Xeno Goku. Vs Medaka(medaka box)

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NoMight109

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No morals

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Transcendlimitless

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From that what I've heard, both scale to multiversal, with the difference that Medaka has way surperior hax. Xeno Goku is way too much based on physical force to actually harm a being with high hax potent powers.

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TheWatcherKing

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TOPAZZZ

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From that what I've heard, both scale to multiversal, with the difference that Medaka has way surperior hax. Xeno Goku is way too much based on physical force to actually harm a being with high hax potent powers.

none of them are multiversal

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Bossmountain

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#5  Edited By Bossmountain

@topazzz:

@topazzz said:
@transcendlimitless said:

From that what I've heard, both scale to multiversal, with the difference that Medaka has way surperior hax. Xeno Goku is way too much based on physical force to actually harm a being with high hax potent powers.

none of them are multiversal

Xeno Goku is multiversal and Medeka is in no way shape form or interpretation even approaching Multiverse levels. Not only do characters in Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes Have multiversal feats they shown to have combat application for them.

Time Breaker Goku Black's Scythe was powerful enough to rend time and space creating a interdimensional rift connecting numerous timelines. Which he then use to drag characters from other timeline to assist in battle Be reminded Dragon Ball Z timelines are larger than normal time lies as they consist of 12 universes not just 1.

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We later and get to see a bigger extend to how much damage the time Rift is scythe was able to rend the time and space of GT timeline an alternate Future Trunks timeline the current timeline and even the time Nest which is located within the center of the Multiverse. In addition the others that were implied earlier.

So even if we don't scale on the Demigra who did destroy a Multiverse we can still scale him to time breaker black.

Even if we ignore Goku black there Feats like Mira being able to absorb Toki Toki egg which would hatch it supposed to give birth to a new time line consisting of 12 universes.

And even if we ignore that there's also punish Zamasu from the Dragon Ball Heroes anime who was able to to survive Zeno's timeline collapse and only lost an eye from it.

And even if you want to ignore that there's also time breaker Bardock and mira at the battle that supposedly destroyed multiple timelines.

Medeka on the other hand has absolutely zero feats or statements that place her Beyond Universal level.

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Haddockus

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#6  Edited By Haddockus

The best form of Baseline Multiversal Hax is when you are changing the ideas of a Conceptual Story that CONTAINS the narratives that Archetypes for Reality (ie) Physics, Quantums, Space-Time, Gravity, whatever. (Sometimes the narratives are, conceptual "forms").

No, this is not Outerversal (I do not recognize that) but not only are you completely immune to any form of Physics based attacks, you are completely immune to the Hax/Narratives that forms the basics and basis that allows even the Conceptual Root of Physics: Quantum/Space/Time/Mathematics to exist to begin with.

But this does not mean you are beyond Dimensions. That, is extremely stupid. Dimensions and Space-Time need not be limited to what is narrated. It can be in the form of narratives too.

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poeticwarrior

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#7  Edited By poeticwarrior

I still don't know how he could kill someone who could make all your attacking efforts into nothing, even if she died, she would just reverse all of your efforts, or she would just erase you, or reflect all your attacks back to you, or open up your wounds and have you dropped death, or she could just simply seal all your power and hax with Bookmaker, especially when All Fiction could erase "time" it takes for her to inflict bookmaker and erase all your powers, and "skipping" the time for her to use the attack. Medaka is not scaled by fighting power but by the hax. Your power is irrelevant once it is sealed, and it literally take no time for her to use it on you if she combines All Fiction and Bookmaker together, it's like the screw would suddenly appear on you since she "erases" the time it takes for her to use Bookmaker and remove your power and stat difference. It's not like killing her would do anything. It's not like in a random encounter, he would somehow pull a bunch of characters to fight someone understats. I don't think he could pull anyone and choose he could pull, why not just pull Zeno or Beerus or Whis and work for him? I would back Medaka but don't care too much either ways since I wanna erase that horrible game from my memories.

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MoneyyJunee

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Been done. Medaka curbstomps

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mwarren100

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#9  Edited By mwarren100

Goku curbstomps.

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deactivated-5d8f40b39d851

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Goku stomp

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johnsmjs36

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AllFiction solos.

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Bossmountain

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AllFiction solos.

All fiction at most universe level erasesal.

Punished Zamasu got hit with Zeno 12 universes/timeline erasal and only lost an eye..

The all fiction is nothing.

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Haddockus

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#13  Edited By Haddockus

@bossmountain said:
@johnsmjs36 said:

AllFiction solos.

All fiction at most universe level erasesal.

Punished Zamasu got hit with Zeno 12 universes/timeline erasal and only lost an eye..

The all fiction is nothing.

All-Fiction has superior potency/hax behind it. It is inferior only in range. But It erases you conceptually, Goku's power is only based on physics-distortion/dissarrangement. And is nowhere deep enough in potency for Goku to resist it.

Now... You are talking like the Marvel Bois when they argue MOAR PHYSICS SPACE MORE POWER, which means nothing. I think it was Marvel fans who perpetuated this lie to begin with, which lead to senseless Dimensional Tiering that VSbattles uses.

There are different qualitative levels of reality warping, or what is superior to reality warping. (pick your poison),

Absolute Archetypes > Narratives (Plot Manipulation, Hax, Idea or Concept Manipulation) > Reality Warping (Quantum, Physics, Molecules, Space, Time, Vectors, Mathematics). In that order.

Archetypes are superior because they define the possibility for any kind of Hax to output an outcome to exist to begin with. Which is something both DC and Elder Scrolls specialize at.

Goku is at the bottom level of the spectrum. He distorts reality, but only at its surface level. He has no feats of changing the narratives or the "forms" of abstractions, that made it even conceptually possible for those physics to exist to begin with.

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Transcendlimitless

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@haddockus said:
@bossmountain said:
@johnsmjs36 said:

AllFiction solos.

All fiction at most universe level erasesal.

Punished Zamasu got hit with Zeno 12 universes/timeline erasal and only lost an eye..

The all fiction is nothing.

All-Fiction has superior potency/hax behind it. It is inferior only in range. But It erases you conceptually, Goku's power is only based on physics-distortion/dissarrangement. And is nowhere deep enough in potency for Goku to resist it.

Archetypes > Narratives > Hax > Reality Warping > Physics Destruction

In that order.

You are talking like the Marvel Bois when they argue MOAR PHYSICS SPACE MORE POWER, which means nothing.

He even argued that hax is a fake fan made term, when it's there to describe complex powersets and potency of metaphysics. Calling it ''flat'' is not the case.It's there to describe potency of something, which tops raw power in most cases. And he also argued because google doesn't say so, it holds no volume. Yeah. Conceptual arracks, after logic, tops physical power in potency.

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ThisIsAUsername

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Medaka.

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Bossmountain

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@bossmountain said:
@johnsmjs36 said:

AllFiction solos.

All fiction at most universe level erasesal.

Punished Zamasu got hit with Zeno 12 universes/timeline erasal and only lost an eye..

The all fiction is nothing.

All-Fiction has superior potency/hax behind it. It is inferior only in range. But It erases you conceptually, Goku's power is only based on physics-distortion/dissarrangement. And is nowhere deep enough in potency for Goku to resist it.

Archetypes > Narratives > Hax > Reality Warping > Physics Destruction

In that order.

You are talking like the Marvel Bois when they argue MOAR SPACE MORE POWER, which means nothing.

Base off what? Definitely not feats or statements

First of all we have no idea how Zeno erasing works.

In the series we know that Zeno's erasing abilities can affect Immortal incorporeal being that have merged and rewrote the law of the universe was well ss the afterlife . And according to the manga it could erase an entire timeline. Which is a pretty big deal mean that he didn't just physically destroy it he basically made it so that he's timelines never existed . Not sure how you came to conclusion of Destruction was purely physical base?

.

Even if the all fiction could make it so that the Universe never existed in the first place it's still not more potent than zeno who did the same thing to 12 universes . And punished Zamasu survived that

It's not rocket science.

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DoctorDaMn

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Xeno carrot 🎂 wins

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Bossmountain

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#18  Edited By Bossmountain

@transcendlimitless: well first of all Hax are not a real term. It's a term that was invented and almost exclusively used by the verses community it also doesn't have an agreed-upon definition.

My talking was that people like to use the concept of Hax to avoid a burden to prove claiming that since their ability should ignore stats just because another character with a similar ability could stats.

Also these hax survived objectively more powerful erasing hax so the all fiction is weak sauce. Undoing the existence of a single universe doesn't beat multi timeline erasing.

Also don't know how you guys came to the conclusion that Zeno erasing a time line is physical base since you can't erase a timeline using just physical power.

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NarutoUzumakiMedakaKurokami

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All fiction blink all Db multiverse out of existence

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Haddockus

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#20  Edited By Haddockus

@bossmountain:

Base off what? Definitely not feats or statements

I'll leave that to other debaters. Because from what I know, Medaka has the potentials to Multiversal power.

First of all we have no idea how Zeno erasing works.

In the series we know that Zeno's erasing abilities can affect Immortal incorporeal being that have merged and rewrote the law of the universe was well ss the afterlife . And according to the manga it could erase an entire timeline. Which is a pretty big deal mean that he didn't just physically destroy it he basically made it so that he's timelines never existed . Not sure how you came to conclusion of Destruction was purely physical base?

When I say Physics, I am talking about Physics Space-Time, not physical as in matter.

Incorporeality can still be under the domain of Mathematics/Science/Physics. In Dragonball, this is the case. That is why there are two Zenos.

A perfect example of this is in DC, where we see that even ghosts like Deadman is still under the influence of Quantum Timeline Split and he is not beyond it.

The division between Physics-Space-Time and Metaphysics can be murky at the low degrees when we talk about Baseline Multiversals.

Even if the all fiction could make it so that the Universe never existed in the first place it's still not more potent than zeno who did the same thing to 12 universes . And punished Zamasu survived that

It's not rocket science.

Zeno is certainly still affected Time-Manipulation. Make no mistake, there are Two Zenos now and they do not transcend the Perspective of 4-Dimensional Time, forget 5-Dimensional Time. And these Two Zenos do not share a mono-perspective of existence.

There are Multiversal (and even Metaphysical) beings who do not transcend the lowest degrees of time at all.

An example of a being who can transcend the perspectives of Quantum Time is Living Tribunal, wherein all versions of himself share the same entity because this being transcends the low-degrees of dimensional time and can transcend it and not be affected by Quantum Division/Separation

Another example is Captain Allen from DC Comics who can literally summon Quantum Clones of himself, and can transcend all perspectives wherein all versions of him are the same abstract entity across all Dimensions..

In Dragonball, I have not seen such a thing yet. And some sort of potent Time Manipulation can in fact elude him.

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Bossmountain

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@bossmountain:

I'll leave that to other debaters. Because from what I know, Medaka has the potentials to Multiversal power.

...based off what exactly? Still waiting for someone to post multiverse feats for her.

When I say Physics, I am talking about Physics Space-Time, not physical as in matter.

Incorporeality can still be under the domain of Mathematics/Science/Physics. In Dragonball, this is the case. That is why there are two Zenos.

A perfect example of this is in DC, where we see that even ghosts like Deadman is still under the influence of Quantum Timeline Split and he is not beyond it.

The division between Physics-Space-Time and Metaphysics can be murky at the low degrees when we talk about Baseline Multiversals.

You know was bleeding into other timelines and in Xenoverse he bled his way into the time Nest which is located within the heart of the Multiverse. So know if the hax was purely physical base I doubt that it could work on a being who can exist simultaneously within multiple timelines and what in the heart of the Multiverse. Well obviously Zeno himself is not above the concept of time his erasing ability doesn't seem to care about that.

Zeno is certainly still affected Time-Manipulation. Make no mistake, there are Two Zenos now and they do not transcend the Perspective of 4-Dimensional Time, forget 5-Dimensional Time. And these Two Zenos do not share a mono-perspective of existence.

There are Multiversal (and even Metaphysical) beings who do not transcend the lowest degrees of time at all.

An example of a being who can transcend the perspectives of Quantum Time is Living Tribunal, wherein all versions of himself share the same entity because this being transcends the low-degrees of dimensional time and can transcend it and not be affected by Quantum Division/Separation

Another example is Captain Allen from DC Comics who can literally summon Quantum Clones of himself, and can transcend all perspectives wherein all versions of him are the same abstract entity across all Dimensions..

In Dragonball, I have not seen such a thing yet. And some sort of potent Time Manipulation can in fact elude him.

I already pointed out that wall Zeno himself isn't beyond the concept of time is erasing ability can easily trendsend and destroy timelines. Infinite zamasu was bleeding into other timelines and in Xenoverse he bled so much into other timelines that he made his way into the heart of the Multiverse and was still blink out of existence regardless.

Saying the all fiction has the potential to Blink beings that can exist simultaneously in over 9000 universe is bull crap we haven't even gotten so much as a universal+ level feat out of this hack.

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Bossmountain

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@narutouzumakimedakakurokami: sorry chump what is there any proof of the all fiction can erase more than a single Universe you do know the Dragon Ball Heroes universe has at bare minimum has over 9,000 universe total.

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Transcendlimitless

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@transcendlimitless:

My talking was that people like to use the concept of Hax to avoid a burden to prove claiming that since their ability should ignore stats just because another character with a similar ability could stats.

Hax is really just a givin definition to metaphysical powersets, etc. which is why more power isn't all, since conceptual abilities are qualitative surperior to raw stats and power. Which is why arguing: ''HAX DASN'T EXIST'' is hilarious, since it's qualitative surperiority. Conceptually erasing a universe is more impressive than destroying a multiverse, because it is qualitative surperior to raw power and more complex in power sets, etc.

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Bossmountain

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@transcendlimitless: no it's not!! That's just your interpretation of what a hack is out of all the verses sites I've been to not one of them mentioned the bean metaphysical is a requirement for something to be a hax!

"Hax is something that should grant a significant advantage over opponents with equal statistics." - https://vsdebating.fandom.com/wiki/Hax

"Hax is basically an ability or abilities that give a character a massive unfair advantage because their opponent(s) cannot counter them." - https://www.deviantart.com/keyblademagicdan/art/The-Definition-of-Hax-in-vs-debates-708215496

Hax or "Hacks", also known as a "Broken"ability, is a term used to denote special abilities that a character or object can utilize which ignore or circumvent conventional durability to varying degrees. They can be offensive, defensive or both in nature and often are what allow physically weaker characters to sometimes defeat physically stronger characters.- https://animevscomics.fandom.com/wiki/Hax

Notice how all these definitions are not really the same nor do they agree with your definition about an ability needing to be metaphysical to be a hax it's almost like this doesn't have an agreed-upon definition aside from just "broken power"

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zgtfreak

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@poeticwarrior: I still don't know how he could kill someone who could make all your attacking efforts into nothing, even if she died, she would just reverse all of your efforts, or she would just erase you, or reflect all your attacks back to you, or open up your wounds and have you dropped death, or she could just simply seal all your power and hax with Bookmaker, especially when All Fiction could erase "time" it takes for her to inflict bookmaker and erase all your powers, and "skipping" the time for her to use the attack. Medaka is not scaled by fighting power but by the hax. Your power is irrelevant once it is sealed, and it literally take no time for her to use it on you if she combines All Fiction and Bookmaker together, it's like the screw would suddenly appear on you since she "erases" the time it takes for her to use Bookmaker and remove your power and stat difference.

Been done. Medaka curbstomps

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Jucaslucasa

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He probably kills her a few times before she uses All Fiction, which seems to be her only hope, really. He'll need some way to negate AF or destroy her mind/soul to keep her dead for real.

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Bossmountain

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#27  Edited By Bossmountain
@zgtfreak said:

@poeticwarrior: I still don't know how he could kill someone who could make all your attacking efforts into nothing, even if she died, she would just reverse all of your efforts, or she would just erase you, or reflect all your attacks back to you, or open up your wounds and have you dropped death, or she could just simply seal all your power and hax with Bookmaker, especially when All Fiction could erase "time" it takes for her to inflict bookmaker and erase all your powers, and "skipping" the time for her to use the attack. Medaka is not scaled by fighting power but by the hax. Your power is irrelevant once it is sealed, and it literally take no time for her to use it on you if she combines All Fiction and Bookmaker together, it's like the screw would suddenly appear on you since she "erases" the time it takes for her to use Bookmaker and remove your power and stat difference.

@moneyyjunee said:

Been done. Medaka curbstomps

is there any proof the bookmarker can suppress higher dimensional power especially since no one in that verse has any.

And is ignoring the obvious fact that characters in Dragon Ball in general can resist the Hax of weaker characters

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MoneyyJunee

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@bossmountain: Can Goku resist Reality Warping? After all, Reality Warping > Strength

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Bossmountain

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@moneyyjunee:

yes. Actually . Because according to the lore of Dragon Ball Heroes having Divine ki or God ki gives the user a bunch of hack resistance .

He also resisted Android 21 the ability to suppress people's power down to her level. Beings with divinity cannot be affected by Android 21's waves, which can nullify powers.

Since apparently beings with divine energies powers cannot be suppressed. They're also apparently immune to mind and soul manipulation.

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MoneyyJunee

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#30  Edited By MoneyyJunee

@bossmountain: Can God Ki resist hax like Medaka? If not, Goku still loses. It sounds like you’re just exaggerating the term “God Ki”

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Lsoon23

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Spite mismatch in Medaka's favor, weaker characters in Medaka Box could solo.

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Haddockus

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@lsoon23 said:

Spite mismatch in Medaka's favor, weaker characters in Medaka Box could solo.

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mwarren100

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adamantine

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Goku gets his ass kicked.

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Bossmountain

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@lsoon23: @moneyyjunee:according to the various respect threads

Resistances:

Magic - Demigra stated his Magic wouldn't work on Goku.

Mind Manipulation - Demigra was unable to take over Goku's mind.

Power Nullification - It was stated that beings with divinity cannot be affected by Android 21's waves, which can supress powers to her level

Memory Erasure - Android 21's waves have also shown to be able to erase memories, as shown with Krillin.

Soul Manipulation - Survived Shroom stealing his soul energy and attacking his soul directly.

BFR - Slapped away an attack from Demigra, which had previously sent Beat back in time.

Transmutation - Far more powerful than SSJ Vegito and Time Patroller Trunks, both of whom could fight after being turned into candy.

Time Manipulation - Far more powerful than lesser Demon Gods, who were unaffected by Chronoa's time-based abilities.

Emphatic Manipulation - Demigra's evil influence could not affect Goku's behavior

And while he himself has not shown this other characters were weaker than him has survived hax erasing of entire time lines.

Funny how everyone is arguing that medaka wins cuz bookmarker +all fiction = GG.it's not guaranteed to work at all. Goku has resisted character to bring down his stats as well as weaker characters resistant far more potent erasing haxs.

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Bossmountain

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#36  Edited By Bossmountain

@haddockus: @adamantine: Is anyone actually going to present an argument for why she would win?

The guy could most likely resist book marker and the all fiction.

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MoneyyJunee

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@bossmountain: No Reality Warping feats? Then he gets erased, unless you provide me with something. All I asked was Reality Warping feats, and you didn’t give me any.

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adamantine

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@bossmountain: Goku has never been on the universal+ level and he's never faced anything like all fiction.

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etriel

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#39  Edited By etriel

@bossmountain: Nobody presents an argument the same way nobody presents an argument against the Monitor Wankers. It is a boring topic that has been endlessly discussed.

Neither are we phased by Wiki-copy-pastes.

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Bossmountain

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@moneyyjunee: why? exactly when weaker characters have survived stronger erasing Hax.

Also reality warping is a broad term.

Define it!

What specific reality warping abilities that she's going to use to take the win here because it's definitely not the all Fiction or book marker?

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Bossmountain

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@adamantine:

Xeno Goku is multiversal and Medeka is in no way shape form or interpretation even approaching Multiverse levels. Not only do characters in Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes Have multiversal feats they shown to have combat application for them.

Time Breaker Goku Black's Scythe was powerful enough to rend time and space creating a interdimensional rift connecting numerous timelines. Which he then use to drag characters from other timeline to assist in battle Be reminded Dragon Ball Z timelines are larger than normal time lies as they consist of 12 universes not just 1.

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We later and get to see a bigger extend to how much damage the time Rift is scythe was able to rend the time and space of GT timeline an alternate Future Trunks timeline the current timeline and even the time Nest which is located within the center of the Multiverse. In addition the others that were implied earlier.

So even if we don't scale on the Demigra who did destroy a Multiverse we can still scale him to time breaker black.

Even if we ignore Goku black there Feats like Mira being able to absorb Toki Toki egg which would hatch it supposed to give birth to a new time line consisting of 12 universes.

And even if we ignore that there's also punish Zamasu from the Dragon Ball Heroes anime who was able to to survive Zeno's timeline collapse and only lost an eye from it.

And even if you want to ignore that there's also time breaker Bardock and mira at the battle that supposedly destroyed multiple timelines.

Medeka on the other hand has absolutely zero feats or statements that place her Beyond Universal level.

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adamantine

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@bossmountain: opening a rift in space time isn't even universal.

Kamui from Naruto tears space open, Cero from bleach can warp and bend space. Are they universal?

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Bossmountain

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@etriel: So in other word you don't actually have a counter so just going to ignore it. Why even make Xeno Goku threads in the first place?

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Bossmountain

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@adamantine: did the rip in time transcend multiple timelines and made it way into the heart of the Multiverse? If so yeah probably.

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adamantine

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#45  Edited By adamantine

@bossmountain:

That still doesn't make him universal he's not destroying a universe.

Only two things you said where universal and neither above it.

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Bossmountain

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@adamantine: you didn't read these other feats did you?

So even if we don't scale on the Demigra who did destroy a Multiverse we can still scale him to time breaker black.

Even if we ignore Goku black there Feats like Mira being able to absorb Toki Toki egg which would hatch it supposed to give birth to a new time line consisting of 12 universes.

And even if we ignore that there's also punish Zamasu from the Dragon Ball Heroes anime who was able to to survive Zeno's timeline collapse and only lost an eye from it.

And even if you want to ignore that there's also time breaker Bardock and mira at the battle that supposedly destroyed multiple timelines.

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Bossmountain

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@adamantine: also yes it does make him Universal if a character raw power can rip time space base across time lines into the heart of Multiverse then yeah is a good chance he is above universe.

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NarutoUzumakiMedakaKurokami

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LOL at over 9,000 universe... what a wank.

All fiction still blinks all DB Multiverse out of existence by accidentally.

DB characters has no counter to All fiction.

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Bossmountain

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#49  Edited By Bossmountain

@narutouzumakimedakakurokami: nope Toki Toki has laid 765 eggs

each one of these eggs hatch into a timeline containing of 12 universes.

Thats 9180 universes.

Then again, people like seth the programmer and Chuck the Cyber cuck claims that there's an infinite number of timelines so pick your poison really

So no 9,000 universes isn't wank claiming that she can all fiction them all away is however since she has yet to do that to even a single Universe let alone over 9000 of them

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Bossmountain

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@narutouzumakimedakakurokami: no counter to all fiction? Pfft!! characters in Dragon Ball Z Heroes have already survived timeline erasing hax far more potent than anything to all fiction has ever generated.

Book markers not going to work cuz character with Divine energy can't have their stats lowered or Powers nullify.