Darth Tenebrous Vs. Darth Bane and Darth Zannah

@shootingnova: Again - show me whom Bane/Zannah have ever defeated aside from glorified fodder?

Eh... Bane was beating Kas'im until the latter switched forms.

Especially in Round 1 where its PoD Bane,

I didn't even notice this.

I'm also assuming the phrase "contending with Koon" was a typo.

Why?

but honestly neither Bane nor Zannah can even win 1/10 against Fisto and Koon by virtue of dueling alone.

I disagree, unless you're talking about PoD Bane.

That's a wonderfully thought-provoking counterargument.

Given that I wasn't answering one of your points, it's not an counterargument.

For one, that feat is from DoE, ten years after these scenarios where Bane is in his prime.

Again, my mistake. I thought this was DoE Bane & DoE Zannah.

What has he done excluding DoE - up to PoD for the first one and up to RoT in the others.

PoD: moved fast enough as to see his surroundings in slow motion when he was untrained in the Force (IIRC), triggered sniper shots extremely fast, ravaged a room with lightning on his first try, was beating Kas'im at the end.

RoT: generated a dozen afterimages, easily overwhelmed Zannah, hurled Raskta Lsu, blasted a door open, disintegrated a dozen technobeasts, rendered a drexl and its riders to ash with lightning, fallen kilometers without being hurt (IIRC), moved a small boulder while his powers were diminished.

Again, he has tactical advantage, as well as pre-knowledge of his opponents, something they don't have.

How is this gonna help him?

and then she barely dived out of the way and it was stated to be only because of the Battle Meditation.

Exactly.

And you still failed to address how regular fodder assassins were fighting Bane perfectly fine. No speedblitz - and he wasn't holding back. Hetton dodged his Lightning too.

I don't know, because I honestly don't even remember those instances.

And by "the narrator", this would likely be a reference to some regular human?

I would think so, but it was written as to be from Zannah's, but that doesn't really make sense...

Somebody like Dooku or Vader has fought invisibly fast and generated about 6-8 afterimages,

First off, when has Vader done this? He only generated 4, not 6-8. Second, I would like to point out that whenever a character generates afterimages, it is almost always between 3-9, never above 10. Generating above 10 is extremely rare.

EDIT: I honestly thought the first round was Bane from Dynasty of Evil, not Path of Destruction (which is why I referred you to his feats in Dynasty of Evil).With that in mind, I agree that Tenebrous easily wins the first round, but loses handily in the second round. With his orbalisk armor, Bane's speed rivals Tenebrous', his skill feats are superior, his strength feats are superior, his durability feats are superior, his TK rivals or exceeds Tenebrous', and he is impervous to lightsaber strikes everywhere except on his head and wrists. With Zannah at his side, I fail to see how Tenebrous' loss isn't certain.

Which, as I addressed in another thread - is not as applicable here as it would be in a thread rematch for Bane and Kas'im. Bane had pre-knowledge of Kas'im, while he doesn't for Tenebrous. When Kas'im used an alien form and Bane didn't have pre-knowledge, he got beaten. Beyond that - Kas'im is featless.

Because Koon can't contend with himself?

I was, but honestly, the only reason why even RoT Bane and Zannah would beat them in a duel is because RoT Bane is immune to physical assault. Unless Koon uses Electric Judgement, that is. :P

The first feat is universal, so I'm not sure what relevance it has here. Same goes for the second one, which is also undefined by your standards (I think it said half a dozen in two seconds in the novel). Regarding the Lightning, Tenebrous's Lightning has left behind residual sparks long after its initial discharge, something Bane has never duplicated. We haven't seen the direct output of Tenebrous's Lightning (the effects it had on any receiver) but that residual sparks feat honestly is better than Lightning Bane has shown. Not that Bane's Lightning would even matter since Tenebrous could just dodge it, catch it on his blade or repel it with Barrier.

Zannah didn't actually get overwhelmed. She was about to. Hurling Raskta is not impressive because she has no feats in that regard and additionally was stated to have been a Weapons Master and was vulnerable to telekinetic attacks. The atomizing TK feat and his Lightning feat are good but can't get past Tenebrous's barrier. And the TK feat was amped because of his proximity to the holocron within Belia Darzu's fortress, which radiated Dark Side energies. I've explained this further down in the section about Bane dueling with the Jedi.

That was directly referring to your point about Zannah charging up Sorcery. Tenebrous knows she is a Sorceress. And of course his vastly superior tactical ability is going to help him formulate plans for victory.

LOL. Selectively choosing parts of my post to respond to. As I said, he nearly killed her after she had landed half a dozen blows on him to no avail. That is not speedblitzing her, especially since she got out of the way anyways. If anything, Raskta would appear to be next to speedblitzing him, although of course he was leaving himself open since he couldn't be harmed anyways, so scrap that.

LOL. It was just some assassins attacking him with force pikes. They hit him at least twice and the electric charge brought him to his knees thanks to the Orbalisks amplifying the electricity.

Well, we do have Karpyshyn being an abysmal story-teller and the fact that he knows nothing about the Force, so I guess that explains it all.

The 6-8 was Tyranus. Regarding the afterimages, my intention was not to say they were better than Bane's feat - but simply that they were easily comparable, yet they are significantly slower than Tenebrous.

That's forgivable.

No, it doesn't. As I said, Bane's running speed is nil by comparison and honestly Tenebrous has better fighting speed as well - given how Bane got harmed by some lackluster, fodder assassins and Tenebrous fought hundreds of those sorts of beings with an exotic weapon and managed to emerge unscathed. The twelve blades might as well be discounted since it absolutely contradicts itself as you noted above - and doing that to a human's perspective is already inferior to Plagueis's feat (which was accomplished in an unfitting terrain), and Tenebrous is faster than Plagueis (on neutral ground).

Not really. I'll discuss the Jedi feat later. For now, though, let's just have a look at other things. Bane got harmed by eight assassins, which is bad feat given how they were some fodder designed to stealthily kill people, not fight long-drawn battles. In contrast, Tenebrous was fighting hundreds of Kursid warriors which are much more suited to legitimate battles rather than stealthy backstabbing, and Tenebrous managed this with only a force pike yet still emerged unscathed. That's them in comparison to fodder, and Tenebrous takes that. Beyond that - Bane knows Soresu and Djem So and Zannah knows Soresu. Tenebrous knows multiple forms since he trained Plagueis, and trained Venamis in the exact same fighting style - and Venamis was stated to have been shifting and mixing forms during his contest with Plagueis. Form mastery goes to Tenebrous as well. He also mastered usage of a force pike, something Bane/Zannah have never done, so exotic weapon mastery goes to him as well. Also, the force pike mastery shouldn't be relevant to a fight but it helps him because it gives him some pre-knowledge against a saberstaff. Not that he was unaware of it in the first place.

Regarding dueling he Jedi - let's first say that the Jedi were largely featless, especially in regards to dueling skill. Now, with that out of the way, Bane had difficult defending just his head (since his armor protected virtually all of the rest of his body) against Johun Othone, Raskta Lsu and Valenthyne Farfalla. While Raskta was a celebrated but featless swordsman, Farfalla has no dueling feats of note and was never celebrated as a swordsman, and Johun Othone was the same. In fact, Othone's skill deteriorated since the book states he had been spending the last few years in the presence of the Chancellor and what not, but hadn't refined his dueling skills - and he was using a very basic variant of Form VI, as far as Zannah could tell. And yet, Othone penetrated Bane's defenses. Now, of course you would first go to Worror's Battle Meditation amping the Jedi and deteriorating the Sith's skill, except that's not the case. Worror was stated as a healer and his Battle Meditation was stated in the novel to only be of assistance to allies. Its effects on enemies were never noted - and Zannah could tell Sarro was amped, yet Zannah herself never noticed the Battle Meditation weakening her? No, that's not possible. Worror's Battle Meditation simply doesn't affect enemies. And if you were going to say "Battle Meditation always affects enemies and what not", then blame it on Karpyshyn, not me, for not knowing how the Force and its related powers work.

Furthermore, Bane and Zannah were amped by the Dark Side energies in Belia Darzu's fortress, which was noted by Bane. The energies came from the holocron, which Darovit was clutching (he was in a tiny adjacent room), and he was not far away. Bane and Zannah's close proximity to the holocron amped their powers, but of course the Jedi can't draw upon Dark Side energies.

This is perhaps the only thing I will concede in favor of the duo. That said, Zannah hardly has better strength, but Bane does. Of course though, this only applies if he can consistently connect with Tenebrous, which will be difficult granted his inferior speed. Not only that, but Tenebrous was somewhat compared to Plagueis physically, and Plagueis is stronger than Bane. That said, I will still concede this for lack of feats on Tenebrous's part.

Maybe. Tenebrous lasted a decent while even while crushed by all that mine ceiling, considering how his single lung had been pierced. Also, when Plagueis broke Tenebrous's neck, he was paralyzed but didn't die immediately (and Plagueis is again, stronger than Bane). He died during Plagueis's observation, which was implied to last a long time in the novel, in part due to the fact that he was shaking by the time he got up.

So Zannah doesn't have better durability, but Bane does. Honestly though, that doesn't do him any good since the things he is resistant to are negated by the Orbalisk armor anyways. The thing that isn't negated is Lightning, which is amplified against Bane and will still harm him.

His TK is roughly equivalent. Not that this matters since Tenebrous's TK would be irrelevant (due to Bane's armor) and Bane's TK can't get past Tenebrous's Barrier. Now, you might try to mention Zannah's TK, but not only is that unable to get past Tenebrous's Force Shield either, she has never displayed telekinetics in a duel.

He is also extremely vulnerable to Lightning to the point where it would take him out of the fight. Tenebrous can use Lightning and can formulate a way to ensure it hits with his vastly transcendent tactical ability, and thanks to pre-knowledge also knows about Bane's Orbalisks, and almost certainly about their weakness to electricity (which I believe Bane mentioned in his text which Tenebrous possessed).

And again, he is also far superior tactically. In fact, the duo's tactical ability is nil - Zannah has never shown any form of tactical ability and Bane can't thanks to his armor.

@shootingnova: Which, as I addressed in another thread - is not as applicable here as it would be in a thread rematch for Bane and Kas'im. Bane had pre-knowledge of Kas'im, while he doesn't for Tenebrous.

Sure it would. Bane's knowledge of Kas'im is irrelevant when Kas'im has knowledge of Bane.

Beyond that - Kas'im is featless.

I'm well aware. But truth be told, it's a better skill feat than whatever Tenebrous has shown.

Because Koon can't contend with himself?

Sorry about that, I meant Ventress. It was 6 or 7AM in the morning when I wrote that. :P

I was, but honestly, the only reason why even RoT Bane and Zannah would beat them in a duel is because RoT Bane is immune to physical assault.

Eh, I would probably agree with that. Even without Zannah, Bane would win, though.

The first feat is universal, so I'm not sure what relevance it has here. Same goes for the second one, which is also undefined by your standards (I think it said half a dozen in two seconds in the novel). Regarding the Lightning, Tenebrous's Lightning has left behind residual sparks long after its initial discharge, something Bane has never duplicated. We haven't seen the direct output of Tenebrous's Lightning (the effects it had on any receiver) but that residual sparks feat honestly is better than Lightning Bane has shown. Not that Bane's Lightning would even matter since Tenebrous could just dodge it, catch it on his blade or repel it with Barrier.

I never meant to build a case that Bane is superior to Tenebrous; only to list his feats. Although those feats are fairly impressive given his lack of training in the Force.

The atomizing TK feat and his Lightning feat are good but can't get past Tenebrous's barrier.

Probably not, but it could still help him get some distance onto Tenebrous if he needed it.

That was directly referring to your point about Zannah charging up Sorcery. Tenebrous knows she is a Sorceress.

That's not a satisfying answer. I asked you how it would help him since, personally, I see no tactic that would help him win, only delay the inevitable (talking about the second round, of course).

LOL. Selectively choosing parts of my post to respond to. As I said, he nearly killed her after she had landed half a dozen blows on him to no avail. That is not speedblitzing her, especially since she got out of the way anyways.

I mixed up the names, my bad. He nearly blitzed Farfalla, not Lsu.

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might. Yet even with their enhanced abilities, he wondered if they would survive the coming battle. As they burst into the room a man who could only have been Darth Bane charged recklessly toward them. In any other instance the move would have spelled a quick end to the encounter, as Raskta raced ahead of Farfalla to carve the Sith to pieces.

-Rule of Two

LOL. It was just some assassins attacking him with force pikes. They hit him at least twice and the electric charge brought him to his knees thanks to the Orbalisks amplifying the electricity.

He actually killed one of them before it could react.

Specially trained in the art of killing Force-sensitive adversaries, Shadow Assassins preferred to rely on stealth and surprise. Exposed by Bane's energy burst, they suddenly found their greatest advantage taken away. And even though there were eight of them, Bane never hesitated. He leapt forward and cut the first red-robed figure down before he-or she-had a chance to react, a single slash of his lightsaber bisecting the unfortunate opponent horizontally, just above the waist.

-Rule of Two

Well, we do have Karpyshyn being an abysmal story-teller and the fact that he knows nothing about the Force, so I guess that explains it all.

Judge for yourself.

She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time.

-Rule of Two

my intention was not to say they were better than Bane's feat - but simply that they were easily comparable, yet they are significantly slower than Tenebrous.

How are they comparable? Creating 12 is a good bit better than creating 8, in my opinion.

As I said, Bane's running speed is nil by comparison

His combat should logically be about the same as his running speed. And why does it matter? They're fighting, not racing.

Bane got harmed by eight assassins, which is bad feat given how they were some fodder designed to stealthily kill people, not fight long-drawn battles.

Did you even read the text? Bane was hit because he specifically let them hit him and his armor.

The other seven swarmed him, thrusting their force pikes forward to deliver the deadly electrical charge stored in the tips. Bane never even bothered to parry the incoming blows, relying on his orbalisk armor to protect him as he adopted a strategy of pure offense.

In contrast, Tenebrous was fighting hundreds of Kursid warriors which are much more suited to legitimate battles rather than stealthy backstabbing, and Tenebrous managed this with only a force pike yet still emerged unscathed.

Which is a showing of his impressive physical attributes, not skill.

Form mastery goes to Tenebrous as well.

So what? Starkiller is a ''high-end master of multiple forms'' but his skills as a swordsman are lacking.

He also mastered usage of a force pike, something Bane/Zannah have never done, so exotic weapon mastery goes to him as well. Also, the force pike mastery shouldn't be relevant to a fight but it helps him because it gives him some pre-knowledge against a saberstaff. Not that he was unaware of it in the first place.

So it's irrelevant? Good.

Regarding dueling he Jedi - let's first say that the Jedi were largely featless, especially in regards to dueling skill.

Sure. But it's at least something. Tenebrous has nothing that establishes him as a great swordsman.

Plagueis is stronger than Bane.

Not really. Plagueis' strength feats are extremely impressive, but Bane's are better. Besides, the orbalisks enhance Bane's physical attributes; yet his greatest strength feat was without the orbalisks.

Also, when Plagueis broke Tenebrous's neck, he was paralyzed but didn't die immediately

I don't recall that Plagueis intended to kill Tenebrous.

His TK is roughly equivalent. Not that this matters since Tenebrous's TK would be irrelevant (due to Bane's armor) and Bane's TK can't get past Tenebrous's Barrier. Now, you might try to mention Zannah's TK, but not only is that unable to get past Tenebrous's Force Shield either, she has never displayed telekinetics in a duel.

Agreed with all of this.

Tenebrous can use Lightning and can formulate a way to ensure it hits with his vastly transcendent tactical ability,

I doubt this. Bane can dodge it or block it with his lightsaber.

That doesn't make it irrelevant - it just lessens my point. That said, it is good.

I'm not sure what insinuates Kas'im as a superior duelist to Tenebrous.

And that does not even hinge on skill - it hinges on his invulnerability.

Not really. Tenebrous's Force Shield didn't cost him exceeding effort, and that was against something more potent.

Pre-knowledge or vastly superior tactical ability? The latter speaks for itself, and the former should do the same. He would realize what the Orbalisks are, and he would realize Zannah's Sorcery, and how to deal with them.

The "in any other instance the move would have spelled a quick end to the encounter" honestly seems to refer more to Bane's seemingly suicidal move, not speedblitz.

I rescind my former point. I hadn't read the book in at least a year and I hadn't bothered to pick it up again because I considered it the worst of the trilogy and just bad writing in general.

That said, for the speed part that's decent enough (although honestly that should be expected from Bane outside of his armor) but they still managed to last a brief instant. That said, they would likely have not trained much in reaction times considering their focus was on silent assassination. And Hetton still dodged Bane's Lightning.

It's better but not so much better it would mean a stomp. Considering how regular human perception is the subject in question, I'm not so sure it would be that much. Actually, I don't know whose perception is in question. Whatever.

Logically? No - and that's not an acceptable answer, really. The blade of a lightsaber moves faster than one's legs do.

But if you were to consider running and fighting speed being exactly the same - then Tenebrous would still be faster.

As for why they are important - because they could be used in some tactical retreat or maneuver, and would be effective for dodging blows. Pace has a bearing in combat.

It certainly has some bearing on skill - and it factors in a fight anyways.

I don't consider him a "master". That's a pretty loose term, honestly, especially in that context. What I was referencing was his ability to mix forms effectively - which could potentially throw Bane/Zannah off-guard for a moment. At least, it would partially confound them.

Considering how Tenebrous trained Venamis in just about everything (at least, in dueling) - then I would think it is safe to say Tenebrous was superior to Venamis and could replicate everything the latter has shown, including mixing various forms in the midst of battles, fighting while levitating in the air and so forth. Of course, this doesn't necessary make him a landmark swordsman, but honestly speaking I'm not sure what makes Bane or Zannah good swordsmen - because the only people of note that have fought were Kas'im and possibly Sarro/Raskta. I honestly have no reason to see why they would be any more impressive than Tenebrous.

Plagueis's feats are better - and he accomplished them while heavily injured (he had lost a trachea, several blood vessels, one of his three hearts and in danger of losing a second).

Conceded because it honestly wasn't even much of a durability feat to begin with.

I wouldn't exercise as much confidence. For Bane dodging it, I find that unlikely given his movement speed (not his blade speed) is rather lackluster and as I recall, Orbalisk Bane was not one to dodge things. Remember, at this point it seems Bane hadn't realized how potent Lightning could be against the Orbalisks, while Tenebrous does. Given his tactical ability, if that didn't work he would honestly try to just outrun Bane and repel Bane's own Lightning at him if he attempted to use it out of frustration. Not much of a tactic, but still. Generally, he would use Lightning from the onset.

@shootingnova: That doesn't make it irrelevant - it just lessens my point. That said, it is good.

Fair enough.

I'm not sure what insinuate Kas'im as a superior duelist to Tenebrous.

Nothing, although mastering all forms and creating his own sequences might put him above Tenebrous with respect to technical formidability.

And that does not even hinge on skill - it hinges on his invulnerability.

Agreed. Bane is powerful and strong but isn't very skilled. I guess that I can concede that Tenebrous would beat them if they were DoE versions.

Not really. Tenebrous's Force Shield didn't cost him exceeding effort, and that was against something more potent.

True, but whether he could raise it in time depends on the status of the fight. Bane has cast his lightning faster than thought and although Zannah could block it, it still staggered her a bit.

Pre-knowledge or vastly superior tactical ability? The latter speaks for itself, and the former should do the same. He would realize what the Orbalisks are, and he would realize Zannah's Sorcery, and how to deal with them.

The latter. The only tactical way to get under the orbalisks is to fry them with lightning, but then, that he knows it doesn't mean he can do it.

The "in any other instance the move would have spelled a quick end to the encounter" honestly seems to refer more to Bane's seemingly suicidal move, not speedblitz.

Given that two lines above, Farfalla was doubting their chance of victory, I'm inclined to disagree.

It's better but not so much better it would mean a stomp.

I never said it would be. Yoda is faster than Tyranus but the latter is capable of holding his own.

The blade of a lightsaber moves faster than one's legs do.

Then Bane's combat speed is superior since Tenebrous has only displayed running speed.

It certainly has some bearing on skill

Not really. It takes great maneuverability, agility, speed, endurance and stamina to remain unhurt considering there's so many but it doesn't take skill to kill them. At least not skill worth mentioning.

I don't consider him a "master". That's a pretty loose term, honestly, especially in that context.

But canon does. He's a master of Juyo which requires him to have mastered multiple forms.

What I was referencing was his ability to mix forms effectively - which could potentially throw Bane/Zannah off-guard for a moment. At least, it would partially confound them.

Considering how Tenebrous trained Venamis in just about everything (at least, in dueling) - then I would think it is safe to say Tenebrous was superior to Venamis and could replicate everything the latter has shown, including mixing various forms in the midst of battles, fighting while levitating in the air and so forth. Of course, this doesn't necessary make him a landmark swordsman, but honestly speaking I'm not sure what makes Bane or Zannah good swordsmen - because the only people of note that have fought were Kas'im and possibly Sarro/Raskta. I honestly have no reason to see why they would be any more impressive than Tenebrous.

I see your point. Conceded here.

Plagueis's feats are better - and he accomplished them while heavily injured (he had lost a trachea, several blood vessels, one of his three hearts and in danger of losing a second).

How so? Bane wrecked a steel door off its hinges while drugged, and this was without the orbalisk armor, which enhances his strength a good amount. Also, Bane is a Djem So practitioner, so strength is more important to him than it is to Tenebrous and Plagueis.

For Bane dodging it, I find that unlikely given his movement speed (not his blade speed) is rather lackluster and as I recall,

Hmm. For pure movement speed, I only recall running in a blur, which is hardly incredible. Of course, with his orbalisks, he should be able to do better.

Given his tactical ability, if that didn't work he would honestly try to just outrun Bane and repel Bane's own Lightning at him if he attempted to use it out of frustration.

If he is outrunning Bane, he would never repel Bane's lightning since it wouldn't hit him. And I doubt he would outrun or outlast Bane, whose orbalisks induce him with pain as to last quite a while, not to mention his healing ability.

Sheesh. I wonder if this will ever end.

I suppose I was quite wrong on my first assumption.

Not only does Tenebrous appear to have mastered all forms (as he trained Plagueis, who trained Palpatine - who is indeed a master of every form) and can mix forms in the midst of battles to perform a powerful and confounding style. I don't see Kas'im replicating that. As for Kas'im mastering usage of a saberstaff, I would point to Tenebrous's mastery of a force pike and general longer-ranged melee weapons.

I have absolutely no idea how casting it faster than thought makes it faster than Tenebrous. Considering how faster than human thought is just about universal amongst any decent Force practitioner, I don't see how this is impressive. Tenebrous could weave a Force Shield faster than an explosion.

If he knows it (which he does) then he will attempt to do it as his priority. Once Bane is gone Zannah can't do anything.

That is not only subjective, but somewhat stupid because Farfalla had never even met either of the opposing Sith. This was a reference to later when Raskta landed half a dozen blows but didn't even stagger Bane.

Beyond that, Farfalla managed to connect blades with Bane at least once a while later. Not much of a speedblitz.

And he was also holding back - but I agree. And that only reinforces my point - Tyranus and Vader's afterimage generation is comparable to Bane's, yet they are significantly slower than Tenebrous.

Ripping a door off its hinges is different from punching through it. Plagueis was largely wounded and holding back yet smashed through (as in he punched through them) metal armoured torsos and crushed metal-helmeted skulls, and kicked people across rooms (again, with armoring). And that feat of Bane's was from DoE. He likely practiced strength over the years considering how he had some trembling symptom and he needed to insure his own strength.

I have no idea how this makes Bane stronger. Plagueis's fighting style appears to heavily involve either Djem So or Juyo, but in any case this doesn't make Bane any stronger.

Also - Bane's strength couldn't overwhelm Kas'im, so I don't see why it would be of value here, either. For that matter, one could argue Bane was more amped than Kas'im at the time since he had been saturated in the dark side aura of Lehon for much longer.

No idea how that is going to be substantiated. Orbalisks can fuel you with adrenaline which might increase movement speed, but I hardly find any of his movement speed feats even remotely on Tenebrous's level. Assuming Orbalisks would increase his speed by some unidentified and likely minimal amount is not an acceptable way of making them equals in movement speed.

Giving his ability to accurately calculate things and even calculate the future mathematically - he could accurately calculate the trajectory of the Lightning, stop/slow down his speed such that he could repel it and that would be that.

For that matter - here is where the movement speed and stamina that you doubted would be of any use earlier on comes in useful. Bane has no feats to even remotely insinuate good movement speed, and Djem So being known for its immobility doesn't help. The same goes for Zannah. And considering how Tenebrous has fought hundreds of warriors and Bane hasn't really accomplished something like that, I would argue that Tenebrous could outlast Bane. An amped Bane was aching to the point of being unable to even walk after fighting the technobeasts in the Belia Darzu's fortress. Zannah has no good stamina feats.

Bane and Zannah.

@dccomicsrule2011: There's three rounds in case you didn't notice.

Ah I see.

Well if that's the case; I'm giving Tenebrous round 1 while Zannah and Bane should take round 2 and 3.

@dccomicsrule2011: Hmm. I still disagree as you can see above :P

@shootingnova: Not only does Tenebrous appear to have mastered all forms (as he trained Plagueis, who trained Palpatine - who is indeed a master of every form)

This form of logic has no substance. Should we then consider Tenebrous' master to have mastered all forms? And his master?

I have absolutely no idea how casting it faster than thought makes it faster than Tenebrous.

Nice red herring. I never said he can cast it faster than Tenebrous' speed is fast (LOL @ this). I was pointing out Bane's ability to cast lightning fairly fast and that he has done it mid-duel several times could trouble Tenebrous, even if he can deflect it.

If he knows it (which he does) then he will attempt to do it as his priority.

Which has no relevance to whether it will work successfully.

Tyranus and Vader's afterimage generation is comparable to Bane's

Except they aren't. Conjuring over 10 afterimages is on another level than creating under 10. In fact, to my knowledge, the only others who has fought fast enough as to create over 10 can be counted on two hands.

I have seen nothing to insinuate Bane could replicate that.

Because Tenebrous' agility is extraordinary by all accounts (as mused by Plagueis). Not only that, Bane, as an Djem So practitioner, is naturally less agile.

I'm not sure how mastering a few forms is the same as using and mixing forms productively mid-duel as if the forms were more like sequences.

I'm not sure when I said so. You brought up the idea that Tenebrous' skill is displayed by possibly mastering forms, which I debunked by citing swordsmen whose skills not necessary are significant.

Ripping a door off its hinges is different from punching through it.

He punched through armored torsos, not durasteel.

Plagueis was largely wounded and holding back yet smashed through (as in he punched through them) metal armoured torsos and crushed metal-helmeted skulls, and kicked people across rooms (again, with armoring).

And Bane did it while drugged without his orbalisk armor which significantly enhances his physical strength.

I have no idea how this makes Bane stronger

I have no idea why you thought so. I said his strength helps is more important for Bane than Plagueis' strength is for him.

Also - Bane's strength couldn't overwhelm Kas'im, so I don't see why it would be of value here, either.

LOL. Are you reading your own posts?

You, same post, a paragraph or two earlier:

He likely practiced strength over the years considering how he had some trembling symptom and he needed to insure his own strength.

Bane's inability to overpower Kas'im is irrelevant when Bane's strength is prodigious by all accounts.

Assuming Orbalisks would increase his speed by some unidentified and likely minimal amount is not an acceptable way of making them equals in movement speed.

I never said it did. Combat speed is the most important speed since that's the speed they're fighting at. I see no disparity between them in that regard.

Giving his ability to accurately calculate things and even calculate the future mathematically - he could accurately calculate the trajectory of the Lightning, stop/slow down his speed such that he could repel it and that would be that.

Right. And Bane is going to stand still and let him? Tenebrous would be hard pressed to cast his lightning when Bane similarly has his own share of offensive powers.

And considering how Tenebrous has fought hundreds of warriors and Bane hasn't really accomplished something like that, I would argue that Tenebrous could outlast Bane

Not even close. First, the orbalisks constantly pump adrenaline into Bane's blood which refills his power. Second, you have absolutely no way to know how long it took for Tenebrous and Plagueis to kill the warriors. Third, most duels never last over two minutes; so stamina would hardly be a problem.

@shootingnova: My bad, I clicked ''Post Reply'' by misake. I edited it and addressed the rest.

Sure, that logic could be flawed but honestly, Plagueis's only mentor was Tenebrous while Palpatine's only master was Plagueis, and I'm not sure how you could go about learning a form by making up your own sequences - but in any case even if you scrapped that Tenebrous is still a mastery of multiple forms and can mix them productively in a fight. I still don't see how Kas'im is better.

Well then, I apologize for misinterpreting your comment, but honestly being capable of casting it at a practically universal speed amongst notable Force-sensitives and being able to to utilize it mid-duel is hardly going to cause trouble.

Nobody insinuated it would definitely work successfully in the first place - I said it could. And I'm not sure why you are telling me if it would be no guarantee of being successful because you were asking me how tactics could help in a fight - and I said he could formulate such plans. Nobody suggested said plans would work, only that they could be of use.

No idea what you are saying. Are you saying Orbalisk Bane is faster than Yoda? Anyways, sure, his feat (which as I said, might as well be discounted for the sake of making no sense) might be beyond Tyranus's level, but then so is Plagueis's - and Tenebrous exceeds Plagueis in speed.

Considering how just a bit earlier you were associating this with speed, agility and stamina - and now it isn't? Agility and combat speed is similar and almost as useful in a fight.

You selectively chose that part of my argument, if I recall correctly (which I may not because I'm getting confused now). My argument was that Tenebrous knew multiple forms and could mix them productively in combat. Even if that wasn't the case before, it is now.

Bane hasn't punched through durasteel either - so this is a bit irrelevant. Ripping a door off its hinge is impressive, but as I said before this was accomplished in DoE, which is ten years later and he was likely practicing strength (and he was hinted to have improved Force-wise, which includes passive strength amplification).

Your syntax is a bit out of shape. But does this matter? Yoda's form requires less strength/strength is less important for his form than it is for Vader's, yet they have about the same strength. Whether a form requires more strength isn't really relevant. We're debating strength that he has exercised, not strength he requires.

.....? What are you on about?

I have no idea what Bane's duel with Kas'im has to do with him practicing strength in the ten year gap between RoT and DoE. I have no idea whether you're even paying attention to what you're responding too - so I left my point there along with your response. Does that even make sense?

Yes, you did. And I quote: "Of course, with his orbalisks, he should be able to do better." I repeat - assuming the Orbalisks enhance them by some unidentified (and likely minimal) amount is not satisfactory.

Regarding combat speed - I wasn't ever debating Tenebrous's combat speed superiority. I was debating his vastly superior movement speed. For that matter - if his combat speed (as in blade speed, I presume?) is equivalent to Bane's, then here is where his agility comes in handy.

.....What? What I was saying was that Tenebrous could repel Bane's Lightning back at him - and how would Bane prevent Tenebrous from repelling the Lightning, especially if he unleashed a storm?

The instance I was referencing him shooting Lightning would not be from a standstill - I meant he would be outrunning Bane while shooting Lightning. Bane has nothing in his offensive repertoire that could actually prevent that.

1. Orbalisks' adrenaline is not infinite - as evinced by Bane's fatigue in some circumstances.

2. No, I actually don't.

3. I was debating some form of outrunning and fighting - namely outrunning Bane and shooting Lightning.

Honestly, Tenebrous would likely opt to outrun Bane and shoot Lightning in simultaneity from the onset as a result of his pre-knowledge on Bane and his Orbalisks in conjunction with his tactical calculations. If he actually tries to attack Bane, I see his agility being of help - and Tenebrous would surely eventually quickly realize he can't win a duel, and presuming he landed a hit on Bane, that he couldn't penetrate the Orbalisks (although frankly he could go for the head). The moment he realizes his inability to win by standing there and fighting with a blade, his "love for dueling", as you put it, would quickly deteriorate and he would opt to outrun Bane and shoot Lightning as I said above. Zannah launching an offensive of her own is unlikely given her defensive nature, but she has never launched any competent offensive anyways and Tenebrous's agility would see to his ability to avoid that.

@shootingnova: I still don't see how Kas'im is better.

Alright. Fair enough.

being capable of casting it at a practically universal speed amongst notable Force-sensitives and being able to to utilize it mid-duel is hardly going to cause trouble.

It could, potentially. It caused Zannah trouble before.

Nobody suggested said plans would work, only that they could be of use.

Your entire argument is pretty much relying on Tenebrous' tactical abilities. If you don't think that they would work for a majority, what point is it that you're trying to make?

Are you saying Orbalisk Bane is faster than Yoda?

No. About the same level in combat speed.

and Tenebrous exceeds Plagueis in speed.

I don't have the book on me at the moment, but from what I recall, he gave Plagueis a struggle to maintain pace when he had a headstart, not when they ran at the same time.

Considering how just a bit earlier you were associating this with speed, agility and stamina - and now it isn't?

Eh? It is associated with speed, agility and stamina. Bane lacks agility which is why he'd probably be unable to do what Tenebrous did [to be fair, Tenebrous did it with the aid of Plagueis].

My argument was that Tenebrous knew multiple forms and could mix them productively in combat. Even if that wasn't the case before, it is now.

Yep. But it doesn't make him a better swordsman than Bane, only about equal.

Bane hasn't punched through durasteel either - so this is a bit irrelevant.

I never said he did, I was simply correcting your mistake that Plagueis punched torsos and not durasteel.

but as I said before this was accomplished in DoE, which is ten years later and he was likely practicing strength (and he was hinted to have improved Force-wise, which includes passive strength amplification).

Bane's power was declining in DoE because of his massive use of the dark side due to the orbalisks feeding on him. If anything, his strength would've diminished. And again, he was in pain from being drugged [although, the place was strong with the dark side, which should perhaps even that out], and most importantly, he was without his orbalisks, which increase his physical attributes immensly. With his orbalisks, Bane is one of the physically strongest characters in the entire mythos.

Your syntax is a bit out of shape. But does this matter? Yoda's form requires less strength/strength is less important for his form than it is for Vader's, yet they have about the same strength. Whether a form requires more strength isn't really relevant. We're debating strength that he has exercised, not strength he requires.

The point was that even if someone like Tenebrous or Plagueis has equal strength, Bane's strength would be more important to him since it is was his primary form focuses on.

.....? What are you on about?

You pointed out that Bane never overpowered Kas'im with his strength, but above, you say that his strength improved over the years, practically making your own point... pointless.

Yes, you did. And I quote: "Of course, with his orbalisks, he should be able to do better."

I meant being able to do better than his own self without his orbalisk, not better than Tenebrous.

For that matter - if his combat speed (as in blade speed, I presume?) is equivalent to Bane's, then here is where his agility comes in handy.

I don't ever remember when a Djem So practitioner's lack of agility has hindered him.

and how would Bane prevent Tenebrous from repelling the Lightning, especially if he unleashed a storm?

What? I don't get this one.

The instance I was referencing him shooting Lightning would not be from a standstill - I meant he would be outrunning Bane while shooting Lightning. Bane has nothing in his offensive repertoire that could actually prevent that.

No, but he's equipped with his lightsaber.

1. Orbalisks' adrenaline is not infinite - as evinced by Bane's fatigue in some circumstances.

Neither is Tenebrous'. And when did Bane fatigue? I want to read it myself.

2. No, I actually don't.

I fail to see how stamina would matter, then.

As for the rest of your post, I see no merit to it. Tenebrous could presumably spam lightning, but Bane is equipped with his lightsaber with should be sufficient.

I am now fairly certain that this debate will never end.

All things must end in due time :)

I have no idea why causing Zannah trouble would be synonymous with causing Tenebrous trouble. Tenebrous has vastly transcendent movement speed, agility and protective power.

Well, I do believe they will work. He won't win by virtue of them alone, but it's certainly another factor especially how Bane's tactical ability is rendered nil.

Eh..... Yoda could contend with Palpatine, who should be faster than Bane can react. Because Bane isn't really faster than Anakin, who has encased himself in green light from his lightsaber as of AotC. He's also fought in blurs, fought fast enough to appear in multiple places at once, etc.

Plaugeis dashed after Tenebrous just after Tenebrous himself left, in other words, as soon was was possible. Not much of a headstart.

In any case, Plagueis had to call upon deeply on the Force merely to keep up with Tenebrous.

I have never said Plagueis punched through durasteel. I said he punched through armored assassins, whose armor was some form of steel.

Bane's symptoms including trembling would only serve as a catalyst for his training in further enhancing his strength. Not that this matters because any sufficient amount of physical activity or adrenaline being pumped into his system eliminated the trembling, as I recall, so this wouldn't really matter. How about you just give me feats from Bane excluding DoE, so that I won't debate their validity. It'll help a lot more. Also, when has Bane's actual strength been of use in an actual duel? Against anybody with competent strength, that is.

Sorry, this part of your post was further up but I skipped it and didn't realize that until now. Anyways, so you're saying Bane is not ahead of Tenebrous in dueling skill now, then?

Bane's strength being more important is not relevant. Unless you were trying to say Bane uses more strength in his fighting style than Tenebrous/Plagueis, in which case I would counter by saying all the latter will have to do is increase their own strength usage. As you noted before, stamina will not be a problem.

Sure, but Bane hasn't overpowered Zannah by sheer force of physical strength alone either. And Zannah is inferior to Tenebrous/Plagueis in strength considering how Bane thought she simply wasn't going to be capable of using aggressive lightsaber forms. And while I do understand that this was stated while Zannah was still very young, Orbalisk Bane still didn't overpower Zannah by virtue of strength later as well (in both RoT and DoE) - and I don't see that Zannah being as strong as Plagueis/Tenebrous either. Bane has never overpowered any competent opponent in a duel by virtue of strength.

You were referencing movement speed, yes? I still don't see movement feats to suggest he could stop Tenebrous from outrunning him.

Vader vs Marek, if I recall correctly. And again, Djem So is known for being immobile, so just accept it as a weakness. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Because, you know, I've never seen Yoda lose a lightsaber duel, so that means he can't?

I was asking you how Bane would stop Tenebrous from repelling his own Lightning back at him. This would be even worse if Bane tried to unleash a storm of lightning.

Except Bane has no reason to realize Lightning would have as profound an effect on him that it does, and given his carefree tendency to just let his opponents hit him in the belief that he is invulnerable, I don't know why he would just block Lightning rather than try to tank it, in which case he dies.

Before you say it, yes, I do realize that this occurred after an hour of fighting, but you just asked for a scenario where Bane fatigued, so I'll give you one. To be fair, Bane was amped. Anyways, here is what you asked for:

By the time it was done every muscle in his body from hewing through hundreds of cubic meters of metal, brining back memories of the long shifts he had endured in the mines of Apatros as a young man.

Source: Rule of Two

He extinguished his lightsaber and hung it from his belt, then staggered forward, grasping the edges of the pedestal to keep from collapsing as his thighs and calves simultaneously cramped.

Gritting his teeth, he leaned heavily on the pedestal to take the weight off the locked-up muscles.Breathing deeply, e called upon what remained of his Force abilities to replenish his strength. After several minutes the spasms began to fade, and he was able to stand gingerly once more.

His body and will were exhausted; the smart thing would be to rest before attempting to use the Holocron.

Source: Rule of Two

I have no idea why causing Zannah trouble would be synonymous with causing Tenebrous trouble. Tenebrous has vastly transcendent movement speed, agility and protective power.

And Bane fired lightning at her in DoE. With the orbalisks, his speed and power is vastly better than Zannah's too.

Eh..... Yoda could contend with Palpatine, who should be faster than Bane can react. Because Bane isn't really faster than Anakin, who has encased himself in green light from his lightsaber as of AotC. He's also fought in blurs, fought fast enough to appear in multiple places at once, etc.

Bane is faster than Anakin in my opinion. He can contend with Palpatine.

Plaugeis dashed after Tenebrous just after Tenebrous himself left, in other words, as soon was was possible. Not much of a headstart.

In any case, Plagueis had to call upon deeply on the Force merely to keep up with Tenebrous.

I actually recall that Plagueis caught up with him in the end. Tenebrous isn't faster than Plagueis, only equal, in my opinion.

I have never said Plagueis punched through durasteel.

You said that ripping a durasteel off its hinges is different from punching through it, which is true, but there is no reason for you to point that out since Plagueis didn't do it either.

How about you just give me feats from Bane excluding DoE, so that I won't debate their validity.

There is no reason for you to doubt the validity of the feats. Bane mused that he had slowed down since having the orbalisks removed from his body. Logic dictates that the same would happen with his strength unless an exception is noted.

Anyways, so you're saying Bane is not ahead of Tenebrous in dueling skill now, then?

I said ''about''. Both have no skill feats worth mentioning.

Unless you were trying to say Bane uses more strength in his fighting style than Tenebrous/Plagueis, in which case I would counter by saying all the latter will have to do is increase their own strength usage.

Increasing their own strength with Dark Rage (which is what I assume you meant) would deplete their own energies. Not really a very useful thing to waste powers on.

Sure, but Bane hasn't overpowered Zannah by sheer force of physical strength alone either.

I think he did. At least did she note that she would never be able to compete with him physicaly, Regardless, your point is taken.

I still don't see movement feats to suggest he could stop Tenebrous from outrunning him.

I don't see how Tenebrous' running speed would be a factor. Bane has Sense, precognition etc. Even if Tenebrous' movement speed was superior, it would only help him get closer to Bane, but then, Bane is protected by his orbalisks, and in his duel with Farfalla, he made a point to defend his head. Tenebrous lacks the skill feats to outduel an armored Bane in CQC.

Vader vs Marek, if I recall correctly

Not comparable. Vader was especially immobile because of his cybernetic body, which was explored on in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.

And again, Djem So is known for being immobile, so just accept it as a weakness. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Because, you know, I've never seen Yoda lose a lightsaber duel, so that means he can't?

lol

Prove Tenebrous would succesfully exploit this weakness. Bane has never been hindered by his limited agility (of which reminds me, he did showcase great agility by deflecting every rain drop in a storm for ten minutes). For Tenebrous to exploit this weakness, he would have to get up close, but again, Bane is covered everywhere bar his wrists and head, which he knows are important to defend (not to mention his healing ability with the orbalisks are very fast).

I was asking you how Bane would stop Tenebrous from repelling his own Lightning back at him.

He would stop it with his lightsaber...

Except Bane has no reason to realize Lightning would have as profound an effect on him that it does, and given his carefree tendency to just let his opponents hit him in the belief that he is invulnerable, I don't know why he would just block Lightning rather than try to tank it, in which case he dies.

Bane is not stupid. He only let his opponents hit him when he knew they were fodder. When he fought Farfalla, he defended his exposed parts (lol) valiantly. Likewise, no one is gonna argue that in a fight against Bane, Revan would simply throw away his lightsaber and attempt to block it barehanded. No one is gonna argue that Anakin is gonna lose most of his fights because of the arrogance he displayed when he fought Kenobi. Bane could likely recognize that Tenebrous is a Sith Lord and that Tenebrous' lightning is dangerous.

To be fair, Bane was amped.

Out of curiosity, where does it say this?

@intrepid37: LOL. You forgot to actually quote me, so I didn't receive a PM. I might have never replied to this.

I don't think his firing speed was that much faster. Zannah contended with him for a few moments before convincing him to stop, but he isn't really "vastly" faster. I maintain what I said about Tenebrous's ability to easily repel any telekinetic or Lightning-based assault Bane could muster.

Honestly, he's only faster once the adrenaline pumps into his system and increases his blade speed.

That's quite a stretch. Bane doesn't have reaction feats surpassing Anakin's to suggest he could contend with Palpatine. Assuming he could see Palpatine, he would have difficulty seeing more than blurringly incomprehensible images.

Right, so because Tenebrous stopped and then Plagueis caught up with him that makes them equal? Please. The instance was Tenebrous chipped some of his suit when he ducked under a rock cropping and chipped some of his envirosuit because of his haste. The novel stated he was ten meters ahead of Plagueis at that time.

Punching through general metal as well as the human body and then the same metal armor again on the other side is impressive, given Plagueis's wounds and the fact that he was holding back.

I don't recall this.

Then Bane does not win in the dueling department either.

No, I just meant increasing their general usage. You said even if they had equivalent levels of strength, Bane would utilize his to a greater scale. I am saying Plagueis/Tenebrous would simply replicate Bane's usage of strength in that scenario.

No, he didn't, and Zannah wouldn't be comparable to Plagueis or Tenebrous either. I repeat: when has Bane's strength actually helped him win a duel?

Sense and limited precognition abilities are universally available - and neither aid you in movement. As I said, Tenebrous can outrun Bane while shooting Lightning, which would be his most likely tactic considering his pre-knowledge and tactical calculations would lead him to such a method.

You asked me for a scenario, and I supplied you with one.

And frankly Vader has demonstrated a decent level of jumping and acrobatics along with contorting his body, and honestly better agility than anything Orbalisk Bane has shown.

This is not an agility contest. All I have ever said was that if Tenebrous attempted to attack them head on, he would be able to avoid Bane's strikes by virtue of similar dueling skill and sufficient movement speed and agility, before realizing that he cannot win in a head-to-head matchup and would therefore try to outrun Bane and while shooting Lightning.

And you keep using DoE Bane feats. If I recall correctly, DoE Bane noted his agility had increased, but even if he hadn't, that feat isn't worth much since all he was doing was generating a shield out his blade to deflect the rain, and contort his body in minor ways to dodge the very few drops that passed his defenses. That is an impressive feat of his defensive abilities, not his agility.

I don't think he could stop an entire storm of Lightning if he cast one. But if it is only a few bolts or a small stream of Lightning, I guess this could be the case.

Except his armor is not an exposed part. Bane mistakenly believes his armor is impervious to everything. His head was exposed, but Tenebrous has no reason to be shooting at Bane's head considering he understands what the Orbalisks are from Bane's treatise. Bane has never opted to defend his armor because he believes he does not have to.

Didn't I explain this before? Belia Darzu's Holocron was in a close proximity and it radiated dark side energies that attracted the technobeasts from all over the fortress.

@shootingnova: Lucky that you did check it then. :P

I don't think his firing speed was that much faster.

Not really what I meant. I said that Bane's lightning caused Zannah trouble and, by that, would also cause Tenebrous trouble. You noted that Tenebrous is faster than Zannah, which is true, but then, when Bane fired lightning at Zannah, it was in Dynasty of Evil, not in Rule of Two where he is faster than in Dynasty of Evil.

That's quite a stretch.

Eh. Sidious has never moved too fast for someone as fast as Bane to see. Anakin is extremely fast, but is about equal to Tyranus in speed. Bane is above that.

Right, so because Tenebrous stopped and then Plagueis caught up with him that makes them equal? Please.

Regardless, when Plagueis had started his dash, Tenebrous never moved further away from Plagueis, just kept the same distance. They're equal in speed.

Punching through general metal as well as the human body and then the same metal armor again on the other side is impressive, given Plagueis's wounds and the fact that he was holding back.

Where does it say that he held back?

I don't recall this.

I do. In fact, it specifically notes that he had lost strength as well.

Bane still moved with fierce grace and terrifying intensity. His lightsaber still flickered with blinding speed as he performed his martial drills, yet it was the merest fraction slower than it had once been. The aging process was subtle, but inescapable. Bane accepted this; what he lost in strength and speed he could easily compensate for with wisdom, knowledge, and experience.

-Rule of Two

Then Bane does not win in the dueling department either.

By the virtue of being more skilled? No, but with his orbalisks, he's far more dangerous and effecient as a swordsman in CQC than Tenebrous.

No, I just meant increasing their general usage.

Which would deplete their energies, if I'm understanding you correctly.

I repeat: when has Bane's strength actually helped him win a duel?

Not that this directly answers your question, but even without his lightsaber, Zannah knew she had to be careful of Bane's strength (note how she describes his agility as well).

This confrontation was completely different. Yet even though Bane had no lightsaber, that didn't mean he was helpless. Zannah knew she couldn't simply rush in: despite his bulk, Bane was incredibly quick and agile. He had also learned close-quarters pit-fighting tactics during his days as a miner and soldier. She had to be wary of letting him get close enough to grapple her; she couldn't let him get the opportunity to use his size and strength against her.

-Dynasty of Evil

As I said, Tenebrous can outrun Bane while shooting Lightning, which would be his most likely tactic considering his pre-knowledge and tactical calculations would lead him to such a method.

And again, Bane has his lightsaber, can throw up a Barrier, has his own lightning to counter it with etc.

You asked me for a scenario, and I supplied you with one.

A comparable one, obviously. Bane is not hindered the way Vader is.

Except his armor is not an exposed part. Bane mistakenly believes his armor is impervious to everything. His head was exposed, but Tenebrous has no reason to be shooting at Bane's head considering he understands what the Orbalisks are from Bane's treatise. Bane has never opted to defend his armor because he believes he does not have to.

It's not a stretch to say that Bane would be wary of the danger that Tenebrous' lightning would possess. Not only that, but Bane was hit by five force pikes, a million volts, yet was only staggered. Tenebrous' lightning is not especially powerful and not a million volts. Tenebrous would not bring down Bane with one burst, and after that, Bane would realize that Tenebrous' lightning could potentially kill him if not defended against.

The remaining five struck Bane almost simultaneously, their force pikes sending a million volts of current through his body. The orbalisks absorbed most of the charge, but enough filtered through to jolt him from his teeth down to his toes.

-Rule of Two

Tenebrous is much faster than Zannah. Their speed disparity would be greater than the speed disparity between RoT and DoE Bane. Honestly, the difference between RoT and DoE Bane is extremely minimal, especially if you disregard his feat with the dozen blades since it doesn't make sense.

Anakin has better reaction speeds. Frankly though, Anakin couldn't even see Palpatine so if Bane could manage to be a bit faster than Anakin he would still have difficulty seeing anything above blurring images.

When was this ever stated? Tenebrous is slightly ahead of Plagueis in speed, just not by a significant amount. Not that this really matters since Plagueis is faster than Bane anyways, especially in running speed.

I'll concede that point, but when I read back the pages the wounds were worse than I initially thought. As for Bane's DoE feat where he got drugged - he did get the anti-drug from Lucia, as I recall.

Sure, but he did note it was subtle, meaning it would not be plainly obvious. Frankly speaking any speed/strength loss would have been minimal.

That comes from his invulnerability, self-healing and random adrenaline bursts he receives from the orbalisks. That's acceptable, but he certainly isn't more skilled. If anything, I say the reverse since Tenebrous is ambidextrous and can mix forms (which is what Venamis did). Not that this really matters since neither of them have defeated any notable beings, so yeah.

If they have the same amount of strength as Bane, and Bane simply uses more of his maximum strength in a duel, then Plagueis/Tenebrous would only have to call upon more of their maximum strength in turn. Unless they are both using the maximum levels of strength, but I'm still unsure why we are debating this because Bane's strength has never aided him in a duel against anybody of note.

As I said, Zannah is not comparable to Tenebrous physically, and for that matter Tenebrous doesn't have to be wary of Bane grappling him at all because of his superior movement speed and agility, plus the fact that Bane with his Orbalisks prefers a legitimate duel over grappling somebody, which he has never done. The instance where he was unarmed against Zannah is different because he has lost his primary method of combat and most therefore resort to more unorthodox and unusual means which he does not naturally apply in combat. Plus, that place was strong with the Dark Side which kind of amps Bane.

Regarding how she thinks of Bane as agile - she was saying he was agile for somebody of his size, but frankly I fail to see how this indicates he is any more agile than Tenebrous. Tenebrous has much better agility feats and applies it much more in combat.

Bane's Lightsaber is acceptable, but his own Lightning countering it is something I'm not too sure on. Tenebrous's Lightning has left behind residual sparks long after its initial discharge, which indicates superior potency since Bane has never replicated the same thing. As for his Force Shield, when has that deflected anything on the scale of Lightning?

What makes Bane any more agile than Vader? Vader has demonstrated a decent level of agility, jumping and contorting etc.

Yes, it is. Bane considers his armor invulnerable and does not know how powerful Tenebrous's Lightning is. He allowed Raskta to land half a dozen blows on his body because it was shielded, so he would be willing to allow Tenebrous's Lightning into his system. Regarding a million volts, that sounds like hyperbole in the same way Anakin was said to have have the physical force of a meteor. A million volts is actually a lot.

Then again, the electric charges of the force pikes never left behind residual sparks, as occurs when an incredibly potent source of electricity (such as Tenebrous's Lightning) is used.

And assuming Bane survives, he would at the very least leave him in the floor in a near-dead state, where Tenebrous can either assault him again or use his superior movement speed to get in close and finish him. Again, Bane's Lightning which nearly killed him has never left behind residual sparks long after its discharge.

@shootingnova: Tenebrous is much faster than Zannah.

As is RoT Bane.

Anakin has better reaction speeds.

Anakin has better reaction speeds than Tenebrous as well, but that doesn't mean Tenebrous would get blitzed.

When was this ever stated?

The book has it that Plagueis had to call deeply on the Force to ''keep up''. A quick look in the dictionary tells us what ''keep up'' means.

keep up

• To maintain in good condition: kept up the property.
• To persevere in; carry on: We asked her to stop talking, but she kept it up.
• To preserve or sustain: kept up the appearance of friendship.
• To continue at the same level or pace: The snow kept up all day.

Plagueis never caught up to Tenebrous because they ran at the same speed; not because Tenebrous ran faster.

Sure, but he did note it was subtle, meaning it would not be plainly obvious. Frankly speaking any speed/strength loss would have been minimal.

The text reasons that it is because of age he had lost speed and strength. When he was both younger and had the orbalisks applied to him, he was significantly faster and stronger.

That comes from his invulnerability, self-healing and random adrenaline bursts he receives from the orbalisks. That's acceptable, but he certainly isn't more skilled.

Agreed.

If they have the same amount of strength as Bane, and Bane simply uses more of his maximum strength in a duel, then Plagueis/Tenebrous would only have to call upon more of their maximum strength in turn.

Plagueis' maximum strength hasn't been shown to be equal to orbalisk Bane's though.

As I said, Zannah is not comparable to Tenebrous physically, and for that matter Tenebrous doesn't have to be wary of Bane grappling him at all because of his superior movement speed and agility, plus the fact that Bane with his Orbalisks prefers a legitimate duel over grappling somebody, which he has never done. The instance where he was unarmed against Zannah is different because he has lost his primary method of combat and most therefore resort to more unorthodox and unusual means which he does not naturally apply in combat.

Fair points.

Plus, that place was strong with the Dark Side which kind of amps Bane.

Zannah would be amped as well.

Regarding how she thinks of Bane as agile - she was saying he was agile for somebody of his size, but frankly I fail to see how this indicates he is any more agile than Tenebrous. Tenebrous has much better agility feats and applies it much more in combat.

I never meant to imply that.

Tenebrous's Lightning has left behind residual sparks long after its initial discharge, which indicates superior potency since Bane has never replicated the same thing.

You are vastly overrating Tenebrous' lightning. Bane reduced a couple of riders to ash, charred a drexl to death, has disintegrated stone etc. Bane's lightning feats are better.

As for his Force Shield, when has that deflected anything on the scale of Lightning?

I recall that he absorbed the power of two grenades with it.

What makes Bane any more agile than Vader?

Dodging Zannah's blows while unarmed comes to mind. I was more thinking about Vader's admission that he would never be as agile as a Jedi again, because of the hinderance the suit gives him.

Regarding a million volts, that sounds like hyperbole in the same way Anakin was said to have have the physical force of a meteor. A million volts is actually a lot.

It may be hyperbolic, but what it means is that Bane was hit by incredibly much energy.

Then again, the electric charges of the force pikes never left behind residual sparks,

Because the orbalisks absorbed the electricity.

And assuming Bane survives, he would at the very least leave him in the floor in a near-dead state, where Tenebrous can either assault him again or use his superior movement speed to get in close and finish him.

Tenebrous' lightning has never shown itself to be a million volts. Even if it is, it would only stagger him, not leave him in a state close to death. It is also worth mentioning that Tenebrous' lightning was accompanied by Plagueis'; so Tenebrous' lightning migt not have left sparks after its impact.

@intrepid37: Eh. Sidious has never moved too fast for someone as fast as Bane to see. Anakin is extremely fast, but is about equal to Tyranus in speed. Bane is above that.

What speed feats does Bane have that put's him above Anakin? As Far as I'm concerned this is probably Bane's best speed feat:

When the Zabrak's desperation turned to hopelessness, every impulse in Bane screamed with the desire to take initiative and end the fight.

Instead he let the tantalizing closeness of Sirak's defeat feed his appetite for vengeance. The hunger grew with each passing second until it became a physical pain tearing away at his insides: the dark side filled him and he felt it on the verge of ripping him apart, splitting his skin and gushing out like a fountain of black blood.

He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside him in a tremendous rush of power. He channeled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shutter his forearm, then spun through and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin.

For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what happen; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker then their eyes could see.

--Taken from Path of Destruction

Honestly, Anakin has speed feats that match or maybe even surpass this:

Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"

"My thought exactly."

They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

"Jedi don't need luck," Anakin said, just as the attack droids swarmed into the hangar.

Blaster fire erupted from the droids, aimed at Anakin but scattered enough so that he feared for Marit and the others. The squad dropped, scrambling for their blasters. Anakin saw at once his problems. Gillam and Rolai had found blasters and were trying to aim at him as he moved.

Fire from the droids was heavy. Marit had ducked behind a starfighter. He did not think he could count on help from her. She seemed dazed. He saw the smile of triumph on Gillam's face as he retrieved and aimed his blaster, and Anakin's anger returned. He reached out to the Force. He remembered the lessons he had learned from Soara Antana, the great Jedi Master.

The Force comes from stillness,

she had said.

Find your still center, even in the midst of battle.

He saw time unspool before him like a ribbon. He saw it freeze like ice on a river. He saw that he had infinite time to do everything he needed.

With an outstretched hand he knocked the blaster from Gillam's grasp and sent it flying across the full space of the hangar. It hit the wall so hard it shattered. Gillam's smile disappeared. At the same time he was moving, diverting the droids' blaster fire from where Tulah and Hurana had taken cover, pushing Ze behind a durasteel container, and knocking out one attack droid with a thrust to its control panel.

Suddenly the laser cannons from the starfighter on his right began to fire. Gillam had slipped inside the cockpit. Anakin did not lose his sense of frozen time. He was the master of time. He did not worry about the laser cannons any more than he'd worried about the attack droids. It all seemed so easy. He seemed to see the fire before it came, and he knew how to move to avoid it. His movements were like shimmersilk, so fluid it was as though he did not have muscles and bones, only will.

Now his Master was here. He could feel that, too. But he did not need him. He spun in midair, taking out two battle droids while he leaped through the laser cannonfire straight at the cockpit of the starfighter. With one backward slash he took out the final droid. He had a flash of Gillam's shocked face as he cut through the windscreen with one slice. With one hand, he threw Gillam out of the pilot's seat and then dropped into it. He turned off the engines and disabled the laser cannons.

Siri and Ferus stood, lightsabers drawn, guarding Rolai, Marit, Hurana, Tulah, and Ze. Obi-Wan had captured Rana Halion. Across the space, he looked at his Master. He waited for Obi-Wan to acknowledge him. The mission was over. He had been successful. He had found Gillam and thwarted an invasion. He waited, standing in the cockpit, looking down. He could feel the flush of triumph on his cheeks. Siri glanced at him, as did Ferus. He could see the astonishment on their faces. But his Master never looked up.

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life. But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

--Taken from Jedi Quest: The School of Fear

Bane is faster than Anakin in my opinion. He can contend with Palpatine.

No he can't. Bane has done nothing that suggest he's faster then Anakin.

I was referencing movement speed, but frankly he isn't "vastly" faster than Zannah at all, or else she would have been plainly overwhelmed. Instead, she lasted for some time against a fully-enraged Bane.

Tenebrous doesn't have reaction feats, aside from fighting the Kursid warriors. However, that is a pretty poor usage of syntax on my part. What I wanted to say was that Anakin surpasses Bane in generic fighting speed.

Yes, and Plagueis had to call deeply upon the Force to merely keep up. It doesn't seem to have cost Tenebrous as much strain to keep up that pace.

But frankly, Plagueis should have started running at approximately the same time as Tenebrous, except Tenebrous's departure nearly bowled him over. But regardless of whether Tenebrous is as fast as or is faster than Plagueis, he is still faster than Bane by quite a bit and this is all that matters.

Not "significantly". Again, what strength feats does Orbalisk Bane have to suggest he is "significantly" stronger? As I said, the Orbalisks themselves do not inherently add to your strength, but rather add bursts of adrenaline which pump up your strength for a limited period, but sustained usage of such adrenaline could prove exhausting.

No, I'm not. We have never perceived the effects of Tenebrous's Lightning on the receiving end, so that is a bit ambiguous and difficult to judge. However, we do know that his Lightning could leave behind residual sparks. If Bane's Lightning was truly superior or at least on the same level, his Lightning would have left behind residual sparks as well, but it didn't. That's a pretty good indicator of their Lightning's potency. And Tenebrous's Lightning leaves behind residual sparks by virtue of being powerful, not by virtue of being special (I'm not saying you said that). So Tenebrous doesn't apply "special" types of Lightning, he just leaves behind residual sparks as a result of his power. Bane's power is inferior because he has failed to replicate the same feat.

Which comes from DoE. And this time, you can't argue Bane got weakened because if anything, Bane got stronger in the Dark Side since he supposedly read more ancient texts/holocrons, studied the dark side more intensely, etc. This time it isn't physical strength.

It was reasoned his hand was shaking/he was losing strength because of his immersion in the dark side, which was greater in DoE than it was in RoT.

Vader dodged blows from Ferus Olin without too much effort. Regarding Jedi Anakin, he is much more agile than Bane as well, in part due to the fact that he was proficient in the art of Ataru. Vader being not as agile as he was in the past doesn't mean much when Anakin is more agile than Bane as well.

That's not what I was saying. I meant that if the electric charges were as powerful as Tenebrous's Lightning, they would have left residual sparks where they were positioned before they hit Bane's armor. If anything, they would have left a trail of sparks since the electric pikes moved in a line towards Bane.

Which you just accepted as hyperbole. Bane's own Lightning and the electric-charged pikes never left behind residual sparks long after they were discharged.

It seems to be more potent than Bane's Lightning which all but killed him.

That's a groundless assumption and a pretty illogical one as well. The novel said that the electric charges were left long after the Sith harnessed their powers, meaning them both.

In any case if only one Sith left behind residual sparks it would be Tenebrous's because Plagueis's Lightning has never produced residual sparks in another instance.

@shootingnova:

This debate is becoming tiresom. Can't we just agree to disagree? You're obviously not gonna be convinced that Bane's speed and lightning match and exceed Tenebrous'; and I'm not gonna be convinced that Tenebrous speed and lightning exceed Bane's.

@dccomicsrule2011:

When Anakin can fight fast enough as to appear to wield a dozen lightsabers, then we can compare his abilities to Bane's.

Bane and Zannah win all 3 rounds.

Sure. Not sure why Bane's Lightning even matters though.

When that feat actually makes sense then we can use it. But seriously, Anakin has fought fast enough to appear to be in multiple places at once and encased himself in the light of his blade while he was a padawan.

I see that you have returned after a year and a half.

lol

What?

I can't even remember being here then.

Bane and Zannah still win though. Saying that Tenebrous' lightning is even comparable to Bane's is laughable. Tenebrous' lightning leaving sparks on a wall isn't impressive at all. Bane's lightning has disintegrated a wall. As well as people. He's got a huge lead in that area.

You try to write off Bane blocking a million volts as hyperbole. Do you not think that Plagueis and Venamis appearing as lightning could be hyperbole? Them looking like that was merely Plagueis thinking they might look like that anyway. It was an idle thought of his, nothing more.

Lastly, I find your love of running speed to be faulty. I see no reason why its any different to move your arms or your legs with Force Speed. Either way, Bane was successfully defending against Raskta Lsu, who was moving fast enough to attack from multiple places simultaneously. Unless she can teleport, I think she was running there.

PS, Bane would whoop Kit Fisto and Plo Koon at the same time in a lightsaber duel.

I think that alone seals this debate for me. Goodbye.

Aw. Spoilsport.

You guys sure have some mighty thin skin on here.

@nephthys17: I was being serious. The people on KMC offer Bane some ridiculous hype. Please - the only person he has ever defeated in a duel under his own power was whom, exactly? Oh, right. Sirak.

Koon contended with Ventress with only one arm and Fisto beat Grievous. Does this need any explaining?

Not sure why you are trying to insult us. The amount of hype KMC gives to the likes of Revan and Bane is absolutely hysterical.

As was I. I find the concept of Fisto and Koon beating Bane to very amusing. Defeating opponents is not the sole measure of ability. Bane hasn't faced many opponents because he spent most of his life in hiding, obviously. If we're going just by that, Tenebrous has beaten absolutely no one and would lose to anyone of note. Bane is faster, stronger and much more powerful than them. And power in the Force is the ultimate arbiter of victory. His skill, physical attributes and power make him a top tier combatant, not his record of wins.

Neither Ventress or Grievous are anything next to Bane. And Koon got his ass beat by Opress and Fisto lost to Ventress.

And here goes that Bane hype.

I can concede that Tenebrous loses to Bane with Orbalisks. Not to PoD Bane and or possibly even DoE Bane, a point which even Intrepid conceded to.

As for Bane being faster or stronger - please. His invulnerability via Orbalisks means he can win but by virtue of strength and speed? That's ridiculous.

I am equally as exasperated by your Bane hate. >:p

And I'll concede that PoD Bane probably loses to Tenebrous. Though with Zannah they still win. RoT or DoE Bane though, nah. By that point he's really impressive.

Stronger and faster than Fisto and Koon? Hell yeah he is. By quite a lot actually.

@intrepid37: Anakin has already replicated that when he appeared to be everywhere at once. I fail to see Bane being above Anakin in the speed department.

@nephthys17:

I don't hate Bane at all. I hate fanboys.

I meant not stronger than Ventress or Grievous. Physically. Grievous has kicked Jedi hard enough to shatter small metal pillars, struck so hard that even a tiny scrape of his blade sent Shaak Ti flying, his movement had enough force such that Palpatine was sent flying even though Grievous didn't touch him, ripped open metal doors from elevators, created craters in the ground from the force of leaping upwards, and so on. His strength is greater than Bane's. Ventress doesn't have the best strength feats, but telekinetically she has collapsed stone ceilings and incited small avalanches.

As for speed, Grievous has thrown twenty blows per second, moved/fought invisibly fast, outran volleys of blaster fire from entire platoons plus a gunship, outran missiles, etc. Ventress has generated afterimages, fought in blurring motions, outran missiles, etc. They are faster than regular Bane in combat speed except possibly Orbalisk Bane if we count the twenty blades feat - but still faster in running speed by a significant margin.

For durability, Grievous has tanked explosions, taken missiles to the face without injury, tanked exploding fuel canisters with no injury, etc., all of which surpasses Bane's durability.

Koon losing to Opress isn't that bad of a feat considering Opress has Bane's level of strength and superior durability. As for Fisto losing to Ventress - Makashi is particularly suited to beat Shii-Cho practitioners and Ventress would beat Bane in a duel too if Bane hadn't used Djem So which is effective against Ventress's Makashi.

As for Tenebrous beating PoD Bane, yes, he does, and adding Zannah changes what exactly?

In order to evaluate the speeds of characters, it is helpful to look first at the descriptions of their own actions, and then compare against the abilities of their opponents. This method has one main benefit: By first establishing a realistic "league" within which a character can operate (as I intend to do below) we can then estimate how fast another character might be.

First, let's look at Darth Bane's abilities as described in the beginning of Dynasty of Evil. In this passage, Darth Bane is exercising during a rainstorm and uses his lightsaber to block every single droplet of water from touching his skin. This is actually an absurdly impressive feat, as is demonstrated here. First, it is important to get information about our contestant:

Path of Destruction

[T]he tall, skinny teenager they loved to bully had become a mountain of muscle with heavy hands and a fierce temper. Mining was a tough job; it was the closest thing to hard labor outside a Republic prison colony. Whoever worked the mines on Apatros got big-and Des just happened to become the biggest of them all. Half a dozen black eyes, countless bloody noses, and one broken jaw in the space of a month was all it took for Hurst's old friends to decide they'd be happier if they left Des alone.

Path of Destruction

The ensign was sitting directly across from him. He let out a long, loud whistle. "Blast, you're a big boy," he shouted boisterously. "How tall are you-one ninety? One ninety-five?"

"Two meters even," Des replied without looking at him.

In the real world, Mr Olympia is 5'9" and weighs 280 pounds in the off-season (250 in the on-season). Extrapolating, it is not inconceivable for Bane to weigh 300 pounds.

Using these numbers (200 cm, 300 lbs) I used http://www.globalrph.com/bsa2.cgi this online calculator to estimate Bane's surface area as 2.75 square meters.

The Wookiee lists a lightsaber as being "usually 145 cm" (1.45 m) long and a good estimate (backed up by http://www.sirstevesguide.com/archive/index.php/t-28909.html?s=89e41c31b23f0bcff10a09f4291801af an archived forum) guesses it is 4 cm (.04 m) wide. The surface area of a cross section of a lightsaber blade is thus .058 meters square.

Bane is successful at using is .058 square meter rectangle to defend his entire 2.75 square meter body surface area from rainfall. Dividing the two numbers shows that the lightsaber has to cover an area 62.5 times larger than itself [i]every second[/i]. That's 62.5 places for the lightsaber to be every second.

One possible objection is that counting both the front and back of Darth Bane may overstate his speed. However, the narration of Bane's training exercise is very clear that he is not minimizing surface area, and that both his front and back is in danger at any given time:

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Tiny clouds of hissing steam formed as his blade picked off the descending drops while Bane twisted, twirled, and contorted his body to evade those few that managed to slip through his defenses.

If anything, the surface area of this analysis is understated (because I refuse to do calculus to track his exposure to the rain!)

Now, we have established that the lightsaber is covering an area 62.5 times greater than its own, every single second. Why is that significant? Well, the narration is clear that this is more than a light sprinkling of rain:

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

As the first fat drops splattered onto the patio stones around him, Bane exploded into action. Abandoning the overpowering style of Djem So, he shifted to the quicker sequences of Soresu, his lightsaber tracing tight circles above his head in a series of movements designed to intercept enemy blaster bolts.

The wind rose to a howling gale, and the scattered drops quickly became a downpour. His body and mind united as one, he channeled the infinite power of the Force against the driving rain. Tiny clouds of hissing steam formed as his blade picked off the descending drops while Bane twisted, twirled, and contorted his body to evade those few that managed to slip through his defenses.

For the next ten minutes he battled the pelting storm, reveling in the power of the dark side. And then, as suddenly as it had begun, the tempest was gone, the dark cloud scurrying away on the breeze.

Emphasis mine.

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/watercycleprecipitation.html (government website) lists the number of drops per second per square foot as 1,220. That means that the area covered by the lightsaber at any given moment experiences .058 * 1,220 = 70.75 raindrops per second. Flipping that, we get .014 seconds per raindrop.

If Bane were simply moving his lightsaber up and down then it would travel 2*2 meters (head to toe and back again) in .014 seconds. This results in a speed of 285 m/s. Sadly, Bane is spinning and jumping and greatly increasing the distance his lightsaber has to travel before it can return to any given point. Let's say that the twists, twirls, and contortions triple the distance that the lightsaber has to go. Then we get a speed of 857 m/s, which is very close to the muzzle velocity of an M16 rifle.

Bane is practically in bullet time during his training period, which holds no stakes beyond pride.

Admittedly, this is during LoE while the OP stipulated orbalisks. I think it is enough to repeat that the loss of the orbalisks actually reduced Bane's physical abilities, and that the incarnation I analyzed is actually less physically adept:

He still cut an imposing figure. The powerful muscles built up during a youth spent working the mines on Apatros rippled beneath his skin, flexing with each slash and strike of his lightsaber. But a tiny sliver of the brute strength he once possessed had been whittled away.

(Edit: Sorry about the vb code, it's a new forum and I expected it to be the same :p)

Well, what can I say, I'm no fanboy. I've just read some very convincing arguments over the years.

Yeah, Grievous is stronger than Bane. Obviously, he's a machine. You missed out when he punches a dent in Kenobi's starfighter in RotS. Though Bane can likely amp up his strength to his level or beyond. Loads of people have fought Grievous without getting overwhelmed by his strength.

I do take umbrage at them being faster though. Grievous couldn't even beat Ahsoka, he's not that fast. They aren't faster than Bane. who's IMO one of the fastest combatants in the mythos.

Durability is pointless. One lightsaber blow is all it takes.

Koon didn't lose to Opress through his strength and durability though. Opress reached over and tore his mask off. And I've never heard of Shii-Cho being weak to Makashi. Makashi is just generally well-suited to ALL other forms since its specifically designed for lightsaber fighting. But its hardly a big advantage or some kind of rock-paper-scissors thing. Individual skill and power is always the deciding factor imo. And Bane would beat Ventress with or without Djem So. He's much more powerful than her.

Zannah could beat Tenebrous by herself, so she makes quite a large difference. But if you must know, while Bane is keeping Teny busy, Zannah will have free range to bombard him with sorcery. No way is he surviving.

It was his own ship, not Obi-Wan's starfighter. I missed several things.

Evidence? I have never seen strength feats from Bane superseding Grievous's.

And Bane's strength has never overwhelmed anybody in a duel either.

His speed is sort of nerfed in TCW. The first time he stomped Ahsoka who ran away with help, and the second time she ran away as well, but lasted longer. However, she did last a bit against Ventress so I don't suppose she was the worst duelist ever - and TCW seems to want to make Ahsoka appear stronger than most padawans. Frankly though - Grievous still has his other speed feats which outmatch Bane's. And he overloaded Kenobi's defenses, which frankly surpass either Bane's or Zannah's (considering how he has deflected blaster fire from entire armies).

Yes, they are. Bane has no feats exceeding that of around Anakin's level. There are numerous beings faster than Bane. Off the top of my head - Luke, Caedus, Palpatine, Plagueis, Yoda, Tenebrous, Windu, Vader, Dooku and Grievous.

Somebody as durable as Vader/Grievous has the potential to resist being slain by a single stroke. It has happened before, as you may or may not know.

I realize that - but frankly speaking - that wasn't duelingskill. So honestly, it isn't much of a low feat anyways. I'm not saying Bane couldn't do it - but in dueling skill, where Koon has contended with Ventress with a broken arm and where Fisto has beaten Grievous - speaks for itself. Bane is not the duelist they are.

Does this matter? Unless you are omniscient, you not hearing something doesn't make it invalid. I believe it was referenced to in The Cestus Deception.

Not all forms. The biggest example is Djem So. The heavy usage of physical strength in Djem So is extremely effective against the physically lax Makashi. Makashi's kinetic output is limited and therefore anybody with substantial strength is good against a Makashi practitioner to some degree.

As for why Makahi beats Shii-Cho - Shii-Cho never addressed lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Its larger sweeps were most effective against multiple opponents, and it was also suited to deflecting blaster fire. Neither of these is effective in a one-on-one duel, nor are they useful in any way. While Shii-Cho does not address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, that is the specialty of the Makashi form, which emphasizes economical, elegant dueling against a single opponent. Furthermore, another of Shii-Cho's strengths was the ability to disarm opponents, while a Makashi duelist trained rigorously against this, and a true Makashi master could almost never be disarmed by virtue of dueling. Makashi was practically built as a counter to Shii-Cho by ancient Sith against Jedi.

With his Lightning, he could beat her. By virtue of dueling? No. Does he have "much better" feats in telekinesis? No.

By this logic, Bane's Rule of Two failed. Each successive apprentice would be more powerful than their master, so in their primes, each Sith Lord in the Banite Sith line was more powerful than their predecessor. By loose description, each master's power passed on to their apprentice upon their deaths, which was how Palpatine described it.

Anyways, I fail to see how this is the case. Tenebrous is significantly faster, significantly more agile, significantly more powerful telekinetically, and significantly more powerful protectively. Beyond that - he possesses the ability to cast Force Lightning, something Zannah doesn't have and something that has given her difficulty in the past, and can mix multiple lightsaber forms in combat, something that perhaps Zannah has never seen before. I'm sure even @intrepid37 here would agree with me that Zannah alone does not beat Tenebrous.

PoD Bane? LOL. Tenebrous is much faster and much more agile. His feats with telekinesis (which caused him no strain at all) outstrip Bane's significantly. His ability to erect Force Barriers supersedes Bane by miles. At this point, his Lightning supersedes Bane's too. If Zannah lets Bane come in by himself, she is condemning him to his death, and effectively dooming herself.

As for Zannah's bombarding him with Sorcery - that doesn't seem likely, considering how in all of her duels she began first with a lightsaber and then retreated to use Sorcery. That should be the same here.

The incident with Cynthia is irrelevant because she was fodder. The incident with Set Harth - well, she dueled him first and used sorcery at the end when she had basically beaten him already. The duel against Bane on Ambria took her quite some time to charge up her sorcery for the mental assault - while the tendrils is inapplicable here on Geonosis because she does not have Ambria to amp her.

Round one: Tenebrous takes the majority here.

Round two: Team should win 6/10 times, however, Bane would be the only survivor.

Round three: Same as round two.

@shootingnova: I can concede that Tenebrous loses to Bane with Orbalisks.

So what have we been discussing?

@intrepid37: I said I can, not I did. Meaning that I can be convinced of Orbalisk Bane winning. I haven't been yet.

Though as Intrepid pointed out, a lot of those feats are from the Tartakovsky Clone Wars series, which was heavily stylised and is inconsistent with Grievous' current capabilities. He's been nerfed significantly in the new series.

Evidence? I have never seen strength feats from Bane superseding Grievous's.

If people like Obi-Wan, Ventress and Ahsoka can increase their strength to deal with Grievous', I HIGHLY doubt that Bane wouldn't be able to do the same, given that he's much more powerful than any of them and well as physically stronger in the first place. In fact, in Season 5 Episode 9: A Necessary Bond, Ahsoka engages Grievous in a saber lock and pushes him back. Weep for the depths of Grievous' pussifcation.

And Bane's strength has never overwhelmed anybody in a duel either.

Incorrect. In RoT the sheer strength behind Banes initial attack tears Farfalla's lightsaber from his grasp in one blow. Zannah also mentions how overwhelming his strength is in both their duels.

His speed is sort of nerfed in TCW. The first time he stomped Ahsoka who ran away with help, and the second time she ran away as well, but lasted longer. However, she did last a bit against Ventress so I don't suppose she was the worst duelist ever - and TCW seems to want to make Ahsoka appear stronger than most padawans. Frankly though - Grievous still has his other speed feats which outmatch Bane's. And he overloaded Kenobi's defenses, which frankly surpass either Bane's or Zannah's (considering how he has deflected blaster fire from entire armies).

Ahsoka is stronger than most padawans, but she is still only a 16 year old padawan. That neither Grievous or Ventress could overwhelm her with speed indicates that they aren't nearly as fast as you are saying they are. And no, Grievous' speed isn't above Banes, as Zampano indicated above. He did not overload Kenobi's defense and Kenobi hasn't deflected blaster fire from entire armies. Both of those come from the same section of the RotS novel iirc. And both of them are wildly inconsistent with the movie, which is the ultimate canonical source.

Yes, they are. Bane has no feats exceeding that of around Anakin's level. There are numerous beings faster than Bane. Off the top of my head - Luke, Caedus, Palpatine, Plagueis, Yoda, Tenebrous, Windu, Vader, Dooku and Grievous.

I'm not quite sure how you can say that with a straight face after reading the lengthy post from Zampano above. Bane appearing to wield a dozen lightsabers at once from Zannah's perspective is above all of the guys after Windu (and Windu) on your list. And I'd probably put him above Tenebrous as well. You haven't really convinced me that Tenebrous can roll with the big dogs yet I'm afraid.

Somebody as durable as Vader/Grievous has the potential to resist being slain by a single stroke. It has happened before, as you may or may not know.

I'll give you Vader, though that's because of his armor. And if we're including armor then Bane's the most durable guy around in all likelihood, as nothing can match the orbalisks for raw protection. Grievous though has never resisted a lightsaber strike to my knowledge and Obi-Wan sliced through his hands easily enough .

I realize that - but frankly speaking - that wasn't duelingskill. So honestly, it isn't much of a low feat anyways. I'm not saying Bane couldn't do it - but in dueling skill, where Koon has contended with Ventress with a broken arm and where Fisto has beaten Grievous - speaks for itself. Bane is not the duelist they are.

It kind of is. It might not be a result of dueling skill, but it was a result of combat ability. Savage showed that he was able to reach over and rip off Koon's mask and Koon couldn't stop him from doing that. Savage showed that he was fast enough or dominating enough to do that, and that Koon was beneath him enough not to be able to prevent it.

I don't see beating Grievous as the impressive feat you do. And at any rate, Fisto didn't actually defeat Grievous, the fight was interrupted. Koon fending off Ventress was impressive, but this was merely at the start of her career. She likely wasn't nearly as skilled as she'd later become. As I recall, Fisto "beating" Grievous was right at the start of the Clone Wars too.

Bane meanwhile was beating Kas'im and in RoT he was able to force back Raskta, Farfalla and Johun at the same time in a duel once thier Battle Meditation wore off. Kas'im and Raskta were both two of the most skilled swordsmen in the mythos and even Farfalla's lightsaber form was described as 'perfect'. Bane mastered the lightsaber to the point where Kas'im declared him 'beyond forms' and that he had nothing else to teach him. He mastered hundreds of thousands of lightsaber sequences in a extremely short amount of time and had plenty afterwards to improve on. You underestimate his skills.

Does this matter? Unless you are omniscient, you not hearing something doesn't make it invalid. I believe it was referenced to in The Cestus Deception.

My friend says it doesn't say that in Cestus Deception. And it does matter, as unless I know it to be true I'm going to ask you to actually prove your points.

Not all forms. The biggest example is Djem So. The heavy usage of physical strength in Djem So is extremely effective against the physically lax Makashi. Makashi's kinetic output is limited and therefore anybody with substantial strength is good against a Makashi practitioner to some degree.

As for why Makahi beats Shii-Cho - Shii-Cho never addressed lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Its larger sweeps were most effective against multiple opponents, and it was also suited to deflecting blaster fire. Neither of these is effective in a one-on-one duel, nor are they useful in any way. While Shii-Cho does not address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, that is the specialty of the Makashi form, which emphasizes economical, elegant dueling against a single opponent. Furthermore, another of Shii-Cho's strengths was the ability to disarm opponents, while a Makashi duelist trained rigorously against this, and a true Makashi master could almost never be disarmed by virtue of dueling. Makashi was practically built as a counter to Shii-Cho by ancient Sith against Jedi.

Yeah, I've heard people say that before and I don't really see any evidence for it. You could just as easily claim that the clumsy power-strikes of Djem So leave one open to a precise Makashi riposte.

Well, its not quite true that it never addressed lightsaber combat. Shii-Cho was adapted out of traditional swordfighting afterall. This point is irrelevant enough that I won't waste my time on it, but as I say, I've never actually seen any evidence supporting this argument.

With his Lightning, he could beat her. By virtue of dueling? No. Does he have "much better" feats in telekinesis? No.

Its funny how you think a mere Dark Jedi can match a Dark Lord of the Sith in combat. He'd take her apart in a lightsaber duel through virtue of his superior power and speed. Recall that even though Kas'im was more skilled than Bane, Bane was still winning through just being more powerful. I foresee a similar victory here, though unlike with Kas'im, Ventress isn't actually more skilled than Bane. And yes he is much better with telekinesis. Bane's mere Force Pushes can pulp bones and internal organs and he's disintegrated opponents with a wave of his hand.

By this logic, Bane's Rule of Two failed. Each successive apprentice would be more powerful than their master, so in their primes, each Sith Lord in the Banite Sith line was more powerful than their predecessor. By loose description, each master's power passed on to their apprentice upon their deaths, which was how Palpatine described it.

Anyways, I fail to see how this is the case. Tenebrous is significantly faster, significantly more agile, significantly more powerful telekinetically, and significantly more powerful protectively. Beyond that - he possesses the ability to cast Force Lightning, something Zannah doesn't have and something that has given her difficulty in the past, and can mix multiple lightsaber forms in combat, something that perhaps Zannah has never seen before. I'm sure even @intrepid37 here would agree with me that Zannah alone does not beat Tenebrous.

Is it not your own logic as well? Since you're clearly arguing from the position that Bane is the superior combatant to Zannah and the bigger threat. The Rule of Two is not some infallible law, theres no proof that the Banite Sith conveniently located beings streadily more powerful as apprentices. In fact, such a concept is quite laughable. And it certainly does not seem to be the case. Cognus did not appear to be especially powerful, she simply possessed the ability to blunt the abilities of others, making her a worthy apprentice.

I'm not seeing how Tenebrous is faster than Zannah. He's not wowing me in that area and she was capable of defending adequately against Banes speed without being overwhelmed. Furthermore, her fighting style is such that speed and agility are quite useless against her unless you possess a great advantage over her in those areas. Tenebrous isn't going to be threatening her in lightsaber combat imo. He's not getting through her defenses. Telekinetically I am again not seeing that. While Zannah hasn't demonstrated much, Bane outright admits that he can't beat her in a Force fight. And even as an untrained child Zannah disintegrated a persons arm, instantly killed 2 Jedi by getting pissed, levitated and blocked a firestorm a hell of a lot bigger than the explosion Tenebrous blocked. All of it unconsciously. With an infinitely improved command of her power I think its safe to say she's quite a bit more significant then you're giving her credit for. Zannah had a modicum of difficulty from Bane's lightning, true... which is enough for me to comfortably conclude that she'd have no trouble with Tenebrous' at all. He doesn't hold a candle to Bane in that area.

PoD Bane? LOL. Tenebrous is much faster and much more agile. His feats with telekinesis (which caused him no strain at all) outstrip Bane's significantly. His ability to erect Force Barriers supersedes Bane by miles. At this point, his Lightning supersedes Bane's too. If Zannah lets Bane come in by himself, she is condemning him to his death, and effectively dooming herself.

As for Zannah's bombarding him with Sorcery - that doesn't seem likely, considering how in all of her duels she began first with a lightsaber and then retreated to use Sorcery. That should be the same here.

The incident with Cynthia is irrelevant because she was fodder. The incident with Set Harth - well, she dueled him first and used sorcery at the end when she had basically beaten him already. The duel against Bane on Ambria took her quite some time to charge up her sorcery for the mental assault - while the tendrils is inapplicable here on Geonosis because she does not have Ambria to amp her.

Ehhh, naw. Tenebrous is not much faster than Bane. Nor more agile. Bane can do a standing backflip. I know that's not much but compared to a guy who has shown absolutely nothing with regards to agility its still better. As of PoD, Bane is likely slower than Tenebrous', but not to the extent that he cannot compete with him and tie him up long enough for Zannah to Force-pwn him. I disagree with your assessment of their TK and lol at the Force Barriers. Even Kas'im showed a better Force Barrier than Tenebrous when he blocked Bane's charged up Force Wave that was stated to be capable of liquidating his flesh. Tenebrous blocked an explosion. Not that impressive. And no, Banes lightning is still superior given that he turned a person to ash with a one-handed blast at the start of RoT (which takes place a few days after PoD).

Zannah mostly begins with lightsabers because mostly her opponents run over and engage her in lightsaber combat. Sorcery takes time and effort to perform, so she can't do it while an opponent is swinging at her. And she engaged Bane in lightsaber combat under the prison because he was unarmed and she believed that was enough of an edge. Afterwards she chides herself for making this mistake and realises that Sorcery is her primary and best weapon and she should have opened up with that. In this case she has the time and opportunity to perform it and has no reason not to. She's a defensive fighter in the first place, so she's not going to move in to attack Tenebrous. As I said, while Bane keeps Tenebrous busy, she'll have free reign to dish out sorcerous assualts, and if he tries to attack her, her defenses are more than capable of fending him off long enough to disengage when Bane draws his attention again. Bane and Zannah win every round.

The only thing Intrepid pointed out was that Grievous was nerfed in the TCW. He didn't really care about the other feats.

I can accept Ahsoka not holding a candle to Bane. But Bane is far from much more powerful than Obi-Wan or Ventress. They could contend with Anakin, which is an indication Bane's strength would not overpower them. Ventress has superior TK feats. Kenobi is more skilled in lightsaber dueling and has better defensive ability. I'm sure Intrepid could agree with that.

As for Ahsoka knocking Grievous back, I'm not sure where that one was but it could be the one where she was trying to protect the padawans. Frankly though, TCW doesn't hold much for Grievous and he enjoys being on the wrong side of PIS, CIS and WIS often.

Sure. Regarding Farfalla, I do recall Bane's uniquely curved grip making a difference, but I won't deny his feat as one of strength. That said, pitting his strength against featless people doesn't do him any good. Grievous has killed Tarr Seirr and heavily injured Aayla Secura by slamming them into the ground with his strength. As for Zannah, she was still able to last and was never fully overwhelmed. Obi-Wan had trouble against Grievous and Kenobi supersedes either Bane or Zannah outright in defensive dueling.

Ventress did overwhelm her in the early stages of the Clone Wars. But then again, Bane couldn't speedblitz eight assassins and Ahsoka could kill four Mandalorians instantly. Of course, there's a difference, but not being able to immediately overwhelm Ahsoka really doesn't make them incapable of holding a candle to Bane.

As for Grievous overloading Kenobi's defenses, that was from the RotS novel which is also G-Canon because Lucas edited and approved of it as a supplement to the films. And please, if we aren't allowed to use the EU at all, then this thread might as well not exist.

Bane appearing to wield a dozen sabers from Zannah's perspective should, by all means, overwhelm her. If she is seeing that many afterimages she should simply be plainly overwhelmed in the very first moment. As for Tenebrous, he is at least as fast as Plagueis. That speaks for itself.

Well, Koon did turn around for a second to tell one of the clones to watch out, as I recall.

As for Fisto and Grievous, the novel stated that Fisto had Grievous on the run.

Kas'im and Raskta being one of the most skilled swordsmen ever without any feats? Please. Even Intrepid would not agree with that. As for mastering forms, that alone doesn't necessarily make you a top dog. And for that matter Bane was amped on Lehon since he had been saturated in its dark side aura for longer than Kas'im, and similarly he could have been arguably amped during the duel on RoT too as of his proximity to Belia Darzu's holocron which radiated dark side energies capable of attracting technobeasts from all over the fortress. Bane thinking Kas'im was one of the best swordsmen is irrelevant since he hasn't seen countless other swordsmen. and is still subjective. He lived in an era where there weren't many notable swordsmen anyways.

Johun and Farfalla aren't even that impressive anyways. Johun had spent years mired in politics and what not and I believe even the novel stated his saber skills might have deteriorated. In any case, Zannah noted his skills were quite basic. Farfalla is also featless and hasn't done anything to warrant being that impressive either. And the novel stated that Johun felt his strength and energy plummet once the Battle Meditation was interrupted, and I would think that a similar but likely lesser effect occurred on the others as well.

Except it didn't.

"Because the ancient Jedi did not have lightsaber wielding enemies, Form I does not address the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat."

Source: Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force

As for Djem So, I'm not sure where you read that it was clumsy but I don't think a Makashi duelist would be in a position to accurately riposte if he is spending his strength lavishly on just meeting somebody's blows without being cut in half, which was how it was described in the RotS novelization. Not that this even matters because this has never been stated to date until you can tell me where.

Titles are kind of useless in a fight, don't you agree?

Regarding superior power and speed - certainly not PoD Bane. Power as in strength, I assume? Because I said skill. Not strength. Not speed.

As for Kas'im, Bane had pre-knowledge of Kas'im's fighting styles and techniques. Once Kas'im used something Bane didn't have pre-knowledge of he began to lose the duel. And for that matter, Kas'im is still featless. What exactly makes him any better, than, say, Anoon Bondara?

And those feats were done in DoE, as I recall, where his Dark Side power and knowledge increased, plus the Stone Prison was strong in the Dark Side so he was amped to some degree. Ventress collapsing stone ceilings and causing avalanches plainly supersedes anything Bane has done up to RoT, and is more than comparable to anything done in RoT as well.

Are you serious? Cognus didn't even have any training in DoE, so we have no idea how powerful she was going to become. Her abilities of DoE exceeded Bane's pre-Sith abilities. That's still bad logic, of course, but much more comparable than an untrained Cognus pitted against fully-trained Sith. Assessing Cognus when she had never been trained in using the Force and assuming that to be her prime is absolutely hysterical.

Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient.

Source: Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side

Tenebrous is at least as fast as Plagueis, who supersedes Zannah in speed quite easily. As for agility, he has fought hundreds of Kursid warriors with Plagueis using only a force pike and managed to emerge unscathed.

Telekinetically, Zannah does not have feats on Tenebrous's level. I am waiting for feats. I'm really unsure how you levitate a firestorm so yeah......

Tenebrous is much faster than Bane. He is at least as fast as Plagueis, whose movement was tracked as blurs by a droid who could dodge blaster bolts with no issue and his dueling would have been perceived as lightning streaking through a forest understory, which, mind you, is not the most friendly environment. For agility, as I noted above he was able to fight hundreds of Kursid warriors with Plagueis using a force pike and exercising speed and agility (and of course stamina and fighting skill). That supersedes anything Bane has done agility-wise. And Plagueis noted that he was only slightly more agile than Tenebrous in Darth Plagueis. Plagueis is decently agile himself.

As for Kas'im's Force Barrier - that's hardly an applicable feat when he was outright amped and almost certainly by a large amount. It did not require Tenebrous much effort at all to repel an explosion which could sunder entire mines. That would have destroyed a droid (as was stated) and that's frankly better than liquidating flesh. For that matter, liquidate means kill according to the dictionary. I'm assuming you are referring to "liquify". However, as impressive as this feat is both Bane and Kas'im were plainly amped significantly when this occurred, plus Bane was charging up his attack while Kas'im was talking.

As for the Lightning, Bane has still not left residual sparks long after the harnessing of his powers. And no, it wasn't on a wall, it was in the air. Bane's Lightning feat occurred while he had a few Orbalisks on his body, which is still an amp.

I'm not sure why Tenebrous might not attack her with a blade, but even so I don't recall Zannah opting to go for Sorcery first in any scenario because, as you said, it requires effort. Aside from using it on fodder like Cynthia, she has always waited until the end to us her sorcery.

In any case - this discussion is becoming quite tiring. As Intrepid asked me to agree to disagree, I would ask you to do the same. While I can accept Orbalisk Bane winning, I have no idea how on earth PoD Bane wins. Intrepid conceded that instantly the moment he realized it.

But then again, Bane couldn't speedblitz eight assassins

As for Grievous overloading Kenobi's defenses, that was from the RotS novel which is also G-Canon because Lucas edited and approved of it as a supplement to the films. And please, if we aren't allowed to use the EU at all, then this thread might as well not exist.

Bane did speedblitz those assassins. He killed the first one he came up against with a single slash the guy couldn't react to then killed two more in another slash. The only reason they lasted any amount of time is that he purposefully left himself open to attack believing his orbalisks invincible and got zapped for it. Afterwards he again comes up against a single one of them and kills him in a flurry of attacks leaving "half a dozen fatal wounds scored across his chest and face." Then finally he cuts down the remaining four like so: "The assassins fell on Bane again, but instead of repelling them with the Force, he allowed his body to become a conduit, turning himself into a physical manifestation of the dark side's tumultuous power. As he spun like a whirlwind, his blade seemed to be everywhere at once: hacking, slashing, and slicing his enemies to ribbons."

I did not suggest that we cannot use the EU, I said that thoses scene are non-canon because they contradict the movie. It doesn't matter if Lucas approves it in the novel if he later contradicts it in the highest form of canon. Kenobi obviously doesn't block blasterfire from an army in the film, Grievous specifically tells his droids not to fire and Kenobi is never fired upon after that. And Grievous was said to 'overload' Kenobi's defense by attacking 20 times a second. Bro, Grievous doesn't even attack 20 times before Obi takes one of his hands, which is what signals him being overloaded. Therefore, it never occurred. The RotS novel may have been line-read by Lucas, but it is so wildly inconsistent with the actual movie that my advice is to mostly ignore it.

Well, Koon did turn around for a second to tell one of the clones to watch out, as I recall.

As for Fisto and Grievous, the novel stated that Fisto had Grievous on the run.

Kas'im and Raskta being one of the most skilled swordsmen ever without any feats? Please. Even Intrepid would not agree with that. As for mastering forms, that alone doesn't necessarily make you a top dog. And for that matter Bane was amped on Lehon since he had been saturated in its dark side aura for longer than Kas'im, and similarly he could have been arguably amped during the duel on RoT too as of his proximity to Belia Darzu's holocron which radiated dark side energies capable of attracting technobeasts from all over the fortress. Bane thinking Kas'im was one of the best swordsmen is irrelevant since he hasn't seen countless other swordsmen. and is still subjective. He lived in an era where there weren't many notable swordsmen anyways.

Johun and Farfalla aren't even that impressive anyways. Johun had spent years mired in politics and what not and I believe even the novel stated his saber skills might have deteriorated. In any case, Zannah noted his skills were quite basic. Farfalla is also featless and hasn't done anything to warrant being that impressive either. And the novel stated that Johun felt his strength and energy plummet once the Battle Meditation was interrupted, and I would think that a similar but likely lesser effect occurred on the others as well.

He didn't turn, though yes he did shout a warning to one of them.

Novel?

I don't give a crap what Intrepid would agree with. He's not my nanny and we disagree on a great many things. Kas'im is very much one of the greatest swordsman ever. Not because Bane thinks so, no, because of the reasons he gives for thinking that way: "Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy." Thats a level of technical ability beyond... anyone I can actually think of at the moment. Kas'im knows every form in at least single, dual and double lightsaber styles, honed his skill in them to perfection and evidently knew them well enough to create thousands of sequences for all of them. And as I recall Raskta was stated to rival him in skill. And I believe it after reading the descriptions of her skill in RoT. There's too much to post here, but you should re-read it, its impressive stuff. As for feats, she was said to have killed more Sith Lords than the Thought Bomb. I'm pretty sure that's a lot.

Farfalla was one of the top Jedi generals in the war and seemed to be the de-facto leader of the Order after it. And he did defeat Kopecs, who killed a squad of the best Republic soldiers before they could fire more than once. And again, his form was described as perfect. Johun sucks tho.

Titles are kind of useless in a fight, don't you agree?

Regarding superior power and speed - certainly not PoD Bane. Power as in strength, I assume? Because I said skill. Not strength. Not speed.

As for Kas'im, Bane had pre-knowledge of Kas'im's fighting styles and techniques. Once Kas'im used something Bane didn't have pre-knowledge of he began to lose the duel. And for that matter, Kas'im is still featless. What exactly makes him any better, than, say, Anoon Bondara?

And those feats were done in DoE, as I recall, where his Dark Side power and knowledge increased, plus the Stone Prison was strong in the Dark Side so he was amped to some degree. Ventress collapsing stone ceilings and causing avalanches plainly supersedes anything Bane has done up to RoT, and is more than comparable to anything done in RoT as well.

Not if they're earned.

No, you said he couldn't beat her in dueling. He obviously can.

He is not stated to have been amped, quite the opposite, at the time his power was still being dampened through drugs. So it either balances out or he was weaker than normal. Even in PoD (though its right at the start of RoT) Bane crushes people with the Force "The Force wave slammed into the woman's back, pulverizing her spine and snapping her neck as it drove her facedown into the dirt and pinned her against the ground. Her corpse twitched once, then went forever still" and I hold RoT Bane disintegrating a dozen attacker with a thrust of his hand to be above those things you said. Avalanches can be caused through a minor push at some loose rock as seen in Shatterpoint and iirc Ventress collapsing a stone ceiling was in the Clone Wars series which had everyone operating at a higher level than normal.

Telekinetically, Zannah does not have feats on Tenebrous's level. I am waiting for feats. I'm really unsure how you levitate a firestorm so yeah......

No, she levitated and she blocked a firestorm. Two separate events. She uses a Force bubble to protect herself from the Force Storm Bane and the BoD unleash on Ruusan. She falls off a cliff but levitates to safety. And the firestorm she protected herself from consumed miles of terrain and Bane stated it could destroy the entire surface of Ruusan. Zannah disintegrating her cousins arm is an extremely powerful feat in my book, and she did it unconsciously as a child. Furthermore at the start of RoT she tries to trip Bane up with TK and he's surprised at just how strong she was. Plus she pulverised someone with TK in DoE. And anyway, Bane believing he couldn't overpower her leads me to definitely put Zannah firmly above the likes of Ventress.

As for the Lightning, Bane has still not left residual sparks long after the harnessing of his powers. And no, it wasn't on a wall, it was in the air. Bane's Lightning feat occurred while he had a few Orbalisks on his body, which is still an amp.

I fail to see how thats impressive in the slightest, or in anyway comparable to Bane's disintegration feats. I would suggest that the amp is negligable, and point out that he only used one hand to do it. And Bane disintegrates soldiers, a stun net, a chunk of wall and melts blasters with lightning in DoE. So he can obviously disintegrate stuff without the orbalisks.

Seriously, residual sparks? Whats so impressive about that?