@sovereign91001 - Has not responded to the debate, eliminated from the final.
Marvel Cosmic Team
Gallery
Adam Warlock, Nova (Richard Rider), Binary
Transmutation Immunity
Detailed Info
Rules
Win by KO, Incapacitation or Death.
BFR allowed but only temporarily for 5 minutes maximum.
Combatants are in character.
Marvel characters are Pre Secret Wars/Post Secret Wars unless stated otherwise.
Fight takes place in Jurassic Park.
X-Men start at the Red X, Masters of Evil start at the Blue X, Marvel Cosmic Team start at the Black X.
Tourney/Voting Considerations
The debate will last 4 weeks until voting is opened but it can be finished before this deadline.
Voting lasts a week.
Voters are advised to consider voting for the debater they thought had the best arguments and strategies, not the team who they think would win the fight.
Winner may be the debater who gets 10 votes first but this can either be extended or decreased depending on interest in the debate.
@higorm@darkraiden@sovereign91001 HigorM reminded me I was still running this so I've made this thread to see if you other two have any interest in finishing my tourney. It's fine if you don't, I let it slide after all.
"My name is Robert Drake. Iceman. I've been an X-Man, an X...Factor-ian, a Defender, a Champion (don't ask). I've been a super hero since before I was old enough to shave. I've stood side by side with the toughest, most powerful heroes in the known universe and always held my own. But today... today I need to be something more. So go ahead, call me a joke if you want. Label me the X-Man with the lamest power ever. But a man of untapped potential? Don't you dare ever call me that again!"
> Potential:
Robert Drake has been stated to be an Omega Level Mutant. He was as well considered as an Omega Level Mutate by Supergiant, an Alpha-Level Mutant by Apocalypse, a High Threat by the O*N*E. According to Prosh, his Comparative Mutagenic Power Register was of 3.2. His powers aren't used as their most, but have been unlocked on some occasions by encountering Loki, Mikhail Rasputin and Emma Frost. On other occasions, he was unlocked by telepaths, such as Psylocke. His powers include: thermokinesis, cryokinesis, thermal vision, hydrokinesis, molecular moisture manipulation and ice clone generation.
> Source:
X-Men: The 198 Files #1
X-Men Forever #3
Origin of Marvel Comics: X-Men #1
Carey on "Manifest Destiny", on CBR
New Avengers Vol 3 #9: Supergiant states that the "only real danger" is the "Omega Level Mutates", and target Iceman. It is confirmed by Tom Brevoort statement that he was concerned by the statement and not Storm or Rachel Summers.
"I don't want you to get hurt, but you have to understand... The more you annoy me the more I can't help thinking about deconstructing you, molecule by molecule, memory by memory... until there's nothing left but screaming, traumatized atoms"
Jean Grey was one of the five original X-Men. An omega-level mutant telekinetic and telepath, Jean has gained near limitless powers as a recurrent host of the Phoenix Force. She is known for her many returns from death and as the deceased wife of Cyclops.
Jean Grey it’s one of the most powerful telepaths, to such an extent that she had been stated to be the most powerful. Jean is able to use her telepathy in different ways as Mind Communication, Mind Reading, Mind Transferral, Mind Detection, Psychic Surgery, cast near flawless Illusions, project her Astral Form, control the Astral Plane, create Psychic Links with other beings and Mind Manipulation. She’s able to manipulate minds in different ways as Mind Control, Mind Possession, Hypnosis, induce Paralysis, modify or erase someone memories, Amnesia, prevent another mutant to use his powers, increase another mutant’s powers, induce Pain, change someone’s personality. At close range Jean can manipulate any number of minds at once. Jean can also mentally injure, stun or kill opponents with bolts of pure psionic force. Her psychic powers are so strong that they can bypass numerous forms of immunity and resistence.
Jean Grey it’s also able to protect her mind and another’s ones from Mind Intrusion. Her defensive telepathy allows also her to Cloak Mind and to Telepathic Cloak. After her power switch with Psylocke, she temporally manifests a Phoenix symbol over her right eye on her astral form. Jean also starts since this moment to manifest her telepathy as a Phoenix raptor. Emma Frost herself, stated that Jean Grey "..goes beyond a regular telepath(...) she's judge and jury".
> Potential
Jean Grey has been stated to be an Omega Level Mutant. By birth, Jean is among the most powerful telepaths, telekinetics and psions. She is also one with the Phoenix Force, and while acting as its avatar she is one of the most powerful Cosmic entities in the Earth-616 universe. She also was considered to be a "Mutant Alpha-Psi", an Alpha Level Telepath and an Alpha-Level Mutant. According to Prosh, her Comparative Mutagenic Power Register was of 8.9
"You are wrong, Sinister. We are not the last of our kind -- we are the first. No one will kill us. Not you, not the Inhumans. We are the children of Xavier. We are all brothers and sisters... and together there is nothing we cannot do."
The younger sister of Colossus. Illyana Rasputina is a mutant teleporter, a sorceress, and the ruler of Limbo, who is currently a member of Storm's team of mutants residing in the "Jean Grey Institute for Higher Learning". Illyana has two very distinctive powers, one is her mutant power to generate spacial/temporal warps in the form of stepping discs, the other is her magic, learned while she was in Limbo. As more and more of her soul was removed, it was replaced and filled with Black Magic granting vast mystical abilities.
> Potential:
Mutant power: Illyana Rasputin has the mutant ability to create and control teleportation energies in the form of "stepping discs". These yellow rings of glowing light, once created, provide the ability to teleport. Not only just herself but a group of individuals as well, to a multitude of different places including destinations in both time and space. The only limitation to her teleportation power is that she must use Limbo as her stopping point prior to her final destination, wherever that may be. Magik can also teleport herself or others into her domain, Limbo or "Hell" dimension or out of it. As Limbo is her domain, Illyana is able to mentally scan Limbo, while on Earth in order to locate whomever she wishes to teleport to Earth from it. Magik has succeeded in teleporting herself and another person across a continent on one occasion, and to travel through time on a few others.
Sorcery: Magik is the sorceress supreme of her Limbo dimension. The extent of her powers there are all powerful and powerful demons of Limbo did not dare challenge her. Magik had access to Belasco's store of mystical knowledge. Magik's sorcery was a unique mix of black magic, that she learned from Belasco, and white magic, she was taught by an alternative-reality Ororo Munroe. On one occasion, Magik was shown to have easily inhibited the powers of The Enchantress, while in Limbo, despite The Enchantress being a powerful sorceress in her own right. Magik is capable of casting binding spells, energy blasts, scrying, projecting an astral form, and other talents. On Earth she was limited to Astral Projection, a Mystical Sense (ability to detect mystical presences), simple spells, and summoning her Soulsword. Since her tutelage under Doctor Strange Magik's has shown better control and powerful spells on Earth. She can also summom the Mystical Eldritch Armor, revealed by Dr. Doom that the mystical armor that manifests on the individual that wields the Soulsword is actually a magical armor provided to any who rule Limbo. The armor deflects or limits attacks, both physical and magical. Illyana's armor also provides protection from the Transmode Virus.
> Source:
X-Men Origins: Colossus #1
Giant-Size X-Men #1
X-Infernus #1-#2
X-Infernus #4
Avengers vs. X-Men #5
Uncanny X-Men #153
Uncanny X-Men Vol 3 #22
Women of Marvel: Celebrating Seven Decades Handbook #1
X-Men: Messiah Complex - Mutant Files #1
Opening Statements
The way I see it, my team possess a great combination of powers that can be used for both offensively and defensively. They are all X-Men, so they worked together before, which means great team chemistry from the start. My team holds another a key advantage from the start that is previous knowledge and time to apply said knowledge within the battlefield. So we no only possess detailed info about your team but also more than enough time to prepare ourselves to what you may have and try to use against us, striking your team in specific ways to inflict major damage, resulting in a effective offensive.
As mentioned, this mutant team possess 3 different kinds of powers that grants a myriad of possibilities for both attack and defensive purposes. Iceman can create a near absolute zero cold field, Jean Grey can create a powerfull telekinetic shield and Magik can use her sorcery to protect the team with an additional magical force-field. An impenetrable barrier that consists of 3 different protective layers.
Not to mention that Magik possess ways to turn the team invisible through a invisibility spell. So before anything, you must prove how your team will find mine and than surpass the aforementioned three-dimensional shield, and then start thinking about touching them with your powers.
1 Day Prep
My team will use the given time to apply this actions:
Jean Grey, will use her psionic powers to unlock Iceman's full potential, the same way both Emma Frost and Psylocke did before, so he can achieve omnipresence from the start, which means he will be everywhere at the same time.
At this point, Iceman will use his powers to create a hostile environment for your team, while keeping his team protected at the same time, since while weakened, Bobby manage to lower the temperature to -150, he then claims to be able to quickly get it down to Absolute Zero on a good day. Here's another instance he manage to reach such extreme temperature. At absolute zero all molecular motion ceases, so no heat energy remains in a substance.
Jean Grey will create the second defensive layer, using her powers to raise a powerfull telekinetic shield. After all, he TK shield is nearly impenetrable, and have allowed her to travel through hyperspace into a white hole, tank a full blast from Binary, and also tank a nuclear gas explosion at point blank range and contain an explosion that could potentially wipe out a time line (AoA).
Magik then finishes the first act, erecting her magical shield. At this point she will be wielding he Soulsword and Eldrich Armor, in addition, she use one of her spells to turn the entire team invisible.
Iceman creates and army of clones to help the team in battle, same clones that were able to keep Rulk busy.
> Results:
My team enters the battlefield fully protected and aware about the enemy capabilities, having created a hostile environment through Iceman absolute zero that will neutralize your speed advantage. At this point my team is ready and free to strike since you can't even see them thanks to Magik sorcery. It will be matter of time until your team goes down since I don't see how they will deal with my powerfull defensive shielding, Iceman's absolute zero, Magik's sorcery or Jean Grey TK at the molecular level, among other things..
She uses magic to do various things. Illusions, summon the dead, teleport, control time, shoot blasts, etc. She's most known for seducing men and her powerful mind control which had Red Onslaught acting like her dog. She's also survived fights against powerful opponents like Hela (she didn't do well though) and Karnilla the Norn Queen
Absorbing Man
He...absorbs things he touches. It can be materials, energy, or even people. He even has an ultimate move of somehow touching the ground and becoming super powerful. I personally don't get it, but it works. Oh and he got his powers from Loki.
Wrecking Crew
A team who share the power of Wrecker's crowbar which is supposed to be equal to Thor's hammer Mjolnir. Thunderball's wrecking ball can drain energy, and they're pretty strong when not jobbing. They're vicious, ruthless, and brutes who are great at absorbing energy.
Prep
1. Absorbing Man will touch Wrecker's crowbar, taking on the properties for his entire body except for one of his arms. That arm will touch Thunderball's wrecking ball and turn into that.
2. Enchantress make my team invisible
3. Enchantress raises earth golems for you to fight/to distract you.
Strategy
0. Before we get involved, we will watch the two teams fight and stay away from the action at first, for the most part. At least anything visible and physical.
1. As soon as the fight starts, Enchantress uses a spell to put both teams to sleep as they focus on each other.
2. That's win by incap, but she can also transmute your team to stone and wood and will do so as you sleep.
3. The Wrecking Crew have been able to stomp Hercules, beat a depowered Juggernaut, get the best of the Defenders, nearly beat Thor, and so on. Thunderball's wrecking ball can instantly sap energy from whoever it wraps around and Wrecker's crowbar can hurt the likes of Thor and Hulk (Thunderball's wrecking ball has as well). Anyone here can be held off by them in a physical fight, and anyone here can be neutralized by the energy sapping.
If anyone gains the ability to see us suddenly, they will act like the goons they are and take care of them.
4. Absorbing Man will be helping them attack, taking on the power of the Soul Sword, any of our enemies (Jean, Magik, Warlock, Nova, Binary, any of them), and any energy/projectiles that are shot out, if any. He uses his current powers of Wrecker's crowbar and Thunderball's Wrecking Ball to KO and drain others though.
5. But this is all for naught as Enchantress sleeps them and transmutes them. She can also possibly paralyze or bind them with her magics or even kill them (as she did Hulk). Being invisible, no one should be targeting us at all, meaning you won't be prepared for the sleep spell or any of the spells she uses. The Earth Golems keep you busy.
Also of note, she can make illusions of herself as well if someone sees through the invisibility (impossibly) and any male will be controlled via her...enchanting them.
Minor Rebuttals to Team Mutant
1. Enchantress is a super powerful and experienced sorceress who's bested Lorelei, match Karnilla, escaped from and somewhat bested Nightmare, and someone who's mental prowess allowed her to laugh off Professor X's TP and make Onslaught her slave. The invisibility spell shouldn't do much to her and thus my team (she can share vision and can direct them).
2. The shields/defenses shouldn't matter much to energy drain from the Wrecking Crew and Absorbing Man or from Enchantress's transmutation.
3. And we'll be catching the team unawares thanks to Enchantress's own invisibility spell.
Adam Warlock was created by a cadre of scientist looking to create the perfect human; the pinnacle of evolution. He is well known for his ability to be reborn after death, increasing the scope of his powers.
Powers
Enhanced Physiology
Flight
Quantum Magic
Energy Manipulation
Telepathy
Telekinesis
Cosmic Awareness
Gear
Soul Gem
Karmic Staff
Nova
Richard Rider is Nova Prime, a designation that means he is not only the leader of the Nova Corps but also has the lionshare of the Nova Force (for this battle he has 100%) Also known as the Human Rocket, Rich is a class A hero who has extensive tactical and leading experience after saving the Universe during the Annihilation War.
Powers
Super Strength
Invulnerability
Super Speed
Energy Manipulation
Flight
Gravametric Control
Gear
Worldmind
Binary
Carol's enhanced form was obatained when she was kidnapped and experimented on by the Brood while on an adventure with the X-Men. She describes this form as having 'the functional power of a star'. Given what she can do that's not much of a stretch.
Powers
Super Strength
Super Speed
Invulnerability
Flight
Cosmic Awareness
Energy Manipulation
Gravity Manipulation
Rebuttals to Higor
Jean Grey will create the second defensive layer, using her powers to raise a powerfull telekinetic shield. After all, he TK shield is nearly impenetrable, and have allowed her to travel through hyperspace into a white hole, tank a full blast from Binary, and also tank a nuclear gas explosion at point blank range and contain an explosion that could potentially wipe out a time line
I object to this, especially the Binary showing, Carol has casual planet busting power in her Binary form, and by her own statement the power of a star, Jean outside of the Phoenix Force doesn't have planetary feats, she has a couple of mountain level shields, but the blast from Carol wasn't at full power and if Lobdell (I believe he wrote that issue of XMU) depicted it as such, it is a ridiculously low showing for Carol or an absurdly high one for Jean. I say all that as someone who's represented her in numerous debates. The last feat is unquantifiable and imo not really a factor.
Magik then finishes the first act, erecting her magical shield. At this point she will be wielding he Soulsword and Eldrich Armor, in addition, she use one of her spells to turn the entire team invisible.
I don't know how @darkraiden will respond to invisibility but it won't have much effect on my team, they have cosmic awareness and Adam has about three other senses that don't make it an obstacle for my guys .
Not too much else to say as you haven't commited to a plan of attack yet.
Rebuttals to DarkRaiden
Before we get involved, we will watch the two teams fight and stay away from the action at first, for the most part. At least anything visible and physical.
Here's the problem with that @higorm and I both have detailed info and all three teams are in character, in addition two of our character's Jean and Carol are very good friends, in addition your team is composed of villains, it is far more likely that we'd take your team out first and then deal with each other.
1. As soon as the fight starts, Enchantress uses a spell to put both teams to sleep as they focus on each other.
Your team has no knowledge of who or what they're facing, she wouldn't know who to put to sleep.
2. That's win by incap, but she can also transmute your team to stone and wood and will do so as you sleep.
Can't, my team can't be transmuted.
Enchantress make my team invisible
Same thing with Higor, Cosmic awareness and all that counters invisibility and makes illusions useless.
Strategy
Adam will use his TP to form a psychic web between my teammates, then he and Carol will use their senses to locate @darkraiden's team. Nova will use his speed to blitz, this is not only in character, but is one of his preferred methods of attacking (hence the 'Human Rocket' moniker), his top movement speed outside of hyper space is luminal speed, his top blitzing speed shown on panel is .8 superluminal (80% the speed of light), to my knowledge none of your team is even hypersonic in reaction speed, let alone anywhere near superluminal. So he would only need to use a small fraction of that speed to take your guys out and be gone before they even knew what hit them, he'd drop in either with massive strikes or large scale gravity pulses. A small 10 g pulse would hit your characters with the equivalent weight of Hoover Dam (6.6 million tons give or take) far more than enough to one-shot pretty much everyone on your team, if need be he can scale these up on several magnitudes higher.
Although unnesscary, Binary can support him as she has similar movement speed, although blitzing isn't her go to move like Nova, she can lay down some pretty strong gravity manipulation as well, sufficent to open stellar sized white holes or casual miniture black holes.
Scans
Gallery
Carol Explains her senses go beyond Cosmic Awareness.
1. Absorbing Man will touch Wrecker's crowbar, taking on the properties for his entire body except for one of his arms. That arm will touch Thunderball's wrecking ball and turn into that.
2. Enchantress make my team invisible
3. Enchantress raises earth golems for you to fight/to distract you.
Predictable.
Stop copying my strategy!
Earth golems? Not sure how useful you think they would be but ok.
"Strategy"
0. Before we get involved, we will watch the two teams fight and stay away from the action at first, for the most part. At least anything visible and physical.
1. As soon as the fight starts, Enchantress uses a spell to put both teams to sleep as they focus on each other.
2. That's win by incap, but she can also transmute your team to stone and wood and will do so as you sleep.
3. The Wrecking Crew have been able to stomp Hercules, beat a depowered Juggernaut, get the best of the Defenders, nearly beat Thor, and so on. Thunderball's wrecking ball can instantly sap energy from whoever it wraps around and Wrecker's crowbar can hurt the likes of Thor and Hulk (Thunderball's wrecking ball has as well). Anyone here can be held off by them in a physical fight, and anyone here can be neutralized by the energy sapping.
If anyone gains the ability to see us suddenly, they will act like the goons they are and take care of them.
4. Absorbing Man will be helping them attack, taking on the power of the Soul Sword, any of our enemies (Jean, Magik, Warlock, Nova, Binary, any of them), and any energy/projectiles that are shot out, if any. He uses his current powers of Wrecker's crowbar and Thunderball's Wrecking Ball to KO and drain others though.
5. But this is all for naught as Enchantress sleeps them and transmutes them. She can also possibly paralyze or bind them with her magics or even kill them (as she did Hulk). Being invisible, no one should be targeting us at all, meaning you won't be prepared for the sleep spell or any of the spells she uses. The Earth Golems keep you busy.
Also of note, she can make illusions of herself as well if someone sees through the invisibility (impossibly) and any male will be controlled via her...enchanting them.
0. I doubt this kind of strategy can be applied in a combat situation with so many characters involved, especially when you have 2 hero teams against a villain team, the odds is that the heroes band together to take your team out first.
1. Spell doesn't work on my team because Magik is the personification of anti-magic. Thanks to the soulsword she can disrupt magic and break spells, for example, destroy the connection between Colossus and the Cyttorak. So Enchantress is a non-factor for my team in this battle.
2. Actually it's not. Enchantress will be dealt as soon as the battle starts thanks to Magik who can bring her to Limbo and remove her powers, something she has done before in classic ol'days as you can see here.
3. Yeah and they also got curbstomped by classic Iron Fist. Regardless of their physical prowess, my team doesn't have to engage them in a physical fight. Let's see we have Magik who can send them to Limbo and finish them there, considering you don't have BFR immunity this is entirely possible. Iceman can just flash freeze them the same way he did to the Thing, neutralize them like he did to Thor, or just freeze their blood flow in the same fashion he did to Legion and Emma Frost. Finally we have Jean Grey who can just mind rape them (unless you can prove me they can resist or are somehow immunte to telepathy). Any of those moves happens before your team can react, considering speed isn't their strong suit.
4. How can Absorbing Man take on the power of the soulsword in the first place? Can you explain that to me? What stops my team from neutralizing him as soon as the battle starts? Does he have immunity to magic or telepathy for example?
5. Again with that? Enchantress is gone in the first seconds of the battle, your MVP character means nothing to my team, she will be the first to go down. Earth Golems are fodder to my team so I don't see how they will keep them busy, especially when Iceman using his clones that were able to keep the Rulk down, which means I possess minions at the limit for this tourney.
"Minor Rebuttals to Team Mutant"
1. Enchantress is a super powerful and experienced sorceress who's bested Lorelei, match Karnilla, escaped from and somewhat bested Nightmare, and someone who's mental prowess allowed her to laugh off Professor X's TP and make Onslaught her slave. The invisibility spell shouldn't do much to her and thus my team (she can share vision and can direct them).
2. The shields/defenses shouldn't matter much to energy drain from the Wrecking Crew and Absorbing Man or from Enchantress's transmutation.
3. And we'll be catching the team unawares thanks to Enchantress's own invisibility spell.
That's it for now.
1. That's great but she still doesn't mean much to my team thanks to Magik as already explained. Her magic tricks and spell will be of no effect on my team thanks to the soulsword which can just disrupt them.
2. Your team will be neutralized before they can even react. Especially if you consider that both hero teams will be fighting your team first so you won't have time to do any of those things and you certainly don't pack enough power to stop any of us.
3. Again, Enchantress is a non-factor in this battle since Magik can just bring her to Limbo and strip her from her powers the same way she did before. You don't have the knowledge perk so you can't possible predict this which means no counter at all, the fact you stand still in the beginning of the fight only makes it easier for my team.
> Sovereign91001:
"Binary showing"
I object to this, especially the Binary showing, Carol has casual planet busting power in her Binary form, and by her own statement the power of a star, Jean outside of the Phoenix Force doesn't have planetary feats, she has a couple of mountain level shields, but the blast from Carol wasn't at full power and if Lobdell (I believe he wrote that issue of XMU) depicted it as such, it is a ridiculously low showing for Carol or an absurdly high one for Jean. I say all that as someone who's represented her in numerous debates. The last feat is unquantifiable and imo not really a factor.
Frankly I don't see that way. Jean Grey other feats proves the effectiveness of her shields. It happened in X-Men Unlimited vol.1 #13
Context:
Five X-Men (Cyclops, Jean Grey, Rogue, Bishop, and the Beast) and Binary are on Starcore research station helping out when Binary goes crazy and starts to lash out. Suddenly, the Shi’ar arrive to kill Binary, but she disappears into space, leaving the X-Men to be arrested. Deathbird tells the X-Men that they will be put to death for helping Binary when Princess Lilandra arrives, telling all that the Silver Surfer has destroyed Zenn La. After a brief skirmish, the X-Men are convince Lilandra to let them help solve the case. Elsewhere, Binary returns to the spot of a white hole she created to save Earth, which now puts the planet in danger. Still elsewhere, the Silver Surfer is attacked by Shi’ar and learns of the attacks on Zenn La, leaving him confused. Back with the Shi’ar, the Beast has discovered three anomalies: one is Binary’s star, the other is where Zenn La was and the third is in a remote spot in space. If all three areas were to go into supernova, the galaxy would be destroyed. As tremors are felt throughout the galaxy, Jean Grey confronts Binary, who is being mind controlled by entities called the Inciters. Jean Grey frees Binary as Rogue and Cyclops meet the Silver Surfer at the third anomaly. The Surfer and Rogue fly into a ripple and confront the Inciters, who destroyed Zenn La and framed the Surfer. Rogue is assimilated, but is soon freed by the Surfer from the Inciters. The Surfer destroys the aliens and flies off to mourn Zenn La. The X-Men return home as Lilandra and Deathbird decide to keep the existence of the Inciters a secret from the empire.
So it looks like they were dealing with an out of control Binary that was draining energy from a white star..
Gallery
Basically, as seen in those scans, Jean Grey can encase Binary in a wide psionic field and tap into her mind, to persuade her to power down, and at certain moment she even says that she must be careful to not fry Carol's synapses in the process. I'm sure that a more experienced and powerful Jean Grey can do the same here. I say more powerful due to the recent upgrade she received in Guardians of the Galaxy #13, part 6 - the trial of Jean Grey where she discovers a new power now being able to use her telepathy and telekinesis in together to draw the power from all of those around her. As you can see in the scans below:
Gallery
"Invisibility"
I don't know how @darkraiden will respond to invisibility but it won't have much effect on my team, they have cosmic awareness and Adam has about three other senses that don't make it an obstacle for my guys .
Not too much else to say as you haven't commited to a plan of attack yet.
Can you show me the cosmic awareness working against magical spells?
Basically my plan of attack consists in Iceman's absolute zero, Magik's sorcery and Jean Grey psionics, which includes TK at the molecular level, among other things.. So let me ask you, your team possess strong TP defenses?
0. I doubt this kind of strategy can be applied in a combat situation with so many characters involved, especially when you have 2 hero teams against a villain team, the odds is that the heroes band together to take your team out first.
1. Spell doesn't work on my team because Magik is the personification of anti-magic. Thanks to the soulsword she can disrupt magic and break spells, for example, destroy the connection between Colossus and the Cyttorak. So Enchantress is a non-factor for my team in this battle.
2. Actually it's not. Enchantress will be dealt as soon as the battle starts thanks to Magik who can bring her to Limbo and remove her powers, something she has done before in classic ol'days as you can see here.
3. Yeah and they also got curbstomped by classic Iron Fist. Regardless of their physical prowess, my team doesn't have to engage them in a physical fight. Let's see we have Magik who can send them to Limbo and finish them there, considering you don't have BFR immunity this is entirely possible. Iceman can just flash freeze them the same way he did to the Thing, neutralize them like he did to Thor, or just freeze their blood flow in the same fashion he did to Legion and Emma Frost. Finally we have Jean Grey who can just mind rape them (unless you can prove me they can resist or are somehow immunte to telepathy). Any of those moves happens before your team can react, considering speed isn't their strong suit.
4. How can Absorbing Man take on the power of the soulsword in the first place? Can you explain that to me? What stops my team from neutralizing him as soon as the battle starts? Does he have immunity to magic or telepathy for example?
5. Again with that? Enchantress is gone in the first seconds of the battle, your MVP character means nothing to my team, she will be the first to go down. Earth Golems are fodder to my team so I don't see how they will keep them busy, especially when Iceman using his clones that were able to keep the Rulk down, which means I possess minions at the limit for this tourney.
0. The amount of people here doesn't matter. I have prep and will use it to hide my team from your and Sovereign's sight. You can try to seek me out, but it won't matter much since you'll be taken out while searching.
1. This is 100% untrue. Well, 50% anyways. The soulsword DOES disrupt magic, but only once it touches said magic. You'd have to know exactly where I was through other means and THEN strike the spell/Enchantress without Enchantress simply teleporting and/or moving. Magik's been hit by well..magic before and the soul sword doesn't auto stop anything near her.
Shown here with Scarlet Witch in AvX
Also with Enchantress herself
Loki too has controlled her and used magic on her if you want to see that too.
2. This is leaving out a large part of the story. Enchantress defeated magic and had her tied up, toying with her, and torturing her. She even manifested Darkchild, had her under her control, turning all of the X-Men to Enchantress' side, and she was only defeated by Karma taking control of said X-Men and trying, but struggling to take control over Enchantress. And even then, Enchantress was proven to have anti-teleportation spells/wards which prevented Magik from taking her to limbo in the first place.
And even that was accomplished due to her being group attacked by the X-Men who had to go free Magik btw.
Proof:
3. They also stomped Iron Fist. They also beat the Defenders (Hulk and Dr. Strange included), had Namor and Atlantis on the ropes, in water. Beat down a weakened Juggernaut, stomped Hercules so bad he had nightmares, were beating the Avengers enough to kidnap Monica and then were beating them again with her as a power source until overloaded.
Telepathy won't happen due to Enchantress. She's laughed off Professor X's telepathy and has controlled Red Onslaught.
Ice won't happen due to Iceman being put to sleep/transmuted. Also he can easily be drained by them and be left with no energy.
BFR won't happen due to Enchantress stopping it or just bringing them back. Also, Thunderball has literally retrieved Wrecker out of a different dimension before and Wrecker has shown the ability to teleport.
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Hell they could bring back anyone you teleport as well, if you could somehow get past Enchantress' anti-teleportation defenses.
4. Absorbing Man takes the power of what he touches. See below:
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Vs. Odin's powers and other magic/substances in Asgard
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Sentry, A Cosmic Cube (utilizing it's reality warping powers on Sentry), and some bracelets he touched that had powers (I'm not 100% sure what they were)
So he takes the power of what he touches. Soul Sword will be no different. And remember, at the start of battle, he's basically Wrecker's crowbar personified with Thunderball's wrecking ball to absorb/drain energy.
5. This has been debunked in points 1 and 2, Enchantress' magic has literally already defeated Magik before. She's far from immune to spells in any way. Especially passive spells such as invisibility. To dispel anything she has to touch it with her sword.
And I'll show this while debunking Sovereign but, Enchantress' invisibility has worked on Heimdall and Odin. Magik has nothing on them as far as seeing through invisibility.
Oh and the Earth Golems are just for distraction. They'll keep Jean, Iceman, and Magik busy, as well as Sovereign's team. Even if only for a quick moment, which is all I need to sleep and transmute your team.
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They did however seem to take a few hits from Hulk (Cho, not Banner) and can grow out of the ground seamlessly, surprising anyone on your team for a further distraction.
Rebuttal to Sovereign
Here's the problem with that @higorm and I both have detailed info and all three teams are in character, in addition two of our character's Jean and Carol are very good friends, in addition your team is composed of villains, it is far more likely that we'd take your team out first and then deal with each other.
1. This doesn't matter to me actually. Who you try to team up against doesn't help you when you can't perceive my team in anyway. You'll fight the golems and be forced to fight each other, if it gets to that. Especially the males. Should Iceman, Warlock, and Nova not be taken out via sleep as I detailed, and by the Wrecking Crew and Absorbing Man, Enchantress will simply control them. As she did to Red Onslaught among others (Thor, Hulk, etc.)
Your team has no knowledge of who or what they're facing, she wouldn't know who to put to sleep.
2. I'm honestly unsure what you mean by this. She will sleep everyone. There's no picking and choosing here.
Can't, my team can't be transmuted.
3. I'd like to see some serious proof for that. Enchantress has transmuted Thor, the Executioner, and other asgardians who have natural defenses against transmutation as well. Either way, your team will literally be asleep and can be smashed by Absorbing Man and The Wrecking Crew or oneshotted by Enchantress' more offensive spells that she used to take down Vision and Hulk.
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Same thing with Higor, Cosmic awareness and all that counters invisibility and makes illusions useless.
4. Same thing with Higor, I want to see cosmic awareness work on magic. And then, prove you have more awareness than Heimdall and Odin himself.
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Oneshotting strategy with blitzing and gravity/hoover dam weight
5. Hate to break it to you, but 6.6 million tons is pretty weak compared to some of the people Absorbing Man and the Wrecking Crew have taken hits from. More famously, Hulk, Thor, Hercules, Beta Ray Bill, and Sentry. We know of Hulk's 150 billion ton mountain feat (and more), and Thor's planet busting feats, and Hercules' feats of strength. All are far above that kind of gravity and none have oneshotted any on my team so easily. Especially Absorbing Man being made of Wrecker's Crowbar material, as Thing has hurt his hand punching it.
Also...you can't see or perceive us in any way so the plan is moot.
As for your soul gem stuff...I got soul immunity. So that should be completely useless here.
Strategy Cont.
Just a reminder as said above, that should the plan not go as said (everyone being slept and transmuted and killed), Enchantress will not hesitate to...enchant the men on your team, turning them against you. Unless you're sporting better TP and TP defense than Red Onslaught, you're going down to that.
Summary
Magik can and will be affected by Enchantress's magic
Magik's teleporting will be blocked and countered by Enchantress and the Wrecking Crew
We won't be perceived by anyone here (much like with Odin and Heimdall)
Transmutations and Sleeping and Annihilation For everyone
If needed, Wrecking Crew smashes, Absorbing Man smashes and gains new powers from Soul Sword
Also if needed, Enchantress TP's every man and turns them against their team
Will just edit this in the OP but I'm now inclined to extend the length of the debate itself to 4 weeks/a month. Better to give everyone more time to finish their posts and extend the debate than currently.
@darkraiden: Sovereign's team has the transmutation immunity perk so that's why he said his team can't be transmuted. It is in the OP as one of his perks.
I don't feel particularly pleased with myself for doing this but I feel like the tourney should come to an end and Sovereign hasn't been online for 17 days so he's not coming back to respond any time soon. Thus, I'll overrule Sovereign's turn and reduce this to a one on one debate for the time being between @darkraiden and @higorm, which you two must be tired of by now. Sovereign's not fully eliminated yet but you two can just assume he is until I say otherwise or if Sov makes a comeback.
@higorm It's your turn to respond to DarkRaiden's post now.
0. The amount of people here doesn't matter. I have prep and will use it to hide my team from your and Sovereign's sight. You can try to seek me out, but it won't matter much since you'll be taken out while searching.
Well, your strategy remains impaired. Sov is out of the game so you can't just sit back and watch me fight him, even if he was still active you can possibily assume that heroes will fight heroes instead of villains.
1. This is 100% untrue. Well, 50% anyways. The soulsword DOES disrupt magic, but only once it touches said magic. You'd have to know exactly where I was through other means and THEN strike the spell/Enchantress without Enchantress simply teleporting and/or moving. Magik's been hit by well..magic before and the soul sword doesn't auto stop anything near her.
The fact is you can't affect someone who possess an anti-magic artifact plus the fact that she already faced and defeated Enchantress and if it's not enough, the team possess both prep time and detailed info, so I doubt your character can bring anything new to this battle that Magik can't counter. Further on this, Magik can teleport at any place she so desires so I don't see any trouble in this aspect.
2. This is leaving out a large part of the story. Enchantress defeated magic and had her tied up, toying with her, and torturing her. She even manifested Darkchild, had her under her control, turning all of the X-Men to Enchantress' side, and she was only defeated by Karma taking control of said X-Men and trying, but struggling to take control over Enchantress. And even then, Enchantress was proven to have anti-teleportation spells/wards which prevented Magik from taking her to limbo in the first place.
And even that was accomplished due to her being group attacked by the X-Men who had to go free Magik btw.
Magik still got the best of her in the end, and that was a very inexperienced version. Since then she learned sorcery for several sources, including a training with Dr. Strange. Not to mention that for this fight she possess previous knowledge about the enemy team and time to prepare against them, which means that she'll be able to accomplish the same feat as before but with less difficulty.
3. They also stomped Iron Fist. They also beat the Defenders (Hulk and Dr. Strange included), had Namor and Atlantis on the ropes, in water. Beat down a weakened Juggernaut, stomped Hercules so bad he had nightmares, were beating the Avengers enough to kidnap Monica and then were beating them again with her as a power source until overloaded.
Telepathy won't happen due to Enchantress. She's laughed off Professor X's telepathy and has controlled Red Onslaught.
Ice won't happen due to Iceman being put to sleep/transmuted. Also he can easily be drained by them and be left with no energy.
BFR won't happen due to Enchantress stopping it or just bringing them back. Also, Thunderball has literally retrieved Wrecker out of a different dimension before and Wrecker has shown the ability to teleport.
That's great but most of those feats were accomplished through raw strength, and as I said before, my team won't engage yours in a physical confrontation. Not to mention that some of those battles had context in it, I'm sure it's not like they beat them in a straight fight. About Enchantress, not sure how she will protect the entire team from a telepathic assault of Jean Grey level while dealing with Magik at the same time.
As for Iceman, can you show me an instance where Enchantress manage to transmute an elemental being like Iceman? Or how she will put to sleep someone that exists everywhere? I doubt she could tag him in the first place or identify the real one among countless ice clones that have their own consciousness. In addition, your team must first deal with the hazardous environment that Iceman created during prep time so you are not putting anyone into sleep because as soon as the battle starts you'll have to focus on your team protection otherwise everyone is turned into ice.
BFR is just one of the several options avaiable for my team to neutralize yours.
4. Absorbing Man takes the power of what he touches.
So he takes the power of what he touches. Soul Sword will be no different. And remember, at the start of battle, he's basically Wrecker's crowbar personified with Thunderball's wrecking ball to absorb/drain energy.
So do you expect Magik to stand still and let him touch her sword? How is he dealing with Iceman flash freezing in the first place? Or Jean Grey TK at the molecular level? Or Magik stepping discs that can cut him in half or just redirect his attacks back at your team?
5. This has been debunked in points 1 and 2, Enchantress' magic has literally already defeated Magik before. She's far from immune to spells in any way. Especially passive spells such as invisibility. To dispel anything she has to touch it with her sword.
And I'll show this while debunking Sovereign but, Enchantress' invisibility has worked on Heimdall and Odin. Magik has nothing on them as far as seeing through invisibility.
Oh and the Earth Golems are just for distraction. They'll keep Jean, Iceman, and Magik busy, as well as Sovereign's team. Even if only for a quick moment, which is all I need to sleep and transmute your team.
They did however seem to take a few hits from Hulk (Cho, not Banner) and can grow out of the ground seamlessly, surprising anyone on your team for a further distraction.
That was an entirely different scenario that you cannot exploit for this battle where my team holds the advantage from the start. Magik can use her magic in conjunction with her teleporting powers to avoid any kind of spell that may come from Enchantress. She can protect herself against her magic, especially now that she already knows how to defeat her.
Earth Golems are cannon fodder in this battle because Iceman can create his own army of ice clones to overwhelm the golems, keep in mind that those clones were able to subdue the Rulk so they should be able to handle them with ease. So the team won't be distracted at all.
The fact is you can't affect someone who possess an anti-magic artifact
This is entirely false. I showed it with Enchantress herself defeating Magik and affecting her with magic. Even more here are other examples:
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1-2, a weaponized ritual (magic) takes her out.
3. Scarlet Witch's chaos magic wounds her and takes her out.
4. Magic stops her from teleporting to Earth
5. Magic fire hurts her.
Magik never beat Enchantress on her own, she lacks the tools to beat her here.
she already faced and defeated Enchantress and if it's not enough, the team possess both prep time and detailed info, so I doubt your character can bring anything new to this battle that Magik can't counter. Further on this, Magik can teleport at any place she so desires so I don't see any trouble in this aspect.
This has been addressed and is false. When they fought, Enchantress won (and her magic affected Magik). Magik only won after:
1. Losing the initial fight.
2. Being tortured and turned into an infant after being trapped
3. Having her dark soul manifested and ripped out and used to gather/trap the other X-Men
4. Karma interfering with that
5. Karma temporarily interfering with Enchantress's minds making her take down teleportation wards that stopped Magik from teleporting at all
Magik didn't do much, Karma did. Magik doesn't have Karma here with her.
Just for reference if you try to say Jean can do something similar:
Enchantress laughed off Professor X's TP and sealed her and others' minds against him as she will Jean Grey.
Also unlike Karma, Jean will have other issues to worry about (Wrecker and Absorbing Man).
Magik still got the best of her in the end, and that was a very inexperienced version. Since then she learned sorcery for several sources, including a training with Dr. Strange. Not to mention that for this fight she possess previous knowledge about the enemy team and time to prepare against them, which means that she'll be able to accomplish the same feat as before but with less difficulty.
Incorrect. Magik needed tons of help to win. Learning from Strange hasn't given her any feats to be above Enchantress or any spells (on panel) to counter the spells used against her before.
Enchantress will easily enchant Iceman and sleep him. He has weak defenses against both.
As for Iceman, can you show me an instance where Enchantress manage to transmute an elemental being like Iceman? Or how she will put to sleep someone that exists everywhere?
Actually yes I can. It shouldn't actually matter given that she's transmuted gods, but here she is doing it to a water elemental (turning it into steam)
I want to know first, how Iceman having a more spread out consciousness helps him from being slept or controlled? Has this been shown to be a defense to TP? Or are you just assuming. I mean Red Onslaught was controlling the world and she easily enslaved him.
My team is invisible to yours due to Enchantress's spells/abilities. Thus Wrecking Crew and Absorbing Man will drain you of your energy and powers as Enchantress puts you to sleep and transmutes you. You have no defense to this which has affected Odin and Heimdall
So do you expect Magik to stand still and let him touch her sword? How is he dealing with Iceman flash freezing in the first place? Or Jean Grey TK at the molecular level? Or Magik stepping discs that can cut him in half or just redirect his attacks back at your team?
1. He's invisible to Magik. She won't be able to stop him from touching her sword.
2. He's made of Uru Metal at the time, which has withstood absolute zero (Thor's hammer)
3. Jean Grey has never shown the ability to molecularly TK something as strong and powerful as Wrecker's Crowbar
4. Again, he's also invisible to all of them.
Strategy
Mildly different.
1. As we're already invisible, you have no idea we're here. Enchantress takes this time to sleep your team.
2. If that doesn't win for w/e reason (incap), she transmutes them as well
3. The Wrecking Crew neutralize your team by the energy sapping and physically killing them (energy long range with Thunderball, others gang up and kill you)
4. Absorbing Man will be helping them attack, taking on the power of the Soul Sword, your team, and any energy/projectiles that are shot out, if any. He uses his current powers of Wrecker's crowbar and Thunderball's Wrecking Ball to KO and drain your team as well
5. Enchantress also can paralyze or bind your team or kill them like she did Hulk
Reminder: We'll be invisible so you won't see us and you'll be distracted by Earth Golems as well.
Extra: Can't imagine why, but if it were needed, Wrecker can cast illusions on your team and cause them to fight. It's worked on those with psychic powers before.
Summary
Magic DOES affect Magik, I've shown plenty of evidence to prove that
Thus we are invisible to your team via the cloaking spell (worked on Heimdall and Odin) and leave the Earth Golems to distract you
While invisible Enchantress sleeps you and transmutes your team (no resistance to this)
Wrecking Crew beats them up and energy saps (Thunderball's wrecking ball)
Absorbing Man does the same
Enchantress can also kill, paralyze or bind them
Wrecker can make them fight with illusions
All while you're fighting...Earth Golems and not even knowing we're there
Other things to remember
Enchantress already beat Magik
Enchantress can affect elementals like Iceman
Enchantress can laugh of Professor X's (planet level ) TP
Enchantress easily enslaved Red Onslaught and will do the same to Iceman
Overall we win. We can't be seen or perceived by your team. This gives us free reign to take you out and it happens in seconds while you're distracted.
This is entirely false. I showed it with Enchantress herself defeating Magik and affecting her with magic. Even more here are other examples:
Enchantress was able to affect Magik with her magic? Yes. There was any context behind that confrontation? Of course!
The was a younger and inexperienced Magik.
She was not even wearing the Eldrich Armor or wielding the Soulsword.
The reason behind it was because Loki ordered Enchantress to kidnap Storm and the X-Men, but Storm was with another group, the New Mutants, and among them was Magik, who were all enjoying a break on the Greek isle of Kirinos, that's why Illyana was wearing a bikini, which means they got caught by a surprise attack when they were all distracted.
For this fight, Magik possess both the Eldrich Armor and Soulsword, have prior knowledge about the enemy and have prepared herself against someone she has faced before.
The team would all have died if not for Magik that was still able to use her powers to separate the team across all the nine worlds.
That's why is important to have some context attached to feats so we can see the whole picture. The thing is, I'm not saying Magik is immune to magic, I'm saying that Enchantress doesn't have what it takes to replicate the same feat here, considering she had to resort to a cheap move (surprise-attack a girl that was wearing a bikini in the beach) to accomplish her goals. How do you expect me to believe she will be able to affect Magik if she already knows the enemy, knows how to defeat the enemy and had time to prepare against her?
That's why the most logical thing to happen is this:
Enchantress being teleported to Limbo, powerless and imprisoned.
Now let's see your other "examples":
1-2, a weaponized ritual (magic) takes her out.
3. Scarlet Witch's chaos magic wounds her and takes her out.
4. Magic stops her from teleporting to Earth
5. Magic fire hurts her.
1-2: That was a specific weapon designed to affect Magik with blood of Elzebus and parchment of souls, your character doesn't possess any of those. Not to mention they had detailed info about Magik and enough time to prepare it against her, again, something your team doesn't have here. Basically it's a plot device weapon made up of specific items which combined science and magic.
3: That's Scarlet Witch you are talking about, her powers works in a different entirely way from what Enchantress has ever displayed. Wanda is someone who can warp reality and adjust probability to her will, she's on a whole different level.
4: Do you read your own scans? Magik was still able to teleport not only herself but the others too.
5: That was DORMAMMU! What dou you expect to happen? And once again you post out of context scans to TRY to prove your point, here's the WHOLE fight:
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Magik's magic is so powerfull that not even Silver Surfer can deal with it, as you can see here.
This has been addressed and is false. When they fought, Enchantress won (and her magic affected Magik). Magik only won after:
1. Losing the initial fight.
2. Being tortured and turned into an infant after being trapped
3. Having her dark soul manifested and ripped out and used to gather/trap the other X-Men
4. Karma interfering with that
5. Karma temporarily interfering with Enchantress's minds making her take down teleportation wards that stopped Magik from teleporting at all
Magik didn't do much, Karma did. Magik doesn't have Karma here with her.
They never fought, stop distorting reality. Enchantress never faced Magik in a direct confrontation, all she did was kidnap her alongside the New Mutants and Storm as she was told to do by Loki. Magik never had a chance to defend herself, she wasn't ready for a battle, she was wearing bikini for god sakes! Actually, the moment that Illyana was able to strike back the fight ended pretty quickly with Amora being neutralized in limbo, that's what really happened. Also, Magik was still able to teleport the others across Asgard, he couldn't only teleport herself.
Just for reference if you try to say Jean can do something similar:
I'd say that Jean Grey is leagues above Karma and can do much better than she did.
Incorrect. Magik needed tons of help to win. Learning from Strange hasn't given her any feats to be above Enchantress or any spells (on panel) to counter the spells used against her before.
The fact that you are lowballing Magik won't change the fact that she has developed her powers/skills in magic to the point of being able to destroy the connection between Colossus and the Cyttorak. I've already presented Silver Surfer claiming how powerfull her magic is, and also kill Legion's personalities in his mind:
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Enchantress will easily enchant Iceman and sleep him. He has weak defenses against both.
I highly doubt she's able to do that to someone like Iceman in a scenario that he possess both previous knowledge about her and preparation time. Can you show me such weak defenses?
Actually yes I can. It shouldn't actually matter given that she's transmuted gods, but here she is doing it to a water elemental (turning it into steam)
Again with those out of context scans. Wow!, That really proves everything. So since Enchantress transmuted a water elemental (who?) now she can do the same to the omega level mutant Iceman, who possess omnipresence and exists everywhere, how is she tagging him again?
I want to know first, how Iceman having a more spread out consciousness helps him from being slept or controlled? Has this been shown to be a defense to TP? Or are you just assuming. I mean Red Onslaught was controlling the world and she easily enslaved him.
How can she tag him in the first place? How can she deal with a flash freezing? How can she stop him freezing the flow of blood in her brains? I'm assuming? You just said Iceman has weakness against "enchant" and "sleep", why don't you show me those? Iceman dealt with two powerfull telepaths (Legion and Emma Frost) in the past and was able to flash freeze them with ease:
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My team is invisible to yours due to Enchantress's spells/abilities. Thus Wrecking Crew and Absorbing Man will drain you of your energy and powers as Enchantress puts you to sleep and transmutes you. You have no defense to this which has affected Odin and Heimdall
That's great, my team is also invisible. Jean Grey can still mind scan them or Iceman being able to track them through their heat signatures, since he's omnipresence now, doesn't matter if you are invisible or not, he can still manipulate things like the moisture in the air, there's not scaping for someone like him. Enchantress powers would mean something if this was a RANDOM ENCOUNTER, but as it is my team is FULLY AWARE of her tricks and had an entire day to prepare against it.
1. He's invisible to Magik. She won't be able to stop him from touching her sword.
2. He's made of Uru Metal at the time, which has withstood absolute zero (Thor's hammer)
3. Jean Grey has never shown the ability to molecularly TK something as strong and powerful as Wrecker's Crowbar
4. Again, he's also invisible to all of them.
1. The same can be said about my team, that's just stupid logic, I've already presented an answer to this.
2. Thor's hammer didn't stopped him from being neutralized and almost killed by Iceman if wasn't for his ex-girlfriend appeal.
3. She doesn't need to, she just need to affect their bodies or keep them busy long enough.
4. This just means your team will be strike down with ease with the illusion of being invisible, not knowing about Iceman capability to find them all and flash freeze them do death.
Bottom line, 1 day for prep and full knowledge on the enemy team makes all the difference and it's what gives my team the win since the start with one step ahead of the enemy, holding the initial advantage until the end. Enchantress never faced a serious Magik, prepared for battle with previous knowledge about the enemy, nor a elemental being as powerfull as Iceman who can turn the battlefield into an ice age where the enemy have to deal with from the beginning before trying anything else, Jean is there to assure the win with her TK/TP of the highest order.
Magik can't counter Enchantress' spells because she doesn't know she's there and can't make contact with said spells with her sword
Enchantress was able to affect Magik with her magic? Yes. There was any context behind that confrontation? Of course!
The was a younger and inexperienced Magik.
She was not even wearing the Eldrich Armor or wielding the Soulsword.
The reason behind it was because Loki ordered Enchantress to kidnap Storm and the X-Men, but Storm was with another group, the New Mutants, and among them was Magik, who were all enjoying a break on the Greek isle of Kirinos, that's why Illyana was wearing a bikini, which means they got caught by a surprise attack when they were all distracted.
For this fight, Magik possess both the Eldrich Armor and Soulsword, have prior knowledge about the enemy and have prepared herself against someone she has faced before.
The team would all have died if not for Magik that was still able to use her powers to separate the team across all the nine worlds.
That's why is important to have some context attached to feats so we can see the whole picture. The thing is, I'm not saying Magik is immune to magic, I'm saying that Enchantress doesn't have what it takes to replicate the same feat here, considering she had to resort to a cheap move (surprise-attack a girl that was wearing a bikini in the beach) to accomplish her goals. How do you expect me to believe she will be able to affect Magik if she already knows the enemy, knows how to defeat the enemy and had time to prepare against her?
1. Yes and that context is the same here. Magik doesn't know Enchantress is here, it is a surprise attack due to my invisibility spell. She only sees the Earth Golems.The Soulsword helps, but it does not make her immune to magic nor does it help her detect magic in this case, as I have shown.
You did, by the way say magic won't work on Magik.
1. Spell doesn't work on my team because Magik is the personification of anti-magic.
That's an exact quote from your first post since Sovereign stopped responding.
2. Magik doesn't have Karma here. That is the only thing that allowed her to defeat Enchantress last time. Extra knowledge won't actually help her here unless she's suddenly above Odin.
Other magic affecting Magik
1-2: That was a specific weapon designed to affect Magik with blood of Elzebus and parchment of souls, your character doesn't possess any of those. Not to mention they had detailed info about Magik and enough time to prepare it against her, again, something your team doesn't have here. Basically it's a plot device weapon made up of specific items which combined science and magic.
3: That's Scarlet Witch you are talking about, her powers works in a different entirely way from what Enchantress has ever displayed. Wanda is someone who can warp reality and adjust probability to her will, she's on a whole different level.
4: Do you read your own scans? Magik was still able to teleport not only herself but the others too.
All of those were in response to you saying that spells don't affect Magik. I simply showed that they do. Also,
3. Scarlet Witch used Chaos Magic not her probability. And she can't warp reality unless she has Doom's Life Force he gave her. It was specifically stated in that storyline that it was Chaos Magic.
4. Did you? It's specifically stated that magic stopped her from teleporting to earth not period. It shows that magic affected her despite having her soul sword and armor, just like the other examples.
Dormmamu and Silver Surfer
There was nothing posted out of context. I only showed that magic hurt her not that she lost. Silver Surfer is fine, but Enchantress hit above his paygrade with Odin.
Jean Grey's below Professor X, Onslaught, and Odin, and thus not affecting Enchantress at all
I'd say that Jean Grey is leagues above Karma and can do much better than she did.
And yet she's leagues below Red Onslaught and Professor X. She won't be messing with Enchantress's mind. Also note, Enchantress is invisible to her as she was to Odin (who's also above her in TP)
Magik isn't above Enchantress in magic power
The fact that you are lowballing Magik won't change the fact that she has developed her powers/skills in magic to the point of being able to destroy the connection between Colossus and the Cyttorak. I've already presented Silver Surfer claiming how powerfull her magic is, and also kill Legion's personalities in his mind:
No one's lowballing her at all. She's just not as strong as Enchantress. Destroying the Cyttorak connection is her soulsword and an anti-magic feat, but she had to physically cut him. In this case that's impossible given she can't perceive us. And as far as impressive feats, Enchantress has:
1. Manipulated Yggdrasil and had all of Asgard in peril
2. Let out power/a scream that affected gods and crossed the galaxy
3. Hid herself from Odin
4. Summoned all of the dead in Asgard
5. Nearly stalemated Karnilla the Norn Queen (until she got distracted)
6. Escaped from Nightmare and defeated him in his own realm
7. Oneshotted the Hulk
And might I add, Mjolnir was also able to temporarily cut off Juggernaut from Cyttorak, so it's not a super magical feat.
I highly doubt she's able to do that to someone like Iceman in a scenario that he possess both previous knowledge about her and preparation time. Can you show me such weak defenses?
How can she tag him in the first place? How can she deal with a flash freezing? How can she stop him freezing the flow of blood in her brains? I'm assuming? You just said Iceman has weakness against "enchant" and "sleep", why don't you show me those? Iceman dealt with two powerfull telepaths (Legion and Emma Frost) in the past and was able to flash freeze them with ease:
Iceman is here, being possessed/controlled by Emma Frost and being shown and illusion by her.
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And that second scan happens AFTER he so-called 'easily flash froze her'. She let him and was teaching him a lesson about controlling his powers and could still telepathically control him as shown.
As for Legion...Iceman literally falls to telepathy RIGHT after freezing him. And as for context, Legion was busy ignoring the X-Men and focusing on killing Magneto. So Iceman basically jumped him and STILL got stomped.
That's great, my team is also invisible. Jean Grey can still mind scan them or Iceman being able to track them through their heat signatures, since he's omnipresence now, doesn't matter if you are invisible or not, he can still manipulate things like the moisture in the air, there's not scaping for someone like him. Enchantress powers would mean something if this was a RANDOM ENCOUNTER, but as it is my team is FULLY AWARE of her tricks and had an entire day to prepare against it.
Your team isn't invisible to mine. Enchantress sees right through telepathy as shown with Professor X and Onslaught. And she can share vision so...we still stomp you. Also I've shown her boiling water, meaning she can do the same to ice (heat it up).
Enchantress sharing vision
Counter-Summary
1. The same can be said about my team, that's just stupid logic, I've already presented an answer to this.
2. Thor's hammer didn't stopped him from being neutralized and almost killed by Iceman if wasn't for his ex-girlfriend appeal.
3. She doesn't need to, she just need to affect their bodies or keep them busy long enough.
4. This just means your team will be strike down with ease with the illusion of being invisible, not knowing about Iceman capability to find them all and flash freeze them do death.
1. Not true. I've shown Enchantress use her invisibility to hide from better telepaths, magic users, and more powerful people than your team. I've also shown Iceman being vulnerable to TP and illusions.
2. Thor's hammer wasn't frozen though. That's the important part. Absorbing Man is made of that material.
3. Jean's TK can't even affect Absorbing Man based on the material he's made of. With us being invisible, and her having to fight off sleep, transmutation, Earth Golems, other magic spells, AND the Wrecking Crew all at once means she'll fall with ease
4. Iceman can't find us due to his vulnerability to TP. He also can't freeze Absorbing Man or Enchantress. Wrecking Crew can just teleport out of it or possibly tank it given Thor did just fine and they're made from his power.
Closing Summary
Enchantress's invisibility spell makes it so your team cannot perceive us in any way. It worked on Odin and Heimdall, who have both TP and super sight/senses (Odin has both, Heimdall has the super senses)
Full Knowledge of Enchantress's abilities don't help you to find her because of this, leaving you at a huge disadvantage
Iceman is handled by sleep, being enchanted/TP'd, or being transmuted or energy drained. He's proven to be vulnerable to TP and Enchantress excels at it
Jean is handled by the same given Enchantress has countered stronger TP and has the ability to transmute, bind, or kill her a she's done to stronger foes. Wrecking Crew and Absorbing Man can also simply kill her.
Magik is handled by sleep, transmutation, energy drain, etc. She can break magic, but only by contact with her sword. We're invisible and she has no idea where we are so she can't do much here. Also Wrecking Crew and Absorbing Man take her down as well
And all of this happens while your team is distracted by Earth Golems that took hits from Hulk. Whether you take time to make ice clones or to try to TK them or slash them down with the Soulsword, this leaves you open to being attacked by my team and KO'd instantly
We win due to various abilities your team has no answer to and due to being completely invisible and perceivable by your team.
Add on that Absorbing Man is made of Wrecker's crowbar which gives him illusion abilities, super strength and durability, teleporting powers, etc. and that Wrecker has the same powers. Also we can drain your energy via Thunderball's wrecking ball (which is also attached to Absorbing Man)
@lvenger: Sure, but my knowledge is kind of limited in regard of these characters except for Sovereign's team, maybe I'll do some digging then I'll vote.
@lvenger: @darkraiden: @higorm: Close one, but I'm going with DarkRaiden. Even though he failed on some fronts, he (to me) successfully proved that Enchantress would TP the team based on the Red Onslaught showing, the Iceman showing (of Emma still taking him despite Enchantress having better feats), the Xavier showing, etc.
He also proved to me that Enchantress could hide from the team better than Magik could hide her own.
However, he barely takes this, as he failed on the argument of Enchantress > Magik based on that fight, however with the fact that Enchantress would be using stealth I bought it.
Both sides failed on the Iceman argument imo. Hig failed to properly counter him resisting or avoiding TP, and DR failed to show that he could be melted, but the TP argument sufficed and as a result, he takes the debate for me.
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