Ahsoka Tano (Rebels) vs Darth Traya

I back Ahsoka

Traya.

Tryhard wins

Traya easily. Anyone saying Ashoka is wrong. This is like putting arcann (traya) up against Barris Ofee (Ashoka). Traya wins every single time.

Traya, her unique telekinesis alone would throw ahsoka for a loop.

Ahsoka Tano should win this pretty easily.

Malachor - The Nexus

I think people are vastly underrating just what Ahsoka had to go through on Malachor. It was explicitly stated that Malachor is a very strong Dark Side nexus, if the active Sith Temple and the vast wasteland of bodies was not indication enough.

Malachor - The Marathon

On this Dark Side nexus, Ahsoka had to run the Dark Side Guantlet - within the span of hours, she contended with every active Dark Sider in the galaxy - all of whom were amped by Malachor’s nexus (besides Darth Sidious, but he was in meditation anyways). Yet Ahsoka managed to survive all of it, never mind the fact that the Nexus would drain her strength every second she was on Malachor.

By the time Ahsoka confronted Darth Vader, she already had faced all three Inquisitors on the planet and Maul - and proven superior to all of them. Yes, including Maul, given her confidence in Kanan’s ability to defeat him.

Duel with Darth Vader

Probably the first thing that should be mentioned is that the two fought at the epicenter of an extremely powerful Dark Nexus. A Sith Temple that was capable of scorching entire battlefields filled with trained Jedi and Sith, to be exact. No matter how you cut it, Darth Vader was amped considerably, and Ahsoka was considerably weakened. And though Darth Vader may have been holding back offensively, his commitment in killing Ahsoka would not affect his defense. A defense Ahsoka broke telekinetically by shoving the Sith Lord back several meters, even though he had braced himself for the push.

This is the same Sith Lord who 13 years ago, during the events of Lords of the Sith, proved capable to reducing dozens of creatures resistant to blaster-fire to splotches of blood and gore in a single Force Wave. That is the order of raw Force Power we are discussing when discussing Darth Vader.

Now, when Ahsoka attempted to redeem Darth Vader, her words had the exact opposite effect, and Darth Vader succumbed to his rage. Whether it was the memories Ashoka stirred up or an effect of the Dark Nexus, who knows. But we do know that Darth Vader viciously attacked Ahsoka with the attempt to kill her. And we do know that Darth Vader’s rage was so intense that his yellow eyes turned borderline-red. And yet, with a second Force Push, Ahsoka is able to halt an enraged Darth Vader’s momentum long enough to burn a hole in the floor (a move which ironically, and was most likely intended to, save her murderous former master from the Temple’s imminent explosion).

Encounter with Darth Sidious

Ezra pulled Ahsoka from Malachor right at this moment! Now, for Ezra (and by extension, us), it had been one-and-a-half years since we had seen Ahsoka. But it is very important to remember that the confrontation with Darth Sidious in the World Between Worlds was right after Ahsoka’s duel with Darth Vader from her standpoint.

And thus came the cherry on the top to Ahsoka’s Malachor Marathon. An absolutely exhausted Ahsoka managed to deflect Force Fire from Darth Sidious. While the Dark Lord of the Sith couldn’t fully manifest his power in the World Between Worlds, he still displayed considerable power even from his vantage point. Add to the fact that Ahsoka was absolutely exhausted from having to deal with a rage imbued offensive from Darth Vader, and we see that:

1. Ahsokaa has insane endurance

2. Ahsoka has even more insane raw power in the Force

3. Ahsoka can deal with very esoteric and obscure Force Powers.

Conclusion

With all of this, I fail to see what Darth Traya could bring to the table. Mind you, I just finished a play through of KOTOR II with Restored Content Mod. And while I have high respect for Darth Traya’s powers and prowess, there is absolutely nothing that suggests to me should could hold her own against Darth Vader - never mind in a situation where Darth Vader is incredibly amped, and Traya is incredibly weakened.

For anyone saying that Darth Traya could simply outmaneuver Ahsoka with esoteric abilities, considering how Ahsoka managed to fend off Force Fire when absolutely exhausted, I really don’t think that Darth Traya has what it takes to bring Ahsoka down.

Never mind the fact that the Jedi Exile, who was clearly inferior to Darth Traya in the Force - given that she managed to hide her true nature from the Exile whilst simultaneously being able to attune the Exile’s Crystal to any changes in the Exile’s personality - was able to overwhelm Darth Traya in what can only be presumed to be superiority in lightsaber combat. And don’t even try to say that The Jedi Exile > Ahsoka Tano.

@zacharyhampton:

I think people are vastly underrating just what Ahsoka had to go through on Malachor. It was explicitly stated that Malachor is a very strong Dark Side nexus, if the active Sith Temple and the vast wasteland of bodies was not indication enough.

Where has it been stated in Canon that Malachor is a very strong Dark Side nexus?

On this Dark Side nexus, Ahsoka had to run the Dark Side Guantlet - within the span of hours, she contended with every active Dark Sider in the galaxy - all of whom were amped by Malachor’s nexus (besides Darth Sidious, but he was in meditation anyways). Yet Ahsoka managed to survive all of it, never mind the fact that the Nexus would drain her strength every second she was on Malachor

Where was it stated she faced every Dark Sider in the galaxy? There are other Inquisitors out there, you know.

And where was it stated that Malachor amps dark siders and saps the strength of light siders in Canon?

By the time Ahsoka confronted Darth Vader, she already had faced all three Inquisitors on the planet and Maul - and proven superior to all of them. Yes, including Maul, given her confidence in Kanan’s ability to defeat him.

She never proved superior to Maul and performed worse than he did against the Inquisitors.

Also, how does her having confidence in Kanan's ability to defeat Maul (which is obvious PIS how he did but anyway) somehow prove that she is Maul's superior?

Duel with Darth Vader

That whole section can be summed up with what I've already said: where has it been stated in Canon that Malachor is a powerful dark side nexus that incredibly amps dark siders and incredibly weakens light siders?

With all of this, I fail to see what Darth Traya could bring to the table. Mind you, I just finished a play through of KOTOR II with Restored Content Mod. And while I have high respect for Darth Traya’s powers and prowess, there is absolutely nothing that suggests to me should could hold her own against Darth Vader - never mind in a situation where Darth Vader is incredibly amped, and Traya is incredibly weakened.

If they were fighting on Malachor from Legends, both of them would be amped, and it has never been stated in Canon that Malachor is a nexus that amps/weakens people.

For anyone saying that Darth Traya could simply outmaneuver Ahsoka with esoteric abilities, considering how Ahsoka managed to fend off Force Fire when absolutely exhausted, I really don’t think that Darth Traya has what it takes to bring Ahsoka down.

How does fending off Force Fire help her to counter Traya's Force Drain?

Never mind the fact that the Jedi Exile, who was clearly inferior to Darth Traya in the Force - given that she managed to hide her true nature from the Exile whilst simultaneously being able to attune the Exile’s Crystal to any changes in the Exile’s personality - was able to overwhelm Darth Traya in what can only be presumed to be superiority in lightsaber combat. And don’t even try to say that The Jedi Exile > Ahsoka Tano.

You do know everything you listed that makes Ahsoka fighting on Malachor impressive - it hinders light siders abilities every second they're on it, it amps all dark siders, etc. - is exactly what Meetra did, right? She fought Storm Beasts, Sith Assassins, Warriors, and Lords described as a "legion of elite Sith", repeatedly defeated Darth Sion, and then went on to defeat Traya, all on Malachor, which, in Legends, has statements like this:

I've yet to see these quotes used to describe Canon's Malachor, which I think you're doing by combining both of the two, Canon and Legends.

And why wouldn't the Exile be > Ahsoka? Does Ahsoka have these accolades and statements, let alone all of Meetra's other feats? All pulled from @shootingnova's Respect Thread for her.

Mandalore compares the Exile's combative prowess to Revan's, claiming that even the greatest Mandalorian warriors, with all their martial training, are no match for her:

"I thought that Revan was a singular Jedi, but now there's you. With all our martial training, battles and ethics, even our greatest warriors are no match for you."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

The Exile has Echani training (which includes Echani fighting arts and Battle Precognition), has martial arts proficiency, and is proficient in a number of weapons such as lightsabers, pistols, rifles and other simple weapons:

The Exile possesses mastery of all the lightsaber forms. Kreia teaches Meetra the Shii-Cho, Makashi and Soresu lightsaber forms, whilst the remaining four are taught by the Jedi Masters Vrook, Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell:

Shii-Cho is a simple, basic lightsaber technique taught to other Jedi, and is a solid fallback choice:

"It is simple, and it's simplicity is strength. It allows focus, a slightly improved chance of connecting with one's opponent. It has no other advantages or disadvantages - it is an effective form to fall back on when no other form will do."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Makashi is a form designed to counter Shii-Cho, specializing in dueling other lightsaber-wielding Force-users, but being poor against blasters:

"Ah - a technique that helps one resist the Force attacks of an enemy, and is also excellent for lightsaber combat. It does more damage, but it leaves you vulnerable to other attacks. Use it against others wielding the Force or lightsabers... but not against anyone else."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Soresu is a defensive form useful against many opponents, especially those with blasters. Soresu can turn somebody's blaster offense against them, but lacks its own offensive power:

"A… defensive technique. But effective. Use it if you do not wish to be hit, or if you are facing many opponents with blasters. With a lightsaber blade and enough skill in deflection, it is an excellent offense against blasters, but in other situations, it merely delays the inevitable."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Ataru is an aggressive dueling form against single opponents, faring poorly against blasters and multiple enemies:

"This is Ataru, an aggressive lightsaber form which is best suited against a single opponent. Take care when you face multiple adversaries, and be sure to close the distance between ranged attackers quickly, as your ability to deflect blaster fire will be diminished."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"Ataru is the name given to the movements of this form - though it is aggressive, it is focused, and its best use is in combat against a single opponent."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Whether in friendship or in battle, you learn the lightsaber stance Ataru after meeting with Zez-Kai Ell. This stance is perfect for one-on-one battles, like the duel you just survived.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

"This form is Ataru. Because it is such an aggressive fighting style, you should only use it against single opponents. And don't try using this form amidst heavy fire. Nothing is more embarrassing for a Jedi than to be cut down by a stray blaster shot."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Shien is a more offensive variant of Soresu, excelling in deflecting blaster fire and protecting against strikes from multiple assailants without compromise to offensive power:

"You will doubtless encounter many situations with multiple assailants. To better protect yourself against enemy fire without compromising your offensive capabilities, use the Shien form."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Whether you ally with Jedi Master Vrook or fight him, you learn a new lightsaber form, Shion, during your encounter. This form improves your defense and makes critical strikes more potent.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

"This Shien form should prove appropriate - its best use is when you are outnumbered, which I fear suits your... our predicament perfectly. You will find it easier to deflect blaster fire with this form - and it shall also guard you against critical strikes by your opponents."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Niman is a balanced form with no specific strengths or weaknesses:

"For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Juyo is an extremely ferocious lightsaber form which can devastate lone opponents, but leaves one vulnerable to Force attack:

"There are times when you want to overwhelm a particular opponent quickly. For these situations, use the Juyo form. Do not get carried away using this form, particularly against Dark Jedi. The ferocity required to use this form leaves one vulnerable to enemy Force powers."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"I hesitate to teach this to you, because of your demonstrated recklessness... This is Juyo, a very ferocious form of lightsaber offense. It goes without saying to exercise proper control and restraint when using this technique. It may allow you to eviscerate a lone enemy, but it will leave you open to attack by Force powers."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Only the most skilled of Force wielders and high-level masters of multiple lightsaber forms can learn Juyo:

Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.

Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber

"Perhaps one of the greatest styles, learned only by the most skilled of Force wielders."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

The Exile quickly learns these forms merely by watching the Masters perform the techniques and briefly practicing them:

"Excellent! I'm impressed with how quickly you've mastered this form. I always knew you were gifted."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

The Exile may have been one of the greatest dueling masters that the galaxy has ever seen:

Some of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen fought in the Form II style.

Source: Star Wars Adventures Magazine #3

Under Kreia's tutelage, the Exile learns many forms but also to not rely on any one of them. Her ability to switch between all the styles makes the Exile one of the most skilled Jedi in history:

"The Jedi practice many forms, many styles of lightsaber combat. It is good to know them, but not to rely on them."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

There are seven main forms of lightsaber combat. Every Jedi has a favourite, but the most skilled can switch between all the styles depending on the situation.

Source: Mysteries of the Jedi

@thevivas:

Where has it been stated in Canon that Malachor is a very strong Dark Side nexus?

Well, you mean besides the fact that there is a massive Sith Temple, which doubles as the super weapon responsible for all of the vast wastelands? Well, Darth Maul (2017): Issue 2 makes it extremely clear that there is a highly corruptive taint within even each of the bodies. Furthermore, Darth Maul saw the planet often in his dreams, even before Darth Sidious took him there.

If this is not enough to confirm Malachor as a potent Dark Nexus, we get this factoid from the Twilight of the Apprentice Trivia Gallery on StarWars.com

And if that is not enough, this is what the Databank entry for Malachor on StarWars.com has to say.

As for the energies of the Sith Temple itself? This exchange from the Star Wars: The Clone Wars story reel “The Big Bang” (fourth episode in the Crystal Crises of Utapau arc) between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the rest of the Jedi Council explains just how powerful giant kyber crystals are - and what they are used for.

And just before you say something like, “But it is not confirmed that the Malachor Temple used a kyber crystal,” actually, it is.

To claim that Malachor was not strong in the Dark Side is just grasping at straws, and blatantly false. Looks like you’ll need a new argument.

Where was it stated she faced every Dark Sider in the galaxy? There are other Inquisitors out there, you know.

As for the Inquisitorius, Dave Filoni was quite clear in a Rebels Recon that the reason we never saw a an Inquisitor after Malachor was that there were none left. So as to go along with this statement Tarkin makes to Darth Vader onboard the Death Star.

The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You my friend are all that’s left of their religion.

Thus, like I said. Ahsoka did indeed face every Dark Sider in the galaxy. The Inquisitorius was finished - hence why they did not appear again. Or do you think that an Inquisitor has something better to do rather than hunt and pursue two very non-secret Jedi.

Also, how does her having confidence in Kanan's ability to defeat Maul (which is obvious PIS how he did but anyway) somehow prove that she is Maul's superior?

Simple logic. She wouldn’t have left Maul to face Kanan if Maul was actually equal or superior to her in power - even on Malachor. And on what grounds do you say it is PIS? Underestimating his opponents, and overestimating his own abilities, is an extremely common trend with Darth Maul. Heck, its what got him killed in the end.

You do know everything you listed that makes Ahsoka fighting on Malachor impressive - it hinders light siders abilities every second they're on it, it amps all dark siders, etc. - is exactly what Meetra did, right? She fought Storm Beasts, Sith Assassins, Warriors, and Lords described as a "legion of elite Sith", repeatedly defeated Darth Sion, and then went on to defeat Traya, all on Malachor, which, in Legends, has statements like this:

Wait a second. Are we debating Darth Traya or the Jedi Exile? Because even if you did manage to prove The Jedi Exile’s superiority to Ahsoka (which you cannot), that still wouldn’t prove Traya’s ability to defeat Ahsoka. However, since you have been so kind as to draw in the Jedi Exile...

The only impressive opponent the Jedi Exile ever had was Darth Traya - the Sith we happen to be debating.

After the Jedi Exile’s confrontation with the Sith Assassins on Peragus, the Exile remarked that they were weak. Kreia responded by explaining that Sith Assassins feed on the Force strength of their prey - something repeatedly confirmed by the Jedi Masters - and thus, they were weak against the Exile. Because they couldn’t feed off of the Exile’s strength.

Most of the non-assassins that the Jedi Exile confronted on Malachor were mere apprentices - there were only a couple Sith Lords and Marauders. And even they are mere remnants of the Sith that Revan faced on the Star Forge.

As for Darth Sion? Killing him is not an impressive feat. Since, as you have assumed that the Jedi Exile learned all seven lightsaber styles, Restored Content Mod is clearly fair game. Let’s remember that Atton Rand killed Darth Sion too. Now, Atton is clearly protrayed as the Jedi Exile’s most powerful apprentice, but still. Atton had what, a couple months of training?

Besides, whatever way you cut it, Darth Sion is clearly below the likes of Uthar Wynn - and even Yuthara Ban, seeing as she was the heir apparent of the academy - as of the events of KOTOR. And I doubt Sion’s lightsaber skills improved much in the five years of interim with his hit and run tactics. This is further enunciated by the fact that the Jedi Exile was able kill Darth Sion once on Korriban (a place Traya noted that Sion was augmented) whilst failing to pass the Level 16 Sith Student test.

Thus, I am neither overly impressed by Darth Traya’s domination of Darth Sion, or The Jedi Exile defeating him in lightsaber combat.

And why wouldn't the Exile be > Ahsoka? Does Ahsoka have these accolades and statements, let alone all of Meetra's other feats? All pulled from @shootingnova's Respect Thread for her.

Accolades and resumes can look very fancy. But did you know the Grand Inquisitor was skilled in all seven styles of lightsaber combat, as per Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know? Didn’t help him against Kanan Jarrus, now did it?

All that is provable about the Jedi Exile’s lightsaber combat skills is that the Exile is a better saber duelist than any of the Jedi Masters, and can take any two of them together in combat. However, it also should be noted that these Jedi Masters were out of practice - with all of their hiding.

Also, whatever skill the Jedi Exile had enough of an edge in combative skill that the Exile managed to overcome the clear advantage in power that Darth Traya had - despite Traya not holding back.

Well, I must say, this respect thread is exceedingly generous to the Exile. Yes, it does take skill to be able to switch between lightsaber styles. However, this is a skill that was expected of all Jedi Knights of The Jedi Exile’s era by the time they completed their training - the ability to switch between Shii-Cho, Makashi, and Soresu. Not to mention the Jedi Exile’s own apprentices are all capable of this. So I guess all of the Jedi of the Jedi Exile’s era - including her own apprentices prior to the completion of their training - get the “may have been one of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen” description?

Though again, I will say, attempting to prove the Jedi Exile as Ahsoka’s superior proves nothing about Darth Traya’s superiority, given that Darth Traya went all out on her apprentice.

How does fending off Force Fire help her to counter Traya's Force Drain?

It shows that Ahsoka has confronted esoteric Force Abilities before, and has a greater knowledge of the Force than almost all Jedi of her era. I mean, have you seen Force Fire before? However, the idea of draining life from a being is seen a fair amount of times amongst Dark Siders.

And even if Ashoka cannot resist it, Darth Traya still has to dominate Ahsoka first, which brings us to the final point.

Final Point

Here’s the thing. Even if I dropped the idea of the clearly potent Dark Side nexus on Malachor - we still have the fact that Ahsoka managed to shove Darth Vader back several meters even whilst he actively resisted and grounded himself in the Force. This is the same Darth Vader that has reduced hordes of blaster-repellant creatures to bits of blood and gore with a single Force Wave in Lords of the Sith - which takes place five years into his career as a Sith Lord. Given that the Duel on Malachor occurred in 2 BBY - I think its safe to say that Darth Vader’s telekinesis would be even more powerful with eleven years having passed.

No where, and I do mean no where, has Darth Traya shown raw power that could even begin to be compared to Darth Vader. Much less demonstrated comparable telekinesis to a Darth Vader tier opponent in an instance where she would be hampered, and her opponent strengthened (like the very clear nexus Ashoka was facing).

Also, since you were so kind as to bring in the Jedi Exile, it has been proven that Darth Traya can be brought down by an opponent whom she wields superior power to if said opponent has superior skill. And while the Jedi Exile clearly possessed a broad base of knowledge, there is nothing that suggests that the Jedi Exile’s dueling skills are in any way comparable to the elites of the Rise of the Galactic Empire era. Almost all of the Dark Siders the Jedi Exile faced fought more cheaply than the Disciples of Ragnos, and floundered without their one-dimensional Force Drain abilities.

@zacharyhampton:

Well, you mean besides the fact that there is a massive Sith Temple, which doubles as the super weapon responsible for all of the vast wastelands?

Yes, actually, because simply having a Sith Temple doesn't mean it's a dark side nexus, and not the same kind that existed in Legends.

Well, Darth Maul (2017): Issue 2 makes it extremely clear that there is a highly corruptive taint within even each of the bodies. Furthermore, Darth Maul saw the planet often in his dreams, even before Darth Sidious took him there.

That still does nothing to confirm that all of the old quotes about Malachor in Legends are still true for canon. Having a taint in some dead bodies is extremely different the sensations and feelings from Malachor that I posted in the first reply.

If this is not enough to confirm Malachor as a potent Dark Nexus, we get this factoid from the Twilight of the Apprentice Trivia Gallery on StarWars.com

That's not enough to draw the conclusion that Canon Malachor = Legends Malachor.

As for the energies of the Sith Temple itself? This exchange from the Star Wars: The Clone Wars story reel “The Big Bang” (fourth episode in the Crystal Crises of Utapau arc) between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the rest of the Jedi Council explains just how powerful giant kyber crystals are - and what they are used for.

This has nothing to do with proving Malachor is a dark side nexus, not a powerful one, nor that it does anything of what you claimed it did.

To claim that Malachor was not strong in the Dark Side is just grasping at straws, and blatantly false. Looks like you’ll need a new argument.

You made the claim and have yet to prove any of what you said, such as "the Nexus would drain her strength every second she was on Malachor", "epicenter of an extremely powerful Dark Nexus", and "Darth Vader was amped considerably, and Ahsoka was considerably weakened".

You've provided nothing of what I asked, which was statements of Malachor being a dark side nexus or statements of it amping dark siders and hampering light siders. All you've done is tell me there's a Sith Temple on it, there's a "taint" in dead bodies, Maul saw the planet in his dreams, and that the energies of the Temple come from a kyber crystal. None of that proves that Malachor is a powerful dark side nexus.

I'm not the one who's grasping at straws and needs a new argument when you have yet to provide any evidence supporting yours.

As for the Inquisitorius, Dave Filoni was quite clear in a Rebels Recon that the reason we never saw a an Inquisitor after Malachor was that there were none left. So as to go along with this statement Tarkin makes to Darth Vader onboard the Death Star

Which Rebels Recon was this? Link?

And regardless of what Filoni said, claiming Ahsoka "contended with every active Dark Sider in the galaxy" and calling it the "Dark Side Gauntlet" is incredibly less impressive once you realize Ahsoka only fought the Inquisitors all at once with the help of Kanan, had plenty of rest afterwards before she fought Maul for a small bit off-screen, and then she fought Vader and the shenanigans with Palpatine. She wasn't fighting them back-to-back like a real gauntlet, she wasn't fighting them without rest like what is seen in a real gauntlet, and she had help in the one fight where there was more than one opponent.

Simple logic. She wouldn’t have left Maul to face Kanan if Maul was actually equal or superior to her in power - even on Malachor. And on what grounds do you say it is PIS? Underestimating his opponents, and overestimating his own abilities, is an extremely common trend with Darth Maul. Heck, its what got him killed in the end.

It's not "simple logic". Maul is better than Kanan in every category and didn't underestimate him at all, it was just bad writing. Kanan having the strength to not only catch Maul's punch but have the strength to throw him hard enough to fall off the edge of the level they were on is bad writing. Nowhere in their little skirmish did Maul underestimate Kanan or overestimate himself, since we clearly see him sizing up and preparing his attack.

Wait a second. Are we debating Darth Traya or the Jedi Exile? Because even if you did manage to prove The Jedi Exile’s superiority to Ahsoka (which you cannot)

You brought up the Exile in an attempt to lowball Traya, and yes I can clearly prove Meetra's superiority to Ahsoka. The little snippet of quotes I already provided do such.

that still wouldn’t prove Traya’s ability to defeat Ahsoka. However, since you have been so kind as to draw in the Jedi Exile...

You're the one who brought up the Exile, not me. Do you seriously not remember?

The only impressive opponent the Jedi Exile ever had was Darth Traya

How you can say you just finished a play through of Kotor II and still say this with such confidence is astounding.

After the Jedi Exile’s confrontation with the Sith Assassins on Peragus, the Exile remarked that they were weak. Kreia responded by explaining that Sith Assassins feed on the Force strength of their prey - something repeatedly confirmed by the Jedi Masters - and thus, they were weak against the Exile. Because they couldn’t feed off of the Exile’s strength.

Irrelevant since the Exile fought through a legion of them on Malachor.

Most of the non-assassins that the Jedi Exile confronted on Malachor were mere apprentices - there were only a couple Sith Lords and Marauders. And even they are mere remnants of the Sith that Revan faced on the Star Forge.

I'm starting to see a downplay trend with you. That's not a good sign.

The numbers of the Sith she fought through were described as "a legion", "teeming", and "thronged". The Dark Side Gauntlet Meetra ran through is more impressive than the one Ahsoka went through, hands down:

Those Sith also have accolades of their own:

Clearly more impressive than "the mere remnants" that you think they are.

Since, as you have assumed that the Jedi Exile learned all seven lightsaber styles, Restored Content Mod is clearly fair game.

This comment makes no sense. I'm assuming Meetra learned all seven lightsaber forms because she does so in the game.

Let’s remember that Atton Rand killed Darth Sion too. Now, Atton is clearly protrayed as the Jedi Exile’s most powerful apprentice, but still. Atton had what, a couple months of training?

I'm not discussing the Restored Content Mod.

Thus, I am neither overly impressed by Darth Traya’s domination of Darth Sion, or The Jedi Exile defeating him in lightsaber combat.

I'm not going to comment on the rest because of this comment. I don't care what you're impressed by. The feats and the accolades for Sion are here since I'm not going to spend any more time on another tangent trying to prove Sion's skills.

Accolades and resumes can look very fancy. But did you know the Grand Inquisitor was skilled in all seven styles of lightsaber combat, as per Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know? Didn’t help him against Kanan Jarrus, now did it?

It clearly did, seeing as how he only lost to him in their final fight and that he's more skilled than all of the other Inquisitors.

All that is provable about the Jedi Exile’s lightsaber combat skills is that the Exile is a better saber duelist than any of the Jedi Masters, and can take any two of them together in combat. However, it also should be noted that these Jedi Masters were out of practice - with all of their hiding.

If that's all you think is provable about her skill, then I'm not sure I want to continue this conversation.

Well, I must say, this respect thread is exceedingly generous to the Exile.

What makes it exceedingly generous? The fact that it's simply stating all of her feats and accolades?

Yes, it does take skill to be able to switch between lightsaber styles. However, this is a skill that was expected of all Jedi Knights of The Jedi Exile’s era by the time they completed their training - the ability to switch between Shii-Cho, Makashi, and Soresu. Not to mention the Jedi Exile’s own apprentices are all capable of this. So I guess all of the Jedi of the Jedi Exile’s era - including her own apprentices prior to the completion of their training - get the “may have been one of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen” description?

That's both a terrible generalization and a lowball. Meetra clearly knows more than just the three styles you mentioned, and no, not every Jedi in that era gets the "may have been one of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen", just the ones who get that accolades are. And it just so happens that Meetra is one of them. Doesn't matter how you personally feel about the accolades. Oh, and for the cherry on top, Meetra is one of the most skilled Jedi in an era with these accolades for Jedi:

The many wars of the era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and force related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists capable of taking on Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime. They do battle with the evil Sith, and defend the galaxy against the Mandalorian hordes.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Even then, so what if all of the Jedi of the era had the accolade "may have been one of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen"? Do other characters having the same accolades suddenly make her's less impressive or for some reason not applicable? Do you know how many Jedi in the prequel era have the "one of the most skilled Jedi" accolade? Is that accolade now meaningless because more than one character has it?

It shows that Ahsoka has confronted esoteric Force Abilities before, and has a greater knowledge of the Force than almost all Jedi of her era. I mean, have you seen Force Fire before? However, the idea of draining life from a being is seen a fair amount of times amongst Dark Siders.

How will that "greater knowledge of the Force" help her to defeat Force Drain? You keep making statements without answering my questions or proving your own.

When in Canon have we seen Drain being used a "fair amount of times"?

Even if I dropped the idea of the clearly potent Dark Side nexus on Malachor

You already have since:

1) You haven't proven that Malachor is an actual nexus

and

2) You haven't proven that it does what you claimed it does, since Legends Malachor =/= Canon Malachor

we still have the fact that Ahsoka managed to shove Darth Vader back several meters even whilst he actively resisted and grounded himself in the Force. This is the same Darth Vader that has reduced hordes of blaster-repellant creatures to bits of blood and gore with a single Force Wave in Lords of the Sith - which takes place five years into his career as a Sith Lord. Given that the Duel on Malachor occurred in 2 BBY - I think its safe to say that Darth Vader’s telekinesis would be even more powerful with eleven years having passed.

From where I'm standing, it seems that you're claiming Ahsoka is Vader's equal or superior on Telekinetic power. Not only is that false, but simply breaking the defensive barrier of a Force user doesn't mean you're equal or stronger then them. Is Cere Junda now stronger than Darth Vader because she brought him to his knees whilst he "actively resisted and grounded himself in the Force"? Spoilers for Fallen Order btw:

There are several more examples from the game of that very thing, one Force user breaking the barrier of another not proving them stronger than the other. Other examples?

Kanan and Ezra are able to use the Force to push Darth Vader to the ground. Are they now stronger than Vader? Or Ahsoka, since all she could do was push him back?

I could bring even more examples, but I don't need to since I have two with Darth Vader himself proving that simply breaking his defenses doesn't mean you're comparable to his Telekinetic powers. So scaling Ahsoka to him and saying she can deal with Drain because of that is both faulty and inaccurate.

No where, and I do mean no where, has Darth Traya shown raw power that could even begin to be compared to Darth Vader. Much less demonstrated comparable telekinesis to a Darth Vader tier opponent in an instance where she would be hampered, and her opponent strengthened (like the very clear nexus Ashoka was facing).

She doesn't need to because she's not facing an opponent who compares to Darth Vader's power.

And harp on the nexus amping Vader and hindering Ahsoka all you want. You have not and will not be able to prove any of those claims.

And while the Jedi Exile clearly possessed a broad base of knowledge, there is nothing that suggests that the Jedi Exile’s dueling skills are in any way comparable to the elites of the Rise of the Galactic Empire era.

Her being one of the best in an era that has the Jedi in their prime moreso than the Prequel Era begs to differ.

Canonical accolades and statements > your opinion.

Almost all of the Dark Siders the Jedi Exile faced fought more cheaply than the Disciples of Ragnos, and floundered without their one-dimensional Force Drain abilities.

It's just sad how little you know at this point.

It's just sad how little you know at this point.

Oh, if you are going to be arrogant, then what I have to say is, “This is where the fun begins.”

Yes, actually, because simply having a Sith Temple doesn't mean it's a dark side nexus, and not the same kind that existed in Legends.

I have never tried to draw parity between “Canon” and “Legends.” You are the one who assumes that I do.

That's not enough to draw the conclusion that Canon Malachor = Legends Malachor.

I never said Canon Malachor = Legends Malachor. You are the one who attempts to put that in my mouth. In fact, you admit that you don’t even know if this is what I am trying to do here.

which I think you're doing by combining both of the two, Canon and Legends.

When you pull the arrogance card, be very sure of your own statements. Or you’ll just send me into more fits of laughter than I’ve already had after your...passionate...spiel.

You've provided nothing of what I asked, which was statements of Malachor being a dark side nexus or statements of it amping dark siders and hampering light siders.

Oh, but I did show that Malachor is a planet strong in the Dark Side. And TCW Season 6 Episode 13, “Sacrifice,” made it clear that light siders are hampered in places strong with the Dark Side.

All you've done is tell me there's a Sith Temple on it, there's a "taint" in dead bodies, Maul saw the planet in his dreams, and that the energies of the Temple come from a kyber crystal. None of that proves that Malachor is a powerful dark side nexus.

Remember this train of logic, because I’m going to use it to obliterate your “arguments” for The Jedi Exile (which was a lazy copy-paste of someone else’s work).

It's not "simple logic". Maul is better than Kanan in every category and didn't underestimate him at all, it was just bad writing. Kanan having the strength to not only catch Maul's punch but have the strength to throw him hard enough to fall off the edge of the level they were on is bad writing. Nowhere in their little skirmish did Maul underestimate Kanan or overestimate himself, since we clearly see him sizing up and preparing his attack.

Watch the fight again. I’m not even going to bother quoting Maul’s lines. But I will say this in response.

Canonical accolades and statements > your opinion

Onto the next point.

You brought up the Exile in an attempt to lowball Traya, and yes I can clearly prove Meetra's superiority to Ahsoka. The little snippet of quotes I already provided do such.

You mean the ”quotes” which are simply general descriptions? You realize that with the logic in those quotes, anyone who knows Form II would receive a “may have been one of the greatest dueling masters that the galaxy has ever seen?”

Irrelevant since the Exile fought through a legion of them on Malachor.

So now quantity > quality? Okay, Jaden Korr easily fought through more members of Tavian’s cult than the Jedi Exile fought Dark Siders. JA Jaden Korr > The Jedi Exile based on your logic.

And “legions” is the most vague description I have ever heard. Unless you seriously want to convince me that the Jedi Exile fought through 4,000 Sith?

What makes it exceedingly generous? The fact that it's simply stating all of her feats and accolades?

Are you trying to make me laugh? Most of those accolades aren’t even for the Jedi Exile specifically.

The feats and the accolades for Sion are here since I'm not going to spend any more time on another tangent trying to prove Sion's skills.

Sure, go ahead and ignore that an amped Darth Sion lost to someone who couldn’t failed Sith Student Level 16 trials. Just hand me some more vague designations that you didn’t compile.

If that's all you think is provable about her skill, then I'm not sure I want to continue this conversation.

Actually, I am being generous in that statement - by allowing you to assume The Jedi Exile was a Guardian/Weapons Master. The Jedi Exile’s class has never been confirmed, so in fact - all that we do know from an objective standpoint is that the Jedi Exile knew Form I, Form II, Form III, and Force Channel - because that was standard Jedi Training for the era. The others are ”on of the techniques [The Exile] has learned from the masters,” as per Kreia’s own words.

Meetra clearly knows more than just the three styles you mentioned,

Clearly? It is only clear if The Jedi Exile was a Weaponsmaster or a Watchman. The Exile could have become a Jedi Master for all you know. Better yet, you say

and no, not every Jedi in that era gets the "may have been one of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen", just the ones who get that accolades are.

Then, wait for it, you give me THIS to back up your statement...

The many wars of the era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and force related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists capable of taking on Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime. They do battle with the evil Sith, and defend the galaxy against the Mandalorian hordes.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

So, it would seem that the only quotes you can find are general accolades for the era. You have completely lost all credibility, considering how you actively disprove your own chain of logic.

”Now this is pod racing.”

Even then, so what if all of the Jedi of the era had the accolade "may have been one of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen"? Do other characters having the same accolades suddenly make her's less impressive or for some reason not applicable?

Okay. How about I give you Dave Filoni’s opinion on Ahsoka’s skills. Specific to Ahsoka’s skills.

That would put Ahsoka above both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Maul - both of whom we see engage in lightsaber combat during Rebels. And Freddie Prince Jr., who has stated that what he knows comes from Filoni.

And yes, Dark Siders are amped on Malachor, as per Henry Gilroy’s reponse as to how Inquisitor’s flew on Malachor

One last thing on the Jedi Exile. You say:

This comment makes no sense. I'm assuming Meetra learned all seven lightsaber forms because she does so in the game.

and

I'm not discussing the Restored Content Mod.

May I remind you that the Jedi Exile only comes across three Jedi Masters without RCM? Looks like your precious respect thread has gone up in smoke. I mean, you did play KOTOR II right? You do realize that to learn four lightsaber styles, a Weaponmaster or Watchman must come across four Jedi Masters.

And again, you are assuming that the Jedi Exile did not choose the Jedi Master path. On no basis.

You haven't proven that Malachor is an actual nexus

I have proved it far better than you have “proved” anything about the Jedi Exile.

Kanan and Ezra are able to use the Force to push Darth Vader to the ground. Are they now stronger than Vader? Or Ahsoka, since all she could do was push him back?

You did recall that I mentioned Darth Vader “actively resisting” Ahsoka’s Force Push? Darth Vader actively steeled himself against Ahsoka’s push. He didn’t do anything of the sort against Kanan and Ezra.

I could bring even more examples, but I don't need to since I have two with Darth Vader himself proving that simply breaking his defenses doesn't mean you're comparable to his Telekinetic powers.

You have not proved anything.

Mocking Statement: You are not the great debater you think you are.

It's just sad how little you know at this point.

It’s sad that you actively nuke your own points. I didn’t even have to try.

@zacharyhampton:

Oh, if you are going to be arrogant, then what I have to say is, “This is where the fun begins.”

So you're confident enough to act smug and try to sneak the last word in but you're not not confident enough to tag me so I could see it.

Sounds about right.

I have never tried to draw parity between “Canon” and “Legends.” You are the one who assumes that I do.

You haven't? Then where in Canon did you get these?

"the Nexus would drain her strength every second she was on Malachor"

"epicenter of an extremely powerful Dark Nexus"

"Darth Vader was amped considerably, and Ahsoka was considerably weakened".

Nothing about Canon Malachor states anything remotely close to what you wrote here, the only quotes stating as such are ones talking about Legends Malachor. So either you have been trying to draw parity between the two of them and assume any quote or statement made about the dark side nexus on Malachor in Legends carries over to Malachor in Canon (which nothing supports), or you've pulled those descriptions and statements out of your ass.

If Malachor did have those statements, you would have already posted said evidence instead of trying to say Sith Temple powered by kyber crystal = dark side nexus.

I never said Canon Malachor = Legends Malachor. You are the one who attempts to put that in my mouth. In fact, you admit that you don’t even know if this is what I am trying to do here.

Of course I admit I don't know what you're trying to do because you're using statements made about Malachor that only exist in Legends and applying them to Canon Malachor. A dark side nexus in Canon =/= a dark side nexus in Legends, just as Canon Darth Bane =/= Legends Darth Bane, Canon Quinlan Vos =/= Legends Quinlan Vos, Canon Mandalore =/= Legends Mandalore, etc.

The only quotes proving what you've said about Malachor come from Legends, yet you applied them to Canon when it doesn't work that way. Of course I don't know what you're doing because it doesn't make sense.

When you pull the arrogance card, be very sure of your own statements. Or you’ll just send me into more fits of laughter than I’ve already had after your...passionate...spiel.

Right.

Oh, but I did show that Malachor is a planet strong in the Dark Side

Good for you. You still haven't proven any of these:

"the Nexus would drain her strength every second she was on Malachor"

"epicenter of an extremely powerful Dark Nexus"

"Darth Vader was amped considerably, and Ahsoka was considerably weakened".

I already knew you couldn't prove any of these since the first reply, and seeing you reach and reach and reach has been a fun treat.

And TCW Season 6 Episode 13, “Sacrifice,” made it clear that light siders are hampered in places strong with the Dark Side.

Prove it. And unless we see the actual words "a dark side nexus severely hampers a light side user and extremely amps a dark side user" or the words "every second you spend on a dark side nexus drains a Jedi's strength", then you still have no argument.

Remember this train of logic, because I’m going to use it to obliterate your “arguments” for The Jedi Exile (which was a lazy copy-paste of someone else’s work).

The only thing you've obliterated has been your credibility and objectivity.

And lol as if I need anything other than a "lazy copy-paste" to address the level of reaching you've shown.

Watch the fight again. I’m not even going to bother quoting Maul’s lines. But I will say this in response.

I did, which is why I actually know that I'm talking about. You should watch it yourself, since me perfectly describing what happened apparently isn't enough for you.

You mean the ”quotes” which are simply general descriptions?

Do you not know the meaning of an accolade or a statement?

You realize that with the logic in those quotes, anyone who knows Form II would receive a “may have been one of the greatest dueling masters that the galaxy has ever seen?”

Yeah, I do, since I know how to read quotes and statements and not let my own personal beliefs dictate whether or not they should be valid.

Would you try to discredit everyone who learned and mastered Juyo, too?

So now quantity > quality? Okay, Jaden Korr easily fought through more members of Tavian’s cult than the Jedi Exile fought Dark Siders. JA Jaden Korr > The Jedi Exile based on your logic.

So not only can you not read your own quotes (since you think they say words they don't), you can't read the quotes and statements I post, and now you can't understand logic.

You attempted to downplay the Jedi Exile by saying that all of the Sith Assassins she fought on Peragus were weak because they couldn't drain her own powers to strengthen them. I replied with "that's irrelevant since she beat more of them on a dark side nexus that amped them later", and your reply is "hur dur quantity ? quality?" while inserting a comparison that further demonstrates your bias towards the Exile and lack of basic understanding.

Lucky for her, the Exile has quantity and quality, but I wouldn't expect you to know that, even now.

And “legions” is the most vague description I have ever heard. Unless you seriously want to convince me that the Jedi Exile fought through 4,000 Sith?

I shouldn't have to convince you of anything. The quotes are there. Choosing to discredit them because you don't personally believe them is the tell tale sign of a terrible debater.

Are you trying to make me laugh? Most of those accolades aren’t even for the Jedi Exile specifically.

I've counted ten already that are about the Jedi Exile specifically, and I didn't even count the accolades I gave to you.

It's increasingly clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

Sure, go ahead and ignore that an amped Darth Sion lost to someone who couldn’t failed Sith Student Level 16 trials. Just hand me some more vague designations that you didn’t compile.

Like most of the....gibberish you've been saying, this makes no sense.

And why would I make a Sion Respect Thread when ShootingNova already did?

"Vague designations" yet you called Ahsoka's "Dark Side Gauntlet" lol

Better yet, you say

Then, wait for it, you give me THIS to back up your statement...

So, it would seem that the only quotes you can find are general accolades for the era. You have completely lost all credibility, considering how you actively disprove your own chain of logic.

So let me get this straight. You see the words "large numbers of Jedi" yet your brain reads "every single Jedi"? You see the words "the Jedi in their prime" and can't draw the conclusion that Meetra being one of the most skilled in an era of Jedi of their prime makes her insanely skilled?

You can say I lost all credibility all you want, you're the one who completely misreads entire words.

You can say how I disprove my own logic all you want, yet its clear you never had a grasp of it in the first place.

How about I give you Dave Filoni’s opinion on Ahsoka’s skills. Specific to Ahsoka’s skills.

That would put Ahsoka above both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Maul - both of whom we see engage in lightsaber combat during Rebels. And Freddie Prince Jr., who has stated that what he knows comes from Filoni.

The funny thing is, statements and quotes, when contradicted by feats, cannot be taken and used. Filoni claiming Ahsoka is top 3/4 in the galaxy and that only Vader and Sidious can match her is literally proven wrong in the episode when Maul matches her blow for blow. On top of that, he does better against three Inquisitors than she ever did against two.

And the opinion of Freddie Prinze Jr is just that - an opinion. He's a voice actor and what he says has no bearing on the greater Canon.

This is flat out embarrassing.

And yes, Dark Siders are amped on Malachor, as per Henry Gilroy’s reponse as to how Inquisitor’s flew on Malachor

Show me where in that quote does Gilroy say, word for word, what you've claimed about dark side nexuses. Show me. This is what you've said, in case you try and back track.

"the Nexus would drain her strength every second she was on Malachor"

"epicenter of an extremely powerful Dark Nexus"

"Darth Vader was amped considerably, and Ahsoka was considerably weakened".

I know you can't, but show me where Gilroy states or backs up anything you said.

I have proved it far better than you have “proved” anything about the Jedi Exile.

> provides no evidence for Malachor being a dark side nexus, no quote, no statement, nothing

> provides no evidence to back up what you claimed a dark side nexus does, be it amping dark siders, weakening light siders, and draining light siders energy every second

> "I proved it better than you even though you made claims and backed them up with evidence"

Lmao

You did recall that I mentioned Darth Vader “actively resisting” Ahsoka’s Force Push? Darth Vader actively steeled himself against Ahsoka’s push.

I do recall it, even though it's both wrong and baseless. She pushed Vader and he slid to a stop. You have nothing to back up your headcanon of Vader "actively resisting". Absolutely nothing.

He didn’t do anything of the sort against Kanan and Ezra.

So Kanan and Ezra are now more powerful than Ahsoka and now scale to Vader, according to your logic. They were able to Force Push him back before he had the time to "actively resist" and "steel" himself.

Good job.

You have not proved anything.

Mocking Statement: You are not the great debater you think you are.

I haven't had this much fun dismantling someone's arguments in a long time. Thank you for that.

I didn’t even have to try.

I can tell you didn't, since no competent debater would be that bad.

Oh wait...

So what have we learned?

1) Malachor is not the nexus you claim it is. It doesn't amp dark side users, it doesn't weaken light side users, and it definitely didn't weak Ahsoka every second she was on the planet.

2) Ahsoka by no means scales to Darth Vader in Telekinetic power, which means she gets Drained easily by Traya.

3) The Jedi Exile is > Ahsoka because she fought more fodder than Ahsoka did (legions of Sith warriors > three Inquisitors), better fodder than Ahsoka did (accolades of the legions of Sith Warriors > Inquisitors), and went on to defeat Traya on a powerful dark side nexus that was amping Traya greatly, weakening the Exile greatly, and doing so with every step she took on the planet, unlike what you tried to claim was happening to Ahsoka.

I'm interested to see if you'll actually have the courage to tag me next time, even though I won't be responding. This has been too off-topic and I've wasted enough time with arguments such as yours.