DC's Death Metal #1 confirms The Presence = Source

The connection between the Source (traditionally known as the "God" of New Gods like Darkseid and Orion) and the Presence (traditionally seen as the Judeo-Christian God) has been hinted at in a variety of settings, but it hasnt been brought up in a few years.

Death Metal, DC's latest "crisis" event, confirmed that the Source which has authority over Super Celestials like Perpetua, is part of the Presence/vice versa.

"They do this using connective energy, born of the Presence, of the Source."

This definitively means that the Presence > Perpetua. It also means that the Presence is not a denizen of the Sphere of the Gods like other religious figures in DC, like the pantheons, or Rama Kushna.

Likewise, we know Perpetua > Nil Monitors/Mandrakk/Thought Robot based on the fact that Perpetua created Nil, the entire multiverse, and Mar Novu who splintered into the Nil Monitors.

So, nail meet coffin. Presence > Perpetua > Nil Monitors/Mandrakk/Thought Robot

@kuuzo@anaverageguy123@lmaolmaolmao@coolguy18@mandrakksfang@rijehu@enigma22@boutatakeanl

Great

Lets see what they come up with now

Nice screw monitors

@xearesay

Also Mandrakk is literally in the scan.

Ok now there is like NO EFFIN WAY you can't deny The Presence anymore in the cosmic hierachy. Monitor cultists....your answer please?

Difficult to say how that works. I like to think of them as a singular Godhead, like the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But all we know for sure is that their power is the same. Not sure where, if at all, Monitor-Mind fits into that equation these days. He/it hasn't done anything since Final Crisis. It may be that the current writers didnt like the idea of a sentient void-god and just let it be a void. Or it could be that after "working through it's ultimate story" (Grant's words) the Monitor Mind had no need for sentience.

Non-canon, clearly, plus Mandrakk and CAS are immune to retcons because they are the editors of DC comics, so they decide what true and what isn't.

@ovy7: Are you for real or joking?

He's joking. He's imitating the Monitor Cult's likely response.

@deagonx: And I -oop. Sorry.

why did you guys ruined it? smh

"Look, even someone from your Vertigo Cult had finally saw the truth" - monitor group

@huko: XD

Wow no kidding amazing scan

Did you just stole my quote??? :pulls_out_gun:

It also confirmed that all of the Crises were the work of Perpetua.

Mandrakk is there as well, alongside Darkseid and the Bats. Even Zero Hour Hal Jordan.

This means that Final Crisis was instigated by Perpetua. It could also be interpreted that Mandrakk was one of her "scions" because directly after saying that she caused the Crisis events, it says "in our battle with her last scion, Barbatos" meaning the architects of each crises are considered her scions, which would include Mandrakk and Darkseid. Albeit unknowingly. Mandrakk has a habit of overestimating himself.

So does this mean the Presence has even more children and Lucifer etc are brothers of Perpetua etc?

@deagonx: is doomsday clock a work of perpetua too?

No. Doomsday Clock is addressed elsewhere in that rant.

When you realize AT&T is now technically the highest power in the DC universe....

The Archangels are his actual children and Supercelestials like Perpetua are his agents. They are probably not biblically related but this now confirms all spawned from him.

@deagonx: by elsewhere what could they possibly mean?

I don't understand the question.

@deagonx: i mean to say if doomsday is not a crisis event caused by Perpetua than what exactly it is?

We could just call it an event comic. There are plenty of DC events that aren't Crises.

@deagonx: i see thanks

This is being completely misleading. How about we actually look at the full scan though.

It never mentions the Source being "apart" of the Presence. It's equating the "connective energy" as apart of the Presence and also apart of the Source.

The full scan mentions that other creators used energy "connective energy" to make their multiverses within the void. However Perpetua did not use connective energy. She used some other energy called "crisis energy" to make her multiverse which is previously mentioned that she was utilizing to target and destroy her kind.

"But the mother of our multiverse, Perpetua started out reality with crisis energy."

It's also specifically said that "Crisis energy" was capable of matching all of the connective energy harnassed by the Justice League when they went to fight Perpetua. And Perpetua won that battle. Meaning Crisis energy > Connective energy. So If anything this scan confirms that energy born of the Presence and The Source is weaker than energy Perpetua utilizes.

Mandrakk is in the scan because Wally is mentioning Crisis's. That's why he's behind Darkseid. The same way Anti Monitor, Superboy Prime and Parallax are also in the same scan. It's simply bringing up previous events.

It also means that the Presence is not a denizen of the Sphere of the Gods like other religious figures in DC, like the pantheons, or Rama Kushna.

This is also not supported anywhere in the scan you're utilizing to make this claim.

Perpetua also didn't create Grants iteration of Nil nor Grants iteration of the Monitors. The Thought Robot and Mandrakk are specifically said to be made of the Overvoid in Grants iteration. Tynion gave literally two warnings that the answer he was about to give was merely "his interpretation" which has no bearing on the comic. Hence why he claimed the scene was specifically something "you can read in different ways."

It also doesn't alter Grants iteration of the Monitors which come from the Overvoid. Mandrakk's involvment in the current canon also has 0 mentions of him being beneath Perpetua in his primal state.

Stop distorting the information being given to push weird agenda with the cosmology.

Mandrakk is there as well, alongside Darkseid and the Bats. Even Zero Hour Hal Jordan.

This means that Final Crisis was instigated by Perpetua. It could also be interpreted that Mandrakk was one of her "scions" because directly after saying that she caused the Crisis events, it says "in our battle with her last scion, Barbatos" meaning the architects of each crises are considered her scions, which would include Mandrakk and Darkseid. Albeit unknowingly. Mandrakk has a habit of overestimating himself.

A crisis can be instigated by literally the most minuscule things like the death of a specific character. So this is a completely stupid point. That also doesn't make any sense because Barbatos is being called a Scion because he was specifically promised something by Perpetua. Barbatos being called a scion because she specifically promised him something doesn't mean =/= every antagonist of a crisis is her scion.

And it's most likely referencing her instigation as the flaming missives on the wall which were read before the final crisis.

This is amazing.

Que the damage control.

@xearesay

This is being completely misleading. How about we actually look at the full scan though.

Lol. I am being misleading by only showing the relevant parts of a scan? Anyone is welcome to read it themselves.

It never mentions the Source being "apart" of the Presence. It's equating the "connective energy" as apart of the Presence and also apart of the Source.

The implications of that change nothing. If connective energy is born of the Presence, of the Source, this clearly indicates they are related beings. It also still proves that Presence > Perpetua, since she is utilizing energy born from him. It also confirms he's above the Multiverse.

Likewise, learn English dude. The phrasing uses "The Presence" and "The Source" as like-terms. "Born of the Presence, of the Source." Note that there's no "and" there, it's not listing them as separate beings. It's indicating that the sentence can be phrased different ways, which means The Presence and the Source are interchangeable for the purposes of that information.

It's also specifically said that "Crisis energy" was capable of matching all of the connective energy harnassed by the Justice League when they went to fight Perpetua. And Perpetua won that battle. Meaning Crisis energy > Connective energy.

You're misreading the scan and making assumptions. The Justice League did not have all the connective energy in the Omniverse. They had the connective energy given to them from the Quintessence, taken from Manhattan. All this means is that Perpetua > Dr Manhattan.

So If anything this scan confirms that energy born of the Presence and The Source is weaker than energy Perpetua utilizes.

You're assuming the amount of Connective Energy that Dr. Manhattan wielded (and that the Quintessence gave to the JL) is equal to the power that Perpetua wielded, which isn't supported by the text. Likewise, it doesn't say that Perpetua wielded Crisis Energy in combat, just that she used it to create this Multiverse.

Mandrakk is in the scan because Wally is mentioning Crisis's. That's why he's behind Darkseid. The same way Anti Monitor, Superboy Prime and Parallax are also in the same scan. It's simply bringing up previous events.

Yes, that Perpetua instigated. Meaning Perpetua was the architect of Final Crisis, which is more evidence she is above the Monitors.

This is also not supported anywhere in the scan you're utilizing to make this claim.

Yes it is. If connective energy is born of the Presence/Source, and is given to Super Celestials to create Multiverses, how could the Presence be a being from a Multiverse that Perpetua created? That's totally backwards. Presence/Source are above the Multiverse, and they create Connective Energy which is used to create them by beings like Perpetua.

Perpetua also didn't create Grants iteration of Nil nor Grants iteration of the Monitors.

Yes, she did. DC is composite, and Snyder's 6th Dimension goes directly above Nil, and even farther above that. Unless you're saying "Grant's specific description of how the Monitors were created has been retconned" in which case, yes. I'm aware DC retconned aspects of the Monitors. That doesn't change anything.

Mandrakk's involvment in the current canon also has 0 mentions of him being beneath Perpetua in his primal state.

And Hecate's involvement in the current canon also has 0 mentions of her being beneath Perpetua. Yet, you say that we can conclude logically this is the case. I guess you get to make up your own rules.

Stop distorting the information being given to push weird agenda with the cosmology.

Literally just quoting the comic, but okay.

A crisis can be instigated by literally the most minuscule things like the death of a specific character. So this is a completely stupid point.

The scan says they were instigated by Perpetua, lmao. The fact that she can manipulate Monitors from inside the Source Wall (and instigate an event that wiped them out) means she's above them. As well as the fact she literally created them.

That also doesn't make any sense because Barbatos is being called a Scion because he was specifically promised something by Perpetua.

Where is your evidence that that's the reason he's called a scion? The word scion doesnt mean that inherently, so that's just an assumption you're making.

Someone cannot read it says the energy was born of the the presence of the source which means theryre the same being

Lol. I am being misleading by only showing the relevant parts of a scan? Anyone is welcome to read it themselves.

How is the only relevant part of the text? The entire text is about one topic and it's loaded with information. You literally cut out the part that mentions Perpetua not utilizing this connective energy.

The implications of that change nothing. If connective energy is born of the Presence and the Source, this clearly indicates they are related beings. It also still proves that Presence > Perpetua, since she is utilizing energy born from him. It also confirms he's above the Multiverse.

She isn't utilzing energy born from him. We don't know where crisis energy came from and it never saids where it did. It's specifically contrasted from the connective energy born of the Presence.

You're misreading the scan and making assumptions. The Justice League did not have all the connective energy in the Omniverse. They had the connective energy given to them from the Quintessence, taken from Manhattan. All this means is that Perpetua > Dr Manhattan.

It literally saids they harnessed all connective energy. You clearly didn't fully read the scan.

You're assuming the amount of Connective Energy that Dr. Manhattan wielded (and that the Quintessence gave to the JL) is equal to the power that Perpetua wielded, which isn't supported by the text. Likewise, it doesn't say that Perpetua wielded Crisis Energy in combat, just that she used it to create this Multiverse.

It clearly was since they literally the Justice League harnessed all connective energy and Dr Manhattan was "brimming" with the connective energy. This also confirms that Dr Manhattan even with all of the connective energy couldn't alter Superman's timeline...

Yes, that Perpetua instigated. Meaning Perpetua was the architect of Final Crisis, which is more evidence she is above the Monitors.

Instigating something =/= being the higher power for everything that went on within it. I can instigate a fight by getting two people mad at each other, does that mean I'm a higher power between what's going on in the fight? No it does not. Also "instigated" can vary from literally an important character dying to a war being won. This isn't a display of power.

Yes it is. If connective energy is born of the Presence/Source, and is given to Super Celestials to create Multiverses, how could the Presence be a being from a Multiverse that Perpetua created? That's totally backwards. Presence/Source are above the Multiverse, and they create Connective Energy which is used to create them by beings like Perpetua.

We don't know yet. This is a complete retcon of the Presence. Connective energy also doesn't create super celestials. It's just the energy they utilize to start the flow of multiverses. Perpetua didn't use this energy though and she's specifically referred to as being more powerful and feared then all the other creators.

Yes, she did. DC is composite, and Snyder's 6th Dimension goes directly above Nil, and even farther above that. Unless you're saying "Grant's specific description of how the Monitors were created has been retconned" in which case, yes. I'm aware DC retconned aspects of the Monitors. That doesn't change anything.

Not based off Nil's previous position which was in the Overvoid. Nil's current position isn't even known. All we know is that it was "formed with the current universal structure" which is obviously different from the previous structure during the time of Final Crisis as I've already mentioned.

And Hecate's involvement in the current canon also has 0 mentions of him being beneath Perpetua. Yet, you say that we can conclude logically this is the case. I guess you get to make up your own rules.

When did I argue Mandrakk being beneath Hecate? You mean the Presence? That's basically he actually was mentioned in the comic twice, which means he was relevant to the event. No one's making up rules, you're just misconstruing what i'm saying.

Literally just quoting the comic, but okay.

You mean lying and being misleading.

@deagonx@xearesay

Deagon has a point. If a being is powerful enough to instigate crisis from WITHIN the source wall, especially to go as far as instigating it through monitors, shows that she is FAR above any monitor.

@boutatakeanl: Like I said before, instigating is not resemblance of power. You can instigate a chain of events by literally killing one person. It also doesn't make sense since she was literally in the Source Wall. Unless you're suggesting that she was utilizing her power to effect the multiverse outside of the Source Wall, which would contradict the entire reason she was put within the Source Wall in the first place.

@xearesay: I'm saying that she was powerful enough that even the Source Wall couldn't contain her power to instigate crisis. However, you share a good point. But a human in one universe in a DC comic couldn't just kill their neighbor and start a crisis where the entire multiverse gets devoured. You need to be powerful to instigate something that would reach as far as a threat to the whole multiverse.

How is the only relevant part of the text? The entire text is about one topic and it's loaded with information. You literally cut out the part that mentions Perpetua not utilizing this connective energy.

Because that isn't relevant to the conclusion. The Source/Presence > Super Celestials. Perpetua going rogue doesn't alter that basic information.

She isn't utilzing energy born from him

Okay? They're still above her.

It literally saids they harnessed all connective energy.

Except there are literally other multiverses. Was their Connective energy somehow brought to the DC? Dr. Manhattan was brimming with Connective Energy. It clearly just means all the energy that was available to them.

But even if we accepted that conclusion, it still wouldn't change anything. Just because the Source/Presence create a certain type of energy, doesn't mean that energy is their collective power.

Instigating something =/= being the higher power for everything that went on within it. I can instigate a fight by getting two people mad at each other, does that mean I'm a higher power between what's going on in the fight? No it does not

If you're able to manipulate high-cosmic beings then it's a safe bet you're more powerful than them. But it doesn't really matter, it was already directly stated that she is above Nil and that she created the Monitors.

We don't know yet. This is a complete retcon of the Presence.

No it isn't. We showed you an entire list of evidence that connects the Source and the Presence and you basically said it was old and doesn't matter anymore. It's not a retcon. The Presence has always been the true god of DC.

Perpetua didn't use this energy though and she's specifically referred to as being more powerful and feared then all the other creators.

And? The Judges of the Source sent a servant of their own to pimp-slap her. To say nothing of the Judges themselves, or the Source itself.

Not based off Nil's previous position which was in the Overvoid.

Everything is in the Overvoid. It's position didnt move, but it was leaked into the Overvoid because of the destruction of the Source Wall.

Nil's current position isn't even known

Read Multiversity.

All we know is that it was "formed with the current universal structure" which is obviously different from the previous structure during the time of Final Crisis as I've already mentioned.

Where is your evidence that the "universal structure" changed since Final Crisis? Where is your evidence for this definition of "universal structure?"

I did something far easier. I just asked the author of that scene what it meant, and if it meant a different Nil, and he said it was the same Nil, which was never destroyed, just wiped out of all life.

When did I argue Mandrakk being beneath Hecate? You mean the Presence? That's basically he actually was mentioned in the comic twice, which means he was relevant to the event

You've argued that Hecate is beneath Perpetua.

You mean lying and being misleading.

Literally just quoting the comic, but okay.

It also doesn't make sense since she was literally in the Source Wall. Unless you're suggesting that she was utilizing her power to effect the multiverse outside of the Source Wall

Why would she need to affect something outside the Source Wall? Nil is inside of it, like Grant Morrison said.

@boutatakeanl: Is it her power though? All it saids is that she "whispered" as in she tried to communicate. I don't see how that involved "her power."

However, you share a good point. But a human in one universe in a DC comic couldn't just kill their neighbor and start a crisis where the entire multiverse gets devoured.

You need to be powerful to instigate something that would reach as far as a threat to the whole multiverse.

Actually this is exactly how it works. Maybe not a human but the action that instigates something doesn't have to be large. An example is Orion's death is what's said to have triggered Final Crisis. Krona looking into the beginning of everything is what triggered COIE. Flash going back into the past is what triggered flash point.

The result of what is instigated is clearly not reflective of the action required to instigate.

@xearesay: But flashpoint only occurred in one universe. Flash didn't reverse time and cause a flashpoint in every infinite universe. Krona is a multiversal entity. He would be powerful enough for said instigation. Orion has the power to kill Darkseid, making him massively powerful. All are powerful beings that lead to a multiversal crisis. A universal crisis can happen with any small event, but you need power for a multiversal crisis, such as Zero Hour or Crisis on Infinite Earths.

@xearesay: "Is it her power though? All it saids is that she "whispered" as in she tried to communicate. I don't see how that involved "her power."

She didn't try to communicate because her actions carried out. She was powerful enough to affect the actions of a whole ass monitor. If she hadn't "whispered" the crisis wouldn't have occurred.

In other words, her "attempts" at communication succeeded. Just think about the power level you'd need to completely affect the actions of a monitor.

@underfire47: CAS group never disappointed to amaze us

@xearesay:

I knew there would be damage control but this is just pathetic. You are such a Monitor cultist that you should make a religion out of it. Get used to the hierachy of The Presence/The Source > Judges of The Source> Cosmic Raptor > Supercelestials > Nil Monitors/Mandrakk/Thought Robot.

Oh by the way even if she did use "crisis energy" she still got fucking yeeted by The Cosmic Raptor anyways. It's done you have no more arguments.

Glad to finally have this confirmed.

Specifically with regards to Nil and the "current Universal Structure" xearesay is telling a deliberate lie. He's already seen what James Tynion said when asked about it.

https://vimeo.com/429710957

Me: Mar Novu said in that same scene that "Nil was formed with the current universal structure" and some people thought that Nil was like, destroyed, at the end of Final Crisis. Because of that fade to white, it was kind of vague. Is this the same Nil that we know, or was it destroyed and created, in your opinion?

Tynion: I think that this is meant to be the same Nil, but there is no life left on Nil. So the destructive force eliminated all life left there. But then Mar Novu went back there to hide, until he was found it that story.

Snyder: And Grant also like, chimes in and lets us like, gives us pointers and approval on stuff a lot. I talk to him relatively frequently, at least a few times a year while we're working on stuff. So nothing is done in a way that upends anything he wanted to do.

Tynion was directly asked about that exact phrase and whether it indicated a different Nil, one that was recreated after it's "destruction" (a common theory from Michael and xear) and he said no, it's the same Nil. Just devoid of life. Snyder said Grant approves things like this directly after Tynion said it.

He contends we "don't know where Nil is" even though the Multiversity Map that Grant Morrison made tells us exactly where it is. And the map is still being utilized. His argument is because the Anti-Matter universe isn't where it was when the map was first made somehow invalidates the entire thing, which is moronic.

Further, the tombstone from Superman Beyond is literally still there intact, so it wasn't destroyed or recreated. This is the exact same Nil from Final Crisis.

Gallery

Because that isn't relevant to the conclusion. The Source/Presence > Super Celestials. Perpetua going rogue doesn't alter that basic information.

lol yes it is because it reveals more information about Perpetua. Saying it's not relevant is just pure lies in attempt to avoid your clear misleading edits of scans.

Okay? They're still above her.

That's questionable. She's literally threatening to destroy them right now.

Except there are literally other multiverses. Was their Connective energy somehow brought to the DC? Dr. Manhattan was brimming with Connective Energy. It clearly just means all the energy that was available to them.

Who knows. Dr Manhattan was from another reality so no one really knows. All it saids is the Justice League "harnessed all connective energy" and Perpetua "harnessed all crisis energy" in return to match them. And "all" means all. It never dabbles on whether Manhattan had some amount or not. It just says he was "brimming" with it. And since after he gave this power to the JL it saids they had "harnassed all connective energy" we can presume Manhattan had all of it and there is no valid reason not to.

If you're able to manipulate high-cosmic beings then it's a safe bet you're more powerful than them. But it doesn't really matter, it was already directly stated that she is above Nil and that she created the Monitors.

Not every crisis was started from the manipulation of some "higher cosmic being." And manipulation can take place on various levels. Here it's clearly implying communication and not power. She communicatively manipulated other beings of the multiverse into doing things that would lead to crisis events. It's not a resemblance of her own power or anything. It wouldn't make sense if it was since she was literally locked in the Source Wall so she could not effect the multiverse with her own power.

It's also not stated anywhere that she's above Grants placement of Nil. It also never mentions that she created Grants iteration of the Monitors. It's mentioned that she created the Monitor brothers. That's it...

No it isn't. We showed you an entire list of evidence that connects the Source and the Presence and you basically said it was old and doesn't matter anymore. It's not a retcon. The Presence has always been the true god of DC.

Because the Sources current positon was moved up and the Presence's current position was still being identified as the "heavenly creator." And the Source is not the "heavenly creator" so there was a clear disconnection between their identities and how writers were displaying them. He also is not the supreme being and this is a notion that is continuously contradicted and was spread by youtubers to audiences of people who don't read the comics.

If anything, it seems more like the Presence is in aspect of the Source.

And? The Judges of the Source sent a servant of their own to pimp-slap her. To say nothing of the Judges themselves, or the Source itself.

Ok... That doesn't change anything about what I said. They're still her brethren despite the uncertain hierarchy of power that may exist within them.

Everything is in the Overvoid. It's position didnt move, but it was leaked into the Overvoid because of the destruction of the Source Wall.

That's in reference to the entire multiverse as a structure. Nil itself is individually in the void and that was referenced multiple times during Final Crisis and during non canon titles. Grant also ignored DOTNG so that doesn't explain anything.

Read Multiversity.

I did. Saids the Monitors left a vacuum after their death which the Empty Hand and The Gentry came to occupy.

Where is your evidence that the "universal structure" changed since Final Crisis? Where is your evidence for this definition of "universal structure?"

I did something far easier. I just asked the author of that scene what it meant, and if it meant a different Nil, and he said it was the same Nil, which was never destroyed, just wiped out of all life.

Different cosmologies... We already argued this same thing on Spacebattles and you got told off for trying to utilize some arbitrary threshold of change. Also what the hell do you mean "where is your evidence for the definition of universal structure." Like what????????????

To bad he said before that that this is merely his interpretation and that the scene can be read in different ways. You act like writers all agree with each other... When a writer gives you a caution warning to treat what he's saying as having no bearing on the comic you obey that caution warning.

You've argued that Hecate is beneath Perpetua.

Yes but what does that have to do with Mandrakk???? Like what are you even talking about???

Why would she need to affect something outside the Source Wall? Nil is inside of it, like Grant Morrison said.

Nil is drawn outside of it on a map that is not actually reflective of where Grant placed it during Final Crisis.