Darth Tenebrous Vs. Darth Bane and Darth Zannah

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shroudofsorrow

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#1  Edited By shroudofsorrow

Setting is the Geonosis Execution Arena, with a whole crowd of Geonosians watching the spectacle.

Round 1: Darth Bane is post-Russan but pre-Orbalisk

Round 2: Orbalisk Bane

Round 3: Same as Round 2 but the Arena Beasts (The Reek, The Acklay and the Nexu) are all also present..

Who wins?

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Versus

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shroudofsorrow

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#2  Edited By shroudofsorrow

Bump

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Pharoh_Atem

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#3  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@shroudofsorrow: What are Darth Tenebrous feats?

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Lord_Johnathan

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#4  Edited By Lord_Johnathan

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@shroudofsorrow: What are Darth Tenebrous feats?

This

Because I want him to win because he looks so damned awesome.

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shroudofsorrow

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#5  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@dccomicsrule2011 and @Lord_Johnathan:

Gimmie a moment...

To shamelessly quote ShootingNova:

"...supporting mine ceiling that was collapsing, bolting with a speed sufficient enough to nearly knock Plagueis over from the sheer speed, repelled explosions that could destroy mines using a Force Barrier, fought hundreds of Kursid Warriors alongside Plagueis, and projected lightning that left behind sparks for some time after he had stopped casting the lightning."

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Pharoh_Atem

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#6  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@shroudofsorrow: I'm leaning Tenebrous round one but the team for round 2 and 3.

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JamesKM716

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#7  Edited By JamesKM716

Round 1: Tenebrous stomps.

Round 2: Bane wins majority, ONLY because of Orbalisk armor.

Round 3: Bane wins majority, ONLY because of Orbalisk armor.

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ShootingNova

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#8  Edited By ShootingNova

@shroudofsorrow: Since you asked me to bump it, I will. And when I was referencing the "weird part" of this thread, I meant the three beasts. Adding in extra obstacles, to be precise. Oh, and which Zannah is this? It won't make much difference, though.

For the first round, Tenebrous all but stomps. He is significantly faster than Bane or Zannah, to the point that I would hesitate to say they could connect a single blow. Beyond that, he is simply a better telekinetic. Regarding dueling, none of them have any feats of note - the only person Bane has defeated in a duel was Sirak, who doesn't hold a candle to Tenebrous, and the only person Zannah has ever defeated was Set Harth, whom also doesn't hold a candle to Tenebrous. Given how he was implied to be around Plagueis's skill with a blade, had trained both him and Venamis, and was presumably a master of all the seven forms (he trained Plagueis, who trained Sidious), he does seem to be decent. Beyond that, he has fought hundreds of Kursid warriors with Plagueis before, using only force pikes yet both of them emerged unscathed. With that in mind, then I would honestly favor him over the other two as duelists. It simply seems more plausible, given how he was known to be a physical master and considering his position near the end of the Banite Sith line, this wouldn't be surprising.

Not that it would really matter since Tenebrous's vastly transcendent speed, supplemented with outright superior TK is more than sufficient to win him a vast majority, if not 10/10.

The second round - the only difference is that Bane is now impervious to Tenebrous's lightsaber attacks. That said, his Lightning would end Bane, considering how his usage of it left behind residual sparks for some time after he had used it. While the direct output of his Lightning is never shown, that feat alone corresponds to having better Lightning than Bane, and that would be more than enough to end Bane, as I said. That said, this fight doesn't change much since Tenebrous retains his enormous speed advantage. Even assuming he attempts a lightsaber attack on Bane first, neither Bane nor Zannah would be capable of responding with an effective counterattack because, again, Tenebrous is greatly superior in the speed department. That said, Tenebrous might recognize the Orbalisks given how I believe he may have been a recipient of Bane's Rule of Two text, and he did seem to have lots of knowledge on Bane, so there's always a possibility of him using Lightning from the get-go. If Bane attempts to use Lightning then Tenebrous would sent it back at him and Bane would suffer his demise at his own hands.

The beasts in the third round are irrelevant since they can't possibly hope to tag Tenebrous. If anything, they would simply serve as telekinetic material for him to throw at Bane & Zannah. While if they turned on Bane and Zannah, Zannah could potentially be hurt (although her sorcery would probably cause it be otherwise, but still).

For the shorter version, Tenebrous is simply vastly transcendent in speed, has superior telekinesis, and superior protection capability. His opponents' Lightning and TK are rendered irrelevant in this scenario simply because his Force Shield feat surpasses anything they have ever shown.

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Intrepid37

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Tenebrous loses all. He gets outright stomped in round 2.

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shroudofsorrow

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@shootingnova: Now that's what I'm talking about!

One thing though: didn't Silver say that Bane augmented by Orbalisks had lightning sufficient to reduce a Drexl and it's rider to ash? I'd say that's a pretty good lightning feat.

LOL at the image of Tenebrous hurling the three giant creatures at Bane and Zannah with the Force

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ShootingNova

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#11  Edited By ShootingNova

@shroudofsorrow: It is a good feat, but I don't know why you would raise it up unless you assume it can break through Tenebrous's Force shield, which has repelled explosions that destroyed entire mines.

Throwing the beasts might have been a stretch but is certainly plausible. It's just Tenebrous likely won't do it.

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ShootingNova

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#12  Edited By ShootingNova

Not sure why Tenebrous would get stomped since the Orbalisk armor still doesn't give Bane the ability to connect blows with Tenebrous on equal footing. There are still small flecks of uncoated skin peaking out, and Lightning would still be of great effect against him.

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shroudofsorrow

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#13  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@shootingnova: I mostly meant it in regards to whether or not Bane could match Tenebrous' lightning with his own. You didn't seem to think that he could, but again, Bane's lightning when amped by the Orbalisks was pretty intense.

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ShootingNova

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#14  Edited By ShootingNova

@shroudofsorrow: As I said, the direct power output of Bane's Lightning is superior by default simply because we have never had the opportunity to observe the effects of Tenebrous's Lightning, aside from the fact that "it's red" and "it leaves behind residual sparks for some time after the initial discharge". The former I won't associate with power, since that is the right thing to do, but the latter is still something Bane has never replicated.

That said, Tenebrous has no reason to use Lightning against Bane's Lightning. He could catch it on his lightsaber, repel it with a Force Barrier or just outright avoid it. The chance of him meeting Bane's Lightning with his own is practically nil.

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ShootingNova

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#15  Edited By ShootingNova

Hmmm.... I'm not sure if I fully considered the Orbalisk Bane's general amps to TK. He has atomized a few techno-beasts - but then again, that was in Tython, a world very strong in the Force, and with a hint of the Dark Side still there.

And that still shouldn't be ahead of Tenebrous's Barrier either.

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shroudofsorrow

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#16  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@shootingnova: That gets me curious: when was there a DS presence on Tython? After all the planet is generally considered the Jedi's Korriban

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ShootingNova

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#17  Edited By ShootingNova

@shroudofsorrow: It's a very strong Force nexus, but following the Force Wars there was a very minor hint of the Dark Side on Tython - as evinced by the TOR encyclopedia.

Beyond that, Belia Darzu's fortress was a bastion of Dark side power, and that was where Bane performed this feat:

Tython, revered by many as the birthplace of the Jedi Order itself, was now a bastion of dark side power, and the location of Belia Darzu's hidden fortress.

Source: Rule of Two

Once the homeworld of the ancient Jedi Order, Tython was scarred by the dark side during a series of conflicts that nearly tore the Jedi Order apart. More than 20,000 years later, the darkness has faded -- but in some areas the insidious blight still corrupts the natural beauty of Tython.

Source: The Old Republic Encyclopaedia

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@shootingnova: From what do you get the huge speed difference? First i have to say i have read nothing with Tenebrous in it so i am really curious. Is knocking Plagueis to the ground with his speed the only feat for his speed? Because Bane,during training,stood in rain and moved his lightsaber fast enough to create a shield above his head to stop raindrops from hitting his body.

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ShootingNova

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#19  Edited By ShootingNova
@stompa said:

From what do you get the huge speed difference? First i have to say i have read nothing with Tenebrous in it so i am really curious. Is knocking Plagueis to the ground with his speed the only feat for his speed? Because Bane,during training,stood in rain and moved his lightsaber fast enough to create a shield above his head to stop raindrops from hitting his body.

Tenebrous has moved fast enough to nearly knock over Plagueis, and Plagueis has been forced to call upon the Force deeply merely to keep up with him. Plagueis alone has better speed feats than Bane - his movements were a blur to a droid that could dodge blaster bolts and he has fought with Venamis so fast that an onlooker from a fort would have perceived their duel as lightning streaking through the forest understory. And mind you, they were fighting in a forest. Had it been on neutral ground without obstacles they would have been faster.

Beyond that - Bane's rain drop deflection is impressive but occurred in his prime, ten years after the Bane in this novel. And his lightsaber alone was not enough to stop the raindrops - the few drops that passed through his defenses would have hit him, but obviously he called upon the Force to twist and contort out of the way.

Both Tenebrous and Plagueis have fought hundreds of Kursid warriors with only Force pikes, and emerged unscathed.

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JediXMan

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#20 JediXMan  Moderator

Honestly, I think that DoE Bane surpasses Orbalisk Bane, simply because he didn't rely on the Orbalisks, which would be his problem here. They also have a very big, easily exploitable weakness. DoE Bane is underestimated far too often.

Still, Tenebrous should win here.

PS: I want more feats from Zannah. Zannah solo novel - make it happen! But only if written by Luceno...

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ShootingNova

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#21  Edited By ShootingNova
@jedixman said:

Honestly, I think that DoE Bane surpasses Orbalisk Bane, simply because he didn't rely on the Orbalisks, which would be his problem here. They also have a very big, easily exploitable weakness. DoE Bane is underestimated far too often.

Still, Tenebrous should win here.

PS: I want more feats from Zannah. Zannah solo novel - make it happen! But only if written by Luceno...

Agreed. DoE Bane had more cunning and tactical play in battle. I think he has slightly better speed, too.

I want a novel on Tenebrous and Plagueis. By Luceno, of course.

Both have very high potential as characters and could be developed (by Luceno) very well. That, and we need more feats for both (especially Tenebrous) and we also should explain midi-chlorians and especially maxi-chlorians a bit more.

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#22 JediXMan  Moderator

@shootingnova:

There's a bunch of Sith novels I want:

  • Darth Zannah and Cognus
  • Darth Cognus and Darth Millennial (probably a novella sequel to Zannah and not a full novel)
  • Darth Gravid and Darth Gean
  • Darth Tenebrous and Darth Plagueis
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ShootingNova

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@jedixman: Agreed on all. That said, I want a Vectivus novel. He has potential.

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#24  Edited By Intrepid37

I fail to see Tenebrous' speed advantage. In fact, Bane has displayed greater combat speed when he appeared to wield a dozen lightsabers. His lightning is more powerful as well and his TK outclasses Tenebrous. Strength and durability also goes to Bane. With Zannah, it's a stomp.

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#25  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

@jedixman: Agreed on all. That said, I want a Vectivus novel. He has potential.

Novella, perhaps.

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ShootingNova

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#26  Edited By ShootingNova

@jedixman: He hasn't been elucidated enough on.

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: Uhm... no it wasn't. Bane appeared to wield a dozen lightsabers in Rule of Two when he pretty much stomped Zannah.

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#28  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

@jedixman: He hasn't been elucidated enough on.

Yeah, but I don't know if he needs a full novel. But maybe it could work. Let's face it: if Luceno wrote it, it would work.

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ShootingNova

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@intrepid37: Oh, that was what you were talking about. Scrap what I said earlier.

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#30  Edited By ShootingNova

@jedixman: If Luceno wrote it, anything would work. But Vectivus honestly has more potential than somebody like Millenial. So he should deserve a novel. That said, I would prioritize him last. I want the Tenebrous and Plagueis novel first, then the Zannah and Cognus.

@intrepid37 said:

Uhm... no it wasn't. Bane appeared to wield a dozen lightsabers in Rule of Two when he pretty much stomped Zannah.

And he didn't stomp Zannah. She was actually holding against him fairly decently - she was just about to get overwhelmed. Still, that doesn't surpass Plagueis's feat where his duel with Venamis left residual streams of light from their blades spread across the forest such that it appeared their duel was actually just lightning streaking through the forest.

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: Per her own admission, she only survived because she convinced him that her intention was to help him. And no, it doesn't surpass Plagueis' feat, but it's not below it. I'd say about equal.

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#32  Edited By ShootingNova

@intrepid37: She still lasted a decent amount of time.

The reason Plagueis's feat is superior is not just the fighting speed, but also the running speed in conjunction that allowed him to accomplish such a feat. Beyond that, this occurred in a forest, where the terrain could easily obstruct running and potentially even fighting. Plagueis would be even faster on neutral ground, which also happened to be where he couldn't keep up with Tenebrous and almost got bowled over by the sheer speed. If anything, Bane's running speed is nil by comparison.

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Intrepid37

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How does it display running speed? The lightning was conjured out of the blurs that his lightsaber created which is combat speed, not running speed. If anything, Tenebrous' combat speed is nil by comparison.

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ShootingNova

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@intrepid37: Right. So somehow you make it appear if Lightning streaked through the entire forest understory while standing still. He was running and fighting at the same time.

Tenebrous does have combat speed. He fought hundreds of Kursid warriors without a scratch. That's decent enough to make sure he doesn't get blitzed speed-wise, and both Bane and Zannah still have nil running speed.

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: Same goes for Bane. You think he stood still while fighting so fast? I see no disparity in combat speed and running speed between Bane and Tenebrous.

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#36  Edited By ShootingNova
@intrepid37 said:

Same goes for Bane. You think he stood still while fighting so fast?

Considering we have no idea how many little steps he took and Djem So is known for being an immobile form - I don't see how this means anything. This is hardly a legitimate running feat.

On the other hand, Tenebrous has some combat feats nonetheless. Plagueis was explicitly stated to have been moving around. Bane simply moving forward involuntarily as he always would in a duel does not match up with Plagueis's feat. Not to mention Bane did it on neutral ground, while Plagueis did it in an very unfriendly environment with plenty of obstacles.

I see no disparity in combat speed and running speed between Bane and Tenebrous.

I see a contradiction between that, and:

@intrepid37 said:

If anything, Tenebrous' combat speed is nil by comparison.

Beyond all of that, Tenebrous is vastly superior tactically as well. Bane is a slave to his instincts while Tenebrous can mathematically calculate the future.

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#37  Edited By Intrepid37

@shootingnova: I was just phrasing it the way you did.

Fact is, Bane's combat speed is top tier. Tenebrous' combat speed does not surpass Bane's. I have no idea why you're so eager to settle it so.

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ShootingNova

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#38  Edited By ShootingNova

I was just phrasing it the way you did.

LOL, what? Except the feat I was explaining was a legitimate conjunction of running and dueling speed. As I said, what exactly has Bane accomplished via movement speed? Nothing near Plagueis, whom is quite a bit inferior to Tenebrous.

Fact is, Bane's combat speed is top tier. Tenebrous' combat speed does not surpass Bane's. I have no idea why you're so eager to settle it so.

You know, you kind of ignored the first round here, where he doesn't have the armor. You still said Tenebrous lost. And honestly, I'm unsure why.

And I'm assuming top tier is Palpatine/Luke level? Because if it was, he would have blitzed Zannah, blitzed Hetton, and blitzed all the Shadow assassins. He didn't. Which also reminds me - if those assassins were able to contend with Bane, I wonder how Tenebrous's speed would be nil in comparison.

You're also still ignoring Tenebrous's vastly superior tactical advantage. Especially when he is in the Orbalisk armor, Bane can't form any strategies - he's just charge. Tenebrous could outrun him (especially in round 3 where he has the beasts as cover) and use his calculating skill (which could calculate the future mathematically) to find some tactic with which he could win.

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: Since when is Plagueis inferior to Tenebrous? This happened decades before Plagueis was in his prime, and Plagueis also brought down the ceiling onto Tenebrous so fast that Tenebrous nearly couldn't comprehend it.

No, I was referring to Plagueis, Yoda etc.

I doubt it would help him. What would he do? Outlast Bane? He failed to calculate that Plagueis would end him when he did.

As for the first round, he would lose on the basis that there are two opponents, both able to react to him, and both with more than enough skill to defend themselves,

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ShootingNova

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#40  Edited By ShootingNova
@intrepid37 said:
Since when is Plagueis inferior to Tenebrous? This happened decades before Plagueis was in his prime, and Plagueis also brought down the ceiling onto Tenebrous so fast that Tenebrous nearly couldn't comprehend it.

Plagueis has never demonstrated superior running speed since 67BBY, considering that his two best speed feats in general (the Lightning one with Venamis and running as a blur to a droid who could dodge blaster bolts) were accomplished in that same year.

And you always mention it was before his prime - sure, but he had spent about a hundred years already. The next 35 years were more political manipulation than physical prowess, as Plagueis himself noted. Plagueis has never shown any speed increase since 67BBY.

No, I was referring to Plagueis, Yoda etc.

Well then that isn't top tier.

He failed to calculate that Plagueis would end him when he did.

Actually - he did. He foresaw his own death at Plagueis's hands and Plagueis didn't realize that for some time. Later he entered Plagueis's body and foresaw Plagueis's death whilst eternally clouding Plagueis's foresight powers. When he realized Plagueis's death would place his plans in jeopardy, he quickly ejected himself out of Plagueis out of fear, and then he ended up placing himself into an eternal loophole. This is from The Tenebrous Way.

As for the first round, he would lose on the basis that there are two opponents, both able to react to him, and both with more than enough skill to defend themselves,

Well of course both can react to him (LOL?). The fact is, he is still far more powerful tactically, more powerful protectively, much faster, and more powerful telekinetically. That's impressive considering how they had three novels and some comics, while Tenebrous had one chapter.

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: I fail to see how those advantages will help him against two opponents. Since you put so much stock into Silver's opinion, in the link you PM'ed me, he said that Tenebrous wouldn't solo Koon and Fisto; a duo that's hardly better than Bane and Zannah.

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#42  Edited By ShootingNova

@intrepid37: I don't rely on Silver's opinion, I use it as a supplement.

Beyond that - Koon and Fisto are much better as duelists, and also Koon has collapsed a cave via TK, better than anything Bane and Zannah have ever shown combined.

I fail to see how those advantages will help him against two opponents.

His speed is vastly above a single one of them - so it certainly helps him fight off two at once (not that he would attempt to employ such a tactic anyways). Being telekinetically superior certainly means much, and you should know why. Being protectively more powerful is important because any Lightning or TK attack the duo send can't bypass his Force Shield. Being tactically superior is obviously of help - no need to explain that.

In contrast - let's see what the duo supersedes Tenebrous in:

1. Strength: Only Bane does, but in round 1 he would have difficult actually connecting with Tenebrous anyways, and in the other rounds as I said Tenebrous can organize a discretion-based retreat and calculate his strategies and methods there. He still has the potential to outrun them. That said, I will still give strength to the team.

2. Dueling: Ambiguous. Regarding actual dueling feats, I'm hesitant to really give the team much of an advantage since they haven't defeated anybody who could hold a candle to Tenebrous. Form and exotic weapon mastery/versatility goes to Tenebrous.

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@shootingnova: Koon and Fisto are much better as duelists

That's a stretch.

Koon has collapsed a cave via TK, better than anything Bane and Zannah have ever shown combined.

Combined? Not really. Zannah has killed with single Force pushes. Bane has pulverized organs in several guards with a Force wave. Bane and Zannah combined are vastly more powerful than Koon.

Being telekinetically superior certainly means much, and you should know why.

Considering Tenebrous' intimate love for dueling, I doubt he would use telekinesis all that much. His speed is superior, yes, but he lacks skill feats. Zannah could defend against him. What would he do if he can't penetrate her defense or Bane's onslaught? Speed only goes so far.

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#44  Edited By ShootingNova
@intrepid37 said:

That's a stretch.

No, it isn't. Koon has held his own against Ventress while injured and Fisto has beaten Grievous. Bane has beaten Sirak, and Zannah has beaten Set Harth. They are quite a bit ahead.

Combined? Not really. Zannah has killed with single Force pushes. Bane has pulverized organs in several guards with a Force wave. Bane and Zannah combined are vastly more powerful than Koon.

Not sure how killing singular, regular fodder people who can't use the Force to defend themselves translates to being vastly better than collapsing a cave. And Zannah killing with a push was done on an unsuspecting Lucia - not that it would matter anyways since she would still be unable to defend herself. This is also not involving Fisto's TK.

Considering Tenebrous' intimate love for dueling, I doubt he would use telekinesis all that much. His speed is superior, yes, but he lacks skill feats. Zannah could defend against him. What would he do if he can't penetrate her defense or Bane's onslaught? Speed only goes so far.

Speed goes very far, and quite far in this circumstance. It not only allows him to hold them off but also potentially penetrate their defenses, since they simply can't fight him as they would anybody around their speed level. Bane won't be launching any onslaught in the first place (not in the first round) unless he wants to commit suicide.

Beyond that - his love for dueling hardly prevents telekinetic usage. Sure, he has physical prowess, but he isn't stupid enough to not resort to TK when his dueling might be insufficient, which is what you proposed.

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: No, it isn't. Koon has held his own against Ventress while injured and Fisto has beaten Grievous

That's ridiculous. They are better, yes, but only a little bit. Grievous is nerfed in the series where Fisto beat Grievous.

Not sure how killing singular, regular fodder people who can't use the Force to defend themselves translates to being vastly better than collapsing a cave.

Not sure why you thought so. I said combined.

It not only allows him to hold them off but also potentially penetrate their defenses, since they simply can't fight him as they would anybody around their speed level.

lolwut

Speed alone does not allow him to outfight them. He gains an advantage, and yes, it could prove fatal for Bane or Zannah if he fought them one on one... but against two? No. He will not be able to fight both at once and outfight them.

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#46  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@shootingnova: See and you didn't think this would prompt much of a discussion. And now look at it.

That said though I think our mutual friend here is a bit of a lost cause. He's just not accepting anything you're telling him.

But yes, Tenebrous wins all three rounds handily.

On the subject of the SW novels I actually think Plagueis is pretty well covered by his one novel. I don't think there's that much more that can be said about him. Tenebrous and his master on the other hand, have potential. I wouldn't mind something on King Adas and other ancient Pre-Exar Kun Sith Lords either.

Whereas I myself would honestly prefer it if Luceno or Stover retconned the Revan novel and did their own attempt at it. Not going to happen of course but I can dream right?

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#47  Edited By ShootingNova
@intrepid37 said:

That's ridiculous. They are better, yes, but only a little bit. Grievous is nerfed in the series where Fisto beat Grievous.

No, it isn't. For one, you failed to address an injured Koon contending with Ventress, whom is frankly a superior duelist than either Bane or Zannah. For that matter, the only people Zannah or Bane have ever defeated were featless beings - Sirak was just glorified fodder and Set Harth was featless all the same. I take defeating Grievous or even just contending with several Magnaguards over Sirak any day.

Not sure why you thought so. I said combined.

Yes, I know. What exactly has Zannah and Bane accomplished that puts them "vastly" above Koon, as you put it? That, and you're not even factoring Fisto's TK.

Speed alone does not allow him to outfight them. He gains an advantage, and yes, it could prove fatal for Bane or Zannah if he fought them one on one... but against two? No. He will not be able to fight both at once and outfight them.

Nobody insinuated speed alone would decide a duel - I said it played a large part (which it does) - and likely more than you were willing to believe. For that matter, he wouldn't even have to worry about Zannah launching any offensive since she relies on defenses and using attacks when an opponent is drained - and considering how Tenebrous has fought hundreds of opponents before I don't think he would be easily exhausted. While Zannah can launch a counteroffensive, she relies on her opponent's fatigue and misplay. Against any competent opponent, she can't even launch a proper offensive - she couldn't even land a blow on an unarmed Bane. I have no reason to suggest her offensive abilities would be of much use.

Beyond that - Bane's supposed dozen blades is hardly top tier. It has to be some form of hyperbole as it simply contradicts being top tier. For one, if he was really that fast, I have no idea how those assassins or even Hetton could contend with him - and he should have blitzed Zannah, or at least instantaneously or near-instanteously overwhelm her by sheer speed, which he didn't do.

When he was dueling the Jedi later, the maximum number of blades he ever had to contend with was four, and he supposedly appeared to be wielding twelve to people of that caliber (Zannah). Yet somehow he was struggling to defend just his head against those four blades, since the rest of his body was shielded by Orbalisks. For that matter, his defenses got penetrated anyways and he was struck on the arm. If Bane really would have appeared to wield a dozen blades to somebody of that caliber and not simply some regular human, I don't see how he would be struggling to hard against only four blades. You could make a case for Battle meditation - but that only manipulates the fight slightly. And he was not holding back in any of those encounters. The Orbalisks prevent him from doing so, which is another loss for his tactical ability.

But honestly - what were the team's advantages over Tenebrous, again? Strength, which is ambiguous and only Bane can hope to possess such an advantage. I believe Tenebrous's strength (or rather, overall physicality) was compared to Plagueis, but whatever. Assuming Bane is stronger, I'm not sure how he could actually connect a proper blow. Their other supposed advantage which is also very ambiguous, is dueling. The issue I have is that Bane and Zannah have only defeated fodder before, so I honestly can't tell. And as I said above, form mastery/proficiency and exotic weapon mastery/proficiency goes to Tenebrous.

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See and you didn't think this would prompt much of a discussion. And now look at it.

There shouldn't have been this much discussion. I honestly don't see how Tenebrous is simply not faster than them.

That said though I think our mutual friend here is a bit of a lost cause. He's just not accepting anything you're telling him.

He's accepting some of it, but like me he's extremely adamant about his position. When there's two people that aren't willing to concede their points they will never find common ground.


But yes, Tenebrous wins all three rounds handily.

Yes, he does.

On the subject of the SW novels I actually think Plagueis is pretty well covered by his one novel. I don't think there's that much more that can be said about him. Tenebrous and his master on the other hand, have potential. I wouldn't mind something on King Adas and other ancient Pre-Exar Kun Sith Lords either.

Plagueis has a lot more potential. We can learn more about his studies on midi-chlorians and Tenebrous's maxi-chlorians. That's kind of why I wanted a novel like Darth Plagueis but on Plagueis and Tenebrous, rather than Plagueis and Sidious - because they have potential, are good characters and I'd personally like to have more feats for them.

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@shootingnova: No, it isn't. For one, you failed to address an injured Koon contending with Ventress, whom is frankly a superior duelist than either Bane or Zannah. For that matter, the only people Zannah or Bane have ever defeated were featless beings - Sirak was just glorified fodder and Set Harth was featless all the same. I take defeating Grievous or even just contending with several Magnaguards over Sirak any day.

Actually, I didn't feel the need to address what you're pointing out ad nauseam. Contending with Koon is a good feat. Better than what Bane and Zannah has accomplished? Sure. Good enough to be ''much better'' duelists? Not at all.

Yes, I know.

Apparantly not.

What exactly has Zannah and Bane accomplished that puts them "vastly" above Koon, as you put it? That, and you're not even factoring Fisto's TK.

Bane's TK wave pulverized the organs in several guards while drugged (IIRC). This at least rivals Koon's feat. With Zannah, the team is far more powerful. And Fisto's TK is almost useless as well. If Bane successfully attacks him with TK, Fisto would be hard pressed to deal with it.

For that matter, he wouldn't even have to worry about Zannah launching any offensive since she relies on defenses and using attacks when an opponent is drained - and considering how Tenebrous has fought hundreds of opponents before I don't think he would be easily exhausted. While Zannah can launch a counteroffensive, she relies on her opponent's fatigue and misplay. Against any competent opponent, she can't even launch a proper offensive - she couldn't even land a blow on an unarmed Bane. I have no reason to suggest her offensive abilities would be of much use.

If your suggestion is that Tenebrous fights Bane, then Zannah can simply gather energy to attack him with TP.

Beyond that - Bane's supposed dozen blades is hardly top tier. It has to be some form of hyperbole as it simply contradicts being top tier. For one, if he was really that fast, I have no idea how those assassins or even Hetton could contend with him - and he should have blitzed Zannah, or at least instantaneously or near-instanteously overwhelm her by sheer speed, which he didn't do.

Actually, he nearled blitzed Rastka Lsu whose powes were enhanced while his own were diminished, IIRC.

You could make a case for Battle meditation - but that only manipulates the fight slightly.

I honestly have no idea why you're trying to pass your opinion off as a fact that it only changes the fight slightly. The Jedi were strengthened and Bane weakened. Also, he appeared to wield a dozen lightsabers from the narrator's point of view, not Zannah's, otherwise she would've gotten blitzed.

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#50  Edited By ShootingNova
@intrepid37 said:

Actually, I didn't feel the need to address what you're pointing out ad nauseam. Contending with Koon is a good feat. Better than what Bane and Zannah has accomplished? Sure. Good enough to be ''much better'' duelists? Not at all.

I'm not addressing anything ad nauseam. Again - show me whom Bane/Zannah have ever defeated aside from glorified fodder? Especially in Round 1 where its PoD Bane, so his dueling with the Jedi is not a viable option since it occurs ten years later with an amp. I'm also assuming the phrase "contending with Koon" was a typo.

And it depends on what you define as "much". I tend to be a bit reaching when I refer to that term, but honestly neither Bane nor Zannah can even win 1/10 against Fisto and Koon by virtue of dueling alone.

Apparantly not.

That's a wonderfully thought-provoking counterargument.

Bane's TK wave pulverized the organs in several guards while drugged (IIRC). This at least rivals Koon's feat. With Zannah, the team is far more powerful. And Fisto's TK is almost useless as well. If Bane successfully attacks him with TK, Fisto would be hard pressed to deal with it.

For one, that feat is from DoE, ten years after these scenarios where Bane is in his prime. He spent a decade studying the dark side. What has he done excluding DoE - up to PoD for the first one and up to RoT in the others. Regarding Fisto's TK - it's around Zannah's level at the least.
Mind you - your argument appears to hang on Tenebrous not being able to beat Fisto or Koon. Not sure why it would be relevant when they would beat Bane and Zannah.

If your suggestion is that Tenebrous fights Bane, then Zannah can simply gather energy to attack him with TP.

No, it isn't. As far as we know, Tenebrous knew a lot about Bane and likely Zannah (he does refer to Sorcery at a point) - so he would know that Zannah was a sorceress and Bane was a physical player and know how to deal with the issue. Again, he has tactical advantage, as well as pre-knowledge of his opponents, something they don't have.

Actually, he nearled blitzed Rastka Lsu whose powes were enhanced while his own were diminished, IIRC.

Funny. Because Raksta was dueling him perfectly fine. And no, he never "nearly blitzed" Raskta - she landed a bunch of blows on him but they did nothing because of his armor - and then she barely dived out of the way and it was stated to be only because of the Battle Meditation. That said - she landed half a dozen strikes on him already, so if your definition of "nearly speedblitzing" is tanking half a dozen strikes and then nearly killing an exposed and surprised opponent - I don't think so.

And you still failed to address how regular fodder assassins were fighting Bane perfectly fine. No speedblitz - and he wasn't holding back. Hetton dodged his Lightning too.

I honestly have no idea why you're trying to pass your opinion off as a fact that it only changes the fight slightly. The Jedi were strengthened and Bane weakened. Also, he appeared to wield a dozen lightsabers from the narrator's point of view, not Zannah's, otherwise she would've gotten blitzed.

It might just be lack of clarity - but what I was referring to what that Bane was depowered by a slight amount, and the Jedi increased by a slight amount only. That was referenced in the novel, I believe.

And by "the narrator", this would likely be a reference to some regular human? Because if it was then that isn't impressive at all. Somebody like Dooku or Vader has fought invisibly fast and generated about 6-8 afterimages, and they are significantly slower than Tenebrous. For that matter, Plagueis and Venamis have generated afterimages that left residual streams of light in multiple parts of the forest at once, giving the impression of lightning streaking through the understory, a feat which surpasses Bane's. Again - this is them fighting in an unfriendly environment, whereas in a neutral ground Plagueis still had trouble keeping up with Tenebrous. So yes, Tenebrous is indeed quite a bit faster.