Why are Superhero Comics Dying?

The comicbook industry is worth the most it ever has been at over $1.09 Billion dollars. But how much of this money goes to actual superheroes?

This is something that is legitimately structured as a question. I don't like to think of myself as a comic expert, but numbers don't really lie. You might be thinking

"But oh! Comic books are doing great!"

And overall comic books are doing well as an industry. However, superhero bomic books are failing. The source of this graph is here at Forbes. This chart breaks apart each of the apart each share of the market. Not by company but by genre. If you'd like to see the sales of individual comicbooks, I'd advise you head on over to Comichron. The site features both sales digitally and to individual comicshops.

Anyway....

To further restate it, these are the market shares of each comic, accompanied by the YOY rates which symbolize growth.

• Juvenile Fiction: 41% (25.9%)
• Manga: 28% (20.1%)
• Superheroes: 10% (-9.6%)
• Juvenile Non Fiction: 3% (24.4%)
• Young Adult Fiction: 3% (39.3%)
• Fantasy: 3% (18.9%)
• Sci-Fi: 2% (-16%)
• General: 2% (32.9%)
• Other: 8% (6%)

Notable here is that not only has manga completely blown past western comics as a whole, Manga continues to grow at a YOY change of 20.1%. And slowly, comicbooks fade with a YOY change of -9.6% as of 2019.

Other interest facts

• The Author of one piece currently holds the Guinness book World Record for the most comicbooks ever sold written by any singular author. Though due to the changing hands Western comics go through, this more so serves to display the strength of manga than the weakness of comics.
• Comics have slowed down so much that ONE PIECE (462 million) is RAPIDLY catching up to BATMAN (483 million) in concerns to sales. In a few years, one piece will outsell batman entirely if both keep at their current rates. Superman remains still far out of reach at 600 million. This a very conservative estimate as some people think that one piece will beat Batman this year. One Piece has already beaten out X-Men

Do Comic sales help movies?

It doesn't seem like it.

Movie sales do not seem to help comic sales in this case. If anyone at all can find a case of this as of late, then I would like to see it.

Comichron February 2018. The Month the hit movie Black Panther came out.

• February 2018: The Release of the Black Panther movie didn't seem to draw in much in the realm of sales for the comic, unable to even make it to top 20. With placements of 70, 105, 110, 111. Respectively. A Black Panther Graphic Novel seems to fair "okay" for an overall lackluster, month, placing at 14. Still not looking great for a box office.
• March 2018: The month after saw a decrease in sales for Black Panther. So nothing of note.

Will Superheroes die DC close down?

I would argue not. This more so just shows that Western Superhero Comics are fading, rather than the superheroes themselves.

One Article in particular I'd like to address is the article indicating that DC is to close down. But the consensus people seem to mistake this for the entire company being given up. Personally, I think it would be more likely that we would see Batman and Superman would have their writing outsourced to another company. With AT&T (The company that owns DC) being over 166 Billion Dollars in debt. This is also combined by the fac does indeed lag behind marvel as of late. Despite the fact that DC appears to sell more individual issues and have top of the shelf sales.

Ultimately, Marvel and DC superheroes seem like they are here to stay in large part due to cinematic success. Toys and T-Shirts still are going to make astronomical amounts of money. And they have disney to back them with their sales. However, the mediums in which they are born seem as though they have been left in the dust to shrivel up and die.

What is the point of this thread?

The point of this thread is to find out the reason for why Superhero comics seem to be declining and to compile data to either defeat or support this trend. I'm willing to expand this thread when I have time if people just feed me good data and sources.

Also, do not hesitate to call me out if I get anything wrong. So far these are pages I include as good, citeable sources for how superhero comics

Forbes

Comichron

Wikipedia Page for best selling Comic Series

So, what do you think? Why is this the way it is?

Movies

Plus they're not cheap

And I don't think most of them are good enough to get people engaged. I tried to read some but I didn't enjoy them.

Besides the financial aspect the user above me mentioned, unlike CBMs, I think there is still a certain stigma associated with reading comic books.

The main reasons Superhero comics were anything at all before was there were no alternatives. once the 80s and 90s came around you started getting Video games and the internet and all that. then more time passed now you have streaming. comic books are super expensive and trade paperbacks never go on super sales. You look at now a marvel epic collection costs $23. for 5-7 hours of entertainment if you buy silver age let's say. For a game you can pay alf that after about 6 months nad get 100 hours depending on the game. I looked at a game sale and I saw Skyrim and Witcher 3 for about $23 combined. So what would you rather do? Spend $23 for 5-7 hours of entertaininment or for 200 hours?

6 months after a trade paperback like an epic comes out,that shit doesn't go down to half price. it stays where it is.

Aside from the various types of adaptations for superhero comics, there has been an increment of piracy over the last few years.

It is practically hard to keep up with continuity and price even though I believe there is an alternative that you can read them digitally without spending much in comics or hard copies.

Do movies take away from comics?

But then, what about Manga? I would think that there would be more of a stigma against reading mangas then there would be reading comicbooks. And comicbooks still have the support of cinema. Yet manga is steadily increasing at YOY rate of 20% with a significantly larger market and supercomics still decline with only 1/10.

See a lot of the above user. With the additional fact that the comic book industry has grown a lot overall. Manga and other types of graphic novels (with exception of graphic novels) still seem to be increase. Even with the advent of modern media.

And despite the fact that Manga is increasing, it isn't as though you can't watch an anime with a lot of the bigger ones.

Similar question to above. Why are comics more pirated than mangas?

@draciosv:

Similar question to above. Why are comics more pirated than mangas?

Actually that's a fair question. Honestly, I don't read Manga but I have collected a lot of hard copies of CGNs and Single Issues and digital comics, therefore, I can't really say.

Manga also has quite a great number of animated adaptations, therefore, I guess what affects super hero comics to decline in terms of sales is $

I don't know what Manga cost btw.

@vishop_: I have quite a few comics too but most of mine are old. The stuff I read now-a-days are less superhero-y and more along the lines of American Vampire and Monstress.

I don't read manga either myself. Might be a useful point to compare how much a manga costs too and I can pull up prices and ask friends who are big into it.

Though if anyone who does read manga can attest I'd love to hear your input.

@draciosv:

Do movies take away from comics?

I would like to reply to this one. Movies are a wider audience of media all over the world and I mean it's even bigger than comics therefore to a certain extent yes movies do take away from comics.

In terms of creativity, it's kinda shallow in my opinion and it actually affects comics especially DC and Marvel nowadays. But there are exceptions.

@draciosv: Here is a list of Shonen jump sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekly_Sh%C5%8Dnen_Jump at the bottom. From 84-95 there was a huge spike. That's Dragon Ball I think doing that. after that, you look where those numbers went

With that I agree. Movies have to not only appeal to mass audiences, but also have to compress a lot of story into a tiny frame of space, covering the most key points. Graphic novels are just that, novels. And have a whole lot more space to work with.

That' might be useful.

Though I am talking about mostly I'm talking the average price of individual mangas/collections versus the price of individual comics/collections.

@draciosv: Well one other thing to note, is that the price of comics is getting hier and hier, and that the price of mangas are very low (due to their cheap paper and lack of color).

One other thing to note: all successfull mangas have their own animated shows. All successfull comics don't have their animated show.

Another thing to note. Mangas came very late to the US. American's have years and years of mangas to catch up.

Also, mangas (due to their cheapness) have a hight production rate. Constantly new issues and stories.

And one last point, it is also due to our modern society. Now people want everything to go fast,be simpe and to be mindblowing. Well mangas have not so evolved stories. Lots of epic action. Boom, their you go to please and feed the new brainless generations.

@jb681131: I think it also helps mangas is that they aren't rebooting or using the same characters over and over again like superhero comics do. So new characters and the like make the story fresh.

Plus some mangas can get really out there and bizarre.

@vishop_ said:

That is true, piracying comics has always been mych harder than manga, it was difficult to read them online so you had to torrent them and download a sprogram to read them. Nowadays there are a couple good sites to read comics online. However that likely can't be the reason why, since its far easier to read manga online than on paper, EVEN IF BOTH COST THE SAME.

This is basically the reason, you wanna get into One Piece? Death Note? Gintama? Start by reading issue one, then keep going in numerical order.

You wanna get into comics? The are some courses online you can do so you can learn how to read them.

What Marvel and DC need to do if they want their comic sales to improve is to streamline their publishing methods. How? I have no idea, but as someone who was interested in getting into current comics and was dissuaded by how unfriendly they are to get into, I can tell you there lies the problem.

I basically ended up only reading events, or some "separated" runs like God of Thunder, because they are mostly contained stories, where I don't really need to know what each character is going thru to understand end enjoy the comic.

@rukelnikovftw:

That is true, piracying comics has always been mych harder than manga, it was difficult to read them online so you had to torrent them and download a sprogram to read them. Nowadays there are a couple good sites to read comics online. However that likely can't be the reason why, since its far easier to read manga online than on paper, EVEN IF BOTH COST THE SAME.

There are sites where you can just download comics handily though.

This is basically the reason, you wanna get into One Piece? Death Note? Gintama? Start by reading issue one, then keep going in numerical order.

You wanna get into comics? The are some courses online you can do so you can learn how to read them.

What Marvel and DC need to do if they want their comic sales to improve is to streamline their publishing methods. How? I have no idea, but as someone who was interested in getting into current comics and was dissuaded by how unfriendly they are to get into, I can tell you there lies the problem.

I basically ended up only reading events, or some "separated" runs like God of Thunder, because they are mostly contained stories, where I don't really need to know what each character is going thru to understand end enjoy the comic.

I mean there are sites where you can good instructions of reading comics chronologically and there are quite a number of communities like reddit, cbr, cv, superhero hype, etc etc.

I don't think comics are really hard to read because you are just unfamiliar with it. It's not rocket science but right now people are too much dependent upon action visuals rather than the story itself.

This

Imagine buying something that's not food in 2020 lol

That's exactly what I meant, its not simple, its another hurdle to clear.

I will be straight direct here, besides Japanese comics have more diversity in terms of genres and subgenres, such as romance, comedy, action, etc... It's a production that knew how to hit this trending era, we see effeminated art, like big-eyed boys looking girly, the typical 2000-2005+ generation, guys that take more time in front of the mirror than girls, totally disgusting if you ask me, as an exception Baki, DBZ, OPM and almost One Piece, it's an art that reflects how the current generation is, a spoiled generation of males, lack of character, comfort dependence, less effort for their hobbies, less exercise, less masculine and why less masculine, it's because we are enjoying times of peace, there are no wars, etc..., and to be clear, I'm not demonizing this generation, in fact we can't blame them because they were born under those circumstances and the Manga production knew how to hit its public, but it's all part of a natural process.

Furthermore, the Japanese have a functional animation platform and production. Western comics are more detailed, it is meant to collect them as a piece of art, on the other hand, the manga is cheaply printed in white and black like a newspaper ready to clean your ass in an emergency situation, in Western comics you will always invest more time appreciating all the details and as I said, we have a spoiled generation that does not even have the patience to admire all those details, because it's a generation that conforms itself with garbage, a generation that feels fine every second and doesn't feel like the necessity to admire truth dedication, as long it's showed clearly and uncomplicated, everything is fine.

PS:

But believe me, if the next day this generation would witness death and desolation in their countries like never before, they will think twice before not appreciating what is truly art and dedication.

My opinion?

1. Cost. 22 pages are going for what? 4 or 5 dollars a pop. It's not cost effective.

2. Other sources of entertainment. (TV, movies, internet, video games, etc) The competition in combination with a creative downward spiral hurts comics.

3. Continuity. Try keeping up with Batman, or the X-Men and not getting lost in the sheer volume of stories. Might help if companies had read lists for those trying to get in and read in chronological order.

4. Injection of identity politics. When you want to escape real world bullshit and comics is full of more of that bullshit, it's not hard to move on.

@abstractraze:

Honestly for some reason manga way of art seems same and indolent to me and this is why I have never seem to get into manga. But I admire the different aesthetics of western comics.

apparently toilet paper > comics these days

I agree with all this. I'd like to add the fact that many parts of the world do not have easy access to comic books. I guess you could call it a vicious cycle, but both mine and other countries do not bring in much in terms of graphic novels because they are either too expensive or not popular enough. Usually, if I want to but a graphic novel, I have to order from the store to hear that "it's not available" or order from Amazon and wait over a month. I mean, I will do it for Christmas or something, but you cannot keep up properly without going for... other means.

This is why:

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/introducing-the-new-new-warriors

The reason is the duopoly of Marvel & DC, they own most of the famous and iconic superhero characters IP but more or less refuse to do anything with them in the comic book medium. they're simply not interested in comics anymore. they're just focused on the movies and related merchandise; toys, video games, clothing, etc.

another problem is the 00s comics era, which is when Marvel & DC decided to focus exclusively on a mature readership and completely abandon the lucrative juvenile fiction market that they dominated from the mid to late 20th century.

beginning in the 1980s a section of more mature readers started to develop within the fanbase, regardless throughout the 80s and 90s superhero comics were still largely considered juvenile reading material. and both Marvel & DC did a good job of balancing their respective brands to cater to both types of readers.

If Marvel and DC both adopted a renewed focus on a younger target demo with their comic book publishing divisions, it could possibly make superheroes a more popular genre in the medium again. assuming Marvel & DC even care, which at this point it doesn't seem like they do.

@draciosv: the publisher cranking out comics and shoving things like the "new" warriors at shops, which people aren't buying. And those shops cant get rid of bad comics even on a discount rack.

Places are literally expected to sell this trash, and yet people like Marvel/Diamond cant read the writing on the wall. But instead cry and complain when people reject them.

ALL classic brick/mortar comic shops in general will become extinct IMO, this isn't going to just happen to superhero comics.

All I have to say is One Piece is a scary beast. I think it will have to surpass Superman at this rate, which is mind blowing considering how long Superman has been around as a cultural icon.

@draciosv: l

Because of movies I find comics to be underwhelming. Plus because movies are easier to watch, no reading and just sitting back to watch, it makes movies the preferred mode of consumption for most people when it comes to superhero stuff.

@the_hajduk:

Has it not already surpassed Superman? I thought it already did.

Except for the fact that nearly all these statistics I pull up pre-date the COVID-19 Virus

The graphics shown are from Sept. 2019 and the year of 2018 respectively. Even the Black Panther I thing I mentioned goes back two years ago.

Sorry friends. But this has been a long time comin'.

Having Animated Series doesn't quite make sense. We have had a number of series to give everything exposure. A number of many popular series I might add. On top of this you have Box office movie competing for one of the most all time viewed movies with smashing box Office Success of over 2.04 Billion Dollars. You literally can't go outside your house without seeing infinity war. I went and saw it day two and every. Single. Theater. Had it.

This also seems to imply that these movies are particularly deep and profound or something. With the exception of something like Civil War, it's usually pretty black and white. Compare and contrast this with stuff like Berserk and Death Note and I'd say popular mangas can be just as complex if not more so. And vice versa.

It was nuts. And yet you seem to be debating that somehow comics don't get enough exposure.

This is also to say nothing of the rather popular animated series we have now. We have had numerous justice league and DC animated movies closer to the comics and DC still lags behind marvel. Harley Quinn especially is a hit.

So I'll need to see some evidence that animated series actually will help. Because I feel like that would have at least pulled DC out of the water by now?

As for the price of comics. That definitely seems to be a very consistent problem. So I'll agree with you there.

This kind of falls apart in multiple places.

There are numerous mediums modern media that have manly. Characters. God of War and Doom are massively successful smash hits on the video game front for the West. For the East? I would also add to that list Hajime No Ippo, Jojo's Bizzare Adventure and Fist of the North Star (which got popular in America around the 2000s) You also have got popular Mangas like Berserk. Proving that there is still a crowd of people who like their "Alpha" Protagonists vice the stereotypical protagonists. Except that even anime has it's only "Alpha" protagonists like the one you just mentioned.

But lets go over to comics.

Do you really think that when you have stuff like this be this popular that people aren't interested in dominant characters?

Here's another thing that bothers me. It's that you make a lot of points about how comics have great art! They look really good!

....But are you saying that modern comics rely entirely on their great art? Is that all they have to offer? I feel like I can play God of War and pleasing visuals and a riveting story as well .I like good art too but I won't buy something just for art. Not when I can get something that has good art and more. I'm usually paying for a graphic novel. Not just something that looks good but that tells a good story.

I would argue that there is room for pretty-boy types, anime types, women and all the stuff in between to exist on screen at once. With no one in particular as top dog. I think it's gonna take a lot more than just testosterone and good art.

Granted. I got no problem with either of these. But something is else seems necessary for a comic to be good.

1. Agree heavily.

2. Hard disagree.As stated before, Manga continues to grow in spite of this.

3. Partial agree. As stated before, many mangas and the like go on for a long time. But many of them also do lack the immense scope of Marvel/DC's shared universe.

4. Politics is where things get interesting....

Politics. A common argument seems to be that politics has no place in comics.

You have watchmen, which features a large degree of politics concerning conspiracy theories and the red scare. It throws Doctor Manhattan into the midst of the vietnam war just to see what would happen. Has some commentary on Nixon. Mentions of the atomic bomb. A lot of things which shape the world and the perspective of the characters in question.

And you have superman ,the red son. Which has the entire premise of "what if superman was born under communism?"

So if you do wanna make this argument, you have to answer the question of "why now? Why can't we include politics in stories now? Captain America has been punching Nazis since the 40s!!"

I think the answer is easier than necessarily blaming politics. And that if anyone means to campaign against many modern comics, they'll need to approach it a bit differently.

Oh I agree. This is going to devastate comic-book shops without a doubt

And there couldn't be a worse time to do this. But this is a nail in the coffin.

Oh yeah. Most definitely.

It's already beaten out Spider-Man and X-Men in their entirety.

I’d have to patch it down to a few general issues. Though marvel and DC both have their own exclusive issues.

1. Pricing. Comics just cost too much. Say what you will about manga and the art and style, but in my experience you’ll find longer manga for similar prices. Comics cost so much for something you’re generally only going to be reading once, unless you can find a really good comic I suppose.

2. Stagnation. When you focus on such a particular genre as superhero’s, you’re bound to eventually run out of ideas. Manga’s offer western readers all sorts of new ideas and approaches that they can enjoy while you can pick out 3 high quality such as Berserk, Death Note and FMA and you’ll get 3 vastly different stories with different themes and such. You will get comics that change things up a bit and tackle new issues, but they’re few and far between. Though this is more of comparing a genre (Comics) to a style (Manga).

3. Lack of stakes. This is pretty obvious. A manga is a self contained story that is much more likely to kill off a character than a comic will be. But even if you kill a character in comics, they’ll just come back eventually. There’s only so many times you can watch Superman and Batman fight for their lives and feel genuinely invested.

4. Anime is better for promotion than movies. This is a simple fact imo. Movies make a lot of money, but they don’t do much in the way of promoting the comics given how vastly different a comic is to its movie. I can watch half of the MCU, but I can’t just pick up a Spider-Man comic and be fine. But I can watch half of an anime and jump straight into the manga just fine.

5 (Marvel). Marvel comics have years and years of history and lore, I can sit down and read Naruto in a couple months easily. I can’t sit down and read Spider-Man without going back decades and dipping into other stories for crossovers and such.

I think it’s quite clear that as manga and anime becomes more mainstream to Western audiences, they will easily overcome comics. Marvel doesn’t get into trending without a movie or a controversy while you’ll get individual episodes of anime getting into trending. See Bleach and KNY.

@draciosv: perhaps I'm putting too much value/importance on comic shops.(it could be that its just nostalgia for me)

I'm not sure how much people prefer digital vs. Tangible comics. But growing up, I used to look forward to getting new comics and talking with people about other comics and just hanging out.

I think it was the atmosphere of the shops that was so great.(even sites as devoted to comics as CV dont feel quite the same as being in-store) Admittedly, I haven't bought a comic in awhile. (I'd have to drive an easy hour just to get to a actual comic store) Even places like barnes and noble, aren't even bothering to put these comics on a shelf. Youd have better luck seeing a Dr.Who shelf (which, believe it or not, is in WORSE shape than marvel comics)

And B&N is an outlineer, mom&pop book stores are died and comic shops cant live off comic sales alone anymore.

We're definitely at something of a crossroads here and given the current state of things, I wonder how many shops will remain 6 months from now. I think there is something like 1,900 actual comic shops left in the USA. THAT IS A SOBERING THOUGHT...

@captain_inverse: I definitely think they are valuable, albeit rare. I will admit, I've only been to a comic shop once because there havent been that many near me in the places that I've lived. Barnes and Noble on the other hand has had a comic section wherever I've gone to. It's usually near wherever the manga stuff is at. Selection varies but they seem determined to have more stuff along the lines of old but really relatively proven stuff. From marvel, DC and indies, and of more types than just superhero stuff.

When I went to a comics shop they had the latest and greatest though. Fresh off the press stuff a general bookstore like barnes and noble takes forever to get. This is mostly anecdotal evidence but it seems like Bookstores might at least choose what they get based on sales. While Marvel and DC are gonna get hit hard by this, I feel like a lot of smaller indie companies are gonna get hit hard too.

In the grand scheme of things, comics are a luxury and I don't see things going well for comic shops at all. Especially when they are gonna be unable to get this new wave of stuff off the shelves. Stuff that honestly just seems okay at best or just plain bad at worse.

And comics right now, I think are looking more to the bad side. At least with what is heavily advertised. And other decent stuff is okay but seems to be relatively obscure.

@anthp2000: Since we disagree so often on the battle boards, I'm surprised to see this. Good stuff at any rate.

2. Manga is one of those competitive sources of entertainment. I was speaking of western comics in my post.

3. It's not so much having a lot of issues. It's having so many titles, guest appearances and the like.

As an example. I recently decided to read every Wolverine appearence in both the X-Men and his own title. I've just gotten past Inferno. There are more than a few times I've seen a panel noting some past story and realized I've missed stuff that previous issues didn't direct me to because reading the X titles of the 80's is an interconnected snarled mess with all the titles and annuals and whatnot.

4. Personally I didn't much like Watchmen. If that was the sort of story that was supposed to keep me buying Marvel or DC month after month, they'd be broke. Red Son is interesting, but it's didn't throw readers under the bus as far as I remember.

Captain America punching Nazi's. This is where it gets interesting. I think most would agree Nazi's are bad, and that Marvel doesn't want those Nazi' dollars. Who cares if Hitler sympathizers don't read (and pay for) a title? However modern Marvel is doing stuff like attacking people who voted for Trump. I think there is a vast difference in a Trump voter and a Nazi. Marvel is losing out by alienating half of their potential readers.

You also have some who want to deconstruct decades of story and character to insert minorities or women or alter existing characters. Killing off Wolverine to make female Wolverine, or killing off (Ultimate) Spider-Man to make minority Spider-Man is just going to alienate readers who were invested in that original character. If all of our favorite heroes and heroines are expendable, if anybody can just toss on a costume and be Wolverine, or Spider-Man (or whoever) what makes these heroes special?

In the case of Ultimate Spider-Man, I'd read 140 some odd issues showing Peter Parker come from being a level 0 screwup to being a legit hero. So what did Bendis do? Killed off Pete and started from scratch with a new "Spider-Man." I wasn't interested in re-reading that. I dropped the title.

With all that, Marvel's big news lately is the New (Social Justice) Warriors. Let's make Snowflake and Safe Space and pander. Marvel might be better served to just making good stories.

This is all from a guy who read comics throughout the majority of his life and wouldn't save either Marvel or DC if it cost me a nickel to do so at this point. Between the confusing continuity, terrible retcons, overpriced product, and bad decisions made by creators and editors, I don't care about either company at this point.

I don't remember ever interacting with you tbh.

@draciosv said:

This kind of falls apart in multiple places.

There are numerous mediums modern media that have manly. Characters. God of War and Doom are massively successful smash hits on the video game front for the West. For the East? I would also add to that list Hajime No Ippo, Jojo's Bizzare Adventure and Fist of the North Star (which got popular in America around the 2000s) You also have got popular Mangas like Berserk. Proving that there is still a crowd of people who like their "Alpha" Protagonists vice the stereotypical protagonists. Except that even anime has it's only "Alpha" protagonists like the one you just mentioned.

But lets go over to comics.

Do you really think that when you have stuff like this be this popular that people aren't interested in dominant characters?

Here's another thing that bothers me. It's that you make a lot of points about how comics have great art! They look really good!

....But are you saying that modern comics rely entirely on their great art? Is that all they have to offer? I feel like I can play God of War and pleasing visuals and a riveting story as well .I like good art too but I won't buy something just for art. Not when I can get something that has good art and more. I'm usually paying for a graphic novel. Not just something that looks good but that tells a good story.

I would argue that there is room for pretty-boy types, anime types, women and all the stuff in between to exist on screen at once. With no one in particular as top dog. I think it's gonna take a lot more than just testosterone and good art.

Granted. I got no problem with either of these. But something is else seems necessary for a comic to be good.

Of course, there will be still a demand for such kind of public, all human males generate different amount of testosterone and under different circumstances more intensely than others, some have to experience danger, violence, in order to generate a high amount of testosterone, others generate high amounts in a daily routine independently from what happens, we might be humans but we're still an animal species, we have our instincts, today we think that a woman with big boobs, wide hip, etc... are attractive, but millions of years before not the Homosapien but the Homo Erectus, it all symbolized or were good signs of good maternity, for instance, the bigger boobs, the bigger amount of milk for the upcoming generation are ensured, the wider are women's hip, the more secure or protected is the baby inside the woman, etc... days when our instincts ruled over our reason due to the lack of knowledge, today we made up abstract concepts like, women with those traits are aesthetically attractive, but it are blunt excuses in order to subconsciously pretend that we are rational beings, a disguise in order to hide our inevitable animalistic tendency.

Only because you're mentioning some of those successes, with masculine traits, Jojo as an exception which is not masculine at all, it does not change the fact that we're talking about a minority in an ocean of pussified males that started to drastically increase after the 2000's like a virus, Jojo is the perfect example of how distorted is the term masculine nowadays, only because we're talking about a series where men are physically well shaped, that pretend to act with serenity, but they look actually like queer or trans with tons of makeup and the clothing, please.

Araki is just an author who is detached from reality, a rebel in nature that is tired or frustrated that how can it be possible that a woman's body is deemed as more beautiful than a man's body.

The thing is that once more again, men and women are not equal, the attraction of men to women has a biological foundation behind, while the attraction of women to men, has a more symbolic purpose, such as well-formed musculature, is a symbol of strength and strength speaks for protection against other animals, other abusive males, a good soldier, a good constructor.

What women see in men, is a more materialistic boundary to the exterior and what men see in women is a more biologically boundary when it comes to a family, mental and physical nursing whether to adults or children.

Today, we are ashamed to accept our animalistic truths, you ask a woman why she thinks that this following guy looks attractive, she would answer " Yeah, his muscles make him look sexy"; "why", and what comes as next is a mental block, rationality confronting the instincts in a battle to the death, those resulting in "It's just my taste"

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The booming of franchises such as Doom 2016 & Doom Eternal, Baki, God of War, etc... it's just the reflection of current men in an existential crisis, and it's just simply so, because "it's too good to be true", a species that experienced violence for the most part of its existence, a species that had to invest incredible amounts of efforts to significantly achieve something, it's just simply in the genes, it's a thought or a spine in or subconscious, today we don't have to move our butts, we just order things by amazon, ebay, we watch movies via Netflix, we don't go to the cinema or to the stores anymore, etc... so, those booming masculine series are a simulation that calms but not totally stops that feeling of weirdness, like "what's wrong here? it's too peaceful and too good to be true".

Do you remember the movie Wall-E? my theory is that humanity can't end like that, because we would simply turn insane and start killing each other for no reason, because it's something that is extremely not compatible with our nature.

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Well, it's not only because of the art, but Western comics also have a very complex way to tell a story, the Doomsday Clock is an example, it's way above the average nivau, Japanese comics have a more superficial way to tell a story if we compare all of them with comics that are at the level of the Doomsday Clock DC series, with this, I'm not saying that all Western comics are complex, there are Japanese series that are more complex than so many Western comics, but if we take both peaks, Marvel or DC will always take the crown over eastern comics, Japanese comics to be more exact.

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PS:

Why is One Punch Man so popular today among a specific public, pro masculine public? because it's a series that ridicules or mocks pussified incels from today, such as Sonic, till Saitama came in and delivered a punch to his balls, like telling him to wake up and stop being a spoiled pussified incel.

Darkshine is the representation of bodybuilders that think that they are masculine, decided, serene, etc... for the simple fact of being strong, for optimally train their muscles, but it has alot to do with the character, in fact, many bodybuilders would break down with a military training program, in a war, or at the time to encounter an equal strong aggressor, etc...

@risingbean said:

I will start by saying that so far your answer is probably looking the best.

2. Ah. I see what you mean then. Then I agree. Yeah.

3. True. To be honest I just kinda wait for character collections to come out. That's what I did with X-23 ironically. And it still leaves out a lot of key events she's featured in. So it becomes really hard for me to know things like "Oh. What's her relationship with this julian kid? It seems like they're close." Go read a wiki to find out that low and behold they've both had huge adventures.

4. So if I'm to sum it up, it's that modern identity politics is.

• Too morally grey for superheroes to tackle and still be considered "good."
• Way divisive of a topic among the wide audiences superheroes for people to take one singular answer without screwing over half your audience.
• Identity politics is shoved in without regard for plot and narrative. A theme and message that must be reached regardless of how much sense it actually makes or how it treats the characters.

And then there is just plain bad writing that ALREADY existed in marvel and DC.

• Retcons.
• Continuity issues
• Reboots.
• Convoluted Canon

These both cumulatively.

So basically, if I were condense. You could pretty much just make all of it this.

Expensive.

Bad Writing.

There are a lot of things wrong with this. A lot a lot. But I'll try to address this pretty political thing in a way that will bring it back to writing.

Humans are founded on doing unnatural things. As you yourself have shown, instinct is a thing that can be trained. Like for instance, shooting guns. Or not blinking when someone punches you even though you are instinctively told to do it. Using the "it' natural" fallacy to justify one's actions and urges is an appeal to nature logical fallacy. Our instincts exist but we should keep in mind as to why it exists. For example, people are compelled to surgary things. Why? Because we were a hunter gatherer society.

Something that is extremely unnatural is shooting a gun. Something that you know, isn't really natural. Having the cognitive ability to recognize when something unnatural is actually able to be good for us. Now jobs are becoming increasingly less physical. Society is becoming increasingly less physical. The outlets people have for a lot of manual labor and physically laborious jobs are decreasing more and more each day.

For background, I'm was once in the navy for one singular tour. And what made mad was people showing up to work drunk on a work day and making someone else have to do their job for them. Because they weren't necessarily disciplined enough to stop.

Traits that are masculine or even adulting aren't really things that have to do with being gay. things like

• Strength (Mental and Physical)
• Courage
• Independence
• Leadership
• Assertiveness

Personally, I would also add honesty to this list too.

Now onto Jojo!

I'll whisper something to you. Spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen the show: The two on top get married. The one below is a major a character who is always depicted as sexy.

Jojo has all of these traits. Many of these characters have these traits. Particularly the male character who has strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness. All at once. The series has multiple protagonists and each one demonstrates all these characteristics. The show itself is also rather violent and unafraid of this violence and pain. Though it doesn't saturate the series in it. The series also doesn't shy away from the fact that women are sexy at all.

Literally the first scene of Jojo is him fighting a bunch of dudes to defend a woman, knowing he'll get beat up in the process and then right after when asked why he does, he says it's because it's the gentlemanly thing to do. As the characters are written differently, as human beings are, not every character in the show is manly. "Just like not all women or equal, not all men are equal. But this equality does not equate to greater or lesser. It means different." Not all men are born equal or with the same amount of testosterone.

As someone who has worked in the military and with people who are homosexual, I will say that being homosexual does make me inclined to like or hate you. I will not someone special treatment in favor of someone who is gay. Nor against them. Results are what matter.

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The market exists. So why aren't they buying comics? Why are comics as a whole continuing to decline in spite of that market increase?

Why are many manly mangas successful? And mainstream western comics aren't?

If you have the to play Doom and channel your urges into something else that's fine. But you still aren't really explaining why One Piece is on the fast track to destroying Batman. Or why Batman doesn't sell enough to compete with One Piece and is soon to surpass it.

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Complexity=/=Deep and Profound. A good analogy is being mile wide. Having a lot of cool ideas. And inch deep. Not going very far with these concepts. Not exploring them in any real amount of depth.

It just means there are a lot of things happening at once. A lot of different storylines being juggled. It doesn't *inherently* make it better. Such things can easily just end up being a massive cluster****.

But, why would you compare things like Doomsday Clock, which is Marvel's best and compare them to the "average" anime and manga. Anime and manga separate. Why wouldn't you compare it to something like Ghost in the Shell. A show with enough complexity to rival a Tom Clancy Novel.

More over, why don't you name some more recent things that can actually compete with stuff. Cause all I see is stuff like this with the occasional good series like immortal hulk.

A lot of people would argue that most comics now-a-days are just painfully average at best. Some people in this very thread have argued that point. That it's just that most comics are okay or worse at best with some exceptions. Doomsday Clock and the X-Men relaunch are some exceptions.

But these appear to be few and far in between.

@richubs: Neither Marvel or DC publicise their comics online or on TV. I'd love to see an ad for Marvel comics before a marvel movie. A five second ad on a youtube vid would probably do alot to get the word out.

This has been an interesting read.

@graeme1:

Yeah a lack of marketing is also an issue I agree.

• CBMs
• Horrible writing and crappy speeches
• Lack of creativity or/and boldness
• Not too engaging anymore
• A platform for pushing political agenda instead of telling stories
• Ridiculously high price
• Mangas being more superhero than superhero comics
• Terrible editors and supervisors
• Writers spend most of their time on twitter
• Bad marketing
• Comicbook shops getting closed
• Talentless and/or inexperienced newcomers
• Continuity doesn't make any sense
• And so on...

If we talk in general:

1-Agenda it's something that have been making too much problems on fiction not only comic books

2-too many retcons and reboots this is one of those things that have been too damn difficult to explain especially on Marvel and DC

3-controversy surronding the Big companies this includes Bad marketing and comic book shops closing.

4-most of the authors that did something amazing are gone,now we have like millions of newcomers that have no real experience working on here

5-not that entertraining like it was before.

• Being used as a platform for SJWs' and Political Agendas (Especially Marvel)
• Comic Book Movies - It's sad to see how people judge characters solely based on live action movies (For example : Thanos)
• Unnecessary continuity reboots (Especially DC)
• Bad marketing and Comic Book Shops closing down
• Terrible editors who lack credibility
• Newbie writers who lack imagination
• Being overpriced
• Lack of creativity

Mostly cause they are platforms for leftist propaganda

Gonna sound really dated and old, but I remember when I first started with comics you legit were in it to collect’em. Trading cards too were a thing, be it sports cards or comic cards. Mind you this is pre-internet days, so you would go to the corner store or comic shop and buy physical books or cards from your favorite artist or writers and build your collection up. That kind of “hobby” or whatever you want to call it, is not a thing anything more, people just don’t roll like that nowadays I guess. I suppose that may have something to do with it, in addition to all the other points made in this thread

@draciosv: have you been following diamond recently???

BUMP

I guess because for younger people who like superhero stuff, they can just watch the shows and movies. It's a lot easier, cheaper, and more accessible.

SJWs have killed comics in the West. The target audience of superhero comics (young males) are not the demographics that are fond of SJW, far left propaganda. That's why more and more people buying manga/subscribing to anime services.

Also manga is now far more easily accessible in the West legally, Manga Plus is very cheap. Comics have no future outside movies.