Live Action High Tier PYP Tournament R1: Batman3000 vs geekryan Open for Votes!

She maintained a shield against Cyclops' full-powered blast for about 14 seconds before dispersing his blast. She also maintained her shield against tons of water pressure for roughly 45 seconds WHILE doing about 5 other things at the same time. I'm pretty confident that she could react to Deadshot and hold up a shield against his bullets long enough for Xavier to take over his mind (which would take literally 1 second). And same goes for Spider-Man's webbings.

Why should I believe that she could get up shields before Deadshot's barrage unless she has some type of feat that proves she can react to a bullet which could indicate that she might be able to get shields up in time.

In any combat situation, Martian Manhunter has not hesitated to read his opponent's minds...same goes for any other telepath, including Charles. Also, in the X-Men films, Charles has never shown ANY inclination against reading other's thoughts. So to your answer your question, no, he wouldn't be uncomfortable doing so and would be willing to do so immediately.

Fair enough.

Again, your logic for Deadshot immediately targeting and shooting the two normal humans in the back is quite flawed. He is up against 23 opponents, 21 of which are physically threatening and imposing. There is absolutely no logic that he would immediately target Charles & Jean. Without even having a line of sight, Charles was able to freeze Mystique before she could even pull out her gun (again, I can't find the clip but this happens in DoFP on the White House lawn at the end of the film). Because Deadshot is quicker on the draw than Mystique, even if he were able to raise his gun and fire a few shots before being shut down (and this scenario is unlikely to happen), those shots would most certainly be directed at the giants and Deathstrike. Since Xavier would be in their minds from the start, he would see this coming and shut down Deadshot and the rest of your team in any of the many ways I already explained before he could get a shot off, however.

It's not targeting them because they're human. Fir off I see no why reason he couldn't do such a thing, weeding out the week. The analogy you provided with the fire and the bear was an example of imminent threat. With 13 other people around to rely on, no threat here is truly imminent, especially in a scenario where they would protect their marksman. Once again, Spidey can easily take Giants with webbing and different types for that matter, and Luke can hold off Deathstrike, contrary to your belief, and something I'll argue further in a bit. You've yet to respond to what happens with Spidey and Floyd working as a 1-2 combo. So basically, if Charles works on Floyd than Spidey webs from a distance which should certainly cause him to lose focus for a moment, to once again free up Floyd to shoot once again.

Of course Jean and Xavier would be vulnerable to bullets, but as I already said many times, there is no reason he would target them first. Even if Deadshot's strategy is "shoot everyone", again, unless Charles is targeted for the first bullet, Deadshot would be shut down immediately the moment he raised his gun. This literally comes down to thought vs. action. Sure, maybe it would take a couple of seconds for Jean and Charles to get back and for Deathstrike and the giants to start charging. But if you're assuming Deadshot would immediately open fire the moment everyone spawned, then I can also assume Charles would shut down your entire team the moment everyone spawned. Speed of thought > speed of action.

^^

Great examples of Spidey being creative and versatile with his webbing. However, as I already mentioned, here are the problems:

1) In your first example against Lizard, Peter is in an enclosed tunnel that allows him to be acrobatic and use the ceiling/walls to jump off. In our arena, an open desert, he does not have anything to jump off of except the combatants themselves. This severely limits his agility.

Most of the gif is Spidey webbing AROUND his body, by wrapping around him.

2) In the airport battle, again, Peter is relying on the plane and Ant-Man's size to swing off of. There is nothing similar to that in our arena for him to do that with.

3) In the video with the bank robbers, he used the ceiling and a desk to his advantage.

Fair enough.

There are no ceilings, walls, or random objects in our arena to allow Peter to be as agile and acrobatic as he normally is. Therefore, this severely limits how creative he can be.

That's not the point. Spidey doesn't HAVE to use the methods he used above. Like I said before Spidey can simply web 2 or more Giants together.

I'm feeling like a broken record at this point in regards to debating your strategy, but I'll just clarify something: Charles does not require line of sight in order to use their powers. Also, a man with a gun is much more of an immediate threat than the rest of your team, all of which are primarily melee fighters. Deadshot would be dealt with first and foremost by Charles, and he can be dealt with before he even starts firing.

Once again, with Spidey to fall back on, Charles will no doubt lose focus once he's webbed up by Spidey if this scenario were to occur freeing up Deadshot to once again to do his thing.

He would need to dodge and avoid 15 Frost Giants, both from close and ranged, without enhanced speed/reactions or anything to swing from and jump off of except the giants themselves.

Again, I don't see why Spidey get web together, two or more giants together, web cocoon a couple with Deadshot backing him, etc.

In the MCU, Lady Sif is a normal Asgardian but just highly skilled and trained. She was only slightly bothered by a point-blank range shotgun blast. Unless Deadshot uses a high-powered rifle or very high-caliber bullets, his bullets would barely faze a Frost Giant.

Fair enough.

You're reaching if you're considering what Lady Sif did as "struggling". And again, it was a point-blank range shotgun blast.

Not really. If they're that stunned by a point-blank shot than Deadshot should at least aggravate close range, and then rely on h2h, and stats.

Lady Deathstrike can cut through 5 fodder

I still seriously don't understand how you can think that Deathstrike can slice through fodder, while still dealing with the challenge of Luke. Let's put it like this. Batman's fighting a clearly superior opponent in the form of Deathstroke (Luke and Deathstrike) but can still give him a run for his money, and keep him occupied for a good amount of time. Then, Batgirl, Tim Drake and Damian all hop in (who would more or less be like fodder to someone like Slade). But because they're all so inferior to him, he totally shifts his focus to them, with the clear threat of Batman RIGHT THERE, to take care of "fodder". Doesn't add up right?

and Zoom(with the limited martial arts of DCEU Batman) within seconds.

Limited?

Gives a fighter a tip that helps him win his fight

Warehouse fight

I've already shown you above fight, but you seem to think it's "limited" because he relies on gear. Without gear do you really think he wouldn't have won that fight? Let's be honest here. Batman got tagged by a knife which makes him "limited" right? Or maybe he didn't have to worry about getting tagged, because his suit could take it? Or maybe this isn't one of the cliche action movies, where instead of all ganging up on their target, a group of assailants foolishly attacks one at a time? Which by the way, is a huge reason this feat is more impressive than it looks. Because unlike most live-action CBM fighters i.e. Captain America, Wolverine, Rorschach, etc. (not to say Batman is the most skilled fighter of even these characters) he actually takes on more than ONE opponent at a time.

And they can't do shit against her.

They're not supposed to. They're sole purpose is to be an annoyance, to give Luke whatever advantages he can get.

You're comparing the durability of Luke being able to survive more than a day from 2 non-lethal Judas bullet shots to lasting in a fight against Lady Deathstrike, who can literally slice him in half and end the fight right away. Lady Deathstrike doesn't have enhanced speed to begin with, so she isn't disadvantaged at all. Sure, Luke is a good brawler, but Deathstrike is leagues above him in terms of martial arts and agility.

No, I'm showing the PAIN TOLERANCE of Luke being able to take the bullets, which are more or less supposed to rip apart your insides, and still being able to take on thugs, officers, etc. When has Deathstrike actually, "ripped-someone apart"? I know (or I at least think) you're just making a point, but "ripping him apart" would be close to what it would take. I don't think you can call Luke a quote-on-quote "brawler". I know I did the mistake of calling him that, but a brawler is simply someone who can fight well, but in terms of martial skill, has no experience. As a former officer, Luke is very much a brawler in the way he fights, but not in the terms of the actual definition, if that makes sense. In essence, what I'm trying to say is that Luke isn't really a brawler but not a martial artist either.

Six fodder to rely on to fire guns...? Your SHIELD agents are un-armed.

Isn't guns supposed to be standard gear for them?

EDIT: Totally forgot I was unarmed

Why should I believe that she could get up shields before Deadshot's barrage unless she has some type of feat that proves she can react to a bullet which could indicate that she might be able to get shields up in time.

As I mentioned before, she has no feats against bullets. BUT, she was able to turn around and react to Cyclops' blast. Now I'm not saying his optic blasts are faster than bullets, BUT, she doesn't need to react to a bullet being fired per say; she needs to react to Deadshot raising his gun and aiming it at her/Charles. Based on how quickly she was able to turn around and throw up a shield against Cyclops leads me to believe she can put up a shield by the time Deadshot raises his gun, aims, and shoots.

It's not targeting them because they're human. Fir off I see no why reason he couldn't do such a thing, weeding out the week. The analogy you provided with the fire and the bear was an example of imminent threat. With 13 other people around to rely on, no threat here is truly imminent, especially in a scenario where they would protect their marksman. Once again, Spidey can easily take Giants with webbing and different types for that matter, and Luke can hold off Deathstrike, contrary to your belief, and something I'll argue further in a bit. You've yet to respond to what happens with Spidey and Floyd working as a 1-2 combo. So basically, if Charles works on Floyd than Spidey webs from a distance which should certainly cause him to lose focus for a moment, to once again free up Floyd to shoot once again.

You're contradicting yourself again. First, you suggested he would pick off Jean and Charles because they're the biggest threats, and now you're saying he would pick them off first because they are the weakest.

Peter easily taking 15 Frost Giants...not likely. One hit from a Frost Giant is enough to stagger Thor, so 1 hit is all it would take to throw Peter off and even possibly KO him. He has the agility advantage, but he has never faced 15 superhuman opponents at one time.

I didn't respond to your 1-2 combo because it is pointless. You're stretching Peter and Deadshot way too much to suggest they can work on Jean, Charles, AND the 15 Frost Giants all at the same time. Neither of them have the feats for that.

Also, Charles "working on Floyd" isn't a thing. Telepathy doesn't require lots of time to take effect. Charles can put him down or mind control him and have him shoot up your team way before Peter realizes that it is Charles who is responsible for it, especially if you're having Peter focus on the 15 Frost Giants like you say he will. And Jean wouldn't just be shielding herself. Charles would be behind the shield as well and Peter's webs aren't going to do anything to her shields.

Most of the gif is Spidey webbing AROUND his body, by wrapping around him.

True, but he jumps off the ceiling during the sequence.

That's not the point. Spidey doesn't HAVE to use the methods he used above. Like I said before Spidey can simply web 2 or more Giants together.

He has no feats to suggest he can web up that many superhuman targets together, especially ones that can knock him down in 1 hit and are also tossing ranged projectiles at him.

Once again, with Spidey to fall back on, Charles will no doubt lose focus once he's webbed up by Spidey if this scenario were to occur freeing up Deadshot to once again to do his thing.

And how would Spidey know that Xavier is the reason for Deadshot being shut down, and then deal with the 5 Giants protecting him and Jean shielding them? Especially when he would be focused on dealing with 15 Frost Giants. And as I already mentioned, Jean would have Spidey up and levitated/incapacitated as soon as Deadshot was down.

Again, I don't see why Spidey get web together, two or more giants together, web cocoon a couple with Deadshot backing him, etc.

Because he has no feats to suggest he can do that to more than a dozen superhuman targets at once.

Not really. If they're that stunned by a point-blank shot than Deadshot should at least aggravate close range, and then rely on h2h, and stats.

Is he focusing on Jean & Charles, or dealing with the Frost Giants? He will not be able to do both at the same time. Not only does he not have the feats for that, but both Jean & Charles can take Deadshot out easily and immediately. Having the Super Soldier Serum is a good advantage, but that doesn't increase his agility, and if one hit was enough to stagger Thor and toss him back several feet, then the same hit will put down Cap. Thor's durability > Cap's durability by a huge margin.

I still seriously don't understand how you can think that Deathstrike can slice through fodder, while still dealing with the challenge of Luke. Let's put it like this. Batman's fighting a clearly superior opponent in the form of Deathstroke (Luke and Deathstrike) but can still give him a run for his money, and keep him occupied for a good amount of time. Then, Batgirl, Tim Drake and Damian all hop in (who would more or less be like fodder to someone like Slade). But because they're all so inferior to him, he totally shifts his focus to them, with the clear threat of Batman RIGHT THERE, to take care of "fodder". Doesn't add up right?

That's an absolutely terrible example. Let's put it this way: a powerless/hammer-less Thor was taking out these agents like they were nothing. Lady Deathstrike, a superhuman with claws capable of slicing straight through any human, will be 10x more effective, especially against only 5 agents, as your strategy suggests.

Second of all, how dare you call Batgirl, Tim Drake and Damian "fodder" to Slade?! You should be ashamed of yourself. Fodder to Slade would be a League of Assassins ninja, an Arhkam guard, etc.

I've already shown you above fight, but you seem to think it's "limited" because he relies on gear. Without gear do you really think he wouldn't have won that fight? Let's be honest here. Batman got tagged by a knife which makes him "limited" right? Or maybe he didn't have to worry about getting tagged, because his suit could take it? Or maybe this isn't one of the cliche action movies, where instead of all ganging up on their target, a group of assailants foolishly attacks one at a time? Which by the way, is a huge reason this feat is more impressive than it looks. Because unlike most live-action CBM fighters i.e. Captain America, Wolverine, Rorschach, etc. (not to say Batman is the most skilled fighter of even these characters) he actually takes on more than ONE opponent at a time.

Yes, it is quite limited. He heavily relied on his gear and armour for that fight. DCEU Batman just doesn't have the pure H2H feats needed to make him a big threat to a superhuman like Deathstrike. In that scene, Batman got tagged more than once from fodder mercenaries. If it wasn't for his suit, he would have died. So yes, his martial arts is limited, and yes, without his gear and suit, he would not have come out of that fight alive.

No, I'm showing the PAIN TOLERANCE of Luke being able to take the bullets, which are more or less supposed to rip apart your insides, and still being able to take on thugs, officers, etc. When has Deathstrike actually, "ripped-someone apart"? I know (or I at least think) you're just making a point, but "ripping him apart" would be close to what it would take. I don't think you can call Luke a quote-on-quote "brawler". I know I did the mistake of calling him that, but a brawler is simply someone who can fight well, but in terms of martial skill, has no experience. As a former officer, Luke is very much a brawler in the way he fights, but not in the terms of the actual definition, if that makes sense. In essence, what I'm trying to say is that Luke isn't really a brawler but not a martial artist either.

Pain tolerance doesn't mean much to someone who can slice clean through Luke with 1 strike.

When I said "ripped apart", I meant it as an expression. But she could easily slice through people with her claws, as Wolverine has done.

If you made the mistake of calling him a brawler, then that's on you, and that's something I can use against you.

Isn't guns supposed to be standard gear for them?

Lol, read the OP. "10 un-armed Shield Agents From Thor(1)"

What I'm saying is what Deashot working on a couple, Spidey's webbing should make this a breeze and if you don't have an answer for it than this should be a breeze for Spidey. Just to be clear on what my plan is:

I have given answers for it. Peter, in any version, does not have a feat of being able to web up more than a dozen superhuman opponents. And not only are you suggesting that it will be easy for him to do without getting tagged, but you're also suggesting that he'll have time to help Deadshot with Charles & Jean, who can literally immobile your entire team with a single thought...

1. The Demise of Charles and Jean (intriguing title too.): As Deadshot fires away at your team, assuming Jean has to get her shields up first, they will be made quick work of. Charles "shutting down" Floyd will be a signal that he's a larger threat, and thus to help Floyd Spidey webs him up, to distract him, losing his grasp on Floyd, allowing him to shoot once again at the now much bigger threat.

Although Jean hasn't had any feats against bullets, you can't assume her shields will fall to bullets after her shields have lasted long amounts of time against a full-powered blast from Cyclops and a massive and consistent wave of water.

Again, with Spidey focusing his attention on the Frost Giants, he won't be able to react to what's happening to Deadshot, determine who is responsible, and then take Charles out, all before Charles takes him out as well, or Jean just levitates him and stops him from being able to do anything. Charles can take out Deadshot OR have him fire on Spidey (who will be distracted by the giants) way before Spidey can do anything about it.

2. Spidey and Floyd: The two then shift their attention to the Giants. Deadshot's initial reaction will again be to fire away. After seeing it doesn't cause that much of an effect, he'll than rely purely on stats and h2h to deal with a couple, while Spidey webs his through hoards. With the remaining S.H.I.E.L.D. agents they all shift their attention to Deathstrike. Even if Luke is in critical condition, misson accomplished from this point on. Deathstrike isn't taking on Spidey, Deadshot, potentially Cage, and potentially a couple of S.H.I.E.L.D. agents. Spidey should be able to incap Deathstrike with webbing. Even with claws she wouldn't be able to fully cut her way out, assuming you can even prove she can cut webbing, leaving her defeated.

None of this would even happen, and I'm going to explain why in my next counter. Obviously I can't prove that a FOX Deathstrike/Wolverine can cut through a Sony/MCU Spider-Man lol. But you can't prove that her adamantium claws CANT cut through Spider-Man's webs, so it's an argument that doesn't benefit either of us. But again, it would never come down to that and I will explain why...

1) Although I have responded to each and every one of your statements and arguments throughout the CaV, there have been many of my arguments that you have not addressed. I gave you 4 examples of possible scenarios and you didn't really counter them.

2) As I mentioned throughout the CaV, you contradict yourself at times and say things that I can and did use against you.

3) Although you have perfect teamwork as a perk, you seemed to stretch it too far. To suggest that Spider-Man can deal with 15 superhuman opponents while also providing support to Deadshot against Jean & Charles is a stretch.

4) Even though I don't have perfect teamwork or basic knowledge as perks, Charles can still link my team's minds and read your team's minds, all in a matter of seconds, thus giving me my own version of perfect teamwork and basic knowledge.

5) For a battle like this that involves telepathy and telekinesis, your team simply does not have any valid way to counter them. Your main argument was that Deadshot would be able to identify Charles and Jean as the main threats and shoot them down before they could react, despite the fact that your characters have zero knowledge of my own team and that there is no logical or realistic scenario where this would work.

6) As your team has no defence against telepathy or telekinesis, and since speed is equalized, this battle comes down to the speed of thought vs. the speed of action. I provided many examples of feats from Charles freezing entire groups of people, mentally assaulting a hotel full of people to the point that they could not even move, and of Charles mentally controlling one or more minds at once. And all of these feats happened more or less instantaneously. Charles could end the fight before anyone on your team even has a chance to attack. I provided multiple ways in which Charles could use his telepathy to end the fight right away, and no one on your team has any way to stop him. Charles can shut down just Deadshot or your entire team faster than Deadshot can fire on Charles, even if he were to somehow identify Charles as the biggest threat and target him right off the bat.

7) Even if I didn't rely on Charles immediately and instantly shutting down/freezing your entire team the moment the battle begins, I have provided many examples of how the fight could play out. Here is my favourite:

Jean Grey could levitate Spider-Man (thus incapacitating him), Professor X mind-controls both Luke Cage and Deadshot and has Luke punch out Deadshot while keeping Luke frozen, and Lady Deathstrike and my giants tear through Zoom and your 10 unarmed agents. Lady Deathstrike or a giant can then finish off the immobilized Spider-Man.

This also happens to be one of my main strategies that you never really countered ;)

8) It was fun debating with you, and thank you for being my very first CaV opponent! :)