would have broken his hold physically without hurting him.
She went Binary after absorbing Thor’s lightning attack not after hours of fighting.
https://imgur.com/gallery/dQnyuxh
She was in base in that first scan and in the second scan when she got hit by lightning when Thor said “For the last time, yield” she went Binary.
But she needed all the power she absorbed during the fight to knock him out.
She can be amped by energy without going Binary and she can go Binary without absorbing energy. Though her being in the form without absorbing energy doesn’t last as long.
https://imgur.com/gallery/kIfVI7S
On top of the fact KSD established that her power level can rise while in Binary in the whole Builders War so
Gallery
Yes, it was rising because she was absorbing more energy. I know how her powers work, thank you.
And btw, this scan of her getting owned by fodder Builders while in Binary form looks like yet another shitty showing.
there’s no telling what a 100% Binary is capable of, or any reason why low and high showings can’t both be legit off the idea that her power level fluctuates by established mythos
That's just a cop-out to excuse her shit showings.
“Human/Kree hybrid power level increasing“ and then they begin to analyze her saying how much percentage of her power she’s using.
Ok.
It’s possible she poured out all her energy in Binary to KO Thor that just makes the planet level feat your claiming has context more credible though.
No, she explicitly said she needed to be amped by his energies to knock him out.
Theres really no context even in the original instance it states her own power was what destroyed the planet. Nitpicking and not liking the feat is the only reason it’s argued against
There literally is context in the very first scan.
Her energies were amplified. It wasn't her own power that did that.
“She generated enough power” Amplified radiance could just mean she was performing at 100% or arguably on how bright she appeared off the crystals. It was her own power though
No lol, it means her energies were boosted beyond her normal power output. Do you even know what the word "amplify" means?
You could even argue the later comic was a retcon too which should take precedence since it’s a retelling of the same story that takes place later.
“But my power did more than killed the Queen, it destroyed a world”
It wasn't a retcon, it was just an abridged retelling of these events.
Anyway you look at it, it was still Carol’s power.
No. She got completely drained by the "feat", the accomplishment required her energies to be boosted, whatever she did didn't even scratch Wolverine and other people who were in the same room or the crystals that were there, and the planet blew up long after she was done. It. Was. A. Chain. Reaction.
The idea of her being a planet buster is literally contradicted in the same issue when she gets beaten by random spaceships.
In regards to Thor all Kelly said was that It was Worthy Thor if I’m not mistaken. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t All-Father Thor. Which I’m fine if it wasn’t cause it makes more sense for it not to be. I’m just stating her comment doesn’t outright confirm it not to be All-Father Thor and based on Publishing Dates it’s possible it was.
Being all-father doesn't mean anything. Thor didn't have any Odinforce before Cates' run. Same Thor as the one who fought Carol (while holding back and continuously amping her, I should remind you) also lost to Terrax and got one-shot by Cap with Mjolnir.
You see how im trying to bring up an extreme lowend? Lmao what have you been doing this entire time...
Pointing out that Danvers doesn't have consistent showings period and is all over the place. By bringing up the showings that show how all over the place she is.
And the thing is, no matter how much you deny it, she is all over the place. During her stint as Captain Marvel, she had following showings (off the top of my head):
- beat Iron Man after an extended fight in Civil War II;
- beat Iron Man under Kelly after going Binary from absorbing his repulsors;
- got stalemated by War Machine;
- struggled with Ultimate Iron Man;
- fought a holding back Thor for hours, only won by using all the energy he amped her with during the battle;
- couldn't even scratch calm Doc Green with a barrage of hits and got one-shot;
- struggled with Manovar in the same issue where Crimson Dynamo absolutely stomped Manovar;
- was on the losing end of the fight against current She-Hulk, only won by using hax when she was distracted;
- got no sold by current Namor (for comparison, weakened Chulk could hurt current Namor with his hits);
- stomped Blastaar;
- was greately hurt by a single blast from Annihilus and failed to hurt him with an amped up blast, only tecnhically winning because he was separated from CCR;
- was hurt by a blast from Proxima Midnight more than Hyperion and Captain America were; visibly hurt her with a blast while in Binary mode;
- struggled to put Luke Cage down;
- Gamora drew blood from her;
- so did Aurora;
- got restrained by Sasquatch with one arm; needed to headbutt him to break free;
- got visibly hurt by Bushwacker;
- lost to fodder Builders while in Binary form;
- was shown to be inferior to Mahkizmo in both her base form and Binary form (when Rogue absorbed her powers);
- failed to hurt weakened Cho Hulk;
- got physically one-shot by Thanos while in Binary form; in the same issue Thanos' punch was shrugged of by Hulk and tanked by Thor; also in the same series Thanos required 3 hits to KO a weakened Black Bolt;
- KOed weakened Thanos as a part of a joint effort with a team that included several people more powerful than her (Human Torch, Spectrum, Blue Marvel, She-Hulk, America Chavez) and some others (War Machine, Medusa, Dazzler, Black Panther);
- one-shot Ironheart;
- beat Sindr somehow;
- was incapable of doing anything to Hercules with her blasts;
- as Binary, hurt Firelord with her physical attacks but was unable to hurt him with a blast; Firelord wasn't even figthing back.
This is a mess. She goes from stomping high tiers (Blastaar) or people significantly stronger than most high tiers (Sindr), to being able to hold her own against them despite being on a losing side (current She-Hulk, Firelord) to requiring significant amping to beat one (Thor) to being completely unable to hurt them and being shown clearly inferior to them (Doc Green, weakened Chulk, current Namor, Hercules, Annihilus; getting one-shot by Thanos in the same arc where he failed to one-shot high tiers fits there as well) to struggling against low high tiers (War Machine and Iron Man) to outright losing to them (Makhizmo) to struggling with with someone who a low high tier stomped (Manovar who got stomped by Crimson Dynamo) to struggling with shit ranging from mid to street tier (Ultimate Iron Man, Luke Cage, Aurora, Bushwacker, Gamora, Builders).
It's not helped by the fact that she was all over the place even before she became Captain Marvel. As Ms. Marvel, she:
- physically matched Super-Adaptoid with Sentry's powers and drew blood from her;
- got overpowered by Ares;
- twice;
- stomped Tiger Shark on one occasion;
- could barely hurt Tiger Shark on another and barely beat him by utilizing pressure points;
- got stomped by Namora;
- couldn't beat a Doombot while assisted by Luke Cage;
- lost to Wonder Man;
- got one-shot by Hyperion;
- got knocked out by some missile that Rulk threw at her;
- got walked over by Mindless Ones when assisted by Wonder Man, Ares and some other people;
- couldn't beat Doomsday Man with help of Iron Man and Giant-Man; in the same issue Doomsday Man got turned into scrap by half-dead Justice;
- got one-shot by Iron Man;
- got wrecked by War Machine;
- tore apart Iron Man's suits while tanking blasts from them;
- one-shot Iron Patriot;
- one-shot Grey Gargoyle once;
- failed to hurt him on another occasion and got one-shot;
- drew blood from Joe Fixit;
- got casually manhandled by Savage Hulk mid-bullrush;
- got one-shot by Blue Marvel, who failed to one-shot Wonder Man, Iron Man and Ares in the same issue and lost to weakened Sentry;
- somehow punched through Sentry-lvl Collective in Binary form;
- in Binary form lost to several spaceships;
- failed to do much damage to Rogue while bloodlusted and in Binary mode, got restrained by Colossus;
- in Binary mode went all-out against Cap Britain and didn't do much to him; he wasn't even fighting back;
- Rogue with her powers got one-shot by Gamora, Juggernaut, Hercules and Thor;
- punch from Rogue with her powers got no sold by Thor.
There's way more, but I bet you get the gist already. She is not a consistent high tier and never was, Binary or otherwise. Whatever high tier showings she gets are overshadowed by tons of sucking against literally anyone.
Mine at least actually make sense
No they don't. Claiming that a character who regularly goes up against Hulk, Surfer, Hercules and other high tiers and who already tanked hits from bloodlusted Thor can get a hole punched through him by Thor while amped is the defintion of nonsensical.
and aren’t Colossus holding Carol for a panel whose stating she doesn’t want to hurt him...
Breaking someone's grip with your strength is not something that requires hurting the opponent. She couldn't do that. She needed to use her energy projection to break out.
and Yeah id argue Namor has feats above both of them in regards to physical strength. You’re free to disagree though.
You can argue that, but you'd be dead wrong, since I literally posted a bunch of Ben's feats that crap all over feats of either Namor and Danvers and you either didn't even notice it or completely ignored it on purpose. So I will just post it again.
The problem here is you dismiss what you don’t like and state what you do like as valid. Even when there’s in-universe logic to make it plausible. Characters whose powerset varies aren’t good examples to credit your point.
The problem is you trying to paint Danvers as a consistent high tier even though she is anything but. And then try to claim he has any chance of comparing to actual high tier characters like Namor, Thing and Invisible Woman despite the fact that they have feats and consistency on their side.
I was curious about the Colossus instance but it’s nothing worth of mention either.
How ironic that you accused me of dismissing what I don't like and then do the exact same thing.
Firelord going all out or not is possible, subjective though given the heralds were on a mission to kill Starbrand and they were unable to do so. he held up his staff and blasted her.
It's not subjective at all, lol. Did you even read the damn issue? He attacked her two times in total, urged her to stand down, and then did nothing except talk despite Carol repeatedly attacking him. And then the fight stopped.
Gallery
He wasn't going all out, hell, he was barely even fighting. And he still looked superior seeing how his casual attack made her scream in pain while she was trying her best and only made him grunt with physical attacks and got her energy blast no sold completely.
I’m not to knowledgeable on Firelord so I don’t even know what kind of attack it was given no energy seemed to be dispersed out. But if it was an energy attack Carol logically should of been able to absorb it. It wasn’t an encounter where he easily handled her is the point overall.
Because he was barely fighting. He spent most of the fight talking.
Carol didn’t fight Machizmo in Binary form which is what I thought we were arguing.
Ok, this is the third time now you failed to properly read what I said. Let's do this again.
I said this:
Rogue while absorbing her powers and going Binary couldn't do much to Machizmo, a guy who got stalemated by slim She-Hulk back in the day (and who also manhandled Danvers)
And this is exactly what happened in the issue:
Gallery
She got her ass soundly kicked, in fact.
But you’re all over the place with some of this stuff.
Even then she KO’d the dude
Now you're just lying. He was fine and was just playing possum.
Gallery
In fact, he pretty much owned her in the very next issue, when he tanked two of her blows without problems while she was on her knees after one punch from him and could barely breath:
Gallery
Whose taken a beating from She-Hulk before her current amps ofcourse
Also Thanos wasn’t stated as being weakened in his second encounter with the Ultimates.
Even if he wasn't (which, considering how much trouble he had with them, he most definitely was), her Binary form was still outperformed by a punch from America Chavez.
And Carol knocked out Thanos which ever route you want to take either under Bendis in base form
Weakened Thanos, and she only did that with the help of a crapload of heroes, most of them being more powerful than her, and in the process two of them almost died. All she did was land the last attack on Thanos who was already on his knees.
And in fact, Thanos was more hurt by attacks from Human Torch and War Machine than he was from Binary's blast.
Vs Binary:
Vs Human Torch and War Machine:
or in Binary form under Ewing.
Awesome fanfiction, but that never happened.
TL;DR: Danvers is an inconsistent mess of a character who desperately wants to be a high tier, but gets weighted down by dozens of shit showings against high, mid and even street tiers. Sue still stomps her, just like Thing or Namor do.
@ecstaticgrace said:
@greyboi: The Cosmic Control Rod doesn’t amp Annihulus atleast I don’t think physically it just gives him immortality he’s afraid of dying.
Wrong. Before Fantastic Four vol.3 #19, taking away Annihilus' Cosmic Rod left him powerless:
When he lost the CCR back in Fantastic Four #182, he was vary of regular fire and repeatedly admitted that he was powerless:
Gallery
So yeah, he does become powerless without it. Or at least he did back then.
Reason why he fears losing it. It doesn’t change the way you tried to turn it into a low showing for her.
Considering that she's supposedly capable of wrecking Blastaar, who is Annihilus' peer? Yeah, that was a low showing.
It’s Annihilus the guy is a legit team buster.
No. A high tier at best.
She wasn’t knocked out after he blasted her she was dazed
She was out long enough that Mar-Vell needed to step in to fight Annihilus and get his ass kicked. And that's made worse by the fact that she is capable of absorbing energy and was still out of the fight. And then when she blasted him back, amped by his own energies, he didn't even grunt in pain.
and took more damage than he did when she retaliated but he also was in fear of his life after he lost the rod because his immortality was in question.
He was entirely powerless, not just mortal.
I don’t remember the Colossus instance
but a lot of characters have low showings I don’t see it as a bad thing. Captain Britain varies in power level. It’s all on how much he believes in himself the dude took on the Phoenix Force before AvX..
Except Captain Britain sucks consisntently. All his showings besides the Phoenix Force one (which is so high above his regular showings it might as well be dismissed as an outlier) are trash. He couldn't KO Wrecker with a sucker punch, he needed 3 hits to KO Bulldozer, he was completely unable to hurt Thor while going all-out, needed help to KO Colossus and absolutely failed to hurt Doom.
I’d argue Binary’s highs outnumber her low ends. Which from your mentions sounds just to be colossus.
Failing to do much to Cap Britain while going all out is as low as it gets. Rogue with Ms. Marvel's powers tanked a sucker punch from her that sent her to the Moon and was only mildly surprised. Rogue while absorbing her powers and going Binary couldn't do much to Machizmo, a guy who got stalemated by slim She-Hulk back in the day (and who also manhandled Danvers). Binary couldn't even scratch weakened Thanos while America Chavez drew blood from him in the same issue.
Firelord didn’t do anything to her either in their brief encounter.
She was screaming in pain when he was casually blasting her. When she blasted him, he no sold it.
It wasn’t one sided which is a good showing because like you said he’s Herc/Thor level which a base Carol admittedly isn’t. But Binary is so far above base Carol.
Yeah, because Firelord wasn't going all out and trying to get her to stand down. He didn't even try to fight her physically. And because the fight was brief as hell. All it showed is that she can, while in her strongest form, somewhat hurt Thor/Herc lvl opponents with her attacks. That's not very great.
If you want to argue that based on this showing she is on the outskirts of the Herc/Thor lvl physically, then she's still nowhere near strong enough to compete with Sue.
I cant disagree with current Namor being above base Carol because of how she performed against him. In the current Avengers title. Despite the Hydroman amp though I still think Namor is more powerful in the ocean than he is on dry land.
Not sure what's your point here. Even without the Hydroman amp Namor is consistently stronger than Carol, Binary or not.
Chain reaction or not. It was her energy output that caused the planet to be destroyed.
Not how it works. By that logic a dynamite blowing up is equivalent to the match's flame because the match was used to light up the fuse.
On top of the fact she wasn’t even directly attacking the planet to begin with she was hitting the Brood Queen and the planet couldn’t take it.
And still all she did was start a chain reaction, not blow up the planet outright.
How is destroying a city that’s visible from space not impressive?
I'm going to need to see scans to see what you find so impressive about this.
She knocked out Thor in Binary though is my point.
Her power level in Binary form is not static. She went Binary from weak shit like blasts that couldn't KO Cap or random energy guns too. Obviously her going Binary from the energy Thor spent on her from hours of fighting would boost her above regular level, and she still needed to pour all of it to KO him.
which I believe you suggested Binary wasn’t impressive.
It's not as impressive because there was context.
I don’t think Ben has any personal feats to put him above Carol strength wise.
I don't remember Carol having any strength feats that were remotely impressive. Not even something on the level of, I dunno, casually overpowering and breaking a press that could shatter a small mountain, casually swinging a hypercompressed skyscraper or overpowering and destroying a press that could push through a planet (all things that Ben did, casually at that).
And that's not even mentioning the impressive shit.
Scaling is a sketchy way to judge things
No it isn't. The only reason you say that is because Namor and Thing consistently match high tiers (and Sue overpowers them consistently) while Carol fluctuates from struggling with Luke Cage to wrecking someone who owned War Thor and can't get consistent high tier feats to save her life.
cause I could also bring up the fact an amped Thing got oneshotted by Thor and
Bad writing. Said "amped Thing" couldn't even beat Spider-Man. And that's ignoring the fact that he had tanked hits from bloodlusted Thor before, tanked hits from beings stronger than Thor and that Thor failed to one-shot weaker on equally powerful beings while bloodlusted and sometimes even amped.
Carol fought All-Father Thor for hours.
It was regular Thor, Kelly confirmed it wasn't Odinforce Thor so your point is moot. That and Thor was holding back and was amping her all the time.
You see how that works?
I see how you're trying to bring up an extreme low end and a showing with heavy context to prove your point about scaling and fail at that.
Namor without scaling probably has better strength feats than both though I’ll admit.
Not really.
@hellionvulcan: yeah, thanks for posting the scan that shows that Apocalypse is so bad he didn't even manage to hit Sue's field with a blast.
Of course he never broke her field. If he was capable of doing that, he would have just broken the one she used to protect Franklin (and the whole "I can't move" thing clearly refers to Apocalypse failing to move his hand to touch Franklin). Instead he needed to go for the source of the forcefield - Sue - and failed to even tag her with a blast.
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