Mace Windu vs Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress

@cuckedcurry:

I'm having a Mace vs Galen CaV with Arkham

Don't worry, Mace < Dooku will get thrown around like the Starkiller clone on Kamino

@dark-sith123 said:

LMAO.

CuckedCurry

@cuckedcurry

that is absolutely as bad my child

Vader was wiped out by ANH Luke and hahaha Maul so beating him is light work

I never said otherwise. I was merely pointing out that beating Vader does put Galen closer to Sidious than Vader so of course naturally Galen being close to Sidious is nowhere near as lolworthy a position.

The Sidious feat is stacked with circumstance after circumstance, don’t act like it isn’t

You attributing made up circumstances to a fight that was in no way circumstantial does not make it so. Why don't you try proving it?

@dark-sith123

thrown around like the Starkiller clone on Kamino

Really...?

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Credit; The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Still sad your boy got trounced I see...

:)

So a plot based distraction leading to a disarm is superior to Mace straight up forcing him into a bad situation and splitting the blade in two?:

he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

My Lord where do they get this nonsense from?

@hope_w: Are you responding to me?

If so I never posted anyone disarming anyone nor did I say anything I've posted was better than Mace's feat against Sidious.

@arkhamasylum3:

My boy isn't the one that got ragdolled by a holding back Vader. Your little extract would also be relevant had Vader not tossed Starkiller away. And no, killbilly's excuse was debunked in ISV's blog.

Don't turn Marek into Scheissen Solo

@dark-sith123:

My boy isn't the one that got ragdolled by a holding back Vader.

In which version of events? As far as I'm concerned in the Wii version Marek lost focus per The Prima Guide, in the XBOX/PC/PS3 version(s) Vader did not hold his TK domination over Galen and the latter breaks free of his choke later going onto overwhelm Vader with a lightning barrage in a direct display of superiority, in the DS version the reverse happens with Galen pummeling Vader with TK at the end of the fight, in the comic Galen overpowers Vader in a saber lock and sends him flying with a Force Push and in the novel Galen overpowers Vader (previously cited).

As for Vader "holding back" that's far too lengthy a discussion and one I will address in full in my rebuttal to ISV's blog. For now remain patient.

Furthermore none of this is relevant given ISV conveniently forgot to address the most important part of any Vader vs Starkiller debate (the exhaustion argument).

Your little extract would also be relevant had Vader not tossed Starkiller away.

Regardless of whether Vader tossed Galen away after Galen still had an opportunity to kill Vader which means anything Vader did after that is irrelevant as he'd be killed every time before he could accomplish that (especially given him tossing Galen away does not prove superiority) which ends the discussion i.e. Vader dies dark-sith123 cries. Plus Galen was distracted when Vader tossed him away.

And no, killbilly's excuse was debunked in ISV's blog.

Don't turn Marek into Scheissen Solo

No it wasn't. Galen was distracted and nothing contradicts this in fact ISV openly acknowledged it in his blog lmao.

The most he offered for a counter was that it was Vader's TP which obviously wasn't the case given anyone who has played TFU 2 knows Galen gets these flashes consistently throughout the game. If I missed anything I'd like you to point it out so I can address it.

In other words accept it:

Galen>Vader.

For anyone who actually read the blog- this is a general message- the creator of the blog did not "forget" to address that part of the argument. He outright stated that he would address it in another time as that was "another debate in itself". This is one of those moments of "missed opportunity", such as the clone or Galen Marek or whoever "having the opportunity to kill X" but failing.

@dark-sith123: He's admitted to me on Discord that he thinks the (exhaustion) argument is infallible hence why he didn't address it. Unlesss his stance has somehow changed in light of new evidence we're all not aware of (that I'd love to debunk) his position doesn't seem to be one of somene willing to address an argument.

Anyway apologies for the hostiility in my post (I just realised it sounds rather hostile) and I'll try to play down the hostility in subsequent posts (if you respond that is).

@arkhamasylum3: I do not appreciate you using my words and twisting them, call me out next time please. No, I said it was DIFFICULT to debunk, but my dedication has now rewarded me with a possible way of dealing with it as I said in a separate blog. I do not believe the exhaustion argument and I will be addressing it soon.

@in-sidiousvader: Fair enough. I even noted your stance could have changed and I was not aware of this recent development.

lmao literally laughing my ass off people think mace wins lmao ventress solos lmao

lol look at this dude lol

@anti-bully: are you serious... i mean dooku could win but ventress...

Old Dookie takes it, much to the dismay of @dumbass12

no, if they faced each other

That's obviously one of the dupe accounts of a joker, don't take seriously the new accounts in this site.

Mace already trashed Ventress in the comics, she is no match for Mace in 1 v 1.

@erkan12: Mace never trashed Asajj.

Kolar "thrashed" a Vos that wasn't even trying to hurt him and had been given instruction to surrender if things got out of control. Dooku completely stomped a more powerful dark side immersed Vos later in the war.

Windu wins.

Vos vs Kolar being any less legitmate than one being easily defeated in a sparring match makes no sense going by the comic.

Mace dies, good fight

@arkhamasylum3: You've been highballing Dooku a lot bro. Mace is superior to him by ROTS

Heres what happens. Mace stomps Ventress and then beats Dooku in a mediocre fight.

@deadlyeyes: Any counters other than "muh highballing"?

If you're going to respond to me at least make it productive.

@arkhamasylum3: On another thread you said he solos Bane and Zannah. That is highballing. Mace as of ROTS could contend with Palpatine as per Lucas, and he actually bested him in lightsaber combat. Look at Dooku's fight against Yoda. He contended with him for a little bit, and then he eventually retreated which means if he had continued to fight he would have definitely lost. Also you could make an arguement that Yoda was holding back, since Dooku was once a Jedi. So yeh Mace's performance against Sidious&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Dooku's performace against Yoda. Mace&amp;gt;Dooku as duelists.

Mace also managed to survive through Palpatine's lightning while fending it off with his lightsaber. That to me indicates he has superior power over Dooku.

So Mace&amp;gt;Dooku in force.

Not a Mace fan, but doesn't Rendevous imply they are equals?

SoD shouldn't really be taken as Legends, but even so, Maul grew far more powerful and is likewise faintly implied Dooku's superior within the source itself. Mentioning this will be a weird mottling of canon and legends, but given AEYNTK confirms it, in a saber duel at least, it is clear Maul is written based on a vastly different placement. My point is it's flawed to draw any connections between Dooku and Maul and try to connect that to Windu and Dooku, even accepting SoD under Legends. Selectively drawing SoD simply to perpetuate a narrative that only has credence because outside executive decisions have split the policy of canon, should be its own special version of cherry picking imo. An accolade conveniently gets eliminated while the fight feat between Maul and Mace exists.

But Dooku has no fights against Maul or Sidious that connect to Mace. The closest you can get is Sidious making Dooku his pet with a choke on a hologram, which shows he'd fair the exact same as Maul, or Mace in a Force contest. All three of these characters are demonstrably verpowered by his Force tier. I'm expecting to hear some argument that Sidious choking Dooku doesn't show he can break his barrier, somehow, because Dooku would be afraid Sidious would react violently, which is speculative at best. I could suggest that Sidious would admire his apprentice's strength. He did so with Vader, telling him to "defend" himself. Defending isn't initiating an attack. If Dooku were to try striking at Sidious, then I could agree that Sidious would likely kill him. I could also suggest he should repel the attack because masters may go overboard

Speculation aside, Yoda is so laughably far ahead of Dooku by his casual handling of Dooku's attack potency. Can you show me another apprentice who has been choked by a master near to a similar Force tier in any other Legends sources? By that point, the apprentice should be well on his way to killing the master, not looking for outside help from people like Savage Opress, who, by the way, has also ragdolled Count Dooku after induced rage. Another person Sidious can easily ragdoll whilst ragdolling another.

Sidious can break Mace's defenses without effort.

Sidious can arguably five shot unamped Mace Windu in a saber fight through sheer power

Sidious can exhaust Mace to the point of near defeat while he even has a saber

Sidious can ragdoll Maul and Savage, who *has* choked Dooku and Ventress simultaneously.

Sidious can ragdoll Dooku from what I witnessed over a holocall

Yoda can laughably repel all of Dooku's Force attacks with hardly an effort, which fits the Sidious tier structure.

Anakin "can" fondle Dooku with TK on Invisible Hand, and repel anything Dooku can possibly throw at him with the Force. (if you're accepting the c-canon showings from the comic as a "possibility". Which I don't see why not, it fits the narrative of his knowledge of the Force being a joke and all, and Anakin being a canonical equal to Sidious.)

The point of this: All of Mace, Dooku, and Maul repeatedly get merked by the various tier 9's in Force power displays. And two out of three have been merked in a lightsaber fight by a general tier 9. Windu wasn't merked, but evidence suggests he would have been merked as well.

Therefore: I claim your comparisons to be faulty here.

As for Grievous, Dooku has been training him since his birth as Grievous. The short fight on the tram didn't really show anything, other than the fact that Grievous can keep up with Mace. Dooku had a special benefit of training the cyborg, naturally he can take him out just a bit easier.

I still fully agree that Mace has no chance here and dies. But that is because I happen to take teams more seriously than other people on this site. Ventress isn't fodder to Windu. Even if she's dangerously close to it, she won't die just like Secura won't somehow instantly die to Maul, or that Dooku is forced to literally retreat from TCW Kenobi and TCW Anakin despite being greater than either individually, simply because the weaker ones had partners that were so dangerously close to the opponents.

Team still wins this

Mace should win in a good fight, but its not easy. Fighting 2 Darkside Users who are Master/Apprentice is going to do wonders for his Vaapad. Prime Mace is too much for the duo but I could see them winning a few rounds using teamwork.

Lol tbh. Mace can't fight Sidious till he's amped. It's part of his power repertoire granted, but Dooku and Ventress aren't drawing the same level of emotions and residual power as the most powerful Sith Lord in history that has been responsible for endless deaths, and is everything Windu despises. Why should he beat Dooku so easily when Sidious still can blitz from the get-go?

Even if he wins, it's marginally.

@arkhamasylum3:

- Dooku has the massive advantage of knowing exactly how Grievous fights, an advantage that is not only significant by itself, but is also even more influential against an opponent like Grievous. Despite this, Grievous has been noted to have managed to hard-press Dooku in some instances. I'd wager that if Dooku lacked the aforementioned knowledge as Mace did, he too would not best Grievous too easily.

- DR does state parity between the two, however it's clear that by the quote, Dooku is slightly superior as said equality is lost when the ground is shifted. And even then, it's mused that Mace is only "perhaps" equal. But this is all irrelevant as these are Yoda's thoughts. Yoda also says Dooku by the end of the CW cannot challenge him and is a past-prime duelist, however no one on this site seems to believe it. In short, a subjective statement.

- No idea what you mean here. Mace is now below Maul? When did this happen?

- What amp? Woohoo, Mace says he loves the Republic. Boom, he's "ludicrously" amped.

"I think not."

-- terrible BF2 Dooku voice actor

Mace draws on dark side emotion, therefore he is 'amped' against any darksider. How this is so hard to digest is beyond me.

Ventress gets taken down in one move, Mace embarrasses Dooku like Yoda did, in an effortless and outright comical manor.

@deadlyeyes: @keencraft: @lord_tenebrous: Lmao. When I said I wanted to debate someone on this I didn't mean I wanted 3 response out of the blue. I'll work on a response later.

@deadlyeyes:

On another thread you said he solos Bane and Zannah. That is highballing.

Yes...

So? Post boost TPM Sidious was worried about telling Dooku his identity because of how much power the latter wielded suggesting parity between the two. And in case you haven't noticed there's 30 generations of power growth between him, Bane and Zannah. His fights with Sidious's rough equal Yoda (also attest to parity with Sheev).

Mace as of ROTS could contend with Palpatine as per Lucas, and he actually bested him in lightsaber combat.

Lucas given he line edited the Senior Novelization may be aware of Vapaad's functionality. Regardless when he bested Sidious he was amped. Regularly he was hard pressed to overwhelm General Grievous and admitted a fight between them would be a prolonged engagement.

Look at Dooku's fight against Yoda.

The perfect example of why he's better.

He contended with him for a little bit, and then he eventually retreated which means if he had continued to fight he would have definitely lost.

Him losing doesn't tell us anything about his power relative to Mace's. Plus he gave Yoda a hellish fight the second time and a decent fight the first.

Also you could make an arguement that Yoda was holding back, since Dooku was once a Jedi.

Supported by what? The AOTC novel notes Yoda's strikes would have driven through and during Yoda: Dark Rendevous Yoda uses his hate against Dooku with him being noted to be "terrible to behold" on Vjun and he later notes he loves Dooku enough to destroy him.

So yeh Mace's performance against Sidious&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Dooku's performace against Yoda. Mace&amp;gt;Dooku as duelists.

This addresses none of my other comparisons and is flawed because Mace was amped.

Mace also managed to survive through Palpatine's lightning while fending it off with his lightsaber. That to me indicates he has superior power over Dooku.

So Mace&amp;gt;Dooku in force.

While amped once again...

@arkhamasylum3: LOL my bad. Didn't know anyone else was going to bite so quickly

1. Mace's inner darkness was increased massively before his fight with Palpatine therefore making him stronger than usual.

2. Yoda never embarrassed Dooku as we've discussed before (you ran away with your tail between your legs). In AOTC Dooku "held strong" and was noted to be "parrying brilliantly" and this was while he was tired from his previous duel. Then when he fought Yoda on Vjun he gave Yoda a good fight with the latter slowly pushing him back and being very nearly killed several times.

Dooku while already exhausted, held out against Yoda for over half a minute in a dazzling display of swordsmanship. They fought to a stalemate, multiple sources proclaim this and more, and Yoda himself said Dooku fought well. He would even later refer to him as a formidable opponent.

Fact of the matter is that Dooku can indeed press Yoda, and he demonstrated it on Geonosis. Neither Mace nor Yoda can stomp him in sabers, and not Sidious either.

@arkhamasylum3: Pretty sure it was all but stated that Mace had himself back under control by the time of the fight. IIRC, that was stated in the conversation with Obi-Wan and Yoda, which isn't really proof of anything.

@keencraft

Sidious can break Mace's defenses without effort.

Incorrect. If it was "without effort", he wouldn't have needed around a minute or two to overwhelm Mace's defences while he was exhausted.

Sidious can arguably five shot unamped Mace Windu in a saber fight through sheer power

...Except he can't. He failed to when he had the advantage of Mace being caught off-guard, out of Vaapad, and distracted. This is blatant bait, which you know as we literally had a prolonged discussion about this about three weeks ago.

Sidious can exhaust Mace to the point of near defeat while he even has a saber

So? He did the same to Yoda. Is ROTS Sidious now >> Yoda?

Sidious can ragdoll Maul and Savage, who *has* choked Dooku and Ventress simultaneously.

While rage amped. The two then ragdolled him while he was rage amped.

Yoda can laughably repel all of Dooku's Force attacks with hardly an effort

Despite being stated to have struggled somewhat to repel Dooku's lightning (sorry for the lack of quotations, CV is screwing with me today).

which fits the Sidious tier structure.

I'm noticing some discrepancies here.

I do love Comicvine. Mace is apparently nowhere near Sidious or Yoda according to people on here despite 1) counteracting a potentially fatal blast from Sidious while distracted, out of Vaapad and caught off guard while standing literally in front of the now broken window, 2) holding out against an enraged Sidious' lightning despite being exhausted, and 3) being literally stated by the creator of the whole damn franchise - who was also involved with the novel's production - to be a legitimate contender to Sidious. It's blatant ignorance to claim Mace is somehow << Sidious and Yoda when the opposite is stated repeatedly in both statements and feats.

@breakofdawn: @breakofdawn: Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mace Windu