NO POWERS: Batman vs Wonder Woman

@WillPayton said:

With no powers I'd go with Batman.

WW may in fact be the best fighter, but that's because she has powers. Batman has trained to be the peak of human potential, and he has a lot of experience fighting as such. Even with WWs training, she's really not experienced fighting without the powers, and that alone will cause her problems. Fighting is about doing what you've trained for and what you do instinctively. This means WW will be doing things that work normally, but make no sense without powers and as a normal human woman.

So Batman has more strength and more experience fighting as a non-powered human. He probably also knows more forms of martial arts. Wonder Woman, for all her skills, probably relies a lot on her powers like Superman does.

Batman wins.

Diana has fought without powers before and has fought Batman level opponents with her powers while holding back, therefore that theory is defunct and rebutted.

Also knowing more styles doesn't equate to being a better martial artist. Just because you know how to drive both a stick and an automatic doesn't mean you're a better driver than me.

For myself the only true battle I consider a tossup is the last one as I feel the author of the thread gave Diana equipment that I believe trumps Batman in the first two rounds.

@Evil Incarnate said:

@WillPayton said:

With no powers I'd go with Batman.

WW may in fact be the best fighter, but that's because she has powers. Batman has trained to be the peak of human potential, and he has a lot of experience fighting as such. Even with WWs training, she's really not experienced fighting without the powers, and that alone will cause her problems. Fighting is about doing what you've trained for and what you do instinctively. This means WW will be doing things that work normally, but make no sense without powers and as a normal human woman.

So Batman has more strength and more experience fighting as a non-powered human. He probably also knows more forms of martial arts. Wonder Woman, for all her skills, probably relies a lot on her powers like Superman does.

Batman wins.

Diana has fought without powers before and has fought Batman level opponents with her powers while holding back, therefore that theory is defunct and rebutted.

How much experience fighting without powers does WW have? Who has she defeated fighting without powers? While simply fighting without powers at some point does constitute "experience", I was referring to extended experience... such as years-worth of experience.

Unless WW has some significant amount of experience fighting without powers and feats to show that she can win against someone on Batman's level, I still have to go with Bruce.

@Evil Incarnate said:

Also knowing more styles doesn't equate to being a better martial artist. Just because you know how to drive both a stick and an automatic doesn't mean you're a better driver than me.

Actually, all other things being equal, knowing more styles does equate to being a better martial artist. You analogy is flawed. Knowing how to drive stick doesnt help you if you're driving automatic. Knowing more styles would only not help you if you couldnt use those styles. So, knowing Karate would not help you in a boxing match. But, knowing boxing AND Karate in an MMA fight is definitely better than knowing boxing alone.

@WillPayton said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

@WillPayton said:

With no powers I'd go with Batman.

WW may in fact be the best fighter, but that's because she has powers. Batman has trained to be the peak of human potential, and he has a lot of experience fighting as such. Even with WWs training, she's really not experienced fighting without the powers, and that alone will cause her problems. Fighting is about doing what you've trained for and what you do instinctively. This means WW will be doing things that work normally, but make no sense without powers and as a normal human woman.

So Batman has more strength and more experience fighting as a non-powered human. He probably also knows more forms of martial arts. Wonder Woman, for all her skills, probably relies a lot on her powers like Superman does.

Batman wins.

Diana has fought without powers before and has fought Batman level opponents with her powers while holding back, therefore that theory is defunct and rebutted.

How much experience fighting without powers does WW have? Who has she defeated fighting without powers? While simply fighting without powers at some point does constitute "experience", I was referring to extended experience... such as years-worth of experience.

Unless WW has some significant amount of experience fighting without powers and feats to show that she can win against someone on Batman's level, I still have to go with Bruce.

@Evil Incarnate said:

Also knowing more styles doesn't equate to being a better martial artist. Just because you know how to drive both a stick and an automatic doesn't mean you're a better driver than me.

Actually, all other things being equal, knowing more styles does equate to being a better martial artist. You analogy is flawed. Knowing how to drive stick doesnt help you if you're driving automatic. Knowing more styles would only not help you if you couldnt use those styles. So, knowing Karate would not help you in a boxing match. But, knowing boxing AND Karate in an MMA fight is definitely better than knowing boxing alone.

Diana has trained with and defeated all the other Amazons on her island. She's trained and beaten Batman and vice versa while sparring. She tapered her strength to their level as to not to hurt them. Seriously you're making it seem like she's Superman and would just be lost without her powers.

Perhaps I should have defined that analogy better.While it arguable that Batman knows more styles it's also arguable that Diana has trained longer. So it boils down to his vast knowledge of different style to her vast experience with training. In this it doesn't necessarily define who the better master artist is.

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana has trained with and defeated all the other Amazons on her island. She's trained and beaten Batman and vice versa while sparring. She tapered her strength to their level as to not to hurt them. Seriously you're making it seem like she's Superman and would just be lost without her powers.

Perhaps I should have defined that analogy better.While it arguable that Batman knows more styles it's also arguable that Diana has trained longer. So it boils down to his vast knowledge of different style to her vast experience with training. In this it doesn't necessarily define who the better master artist is.

No doubt Diana has trained longer, but what I'm saying is that how you train matters. In any sport you want to train how you'll compete, because your brain and body become adapted to that set of conditions. Diana training longer with powers just means that she's very, very good at fighting with powers. Does some of that translate to non-powers? Yes, of course. But, Batman has trained his whole life and mastered fighting with no powers.

Batman

@WillPayton said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana has trained with and defeated all the other Amazons on her island. She's trained and beaten Batman and vice versa while sparring. She tapered her strength to their level as to not to hurt them. Seriously you're making it seem like she's Superman and would just be lost without her powers.

Perhaps I should have defined that analogy better.While it arguable that Batman knows more styles it's also arguable that Diana has trained longer. So it boils down to his vast knowledge of different style to her vast experience with training. In this it doesn't necessarily define who the better master artist is.

No doubt Diana has trained longer, but what I'm saying is that how you train matters. In any sport you want to train how you'll compete, because your brain and body become adapted to that set of conditions. Diana training longer with powers just means that she's very, very good at fighting with powers. Does some of that translate to non-powers? Yes, of course. But, Batman has trained his whole life and mastered fighting with no powers.

All this means is that Diana won't have to hold back physically because she'll no longer fear killing him as easily as she normally would, but that's just my take on it.

@Evil Incarnate said:

@WillPayton said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana has trained with and defeated all the other Amazons on her island. She's trained and beaten Batman and vice versa while sparring. She tapered her strength to their level as to not to hurt them. Seriously you're making it seem like she's Superman and would just be lost without her powers.

Perhaps I should have defined that analogy better.While it arguable that Batman knows more styles it's also arguable that Diana has trained longer. So it boils down to his vast knowledge of different style to her vast experience with training. In this it doesn't necessarily define who the better master artist is.

No doubt Diana has trained longer, but what I'm saying is that how you train matters. In any sport you want to train how you'll compete, because your brain and body become adapted to that set of conditions. Diana training longer with powers just means that she's very, very good at fighting with powers. Does some of that translate to non-powers? Yes, of course. But, Batman has trained his whole life and mastered fighting with no powers.

All this means is that Diana won't have to hold back physically because she'll no longer fear killing him as easily as she normally would, but that's just my take on it.

What she can do and what she will do are different things.

This is why I said earlier than in sports you train like you compete, because what you do in the competition, or the fight, is what you learn to do during training. If WW has trained herself her whole life to hold back while fighting, that's what she will do.

Same thing if it's the other way around and Batman got Superman powers. He'd be kicking at full power and destroying stuff without intending it, because that's just how he's trained to fight.

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana has fought without powers before and has fought Batman level opponents with her powers while holding back, therefore that theory is defunct and rebutted.

Also knowing more styles doesn't equate to being a better martial artist. Just because you know how to drive both a stick and an automatic doesn't mean you're a better driver than me.

For myself the only true battle I consider a tossup is the last one as I feel the author of the thread gave Diana equipment that I believe trumps Batman in the first two rounds.

Scans?

She went powerless for about 10 solo issue i dont remember her fighting anyone noteworthy apart from few thungs and cannon fodders, which instance are you referring to?

@Killemall said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana has fought without powers before and has fought Batman level opponents with her powers while holding back, therefore that theory is defunct and rebutted.

Also knowing more styles doesn't equate to being a better martial artist. Just because you know how to drive both a stick and an automatic doesn't mean you're a better driver than me.

For myself the only true battle I consider a tossup is the last one as I feel the author of the thread gave Diana equipment that I believe trumps Batman in the first two rounds.

Scans?

She went powerless for about 10 solo issue i dont remember her fighting anyone noteworthy apart from few thungs and cannon fodders, which instance are you referring to?

Same for me too please. (Scans)

I believe Bruce Wayne wins this. Or Wonder Woman would be one of the best fighters in the DCU, which is invalid...

Although Diana IS a very good hand to hand combatant, she just isn't on Batman's level. But it sure as hell will help in her fights (with her powers)! :D

Most of her enemies on her level tend to rely on their powers than also on skill.

Vouile

@Killemall said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana has fought without powers before and has fought Batman level opponents with her powers while holding back, therefore that theory is defunct and rebutted.

Also knowing more styles doesn't equate to being a better martial artist. Just because you know how to drive both a stick and an automatic doesn't mean you're a better driver than me.

For myself the only true battle I consider a tossup is the last one as I feel the author of the thread gave Diana equipment that I believe trumps Batman in the first two rounds.

Scans?

She went powerless for about 10 solo issue i dont remember her fighting anyone noteworthy apart from few thungs and cannon fodders, which instance are you referring to?

I think you might have been confused by what I wrote. I didn't say that she fought Batman level opponents while powerless, but that she's fought them while having her powers, but holding back. Two instances that come to mind right away are her fighting Artemis (who fought and beat Batman in H2H, he had to resort to knockout gas to beat her) and sparring with Killer Croc, Cheetah and Lady Shiva. I'll see if I can dig up scans later.

As I've said before most people just come in and without reading the OP just blindly say Batman. The OP has three different scenarios in the first two I believe that Diana has equipment that she's better at using than Batman is, which is why I chose her. The third and final battle for me can go either way.

@WillPayton said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

@WillPayton said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana has trained with and defeated all the other Amazons on her island. She's trained and beaten Batman and vice versa while sparring. She tapered her strength to their level as to not to hurt them. Seriously you're making it seem like she's Superman and would just be lost without her powers.

Perhaps I should have defined that analogy better.While it arguable that Batman knows more styles it's also arguable that Diana has trained longer. So it boils down to his vast knowledge of different style to her vast experience with training. In this it doesn't necessarily define who the better master artist is.

No doubt Diana has trained longer, but what I'm saying is that how you train matters. In any sport you want to train how you'll compete, because your brain and body become adapted to that set of conditions. Diana training longer with powers just means that she's very, very good at fighting with powers. Does some of that translate to non-powers? Yes, of course. But, Batman has trained his whole life and mastered fighting with no powers.

All this means is that Diana won't have to hold back physically because she'll no longer fear killing him as easily as she normally would, but that's just my take on it.

What she can do and what she will do are different things.

This is why I said earlier than in sports you train like you compete, because what you do in the competition, or the fight, is what you learn to do during training. If WW has trained herself her whole life to hold back while fighting, that's what she will do.

Same thing if it's the other way around and Batman got Superman powers. He'd be kicking at full power and destroying stuff without intending it, because that's just how he's trained to fight.

Not true Batman himself holds back because he's a superhero. If he didn't he'd be killing some of the people he fights. PIS/CIS is off in these fights so your hypothesis that she won't fight with her full strength because she's used to holding back doesn't hold water in this argument.

Batman all 3 rounds.

@Evil Incarnate said:

I think you might have been confused by what I wrote. I didn't say that she fought Batman level opponents while powerless, but that she's fought them while having her powers, but holding back. Two instances that come to mind right away are her fighting Artemis (who fought and beat Batman in H2H, he had to resort to knockout gas to beat her) and sparring with Killer Croc, Cheetah and Lady Shiva. I'll see if I can dig up scans later.

As I've said before most people just come in and without reading the OP just blindly say Batman. The OP has three different scenarios in the first two I believe that Diana has equipment that she's better at using than Batman is, which is why I chose her. The third and final battle for me can go either way.

I dont get it, none of Wonder Woman opponents are known to be that skilled. Cheetah is fast , but wonder woman has pretty much always always been been stronger and durable for Cheetah. Lady Shiva instance i have not yet seen but sparring Lady Shiva doesnt automatically make you as good.

As far as i am concerned Bruce would win all 3 round simply because he has more skill showings compared to Wonder Woman. While Wonder Woman is more skilled than guys like Superman or Captain Marvel, its unfair to compare her skill against a guy with plays superheroes solely based on his skills. Look at it this way, No man's Land batman fought a mob of 20 people, could you show me an instance of Wonder Woman being able to 20 people together with same physical stats as wonder woman? Do you honestly think she could?

Warrior born vs Warrior made
Round 1:
Diana get shield and sword
Bruce gets katana and ninja gauntlets
Round 2:
Diana gets wrist bands
Bruce gets batarangs
Round 3:
They fight with there mits

Round 1: Bruce

Round 2: Bruce

Round 3: Bruce

Bruce wins all battles, in a somewhat tough battle.

Wonder Woman would arguably be within the top 10 DCU fighters if she could beat Bruce. I mean she hasn't done this:

@Killemall said:

No man's Land batman fought a mob of 20 people, could you show me an instance of Wonder Woman being able to 20 people together with same physical stats as wonder woman? Do you honestly think she could?

And you're right Killemall, she can't do it.

So Bruce Wayne wins this for the majority.

Vouile

@Killemall said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

I think you might have been confused by what I wrote. I didn't say that she fought Batman level opponents while powerless, but that she's fought them while having her powers, but holding back. Two instances that come to mind right away are her fighting Artemis (who fought and beat Batman in H2H, he had to resort to knockout gas to beat her) and sparring with Killer Croc, Cheetah and Lady Shiva. I'll see if I can dig up scans later.

As I've said before most people just come in and without reading the OP just blindly say Batman. The OP has three different scenarios in the first two I believe that Diana has equipment that she's better at using than Batman is, which is why I chose her. The third and final battle for me can go either way.

I dont get it, none of Wonder Woman opponents are known to be that skilled. Cheetah is fast , but wonder woman has pretty much always always been been stronger and durable for Cheetah. Lady Shiva instance i have not yet seen but sparring Lady Shiva doesnt automatically make you as good.

As far as i am concerned Bruce would win all 3 round simply because he has more skill showings compared to Wonder Woman. While Wonder Woman is more skilled than guys like Superman or Captain Marvel, its unfair to compare her skill against a guy with plays superheroes solely based on his skills. Look at it this way, No man's Land batman fought a mob of 20 people, could you show me an instance of Wonder Woman being able to 20 people together with same physical stats as wonder woman? Do you honestly think she could?

So to you Batman has shown more skill with ninja gauntlets and a kitana than Diana has with a sword and shield and more skill with a batarang than she has with her bracelets? I can concede the final fight as it's straight up, but the other two are with equipment that Diana has shown more skill with and most people are just saying Batman because he's Batman.

Could she defeat 20 people that had her exact powerset? Nope, but can you prove the entire mob in No Man's Land were equal to Batman? Any case in which Batman could do so without prep or a plot device would clearly be PIS/CIS, which Batman is known for.

Logically, Wonder Woman would trash Bruce.

Just a shame that he's a walking plot device.

@Evil Incarnate said:

So to you Batman has shown more skill with ninja gauntlets and a kitana than Diana has with a sword and shield and more skill with a batarang than she has with her bracelets?

I do not know where the question is actually coming from, i will wait for you to clarify. The way i see it, and do correct me if i am wrong, round 1 Diana has a shield and a sword where Batman has Katana and Ninja Gauntlet, doesnt change the fact that Batman has throughout his history shown better skill on his own. Its not a pure demonstration of sword skill vs batarang, but rather 2 people with 2 weapons fighting using their skill.

Lets look at an example, a very trained fighter in Dc universe is Jason Todd. If you give Jason exact same weaponary as sword and shield and Batman absolutely none, who do you think would come out as a victor? I think Batman can take her all 3 round because i think batman, without any gadgets whatsoever is still far more skilled , a better fighter, likely faster than Wonder Woman with all the items together once you take away her magic. And this is based on the fact that 10 solo issue wonder woman went without her powers as Diana Prince, she hasnt done much of anything.

I can concede the final fight as it's straight up, but the other two are with equipment that Diana has shown more skill with and most people are just saying Batman because he's Batman.

I dont know what reason most people are giving, i think Batman wins because he simply has shown more battle prowess than what Wonder Woman has.

No man's Land batman fought a mob of 20 people, could you show me an instance of Wonder Woman being able to 20 people together with same physical stats as wonder woman? Do you honestly think she could?

Could she defeat 20 people that had her exact powerset? Nope, but can you prove the entire mob in No Man's Land were equal to Batman?

I dont understand the question, none of the mob people are super-human nor is Batman. If you are saying but batman is stronger, faster, more skilled, its all because of his training rather than having endowed with power, while Wonder Woman's power comes from being blessed by the gods.

Also if you notice i never said exact powerset, why, because Wonder Woman herself has amassed skills throughout her carrer, and stuffs like muscle memory, but rather a person with same physical stats, say Power Girl without her freeze breath and heatvision.

Any case in which Batman could do so without prep or a plot device would clearly be PIS/CIS, which Batman is known for.

Might i ask why you consider such a showing PIS when its consistent to what Batman has done throughout his career?

@Mattersuit said:

Logically, Wonder Woman would trash Bruce.

Just a shame that he's a walking plot device.

This

@Killemall said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

So to you Batman has shown more skill with ninja gauntlets and a kitana than Diana has with a sword and shield and more skill with a batarang than she has with her bracelets?

I do not know where the question is actually coming from, i will wait for you to clarify. The way i see it, and do correct me if i am wrong, round 1 Diana has a shield and a sword where Batman has Katana and Ninja Gauntlet, doesnt change the fact that Batman has throughout his history shown better skill on his own. Its not a pure demonstration of sword skill vs batarang, but rather 2 people with 2 weapons fighting using their skill.

Lets look at an example, a very trained fighter in Dc universe is Jason Todd. If you give Jason exact same weaponary as sword and shield and Batman absolutely none, who do you think would come out as a victor? I think Batman can take her all 3 round because i think batman, without any gadgets whatsoever is still far more skilled , a better fighter, likely faster than Wonder Woman with all the items together once you take away her magic. And this is based on the fact that 10 solo issue wonder woman went without her powers as Diana Prince, she hasnt done much of anything.

I can concede the final fight as it's straight up, but the other two are with equipment that Diana has shown more skill with and most people are just saying Batman because he's Batman.

I dont know what reason most people are giving, i think Batman wins because he simply has shown more battle prowess than what Wonder Woman has.

No man's Land batman fought a mob of 20 people, could you show me an instance of Wonder Woman being able to 20 people together with same physical stats as wonder woman? Do you honestly think she could?

Could she defeat 20 people that had her exact powerset? Nope, but can you prove the entire mob in No Man's Land were equal to Batman?

I dont understand the question, none of the mob people are super-human nor is Batman. If you are saying but batman is stronger, faster, more skilled, its all because of his training rather than having endowed with power, while Wonder Woman's power comes from being blessed by the gods.

Also if you notice i never said exact powerset, why, because Wonder Woman herself has amassed skills throughout her carrer, and stuffs like muscle memory, but rather a person with same physical stats, say Power Girl without her freeze breath and heatvision.

Any case in which Batman could do so without prep or a plot device would clearly be PIS/CIS, which Batman is known for.

Might i ask why you consider such a showing PIS when its consistent to what Batman has done throughout his career?

Diana is believed to be one of the top melee fighter within DC while Batman is believed to be one of the best H2H combatants. This isn't Jason Tood who's trained 15+ years, but a person who has been trained her entire life and has countless experience with swords and shields vs someone who occasionally uses them. Bruce Lee is a better H2H fighter than Albert Axelrod (world champion fencer), but that doesn't mean that if you gave them both swords that Bruce would automatically win.

If your question is could Diana take on a group of people within her same physical level than I beleive the answer is yes. She's fought an army of Doomsday clones. You mention the mob of people Batman faught, but do you know if they had similiar physical stats to him?

Batman has also routinely stood up to Superman, Wonder Woman, Darkseid, etc. Just because he does so often doesn't mean it isn't PIS/CIS.

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana is believed to be one of the top melee fighter within DC while Batman is believed to be one of the best H2H combatants.

anything to prove that? I would love to see. A bio, a scan, an issue number.

This isn't Jason Tood who's trained 15+ years, but a person who has been trained her entire life and has countless experience with swords and shields vs someone who occasionally uses them.

As a street level he has better feats than Wonder Woman, i see no reason to believe Wonder Woman is more skilled. You know who else have trained their entire life, Hercules. Are you telling me , be it DC or Marvel, Hercules is more skilled than Batman?

You want to make a case do in so based on showings not hyperboles about their life.

Bruce Lee is a better H2H fighter than Albert Axelrod (world champion fencer), but that doesn't mean that if you gave them both swords that Bruce would automatically win.

Would be a little different if Bruce Lee had spent all his life traning, has plenty of achievements (feats), while Axelrod was born class 100 at near light speed and tranined all his life at that power level and all of a sudden, poof, got depowered. I would say under that condition, Bruce would stomp him with relative ease.

If your question is could Diana take on a group of people within her same physical level than I beleive the answer is yes. She's fought an army of Doomsday clones.

Scans?

And before you show scans from Superman/ Batman : A girl from new Krypton, she didnt fight a LOT of them and the Doomsday Clones army got incenerated by one morals off heat vision of Superman, sort of totally disproves them being on the same level as Diana i would think.

You mention the mob of people Batman faught, but do you know if they had similiar physical stats to him?

Give me one reason to believe Batman had better stats than the mob which he did not earn because of his training.

Batman has also routinely stood up to Superman, Wonder Woman, Darkseid, etc. Just because he does so often doesn't mean it isn't PIS/CIS.

Apart from Superman/ Batman and Final Crisis depowered version , could you show me one instance where Batman has stood up to Darksied?

Also could you show me a scan where Batman "fought" and did well against Superman.

@Killemall: I'll wait for people to come in and complain one way or another about this.

Your scenario of Axelrod suddenly being depowered and having a tough time is more akin to Superman than Diana. Diana didn't train against any of the Amazons using her full strength if she did they'd clearly be dead. She tempered her stats to match her opponents. Here she is fighting dozens of the of demons with her sword while being depowered. The third image Diana stats that they're outnumbered 20 to 1 so there goes your mob. Also note that in the fifth the Oracle informs him that to kill the demon lord he would have to acquire three particular swordsmen capable of doing so. Those three were Beowulf, Claw and Wonder Woman. That in itself speaks highly of her swordsmanship.

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF01.jpg[/IMG].

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF02.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF03.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF04.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF05.jpg[/IMG]

@Killemall said:

You mention the mob of people Batman faught, but do you know if they had similiar physical stats to him?

Give me one reason to believe Batman had better stats than the mob which he did not earn because of his training.

You're the one that brought up the mob so it's up to you to prove that they were "worthy" opponents of Batman.

@Killemall said:

Apart from Superman/ Batman and Final Crisis depowered version , could you show me one instance where Batman has stood up to Darksied?

Also could you show me a scan where Batman "fought" and did well against Superman.

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BatmanTheDarkKnight01.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BatmanTheDarkKnight02.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BatmanTheDarkKnight03.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BatmanTheDarkKnight04.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BatmanTheDarkKnight05.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BatmanTheDarkKnight06.jpg[/IMG]

@Evil Incarnate said:

@Killemall: I'll wait for people to come in and complain one way or another about this.

Your scenario of Axelrod suddenly being depowered and having a tough time is more akin to Superman than Diana. Diana didn't train against any of the Amazons using her full strength if she did they'd clearly be dead. She tempered her stats to match her opponents. Here she is fighting dozens of the of demons with her sword while being depowered. The third image Diana stats that they're outnumbered 20 to 1 so there goes your mob. Also note that in the fifth the Oracle informs him that to kill the demon lord he would have to acquire three particular swordsmen capable of doing so. Those three were Beowulf, Claw and Wonder Woman. That in itself speaks highly of her swordsmanship.

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF01.jpg[/IMG].

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF02.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF03.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF04.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BEOWULF05.jpg[/IMG]

any proof of that, because Wonder Woman can turn off her powers at will.

This is one of the issues from her volume 3 i remember reading it and to the best of my knoweledge she wasnt depowered. If you would be kind enough to give me the issue number i could come back with feats to show you.

You're the one that brought up the mob so it's up to you to prove that they were "worthy" opponents of Batman.

you totally missed my point didnt you. Batman is and has always been a normal human, so were the mob. Any advantage batman has over them is purely based on his training. He never got gods to bless him with powers. So they were humans, he is human, same stats.

[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/crazysexycool206/BatmanTheDarkKnight01.jpg[/IMG]

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Have you read the issue in question?

Firstly its NEW 52, secondly you point was it happens "consistently", and thirdy, Batman was under a hallucination drug (new Venom from Bane) and he sees him making superman bleed we dont even know if that was true.

Can you please, at the very list not mis-interpret scans. I was hoping the forth scan where he makes Superman bleed was enough to show there was something wrong and the very last scan of Superman being ok, would tip people off.

So what do we mean with the statement: No powers? I think this needs to be cleared up specially for WW.

Batman has no super powers so I assume that we only have equipment restrictions for each rounds, right?

And what do we mean when we say WW with no powers? Do we mean she has the skill of WW and the strength + agility of a fit woman? Or no power means a base level amazon, and are amazons at base level even stronger+faster than a normal fit woman? (I would assume from various WW comics that a baseline amazon is stronger and faster than a normal human, and assume that this is the physical attributes of WW with no powers) If I am way off with this assumption just let me know, I might be just confused with various portrayal of amazons from comics to movies and cartoons.

If we go by the baseline of WW being a fit woman, she could only win/tie the first round due to her skills with traditional weapons (Yah Batman knows how to use weapons also, be he hasn't gone to war and fought with weapons the way amazons have during their lives). If we assume that this is a brawl between a highly trained man vs woman, I would take 200+ pound world class trained male fighter over any world class trained woman (Yes I know that "normal" woman like Lady Shiva and Cass have been shown to best pretty much any other male fighter in h2h combat, but I don't think that applies here due to the fact that those characters have an explicit skill to watch and counter movements and attacks). If she is just an amazon and we assume that at a base level they are stronger than a normal human, then she definitely wins the first round and the other 2 would be close (could be tie at best for Batman) but I would give the advantage to WW (batman might have mastered various MA but he wasn't trained by A) Amazons warriors who have been developing their fighting style for thousands of years and B) the god of war

In my head WW should be one of the best if not the best fighter in DC when it comes to skills, strategy and experience. I know that's not how many writers have written her and that other characters (like Lady shiva) have shown better feats in h2h combat, but the best amazon warrior who was personally trained by the god of war should pretty much best anyone in combat with the same level of physical strength and speed.

@Vouile said:

@Killemall said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

Diana has fought without powers before and has fought Batman level opponents with her powers while holding back, therefore that theory is defunct and rebutted.

Also knowing more styles doesn't equate to being a better martial artist. Just because you know how to drive both a stick and an automatic doesn't mean you're a better driver than me.

For myself the only true battle I consider a tossup is the last one as I feel the author of the thread gave Diana equipment that I believe trumps Batman in the first two rounds.

Scans?

She went powerless for about 10 solo issue i dont remember her fighting anyone noteworthy apart from few thungs and cannon fodders, which instance are you referring to?

Same for me too please. (Scans)

I believe Bruce Wayne wins this. Or Wonder Woman would be one of the best fighters in the DCU, which is invalid...

Although Diana IS a very good hand to hand combatant, she just isn't on Batman's level. But it sure as hell will help in her fights (with her powers)! :D

Most of her enemies on her level tend to rely on their powers than also on skill.

Vouile

By term fighter I'm going to assume to mean martial artist.

Some of these rounds are with weapons. Wonder Woman is considered the BEST melee combatant in the world.

At least Batman thinks so:

As for hand to hand I see Batman taking it. Wonder Woman has more experience Batman in practice has more acutally live training by beating up his rogues gallery on a reagular basis.

@Quartermaim said:

By term fighter I'm going to assume to mean martial artist.

Some of these rounds are with weapons. Wonder Woman is considered the BEST melee combatant in the world.

At least Batman thinks so:

As for hand to hand I see Batman taking it. Wonder Woman has more experience Batman in practice has more acutally live training by beating up his rogues gallery on a reagular basis.

Wonder woman is one of the strongest, fastest and most durable person in the DC universe, that makes her one of the top person in a meele (h2h), the question being asked is skill.

WW stomps.

@Killemall: being a long time RPGer I consider Melee to mean with a melee weapon. Hand to hand is another animal. But that is my take.

@DCsuperman0007 said:

WW stomps.

reason?

I can think of 1 good reason why WW should win, let alone stomp.

@Killemall said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

@Killemall: I'll wait for people to come in and complain one way or another about this.

Your scenario of Axelrod suddenly being depowered and having a tough time is more akin to Superman than Diana. Diana didn't train against any of the Amazons using her full strength if she did they'd clearly be dead. She tempered her stats to match her opponents. Here she is fighting dozens of the of demons with her sword while being depowered. The third image Diana stats that they're outnumbered 20 to 1 so there goes your mob. Also note that in the fifth the Oracle informs him that to kill the demon lord he would have to acquire three particular swordsmen capable of doing so. Those three were Beowulf, Claw and Wonder Woman. That in itself speaks highly of her swordsmanship.

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any proof of that, because Wonder Woman can turn off her powers at will.

This is one of the issues from her volume 3 i remember reading it and to the best of my knoweledge she wasnt depowered. If you would be kind enough to give me the issue number i could come back with feats to show you.

You're the one that brought up the mob so it's up to you to prove that they were "worthy" opponents of Batman.

you totally missed my point didnt you. Batman is and has always been a normal human, so were the mob. Any advantage batman has over them is purely based on his training. He never got gods to bless him with powers. So they were humans, he is human, same stats.

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Have you read the issue in question?

Firstly its NEW 52, secondly you point was it happens "consistently", and thirdy, Batman was under a hallucination drug (new Venom from Bane) and he sees him making superman bleed we dont even know if that was true.

Can you please, at the very list not mis-interpret scans. I was hoping the forth scan where he makes Superman bleed was enough to show there was something wrong and the very last scan of Superman being ok, would tip people off.

The very first scan she specifically states she doesn't have her strength here. I'm not quite sure how you overlooked that comment. Diana's powers fluctuated in each plane they went to. In the first one, which is posted she states that she doesn't have her strength. The second with Claw she started to become part demon and couldn't use her lasso. In the final one she was actually able to fly adn then took the demon lord into the modern world to finish him.

I didn't miss that point, I was going over the fact that there have been a few people stating the most they've seen her due impressively while depowered was fight an angry mob, which they said they weren't impressed by, but Batman does it and it's used as proof of his mastery.

Yes I know in this issue Superman is fighting control of Ivy and that Batman had a kryptonite ring, but given the fact that Wonder Woman even with a K-ring wasn't able to truly hurt Superman for the most part I call PIS. I'm actually a Batman fan, but a HUGE amount of his feats even while consistent are PIS/CIS ridden when it comes to fighting people he shouldn't.

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@Killemall: batman said out loud WW is the best fighter in the world.

Wonder Woman might arguably be more skilled than Batman, but she's not winning this fight. no way.

Batman wins this. He's handled her before and she had to resort to super strength to even manage. Thats the only reason she'd win. Take it away and Diana is a phenomenal opponent, very skilled and poised, but Bruce is simply more skilled, stronger and arguably faster. He's had diverse training and control over his body in ways she couldn't begin to understand. Diana is a proud fighter based on brute strength and superior speed. She's got incredible endurance but Bruce's pain to body ratio>>>most. I've seen scans of Grayson or Drake surviving a severe wound because Bruce gave extensive training to control your heart rate and blood flow. Thats the only reason he lived, its how Bruce survives stab wounds and gun shots before his armor is on. Point is Bruce is a top 3 fighter in all of DC with all things being even, well above Diana.

plz. as far as fighting goes, diana sets the standard. shes trained for 1000s of yrs, 1000s. batman is probably the the only guy who would or could get diana hand to hand. every1 knows shes also among dc top fighters, even without her powers. there is a birds of prey comic where diana sparrs with black canary. shes barely breaking a sweat , and canary thinks, if she lets go with even a 10th or her speed or strength she would knock me to pluto. thats rite there proves diana can hang with and even best the best of the best with no powers.

Batman wins this.
Sure Diana may have had more experience, but Batman has taken down foes purely due to his fighting skills.

@Supermanwithatan01 said:

Batman wins this. He's handled her before and she had to resort to super strength to even manage. Thats the only reason she'd win. Take it away and Diana is a phenomenal opponent, very skilled and poised, but Bruce is simply more skilled, stronger and arguably faster. He's had diverse training and control over his body in ways she couldn't begin to understand. Diana is a proud fighter based on brute strength and superior speed. She's got incredible endurance but Bruce's pain to body ratio>>>most. I've seen scans of Grayson or Drake surviving a severe wound because Bruce gave extensive training to control your heart rate and blood flow. Thats the only reason he lived, its how Bruce survives stab wounds and gun shots before his armor is on. Point is Bruce is a top 3 fighter in all of DC with all things being even, well above Diana.

I agree with what he said. ^

Bruce, is within the top 5-10, Diana is a little past that based on logic. Diana is a good fighter, storing a lot of willpower, but at times her fighting skills are overly estimated or overly under estimated, and although she is a great fighter, she doesn't have enough of what it takes to beat Bruce.

Vouile

Batman curbstomps.Even Grayson can beat Wonder Woman.

This is not funny.......

@Stronger: No ones joking. The only reason Batman wins here is because he is a better tactician. Wonder Woman overall is the better fighter. Funny joke on the Graysons.

@lilben42 said:

@Stronger: No ones joking. The only reason Batman wins here is because he is a better tactician. Wonder Woman overall is the better fighter. Funny joke on the Graysons.

No powers????

Wonder Woman doesn't have enough h2h feats to even compare to Wildcat.

Any Bat-family member,apart from Barbara Gordon,Stephanie Brown,Huntress and Batwing should be able to stomp her.

@Stronger: No. Wonder Woman has some great H2H feats.

@lilben42 said:

@Stronger: No. Wonder Woman has some great H2H feats.

Go ahead and post me a SINGLE h2h feats worthy of consideration.

You really want me to flood this thread with Batman feats?????

@lilben42: LOL i told you that wonder woman is outclassed here, batman absolutely curbstomps her in pure h2h

@lilben42 said:

@Stronger: No. Wonder Woman has some great H2H feats.

Seriously Bro? Do you even have any feats scan to support your stand? especially the New 52 WW..

@rolldestroyer said:

@lilben42: LOL i told you that wonder woman is outclassed here, batman absolutely curbstomps her in pure h2h

Couldn't have said it better myself!

WW

although batman does have some freaky sh!t up his martial arts repertoire (that should be used more)

@Stronger: it's not a curbstomp,wonder woman is one of the best fighters in the world,said by batman himself.

Round 1 - Batman

Round 2 - Wonder Woman

Round 3 - Wonder Woman.

EDIT: Second thought - Round 2 goes to Batman.

@rolldestroyer:

it's not a curbstomp,wonder woman is one of the best fighters in the world,said by batman himself.

Gallery

Gallery

@Stronger: You can if you want I won't look at most of them.

@gokuwarrior said:

@Stronger: it's not a curbstomp,wonder woman is one of the best fighters in the world,said by batman himself.

Show me scans putting her even in Wildcat's level.

@lilben42 said:

Gallery

Gallery

@Stronger: You can if you want I won't look at most of them.

You really compare Power Girl and Zoom,to Lady Shiva,Bane,David Cain,Cassandra Cain etc????

Power Girl has no feats.She is supposed to know some Karate and Boxing but I haven't seen anything from her.Even Black Adam stomped in h2h.Twice.Zoom doesn't have any formal training,anyway she didn't use any h2h in that fight.Only her lasso.

@gokuwarrior said:

@rolldestroyer:

it's not a curbstomp,wonder woman is one of the best fighters in the world,said by batman himself.

with her powers? sure she is. But is she without them?

@rolldestroyer: Well, she wouldn't lose any of her skills, although I'd say she wouldn't fight in the same manner. That said, even without her powers she is fast enought to deflect bullets. So if anything it would be an interesting match.

@SNascimento said:

@rolldestroyer: Well, she wouldn't lose any of her skills, although I'd say she wouldn't fight in the same manner. That said, even without her powers she is fast enought to deflect bullets. So if anything it would be an interesting match.

you sure diana can deflect bullets without her powers? scans would be nice.