Should Obama create new Gun Laws?

@pooty: You're not taking my entire arguments into consideration, you're picking little parts of them to reply to. You ignored 75% of my post at least. I don't feel that I should respond to you because you didn't even read and respond to mine fully.

@minigunman123: the only part i ignored was the part about accidental death. but if that long reply i did is not enough....so be it

@Vaeternus: Again, I was using it as an example...I didn't say "every time you go to a movie theater you're likely to get shot at." But fine...if you want to see an example as an exaggeration...you go ahead. It doesn't really matter.

You think a guy could walk into a theatre and kill 12 people and wound 58 more with just a knife? You can run away from a man with a knife...you can't outrun a bullet. A man with a knife has to get in close to kill you with it...and in that situation you have a much better chance of defending yourself or having someone else defend you. Guns have a way of giving courage to cowards.

This argument of "people will just find other ways to kill" is just silly. Look at other countries that have gun control instituted and see how many Rampage Stabbers they get. Murder rates go down with gun control. Canada and the US are very similar countries...yet we have a much lower murder rate here. People didn't just start grabbing knives and building bombs here after gun control was instituted...what makes the US different? Are you saying that Americans are just naturally more violent than Canadians? I don't believe that's true.

Again: take a look at this list of Rampage Killers in the Americas...Look how many of them involved Firearms, look how many of them happened in the US. There are 116 Spree killers on that list. Count how many happened in the US. About 90 of them were from America...and most of them used guns. The rest of North and South America Combined has 27. in the last 10 years there have been 19 rampages in the Americas...17 were from the US. 16 of those used guns. 134 Americans were killed by these rampage killers. Most of them from gunshot wounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Americas

Not "every time" but you implied it with your concern for your American friends hinting that each time you go to a movie you can get shot...as if it happens often, just because this one incident happened but whatever.

Yes, actually I do...why? Well, what if he or she is a trained killer or assassin? I wouldn't put it out of the realm of impossible. They could throw throwing knives, run around stabbing people(not necessarily kill but injure)You can run away from a bullet too or duck, harder? yes but possible. Note, not outrun just run away or dodge it. Guns have a way of giving hope towards heroes too. Without guns, how many deaths have been prevented? People rescued in hostage gigs? You're only posting the negatives, whatever about the positives?

I don't know who's more violent, I think it's around the world but you guys also have pot legal, pot makes people more mellow and lazy so perhaps that's supressing aggression? I don't know...I'm sure you'll find all kinds of studies based on how a country lives. America has the highest % of obesity for example, yet fast food chains are all over.

I get that really, but again I'm telling you if you read those links I posted pages ago you'd see between histories most known killers you have literally hundreds if not near a thousand fatalities due without a gun...You're listing past 10 years, what about historically speaking? Did people not kill others prior to guns being invented?

@pooty: Yes. there are exceptions to that rule but guns and microchips are not them.

If you are so willing to be subjugated for the sake of safety, I am wondering where you do draw the line? How much freedom could be taken away before you would say, “Hey, now. I need some freedom?”

I don't consider making colonies and expecting them to follow rules as being slavery. England gave you what was needed to get there and to establish yourself. They paid the cost to be the boss. Nevertheless, if it were slavery like how the Egyptians did the jews or how whites did to blacks..... i would absolutely 100% fight to my death.

If the government is a dictatorship, how is that different than slavery in your mind?

they would stab, strangle etc. i agree. but no legal weapon is as quick, efficient or undefendable as gun. thats why people choose guns to kill more than every other method combined.

Guns are extremely effective at killing. No doubt about that, but if we got rid of all the guns, people would probably start using bow and arrows, so we would have to ban those…and then knives…then fists…we should probably just amputate people’s hands. It would be much safer that way.

I said "to harm". what is another use for a gun?

Fun. All my friends shoot, and none of them have ever harmed another person with them. They are also good for eliminating varmints (which, yes, involves harming them). Heck, we’ve used them to get things out of trees by shooting away the limbs.

Oh, and there is the main reason of having them…defense against criminals and the government. You know that if you make guns illegal, only the criminals will have guns, right? That would only empower the boldness of criminals to commit more crimes without chance of retribution.

as said, your friends can keep their guns but something has to be done to keep them out of the hands of the 13,000+ who use them to kill every year and that number is nothing compared to the tens of thousands of injuries they cause.

There is nothing that can be done to take guns out of the hands of bad guys which would not limit the freedom of good guys.

@PsychoKnights: If you are so willing to be subjugated for the sake of safety, I am wondering where you do draw the line? How much freedom could be taken away before you would say, “Hey, now. I need some freedom?

I don't see a chip as being subjugated. will that chip bend me to it's will? Will it control my mind? It will keep track of my medical records. Until it is PROVEN that it will be used for "evil", it's just the imagination of paranoid people.

If the government is a dictatorship,

What do you think the USA is now? Did you have a say in whether you pay taxes or not? Do you have a say about when to go to war? Your vote doesn't even count because of the electoral college. You vote every 4 years. Do you know how many decisions are made in that amount of time that you have NO SAY IN? A few select people dictate what the masses do. It's England all over again.

how is that different than slavery in your mind

I can leave whenever I want.

but if we got rid of all the guns, people would probably start using bow and arrows, so we would have to ban those

Like gang members, drug addicts, thugs will become proficient in archery. Not gonna happen. Guns give cowards power and courage. If you take away the guns, many people who commit crimes would be too scared to commit crimes. Crime would still happen but i can defend myself against a knife or axe much better than against a gun.

Fun. All my friends shoot, and none of them have ever harmed another person with them.

If guns were just used for "fun" that would be great. But they were not invented for "fun" and many times they are not used for "fun".

There is nothing that can be done to take guns out of the hands of bad guys which would not limit the freedom of good guys

If they are "good guys" they should have no problem putting lives ahead of gun freedom. If they are "good guys" they will sacrifice their freedom to save the lives of others. Good guys make sacrifices. we call them heroes.

@pooty: I don't see a chip as being subjugated. will that chip bend me to it's will? Will it control my mind? It will keep track of my medical records. Until it is PROVEN that it will be used for "evil", it's just the imagination of paranoid people.

You already said you were willing to give up most freedoms for the sake of safety. In the case of your chip, you are willing to sacrifice privacy in order to allow the government to monitor your every move. If I insisted that you allow me to put a tracker on you or go to prison, wouldn’t you say I am trying to subjugate you?

I’m not sure what chip you are talking about. If you want to chip yourself with medical records, have at it. Just don’t insist that I should have to have one. The chip I talked of would track you at all times stripping you of your right to privacy. I believe that taking freedoms away from law abiding citizens is inherently evil.

What do you think the USA is now? Did you have a say in whether you pay taxes or not? Do you have a say about when to go to war? Your vote doesn't even count because of the electoral college. You vote every 4 years. Do you know how many decisions are made in that amount of time that you have NO SAY IN? A few select people dictate what the masses do. It's England all over again.

You deflected the question. I’m not going to take the time to give you a good response until you give me one. You said you are against slavery, yet you seem to be happy with giving the government unlimited amounts of control. What is the difference in a totalitarian political regime which can tell you what to do and slavery?

Like gang members, drug addicts, thugs will become proficient in archery. Not gonna happen. Guns give cowards power and courage. If you take away the guns, many people who commit crimes would be too scared to commit crimes. Crime would still happen but i can defend myself against a knife or axe much better than against a gun.

Yes, I’m sure thugs could learn to shoot a bow and arrow.

You might be able to defend yourself better, but what about the young, the old, and the female? They are much more susceptible in a world where knives and fists are the only weapons. The gun is the great equalizer in terms of self defense.

All of this is off point of course because the real issue is that freedom should not be taken away except in the most dire of circumstances.

If guns were just used for "fun" that would be great. But they were not invented for "fun" and many times they are not used for "fun".

Constantly. Where do you live? There was a gun show at my work just the other day wherein hundreds of guns were bought, sold, and no doubt uses, yet there has been no uptick in killing. You’ve bought into the ludicrous idea that guns are somehow inherently bad. They are just a tool. Nothing more.

If they are "good guys" they should have no problem putting lives ahead of gun freedom. If they are "good guys" they will sacrifice their freedom to save the lives of others. Good guys make sacrifices. we call them heroes.

Nonsense. You could use the same reasoning for forced labor camps. If you are really a good citizen, you wouldn’t mind helping your country with free labor.

If complete fascism ever comes to the United States, it will come through people like you who are only asking you to give up your freedoms for the greater good. Fascism with a smiley face.

@PsychoKnights:

In the case of your chip, you are willing to sacrifice privacy in order to allow the government to monitor your every move.

The chip being discussed keeps track of medical records. That all it does. Paranoid people seem to think they will use it to monitor your every move. There is no proof of that. and no reason for them to want to either. what reason would the government have to want to track our every movement? it makes no sense.

If I insisted that you allow me to put a tracker on you or go to prison, wouldn’t you say I am trying to subjugate you?

again that is not what the chip does and no proof it can or will be used for tracking.

You said you are against slavery, yet you seem to be happy with giving the government unlimited amounts of control.

Did I not say there are limits to what I will allow? Don't twist or insinuate i said "unlimited control". I said a chip with medical records is fine. a chip that can help find missing people or escaped convicts is fine and amending the gun laws is fine. Nothing "unlimited" about that.

What is the difference in a totalitarian political regime which can tell you what to do and slavery

I can work when and how I want. I can live where I want. I can leave any time i want. I can do what i please in my spare time within reason. I can start my own business. I can start a family. own pets. travel the world etc. USA putting a medical chip or adding gun laws will change none of those things. Even with a chip or added gun laws america is still one of the most "free-to-do-what-you-want" countries in the world. People acting like a couple minor changes is equivalent to Stalin taking over

Yes, I’m sure thugs could learn to shoot a bow and arrow.

I just read on the news "A gang member did a drive by with a bow and arrow." let's get real

You might be able to defend yourself better, but what about the young, the old, and the female

So would the young, old and female. if you come at them with a knife and they have mace or a taser or even a knife. they have a good chance to survive.

The gun is the great equalizer in terms of self defense.

Guns kill too fast. the attacker with the gun has the advantage over a victim with a gun. The attacker already knows what he wants to do and is prepared. by the time the victim pulls their gun out they are dead.

All of this is off point of course because the real issue is that freedom should not be taken away except in the most dire of circumstances.

disagree. freedom to have a gun is not important as preventing the thousands of deaths caused by them

If you are really a good citizen, you wouldn’t mind helping your country with free labor.

I happily pay taxes and toll fees. and you are going very extreme with your comparisons. free labor does not equal a medical chip. You act like if they take one freedom away(that shouldn't have been there in the first place) then they will abolish the constitution altogether. I don't know where you live, but the U.S is pretty good to me

it will come through people like you who are only asking you to give up your freedoms for the greater good.

Any person who would not give up a few freedoms for the greater good is a selfish,spoiled, ungodly prick. I appreciate that you can tell I would do my part for the greater good.

@Vaeternus: Yeah ok..Trained assassins might be able to do what James Holmes did with a knife...maybe..except James Holmes wasn't a trained assassin was he? no...he was just a guy with some guns...Killing sprees like this typically aren't done by "Trained Assassins" so your whole point is meaningless.

Big revelation...over the course of tens of thousands of years of human history...more people have been killed by other means than by firearms. Except, we didn't have firearms for most of that history so it's a completely useless argument. My stats come from this century,.and in this century...more people are murdered by firearms than any other weapon. .

The chip being discussed keeps track of medical records. That all it does. Paranoid people seem to think they will use it to monitor your every move. There is no proof of that. and no reason for them to want to either. what reason would the government have to want to track our every movement? it makes no sense.

I was talking about the chip I mentioned which would track your every movement for the sake of preventing crimes and catching criminals. You never said you had a problem with that idea, so when you defended the chip idea, I figured that was the chip you were defending. You can put a chip in yourself all you want. Just don’t insist that I have to have one too.

again that is not what the chip does and no proof it can or will be used for tracking.

It seems we are talking about different chips.

Did I not say there are limits to what I will allow? Don't twist or insinuate i said "unlimited control". I said a chip with medical records is fine. a chip that can help find missing people or escaped convicts is fine and amending the gun laws is fine. Nothing "unlimited" about that.

The only think I recall you saying is too much government control is slavery. I’m asking you to define, as specifically as you can, where the line is between acceptable and too much government control.

How are you planning on finding missing people with a chip unless the government has chips tracking everyone?

I can work when and how I want.

The average American spends a third of the year working for the government, not for himself. There are laws that dictate how much someone can work. There are all sorts of bullcrap licenses you have to have before getting employed in certain fields. My girlfriend has to pay two hundred bucks so she can be licensed to cut hair. So…not really.

I can live where I want.

Actually, there are more and more regulations on where you can and cannot live. The environmental protection agency leads the charge on that one. There are actually laws on the books that say you cannot live in animal migration routes…which would cover pretty much everywhere except cities. Of course those laws are not often enforced…thus far.

I can leave any time i want.

Leave where?

I can do what i please in my spare time within reason.

Within the a Washington bureaucrats definition of what is reasonable. It certainly wouldn’t be reasonable for you to shoot for fun for instance…or hunt…or donate food to the poor…or smoke pot…or light a cigarette with a lighter shaped like a cartoon figure…or this list could go on forever…

I can start my own business.

If you are willing to spend even more time working for the government and have a lawyer or three to help you cut through all the red tape.

I can start a family.

So far, but you can hear nutballs already talking about how we need to limit the number of children a family can have.

own pets.

Depends on what kind of pet you want.

travel the world etc.

If you have proper documentation (though I don’t actually think this one is unreasonable).

My point is the government already regulates many, many aspect of our lives, and Constitutionally speaking, they haven’t the right. If you believe in the rule of law, then the government has no right to do 90% of the things they do.

USA putting a medical chip or adding gun laws will change none of those things. Even with a chip or added gun laws america is still one of the most "free-to-do-what-you-want" countries in the world.

Are you talking about individuals choosing to have medical chips or the government insisting that everyone take medical chips because those two ideas are worlds apart.

America might still be one of the most liberated countries in the world. I would like to keep her that way. The government already has way more power than the Constitution allows. No more!

People acting like a couple minor changes is equivalent to Stalin taking over

Stalin is known as being a totalitarian ruler who held control over the populace. The main difference between Stalin’s Communism and American Progressivism is that Stalin favored revolutionary change which gave all the power to the government quickly and enforced it with bullets and Progressives favor gradual change which gives all control to the government slowly and enforces it with fees and jail time.

I just read on the news "A gang member did a drive by with a bow and arrow." let's get real

I just read all the history books, and I apologize for my mistake. Before guns were invented, no bad person ever used a bow and arrow to commit a crime. My mistake.

So would the young, old and female. if you come at them with a knife and they have mace or a taser or even a knife. they have a good chance to survive.

Who is to say that the criminal doesn’t have mace or a tazer, and would you rather have a good chance or a great chance of surviving? Just admit, guns give the physically weak a better chance of surviving a violent encounter. There is no argument against this. Prove you are reasonable and admit I’m right on this point.

The gun is the great equalizer in terms of self defense.

Guns kill too fast. the attacker with the gun has the advantage over a victim with a gun. The attacker already knows what he wants to do and is prepared. by the time the victim pulls their gun out they are dead.

The same could be said with a knife.

Guns do not always kill quickly. I can give you studies that show that criminals are much less likely to act if they think the potential victim is armed. If someone shot me, you better believe I would like the chance to kill them right back.

disagree. freedom to have a gun is not important as preventing the thousands of deaths caused by them

Well, it is in the Constitution, so you have to get over it until the Constitution is amended, but again, if you are willing to sacrifice freedom for security, why not just track people at all times? Also, look at Swtizerland. Everyone in Switzerland is armed, and they only had thirty-four gun related crimes in 2006. Gun ownership does not equate to gun violence. Can you not admit that?

I happily pay taxes and toll fees. and you are going very extreme with your comparisons. free labor does not equal a medical chip. You act like if they take one freedom away(that shouldn't have been there in the first place) then they will abolish the constitution altogether. I don't know where you live, but the U.S is pretty good to me

Again, I’m not sure what your exact stance on the medical chip thing is, so we will wait a minute before getting into that.

As far as the Second Amendment being stupid, I’m guessing you have no idea what it is even about. Can you tell me the point of the second amendment?

Any person who would not give up a few freedoms for the greater good is a selfish,spoiled, ungodly prick. I appreciate that you can tell I would do my part for the greater good.

You do realize that “the greater good” is a concept which has been exploited for horrible acts a million times over?

Here is a quote on the greater good by one of evil peoples’ favorite philospophers, Karl Marx.

“History calls those men the greatest who have ennobled themselves by working for the common good; experience acclaims as happiest the man who has made the greatest number of people happy.”

Let’s look at Hitler’s concept of the greater good. He believed that he was helping evolution by eliminating inferior races. He convinced the Germans it would be for the greater good if we just got rid of all those retarded and crippled people.

The Catholic Church thought it would be for the greater good to kill of the heathen people of the Middle East…not to mention all the other believers who did not fit into their tiny world view.

President Clinton thought it would be for the greater good of the country’s integrity if he could deny his sexual affair.

George W. Bush thought it would be for the greater good if we could fight terrorism by locking up certain U.S. citizens without trial and access phone conversation and e-mails without a pre-existing warrant.

Barack Obama thought it would be for the greater good to mandate that everybody buy healthcare or be locked up.

I could go on, but why bother?

@PsychoKnights: you believe in rights and freedoms even at the expense of life. I believe in preserving life even at the expense of freedom and rights. so be it.

@pooty said:

@PsychoKnights: you believe in rights and freedoms even at the expense of life. I believe in preserving life even at the expense of freedom and rights. so be it.

Thou fiend! Thou didst lure me into battle and then fled in retreat when thou beheld the might of my mental formations. Thou dost not only tempt the wrath of Libertarian Man in this act by defrauding me of a victory, but thou dost also wasteth my time I spent in mental contrivances in attempt to set right thy befuddled world view! Surely thou dost betray thy inability to do battle in the field of idea by retreating from my jabs. Libertarian hast beheld such strategy before, and I suppose I must rest content in this as a victory.

In all seriousness though, that is a pretty good summary of our differing views.

@Shawnbab, Yeah well hey you asked lol. Why isn't or couldn't it be possible for highly trained assassins to do something like that? Are you aware that a boxer for example is very dangerous and his fist is considered a deadly weapon if he goes around punching people in the face, he could only kill them....but who cares right? lol I love it how you're constantly bringing up killers or murders that use just guns, do you not want to see that people murdered each other without guns and long before guns a lot still? It's not meaningless, it's a logical point which you wish to ignore. I can't help you there. Because again I can list you more links backing my claims of people killing others without guns...you act as if that's the only "deadly" weapon on Earth.

News flash, while more people killed each other years ago with more primitive weapons. It's still done today without the use of guns...you must know check out the news a lot with murders daily or you have selective reading with anything that has gun in it. It's not a useless argument, you're just being biased now thinking guns are the only thing exclusively that kill people. Wrong, guns don't kill people. People kill people. People hve killed with other weapons, not just guns..

@Vaeternus said:

@Shawnbab, Yeah well hey you asked lol. Why isn't or couldn't it be possible for highly trained assassins to do something like that? Are you aware that a boxer for example is very dangerous and his fist is considered a deadly weapon if he goes around punching people in the face, he could only kill them....but who cares right? lol I love it how you're constantly bringing up killers or murders that use just guns, do you not want to see that people murdered each other without guns and long before guns a lot still? It's not meaningless, it's a logical point which you wish to ignore. I can't help you there. Because again I can list you more links backing my claims of people killing others without guns...you act as if that's the only "deadly" weapon on Earth.

News flash, while more people killed each other years ago with more primitive weapons. It's still done today without the use of guns...you must know check out the news a lot with murders daily or you have selective reading with anything that has gun in it. It's not a useless argument, you're just being biased now thinking guns are the only thing exclusively that kill people. Wrong, guns don't kill people. People kill people. People hve killed with other weapons, not just guns..

I didn't say it was impossible...just more difficult. When a person starts stabbing other people most people will start running...and its a lot harder to stab 70 people while they are all running away from you. Yeah...you can throw your knife...and then you are without your weapon...at which point you can expect to get murderstomped by anyone in your general vicinity. And you are talking about people that are highly trained (knife-fighters and boxers) they didn't just walk to a store and walk out with the ability to kill a dozen people...they trained for years. James Holmes, with no training at all, just walked into a store and bought everything he needed to kill a dozen people and wound 58 more. When was the last time you heard about someone going on a murder spree with a knife or his fists? How often do you think their kill count goes up into the double digits. I've never denied that there are other ways of killing people...but guns make it easy. Without guns James Holmes may never have been a threat to anyone at all. Maybe he hangs himself. Maybe he decides to get some help. Do you think it's okay that someone like James Holmes should be able to go to a store and walk out with whatever guns he wants?

News Flash, yes...people are still killed without the use of guns...the point remains that about 2/3 of the murders committed in America are done with guns....and almost all of these "mass slayings" are done with guns. You start limiting access to certain kinds of firearms and there would be a large drop in overall homicide and less of these random murder sprees.

Killing in general is difficult even with a gun unless you're point blank range...that's another thing, if you're talking crazy automatics you still need to adjust to recoil, have to practice and hit your targets unless again you're point blank. True you have to be close to stab someone but you can still throw a knife, ever heard of throwing knives/knife throwing? Sure, may not be as easy as pointing a gun but it's still deadly and effective just saying. And 70 people just want to point out didn't die, 12 did 54 injured...in this incident with the Colorado shooting.

Actually, Holmes bought most of weapons already had them ordered online and got them at local gun shops previously in his house previously...so he planned this apparently if you read more into it. And His house was even booby-trapped....so he definitely thought this through and had prep. I'm saying a boxer or trained fighter is deadly if he or she goes into stores, snaps people's necks or punches them in the head etc, like Pathmark, who's to say they couldn't take out double digits in minutes? Running from isle to isle, it's possible...You underestimate the human potential without weapons...or with lesser weapons. I don't collect or shoot AK-47's but they still take practice, which I'm sure this guy did given his previous purchases, plan etc. But again, point blank hard to miss in that case. I still blame a lot of this on poor security at the movie theater. or Maybe Holmes decides to use throwing knives or use his car and run over multiple people for fun...maybe he jumps off a building with lots of people and lands on 2 or 3 people killing 4 including himself...my point is you don't need a gun to get easier kills. There's tons of other ways I can go on that you're not even considering here besides a gun. Example, I've been practicing for a year with slingshots. Yet, I know they're underrated, still deadly and often ignored. but did you know that depending on the slingshot and rubber, ammo used you can crack or split a coconut shell with one? Did you know that in ballistic gelatin tests, most slingshot ammo except for perhaps a small rock/pebble go right thru it? Did you know that the speed of most slingshots surpasses paintball MPH shots?

And we both know paintball guns are simulations of real guns, just less impact but still dangerous if say you use a marble or something. Well, slingshots use marbels, steel or lead ball bearings, rocks(just about anything you can fit technically in the pouch) Now, not saying I'd kill or badly injure 12 people in that amount of time of a AK 47 or something but if I went into pathmark, I can easily shoot 10 people with big marbles in the head killing them or injuring them badly...what's to stop me? Now, before you go calling the police on false alarm(I'm not going to do this) I'm saying theoretically speaking...or a pro boxer running from isle to isle as earlier stated, punching people as hard as he could in the face one after the other?

SOME of the mass slayings have guns involved, most don't if you read into them...there's couple of thousands deaths every year in my city alone, NOT due to guns...yet you can't stop people from reproducing unfortunately then later decide to strap their kid to a radiator or drown them in the bathtub...thus why again, news flash:Guns dont kill people, People kill people at the end of the day. Period. You ban guns, ok. Your gun death ratio goes down...fatality ratio? Barely if at all...

@Vaeternus said:

Killing in general is difficult even with a gun unless you're point blank range...that's another thing, if you're talking crazy automatics you still need to adjust to recoil, have to practice and hit your targets unless again you're point blank. True you have to be close to stab someone but you can still throw a knife, ever heard of throwing knives/knife throwing? Sure, may not be as easy as pointing a gun but it's still deadly and effective just saying. And 70 people just want to point out didn't die, 12 did 54 injured...in this incident with the Colorado shooting.

Actually, Holmes bought most of weapons already had them ordered online and got them at local gun shops previously in his house previously...so he planned this apparently if you read more into it. And His house was even booby-trapped....so he definitely thought this through and had prep. I'm saying a boxer or trained fighter is deadly if he or she goes into stores, snaps people's necks or punches them in the head etc, like Pathmark, who's to say they couldn't take out double digits in minutes? Running from isle to isle, it's possible...You underestimate the human potential without weapons...or with lesser weapons. I don't collect or shoot AK-47's but they still take practice, which I'm sure this guy did given his previous purchases, plan etc. But again, point blank hard to miss in that case. I still blame a lot of this on poor security at the movie theater. or Maybe Holmes decides to use throwing knives or use his car and run over multiple people for fun...maybe he jumps off a building with lots of people and lands on 2 or 3 people killing 4 including himself...my point is you don't need a gun to get easier kills. There's tons of other ways I can go on that you're not even considering here besides a gun. Example, I've been practicing for a year with slingshots. Yet, I know they're underrated, still deadly and often ignored. but did you know that depending on the slingshot and rubber, ammo used you can crack or split a coconut shell with one? Did you know that in ballistic gelatin tests, most slingshot ammo except for perhaps a small rock/pebble go right thru it? Did you know that the speed of most slingshots surpasses paintball MPH shots?

And we both know paintball guns are simulations of real guns, just less impact but still dangerous if say you use a marble or something. Well, slingshots use marbels, steel or lead ball bearings, rocks(just about anything you can fit technically in the pouch) Now, not saying I'd kill or badly injure 12 people in that amount of time of a AK 47 or something but if I went into pathmark, I can easily shoot 10 people with big marbles in the head killing them or injuring them badly...what's to stop me? Now, before you go calling the police on false alarm(I'm not going to do this) I'm saying theoretically speaking...or a pro boxer running from isle to isle as earlier stated, punching people as hard as he could in the face one after the other?

SOME of the mass slayings have guns involved, most don't if you read into them...there's couple of thousands deaths every year in my city alone, NOT due to guns...yet you can't stop people from reproducing unfortunately then later decide to strap their kid to a radiator or drown them in the bathtub...thus why again, news flash:Guns dont kill people, People kill people at the end of the day. Period. You ban guns, ok. Your gun death ratio goes down...fatality ratio? Barely if at all...

No...most of the mass killings are the result of firearms use...I've already shown you the data....Deaths by causes other than murder are not "mass killings". Even most single person homicides are caused by firearms. Guns aren't the only instrument of murder...but they are the most popular. And yes, automatic weapon aren't the most accurate...but you don't really need accuracy when you have a room full of potential targets, do you? From all eye witness reports...he was pretty much just randomly firing. Also i never said 70 people were killed in aurora...i said 70 people were wounded...12 of which died from those wounds. 10 on site and 2 in the hospitals.

Gun control has lowered murder rates in other countries....and yet you are convinced that America will somehow by different....without providing any actual reasons for that theory.

Yes, NOT all mass killings are due to guns exclusively...In fact like posted before most "serial killers or slayings" aren't due to guns...I've shown you this data but you either missed it or ignored it. Yes, they are mass killings. You don't consider people who killed 30, 40, 50+ people mass killings? If you want real mass killings at once, screw guns or anything else take bombs...

Depends, on your accuracy and again how far you are. I've actually shot certain weapons as well as tried primitive weapons. If your target is 33-50 feet away, that doesn't mean you'll automatically hit your target with an automatic weapon. You still need to aim, keep it steady and accurate. Especially a moving target no less. Ask any hunter, they don't use automatic weapons they use sniper rifles, certain shotty's etc. Not AK 47's or pistols lol. Good luck with those hunting. Plus you want to be stealthy and silent while hunting anyway.

I know you said 70 people were wounded, it was actually reports of 54-59(not 70) but how many of those wounded were minor if not majority? Just saying. I know he was randomly spraying, but again he was what? 10 feet away from people if that far? And you had a full house so in that case you really can't miss that close. It's like hitting a can with a slingshot at 3 feet away...it's nearly impossible to miss at that range. At any rate it would only lower probably the first few years if you're lucky then slowly rise again, while murder ratios will still be steady due to guns illegally or other weapons..

Yeah, I'm pretty sure America doesn't need to ban guns all together and it's not like we even have the highest crime or gun death ratio in the world. Do you know how many people die each day in general?And more so WITHOUT any gun involvement?

@Vaeternus said:

Yes, NOT all mass killings are due to guns exclusively...In fact like posted before most "serial killers or slayings" aren't due to guns...I've shown you this data but you either missed it or ignored it. Yes, they are mass killings. You don't consider people who killed 30, 40, 50+ people mass killings? If you want real mass killings at once, screw guns or anything else take bombs...

Depends, on your accuracy and again how far you are. I've actually shot certain weapons as well as tried primitive weapons. If your target is 33-50 feet away, that doesn't mean you'll automatically hit your target with an automatic weapon. You still need to aim, keep it steady and accurate. Especially a moving target no less. Ask any hunter, they don't use automatic weapons they use sniper rifles, certain shotty's etc. Not AK 47's or pistols lol. Good luck with those hunting. Plus you want to be stealthy and silent while hunting anyway.

I know you said 70 people were wounded, it was actually reports of 54-59(not 70) but how many of those wounded were minor if not majority? Just saying. I know he was randomly spraying, but again he was what? 10 feet away from people if that far? And you had a full house so in that case you really can't miss that close. It's like hitting a can with a slingshot at 3 feet away...it's nearly impossible to miss at that range. At any rate it would only lower probably the first few years if you're lucky then slowly rise again, while murder ratios will still be steady due to guns illegally or other weapons..

Yeah, I'm pretty sure America doesn't need to ban guns all together and it's not like we even have the highest crime or gun death ratio in the world. Do you know how many people die each day in general?And more so WITHOUT any gun involvement?

Highest gun death ration in the world? No. Higher than most of the rest of the Developed world? Yes.

And once again, I've never said to ban all guns...just restrict access to some. Answer this one question for me. Do you believe that someone like James Holmes should have access to assault-grade firearms? If your answer is "No, James Holmes should not have had access to those guns" then you believe in at least some form of Gun Control. If your answer is "Yes, As an American Citizen he had a right to those weapons regardless of his mental state" then there's no reason for us to continue this discussion.

But highest in the entire world? No. There are far worse countries concerning guns and violence then USA...

Ok, ban or extreme gun control are similar. Only difference is one would remove them for good(if you can call it that) and the other more controlled. K, what if there's a zombie attack or someone trying to hurt your family down the line(just saying theoretically speaking) and where you live banned guns so you had NO weapons, and one of them kills your wife. Wouldn't you say, man if I had a gun I could have saved her...wouldn't you have preferred that gun over nothing at all? Since you emphasize on guns strictly and nothing else.

I believe anyone shouldn't have access to assault weapons easily and without good reason, however that being said I also believe there shouldn't be ridiculous gun restrictions due to one or two lunatics that cause an incident either.

So, that's my answer not so much yes or no but more with good reasoning. I definitely DON'T believe he should have had access to guns being mentally unstable, but then nobody should be even allowed to drive much less hone a gun if that's the case. I just believe in NOT punishing everyone else who wants or needs a gun due to this looney...

@Vaeternus said:

But highest in the entire world? No. There are far worse countries concerning guns and violence then USA...

Ok, ban or extreme gun control are similar. Only difference is one would remove them for good(if you can call it that) and the other more controlled. K, what if there's a zombie attack or someone trying to hurt your family down the line(just saying theoretically speaking) and where you live banned guns so you had NO weapons, and one of them kills your wife. Wouldn't you say, man if I had a gun I could have saved her...wouldn't you have preferred that gun over nothing at all? Since you emphasize on guns strictly and nothing else.

I believe anyone shouldn't have access to assault weapons easily and without good reason, however that being said I also believe there shouldn't be ridiculous gun restrictions due to one or two lunatics that cause an incident either.

So, that's my answer not so much yes or no but more with good reasoning. I definitely DON'T believe he should have had access to guns being mentally unstable, but then nobody should be even allowed to drive much less hone a gun if that's the case. I just believe in NOT punishing everyone else who wants or needs a gun due to this looney...

Zombie attack? ok yeah...i 'd love a gun for a zombie attack sure (although If it were a single zombie I'd use melee weaponry). But I'm in Canada...and we are allowed to own guns even though we do have gun control...so it's not an issue. I've never argued for "extreme gun control"...I don't think guns are the root of all evil...but they are dangerous and anything dangerous should be controlled to some degree. I've got no problem with Hunting weapons as long as certain safety protocols are maintained. I believe handguns should be a little more restricted but not impossible to own. But assault grade weaponry should not be available to the general public.

There are hypotheticals for not owning a weapon too. What if your son blew his own head off while playing with your gun? Wouldn't you say "man, if i didn't have that gun my boy would still be alive"? Wouldn't you prefer your son to be alive than to have the gun that killed him?

It's not just "one or two lunatics" either...it's dozens. Did you know that only a couple of days before the Aurora Attack there was another attack? Luckily this time no one was killed, which is probably why it was never really made a big deal out of. But still...2 Attacks like that in a week. http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20120719/NEWS/120719782/1007?Title=Acquaintance-I-would-never-have-expected-anything-like-this-

Never said Highest in the world. I said Developed Countries as in First World. Countries like Canada, UK, France, Germany. etc. All have much lower Gun crime rates. Foryour viewing pleasure here's a pretty picture

I know it sounds crazy I'm just putting a situation out there...with the zombie thing, single zombie of course you have other options such as a primitive weapon or something you can make but 10 zombies coming at you, and you have no gun? lol Personally, I'd make a sling with rocks smash their heads, a bow and arrow and slingshot/slingbow(which is essentially a modified slingshot that shoots bows....pretty cool actually and effective.) There's vids on how to make one, it's not hard.

Ok, so for the most part I agree with how you feel on the gun levels if you will, I don't think anyone can just buy an AK47 without some paper work, wait time and good reason especially. Hand guns do have wait time from what I gather but aren't that hard to get, I'm fine with them. But rocker launchers, RPG's etc obviously I'm not for people just buying them like candy or anything so there I agree with ya. I just want to point out that the only way a kid would blow his head off is if the parent/gun owner is retarded literally....example: there was a story where little kid found his dad's gun in the closet LOADED, now few things. First off, you don't put it in a place where a kid can find it. That's one, two you don't leave ANY gun loaded ever while not being used...that's got to be the dumbest thing ever and three, the father was obviously an idiot to keep a loaded gun in general in the same house with his kid who easily found it. Me, I'd make a HUGE effort to hide it one. Two, keep ammo in another spot. Problem solved. So while I see your point, 9 times out of 10 that doesn't happen unless the parent or gun owner is an idiot literally. I mean, a kid can take a steak knife out of the draw and stab himself or someone else too you know? But if you put locks on these things or put them in spots where kids can't just "easily get to" it's not an issue.

Ok, well you're right it's dozens...and a lot of those dozens happen to kill people without guns as I've stated in my links earlier in this thread. Sure, some are guns, but majority from top 25 most infamous serial killers didn't use guns, they used knives, rope or killed in other "creative" ways if you will. Look as far as attacks in general go, they happen everywhere all the time. Sometimes people get hurt, sometimes they don't. Like I said earlier, if you look what's going on between Israel and Iran for the past I don't know...100+ years? How many deaths have been recorded due to bombs/terror attacks alone? As much as gun totals in one year any place I bet...and that's not even counting DUI deaths, stabbings, other murders that again happen without guns...

@Vaeternus: The example with a kid blowing his head off is meant to show that there should be safety certifications you need for certain weapons like that. As stupid as it is for someone to leave loaded guns lying around...it has happened all to often simply because the owner didn't think about it. Honestly, anyone that doesn't understand that leaving a loaded weapon lying around is a bad idea should not be allowed to have guns.

Serial Killers are different from mass murderers though. Serial killers have patterns and rituals, most need the personal connection of being up close to their victim. Mass murderers just want a high body count as fast an as easy as possible. Serial killers are an entirely different problem. They are typically lifelong sociopaths and psychotics. They aren't classified as spree killers.

As far as Iran and Israel and other places like that go...that's about as far off topic as you can get. They've got nothing to do with Americans killing other Americans for no good reason. You're talking about a region that has been at war for generations. That's a conflict based on theology and has been ongoing for generations. It's completely different from Spree Killers like James Holmes. James Holmes did not declare Jihad against that theater. He simply decided to go and kill people.

No.

This is how easy it is to get an Assault Rifle in America...you can do it by accident.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/tv-amazon-assault-rifle/?utm_source=googleplus&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=googleplusclickthru

LOL

Actually, only certain states will ship you guns via online...some sites won't even ship me concealed knives or wrist braced slingshots lol so yeah, no way I'm getting any gun online where I live. As for the kid story, well I see what you're saying but again that only happens when you have idiots who might as well say "here little johnny, play with this" while the gun is loaded. It's really not something that's happened TOO often, it happens here and there but not that often. You hear more stories of people abusing their kids or throwing them in dumpsters. I'm pretty certain most people with common sense wouldn't leave a gun around where their kid could get it much less with it loaded. Mass murderers and serial killers can be compared if the kill count is there, and some of which are there as in double digits. That's a lot either way, and not all killers have rituals or just go into a place and shoot people. Some do yes, some are random, crazy etc while others are more planned out and thought provoked. Either way a killer is killer at the end of the day regardless of the weapon. Just want to let you know, that it's merely an example with Iran and Israel and how people kill others without gun use consistently, it's no more off topic then you bringing up the kids finding guns and shooting themselves with, my example is merely proving that in certain places in the world you don't need "just guns" to kill lots of people at once...again you're acting as if America is exclusive to people killing each other with guns, not the case.

@Vaeternus said:

Actually, only certain states will ship you guns via online...some sites won't even ship me concealed knives or wrist braced slingshots lol so yeah, no way I'm getting any gun online where I live. As for the kid story, well I see what you're saying but again that only happens when you have idiots who might as well say "here little johnny, play with this" while the gun is loaded. It's really not something that's happened TOO often, it happens here and there but not that often. You hear more stories of people abusing their kids or throwing them in dumpsters. I'm pretty certain most people with common sense wouldn't leave a gun around where their kid could get it much less with it loaded. Mass murderers and serial killers can be compared if the kill count is there, and some of which are there as in double digits. That's a lot either way, and not all killers have rituals or just go into a place and shoot people. Some do yes, some are random, crazy etc while others are more planned out and thought provoked. Either way a killer is killer at the end of the day regardless of the weapon. Just want to let you know, that it's merely an example with Iran and Israel and how people kill others without gun use consistently, it's no more off topic then you bringing up the kids finding guns and shooting themselves with, my example is merely proving that in certain places in the world you don't need "just guns" to kill lots of people at once...again you're acting as if America is exclusive to people killing each other with guns, not the case.

No...it doesn't happen often...but I bet if you were to look for it you'd find dozens of times that it has happened. It's certainly more common than "zombie attacks". Regardless, A little bit of mandatory education certainly wouldn't hurt.

I've never acted like America is the only country that has people killing other people with guns...I've only said that the rate that it happens is higher than in the other First World Countries.

Serial Killers and Mass Murderers are quite different. A Mass Murderer is someone that kills multiple people in moments. Most Serial Killers take years to do what James Holmes did in a few minutes. Ted Bundy had a higher kill count that James Holmes does sure...but Bundy was killing people for years.

Here and there you will hear something about a kid finding a gun shooting someone or himself. Sometimes it's not even lethal, it's horrible to hear no doubt but just saying like near me Staten Island, NYC my neighbor's friend's husband went to jail because the idiot left his loaded gun in the house, his kid found it. Kid shot his foot or something, nothing deadly but could have been worse you know? I mean that's just stupidity on the guy's part.

Zombie attack, again was merely an example of something where you would want guns or decent weapons. My point was, they're not all bad or used for bad. How much good have guns done? Exactly, you don't hear of it...how many lives have guns SAVED over the years? Again, don't hear of it...the bad though? oh you hear of that. Ehh, I think that's debatable. Rates fluctuate, we still are considered one of the safest nations overall compared to other 1st world and 3rd world countries out there not to mention opportunity(although now, with the guy in power messing everything up I can't say so much now)

I never said Serial Killers and Murderers are "the exact same" I said overall at the end of the day a killer is a killer. What difference does it make if one guy kills 12 people once in his life, goes to prison forever or if a killer kills 12 or more people over a year or few months time? Does time make a difference when it comes to death? Uh, not all killers take years to get 12 kills...there are killers who have killed 12 in a few months, and 40+ in less then a few years..that's not little.

Compared to a lot of 2nd and 3rd world countries America is considered pretty safe murder-wise. Compared to other First World Countries...America is circling the drain.

It's not that bad....I live here so I think I'd know.

@Vaeternus said:

It's not that bad....I live here so I think I'd know.

Well I live in Canada...and I know I'm safer than you are.

Depends, what you mean by "safer". Safer as in neighborhood or safer as if you get shot or fall down the stairs and need good hospital care? lol Besides, you don't live here so how would you know just how much safer you are? Even the nicest places incidents happen regardless of country. What a few stats say? if that's what you think, hey all I know is anything can happen anywhere at any time so.

I live in NYC one of the hardest cities in the world and I'm fine and we're not even on top 10 most dangerous charts in USA yet people who have never been here automatically assume "OMG NYC is so dangerous" lol. We have one of the biggest reps not in a good way that are overblown or over exaggerated half the time much like those who want gun bans... ;) This I know for a fact being as how I live in the USA/NYC and others even in the US much less outside of the country label us as "brutal savages or mean people" just because it's NY....That's hardly true. People are a little edgier here then some other places but it's all bs.

@Vaeternus said:

Depends, what you mean by "safer". Safer as in neighborhood or safer as if you get shot or fall down the stairs and need good hospital care? lol Besides, you don't live here so how would you know just how much safer you are? Even the nicest places incidents happen regardless of country. What a few stats say? if that's what you think, hey all I know is anything can happen anywhere at any time so.

I live in NYC one of the hardest cities in the world and I'm fine and we're not even on top 10 most dangerous charts in USA yet people who have never been here automatically assume "OMG NYC is so dangerous" lol. We have one of the biggest reps not in a good way that are overblown or over exaggerated half the time much like those who want gun bans... ;) This I know for a fact being as how I live in the USA/NYC and others even in the US much less outside of the country label us as "brutal savages or mean people" just because it's NY....That's hardly true. People are a little edgier here then some other places but it's all bs.

Stats say that in America I'm over 6x more liekly to get shot than in Canada. That's what I mean by "Safer". Sure, Accidents can happen anywhere. I'm talking about deliberate acts of violence being perpetrated against my person by another person.

You know stats aren't everything right? They don't cover random incidents and besides, that number fluctuates daily as we've discussed before.

Well, like I said I live in one of the roughest cities in the world, much less the USA yet we're not even top 10 crime charts. Used to be in the 80's but not now...thus why things change, 10 years from now Canada may be attacked by terrorists or their gun rates may get higher for all we know...

@Vaeternus said:

You know stats aren't everything right? They don't cover random incidents and besides, that number fluctuates daily as we've discussed before.

Well, like I said I live in one of the roughest cities in the world, much less the USA yet we're not even top 10 crime charts. Used to be in the 80's but not now...thus why things change, 10 years from now Canada may be attacked by terrorists or their gun rates may get higher for all we know...

10 years from now a lot could happen sure...crime could go up, crime could go down...but that's unknowable. And like i already said...I'm talking about Human on Human violence...not "random incidents".

And you just contradicted yourself. You say that your city is one of the "roughest in the world" but not in the top 10 for crime. Did you say you lived in New York? Well...the murder rate there is about 6.4 per 100000 people...about 25% higher than the national average...and that's still not anywhere close to the actual "roughest cities in the US". If you're going to continue to argue...at least actually try to use legitimate facts.

Obviously, you don't believe anything should change. You are content with what the rest of the civilized world deems an outrageous amount of deaths caused by firearms. I don't see your position changing at all any time soon and I can assure you that mine will not either. More disturbing to me is that so many people in your country seem to feel that gun rights are more important than the lives of your fellow citizens. You're very quick to want to put someone like James Holmes to death for the crimes he committed...but unwilling to look at means of trying to prevent the next "James Holmes" from popping up.

At any rate it seems we've gotten to the point where it is only you and I are still debating this issue so i suggest that, for the time being at least, we just agree to disagree and carry on with our lives.

lol I am using facts, as in people kill people, not guns...like i said earlier, a car could be considered deadly if some wacko decides hmm i'm going to take my hummer and run over 20 people in a matter of 10 minutes, what's to stop him? I'd love to hear it... I don't know where you're getting your info from but you're sadly mistaken, about this "us is concerned for guns more then people"? what? lol hardly, we just don't want our rights to guns legally taken away or made harder when people use them for good reasons such as hunting, jobs or target practice for in case of emergency or even hobby. Why should a few looneybins take that away? BTW if anything people now are more concerned with economy, jobs, presidential race etc. This is just a sad incident that happens, could have happened anywhere...like I said, stats change and aren't everything. I never said I wasn't for helping the situation, you said or think I said that. I said what I'm for earlier more strick rules perhaps with certain guns and heightened security, but not for people taking guns aways completely or gun bans...you act as if you can get a gun at pathmark or something. So yeah I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.