Lady Shiva has just humiliated Cass Cain and Batman

This just happened on the most recent issue of Detective Comics that came out Detective Comics #952 - League of Shadows Part Two: The Five Fingers of Death

The images of Lady Shiva humiliating Cass and Batman:

Now, that was domination!!...sure, Cass was holding-back not to kill, but that's what she always does, that's Cass "in-character", and it has always been, so its a mute point...for that matter that's also Batman, always.

I guess that its worse for Cass, since she has to hold-back more not to kill due to her being trained primarily to be a assassin, but still...this is Cass 24/7 as far as how she fights, and she got completely dominated, she couldn't even land one single hit on Shiva or block one single of her attacks, and Batman got dominated in 2 panels...just wow!!...its always nice, to see characters like Lady Shiva been done justice, but i wasn't expecting it to be like this...awesome, regardless.

My question is, does this mean that Lady Shiva is right now the absolute number 1 in close-combat in DC, meta-humans excluded? i mean, she was always up there, but now i'd say that not even Cass can compete.

Knew that was gonna happen.

This thread should not exist.... It will upset the Bat-God's servants and believers! Delete this as soon as possible!

OT: No this is probably one of those low-balling bs. She's a great hand to hand combatant but that was just too unreal and so easy for her. It kinda felt like Batman was dumbed down for this issue.

Good

Batman is fodder confirmed.

Didn't she already beat Batman in that Nightwing flashback?

@foxerdes: Didn't Batman and Shiva always fight to a draw back in the day?

I love it. Shiva should be among the best.

Reminds me of how Richard Dragon beat the hell out of Green Arrow in Lemire's run.

@stahlflamme: yeah she destroyed him. And I think Bruce only ever "won" due to outside factors.

- Yes, Shiva beat a rookie Batman on Nightwing #0 - Perpetual Motion but she used a poisoned shuriken before the fight...after that she proceeded to beat up Robin (Dick Grayson) on his first day as Robin...not very impressive.

- Yes, they used to, anyways, Cass "in-character" also used to be as capable as Shiva if not more so, but it looks like that's not the case anymore...plus, Shiva pretty much admitted that her previous losses were bs since she faked them...she pretty much just stated that sometimes she let some of her opponents beat her (for some reason) i guess that it might be related with Shiva having a death-wish (searching for the best fighter there is that will be OK with a death-duel, so that she could die in a fight against a worthy opponent) that used to be recurrent-theme of her on the pre-flashpoint continuity.

Lady Shiva was always portrayed as being more skilled than him, even if only slightly, but Batman was also always portrayed as being able to at least keep up with her, you know? holding his own, now the gap between them just seems too big for they to even be in the "same league", so to speak...as for Cass, well, that was more child-abuse, than a fight between 2 of the most capable fighters in the world...but whatevs, i'm happy that they did Lady Shiva justice.

Alright I am confused. Is this the same Shiva from the post flashpoint universe, where she was only as old as Dick Grayson?

Honestly...i don't know...the thing is that both "Shiva's" are in continuity...if they are not the same...this looks to me like a retcon, which makes sense with the whole "Rebirth movement" going on with DC basically dropping most of the "New 52" changes to the characters and history, and going back to some of the old stuff, basically trying to merge both continuities (pre and post-flashpoint) i think that they are trying to use what worked well for them in the New 52 and trying to erased what didn't...New 52 "green ninja with bladed hair" Shiva, was badly received by most fans, her design alone is/was terrible, she was put at Dick Grayson's age, and she started having too much low-showings, i think that DC is trying to revert "new Shiva" to pre-flashpoint Lady Shiva...i mean, lets face it, Lady Shiva right now has a teenager daughter not much younger than Dick Grayson himself, in Cassandra Cain, there's just no way that she can still be placed at around his age.

@bat_girl_cc: That makes sense. This Shiva resembles her New Earth self far more than the other one

Yes, actually when i first saw her new design on Detective Comics #950 i was like: "what's pre-flashpoint Lady Shiva doing here?" lol, but that was welcome surprise, a good one, overall she just looks much better than new 52 Shiva, not to mention that a fighter that trained and mastered all fighting forms and is on her early 20's isn't very belivable...plus, as we can see the "real Lady Shiva" as i'm going to be calling her from now one :) is also far more capable.

I'm kinda sad for Cass and disapointed for Batman, but oh well, we can't have it all...plus the current arc its only 2 issues in, theres hope that it will get even better, with more badasserry :P

Btw, hope Cassandra's character gets more developed and her new back story is fully shown and explained, its about time! i mean there's alot we still don't know (is David Cain and Lady Shiva relationship the same it was pre-flashpoint? how does that fit with the whole Mother stuff? how does Ra's fit in this? etc)

@bat_girl_cc: Me too. Glad to see the real Shiva back for a change. BTW, do you still think Cass isn't as good as her new earth self?

I'm more than convinced now...Cass has performed zero meta-human feats so far (something that was pretty random for her to do pre-flashpoint)...skill-wise Cass even tho less skilled than Lady Shiva (everyone is in DC, minus Karate kid) she was as capable fighter as Shiva if not more so thanks to her advanced body-reading, despite not fighting to kill unlike Shiva, but now, well...the images are there for everyone to see and take their own conclusions lol, to me that wasn't a main-event fight, it was child-abuse IMO...Cassandra's feats so far are easly defeating Dick Grayson without being touched and while holding back (as in, Dick noted that her fighting-style should be lethal but its not because Cass holds back), and she easly defeated The Mother, who toke out all former robins and damian together at same time, and she "bullet-timed" once but it was the weakest that she has ever done, i mean she moved in time to take Harper Row out of a bullet's way and got shot instead...never before had Cass been tagged by a bullet that she didn't tried to dodge...she has sneaked up on Batman and Lady Shiva, which is very impressive stealth-wise...and that's the entirity are her note-whorthy feats so far...in all fairness, she had never lost a fight until now, but this loss was embarrassing IMO i know it was against Lady Shiva a.k.a the most skilled fighter in the world, but Cass was never this out-classed, save for the time when she lost her body-reading.

@bat_girl_cc: Ahh, I see.

How is this possible, she is a mere woman

Honestly? I'm not happy with that. I love Shiva and there was never any doubt that she is his superior in h2h combat. Nevertheless, he was always able to at least keep up with her, gave her a fight. That's just... sad.

It's cool that Shiva receives praise she deserve but come on.

I prefer shiva as an equal to batman. All though I guess she needs this. I'm holding out hope that Cass comes back and beats her though.

Batman right now is getting beat up everywhere. These last few issues have been tough on him:

-Almost getting killed by the prince of a nation in JLA

-Getting smacked around by Bane his self title

- Toyed with by Shiva in Detective Comics

I am fine with that. What I am not fine is all the stupid drama with their team mate lately. I mean is getting a bit annoying when your biggest enemy is your own team mate problems. Is slowly turning into the Arrow.

Batman got sat down like Griffith did to Guts. The most basic armlock ever. Has Batman done anything martially impressive since TMNT crossover?

The skill gap between them should be fairly slim. Not into her punking him like that. Pretty stupid.

LOL...yeah, and the most skilled fighter in the world as well.

Yes, me too, but things are not looking good, this time around...in the previous continuity, Lady Shiva defeated Cass twice, but the first time Cass didn't had her Body-Reading, and the second time Cass wantted to die...this time however, none of that happened, it was just straight up domination from beggining to end, and quite frankly it was a bit humiliating not managing to land one single hit and being talked down and smacked around like that (hence why the title i choosed for this thread) heck, in one panel Shiva is holding Cass by the neck, and it even looks like Cass is going to start crying right there, when she says: "not...going...to kill"...like....whatever...i guess that if Cass for some reason went for the kill on their rematch she would stood a much better chance of beating her, but that would be out of character for Cass.

Both of them should be closer to Shiva but this is a cool feat for her

But...she doesn't have male genetalia

"B-B-B-B-B-But Batman knows 127 forms of fighting! He should be the best fighter in DC!!!"

- Batman fanboys on rabies

This same writer wrote Jason Todd one shotting Shiva in the past. Plotting is not something be bothers with, he just thinks of cool "moments" of fan service and has the plot lead in to that. In this he was trying to undo the PIS with Jason only to replace it with new PIS.

Azrael and Batwing were destroyed by common ninjas in this very issue. Its PIS, moving along now.

He wasn't fighting Bane and Havok & Diehard are not street level characters.

This is a silly thread becusce we all know Batman gonna ruin her plans and Cass is gonna kick her ass.

Yes...Yes...Yes...

Lady Shiva is back in action. I hope she takes over Gotham (don't ask why I want her to).

Also, who wants to see a fight between Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger because that will be AWESOME!

Tynion just loves to make batman weak against his favorite girls.

That said Cass would have lost even if she wasnt holding back, maybe after this fight shell do some growing up and be able to beat her.

Written by Tynion? Does anyone actually think this feat will stand? Two issues from now, Shiva is gonna get one-hit KO'd by Stephanie Brown or something, and we'll be right back to your regularly scheduled Detective Comics' stupidity.

Granted, Tynion will most likely have her get KO'd by Cass when she stops holding back and then does a groan-worthy "I IS NOT KILLER!" moment.

As for Batman, he's had worse showings. Getting armlocked by Shiva in one move is still nowhere near as bad as him nearly dying to Holly Robinson.

I hate to blame this all on Scott Snyder because he can write, and seems like a nice bloke, but this cancer did originate from him.

That troll bait is about five years out of date, pal. Pick something new.

Nice to see Cassandra get the shit smacked out of her, implausible as it is. Bruce getting beaten so fast shouldn't have happened either.

@orangebat: IIRC, Holly caught him off guard, so that is not quite the same as beating him in a straight up fight

I can't understand how Tynion managed to start off well with his run and now it's like he is trying to destroy everything he already build upon.

The current Bat-writers are all such geniuses. It's like DC hired kids who just want to see cool moments in their books.

Actually, in my opinion, James Tynion is a fairly good writter, and he's the one from the current writters in "activity" on DC right now that has the most knowledge on the bat-family (he once even said that he has read every single appearence of Tim Drake, ever, yeah thats alot of books and that alone already contains alot of Batman, Cass, Steph, and others, plus everything else that he has read) and he's the one who better knows and gets the bat-characters...you don't really think that he was basically put in charge of the weekly Batman and Robin Eternal, just because, do you?...also, he's now currently writting a flagship title that has the name of the company on it, "Detective Comics", and just a few issues ago he got to write Detective Comics issue 950 which was a milestone, and he will likely get to write issue 1000 as well.

As for Shiva vs Jason, on the same issue that the infamous "oneshot" toke place, Tynion had Jason stating that he only did it due to a special move, a shortcut, that was taught to him by Shiva herself, just in case that he ever fought anyone of Shiva's caliber...that alone clearly indicates that Jason isn't on Shiva's level, hence why he had to use that "shortcut-move" its different from beating someone straight up...it was still bad-writtting in my opinion, because since it was Shiva herself that taught that move to him, and since that she's a better fighter than him (implied/stated multiple times throughout that run) than how come she couldn't avoid it/dodge it/counter it? the answer its pretty simple, Jason taking out Shiva on his own book was a plot-device-move necessary for the story to advance...it was poor-writting non the less...and it was Tynions worse than i have ever seen, and quite frankly other than that, he's been spot on, on most his work that i've read, including the weekly Batman and Robin Eternal, and now, Detective Comics, which has been very good so far.

There's also another aspect that i think that people are overlooking, and the answer to it was pretty much the whole point of this thread...is it possible that "power-levels" and "rankings", are not the same anymore?...for instances, is it possible that Lady Shiva is now the absolute number 1 on DC with no-one to even coming close to her? because right now, it sure looks like it...

If only...

After this issue...i only see that happening either with a plot-device, or Cass goes all out which i don't see her doing since the whole point of her running away from her father (David Cain) was that she was terrifyed by even the idea of killing someone.

Yes, money is placed on "the good guys will win in the end" as in most stories :p but it will be interesting to see how they do it this time.

@bat_girl_cc: well they could always bring back the real Richard Dragon to give her some competition. Honestly I didn't really like the New 52 Green Arrow villain version of him. If Rebirth brings him back, they could re-establish his history training people like Bruce.

As for Shiva beating Bruce in two panels, that pretty much shows this Batman is still a bit more arrogant yet less prepared/skilled then in Pre-Flashpoint. Like how in Forever Evil, the best contingency plans he had for fighting the league were nowhere near as impressive as the ones seen in Tower of Babel.

Yeah, the classic version of Richard Dragon is/was the best version of him, same as Lady Shiva, and not that freakish ugly green ninja with bladed hair, version of her, that looked more like a dinossaur than with a person...but the problem is that old richard dragon is currently dead, killed by "Diaz" the new richard dragon who toke his name for himself...i guess that they could always retcon it by saying that the real Dragon just faked his death, but since "new dragon" wasn't so poorly received as "new Shiva" was, chances are that he won't be brought back, sadly.

Agreed. Pre-Flashpoint Bruce > Post-Flashpoint Bruce...save for his new giant special suits.

Clearly there will be a rematch.

On a sidenote I'm always annoyed how BAtman gets his ass kicked in Gotham all the time, by his bad guys. But over in the JL or Metropolis or STar City ... he has ways to beat Superman, The Flash, Deathstroke (all superpowered and way more powerful than him) . It's that preposterous aspect of BAtman that always gets me. And worst ... fanboys like to ignore these things.

@bat_girl_cc: oh yeah, almost forgot about the fenrir suit from Endgame, that did pretty well actually. Plus the Hellbat suit that took on Darkseid. He doesn't have an Insider suit though. Maybe the Flash-Watchmen button crossover might hav him remember the unaltered timeline restoring all his experience and skills.

As for Richard Dragon, who knows, maybe they'll realize their mistake with him and retcon anyways. One can hope.

A slim woman at that. Comics, when it's stupid in our world, it makes sense in comics....always.

• Awesome..Shiva should be elite..Glad to see her returing to from after being seemingly weakened in the New 52.
• But...Shes somewhat overpowered here, She should be slightly better then Batman not laughably better then him like the pictures show.

Yup.

" Maybe the Flash-Watchmen button crossover might hav him remember the unaltered timeline restoring all his experience and skills. "

Actually i'm expecting that by the end of the Rebirth storyline, something like this happens, like "merging realities" sort of thing, but he just remembering it and sudenly he's that good again without having to go through those experiences, just seems too convinient and kinda cheap IMO, but whatevs, i guess it would be worth it anyway to have old Bruce back :D

Great. So does this mean we can disregard every other appearance by her in the new52? I mean, I already did the moment she came out look like a Dino Ranger, but it's good to know it's official now.