Kanan Jarrus & Ezra Bridger vs. Kylo Ren & Rey

-versus-

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• Everyone is in their prime, have no physical hindrances, and have their normal equipment
• Battle takes place on Kashyyyk

@SilentBat@emperordmb@i_like_swords@darkdefender@fated_xtasy@brightsteel@georgewbush@soup95@banthabot@wollfmyth209@themuser@thevivas@shootingnova

Team two, Rey can definitely take on Ezra, and Kylo outstrips either of his opponents as a duelist and Force user, as well as physically.

Kylo solos.

Kanan solos

Team 2 solidly

Kanan gets murked by Kylo and Rey together. Kylo alone would probably beat him 10/10.

Team two, no doubt.

Why do people want to debate over these canon scrubs rather than take me on in a legends only thread. :p

@wollfmyth209: HA! Kanan destroys him in every aspect, the only thing Kylo arguably has is the force.

Time for another counter-argument to the Kylo lowballing that has withstood the test of time as nobody so far has managed to dispute it.

I'd wager Kylo stomping Finn(in the top 1% of the First Order Stormtroopers that were trained to fight Jedi) while emotionally hindered(because of killing his father) and physically damaged(by something that tore through Stormtrooper armor and destroyed several rocks with one hit) and killing all of the Jedi Padawans and Knights of Luke's Order with the aid of only a few Knights of Ren and being called as nigh-unstoppable in battle marks him as the better duelist.

Kanan destroying Kylo in any physical aspect? Don't make me laugh. Kanan would've bent over after being shot by Chewbacca's blaster, if not outright died. Durability: Ren.

As far as speed goes, outpacing Finn(who was capable of shooting down several Republic soldiers before they can even properly aim at him, speedblitzed two Stormtroopers trained to face Jedi and dodged close range explosions and grenades) in the physical/emtional wreck of a state he is would mark him at least on par with Kanan, if not above. Speed: Ren.

In terms of strength he displayed some dominance over Finn who's managed to casually knock over, incapacitate and disarm people with his physical strength. He's, again, at least on an even playing field with Jarrus.

Force powers? Kylo's easily the better telepathic, the better telekinetic and is more versatile. Not like I expect any of this to have an impact on you. You'll either ignore this, deny this or come up with another half-baked counter like every other TFA lowballer I debated against.

@wollfmyth209: When did you assume I was lowballing him? I know what Kylo is capable of, and Kanan is superior still. I'll post some stuff later...

@wollfmyth209: Can you put possibly trained to fight Jedi? There's 0 evidence to that they are actually trained for such, other than the Riot weapons having enough durability to withstand a lightsaber. That's hardly any solid reasoning that they were trained as such. I'd rather not have misinformation spread, until it's actually confirmed.

Just because the Riot Troopers have...well Riot gear for you know, controlling Riots, doesn't mean the Riot Troopers are trained to fight Jedi. Their names...imply, they are used for Riot control/tactics/melee weapon fighting.

Because you're the guy/gal who thought Kylo would get schooled by movie version of Jack Sparrow and that Kanan destroys Kylo, which clearly isn't true.

I know what Kylo is capable of,

If you think Kanan can beat him and Rey at the same time and destroy him individually, no, no you're not. Or you rank what he's capable of ridiculously low.

and Kanan is superior still. I'll post some stuff later...

He really isn't, but I'll wait.

They were trained in using lightsaber resistent weapons and Finn mused the only reason why would be to fight Jedi. Plus the fact that the First Order has been hunting down Jedi since they were first introduced in the movie. Clearly not hard to tell they are suppose to be fighting Jedi. Don't see any other reason why they would train/prepare for such an encounter.

@wollfmyth209: I said novel version would win. And in a sword fight, Jack DOES have Kylo beat.(assuming we're allowing the swords to parry)

@wollfmyth209: Yeah, but until they actually shown to fight Jedi, there's no real need to say they are trained for such. RIOT Stormtroopers....the name implies they are used for riot control, not fighting Jedi, the fact that their weapons are strong enough to withstand lightsabers are just that, durability.

Plus Kylo and his Ren people seem to have killed all of the Jedi in Luke's order, so I don't see the point if there's no real Jedi around anyway.

Nah, not really. Anyways, I'm waiting for a case for Kanan.

Weirdly enough the old Empire didn't use RIOT Stormtroopers and they had tons of group control problems themselves. Besides, point a gun or a stun rey to someones face and it'll calm him down one way or another, if it has to get messy. The fact that they are lightsaber resistent means that the First Order(which was hunting down Jedi at this time, and still is) is preparing their soldiers should they come in contact with such a foe. I doubt a common villager or sideline rebel would have access to a lightsaber.

Plus Kylo and his Ren people seem to have killed all of the Jedi in Luke's order, so I don't see the point if there's no real Jedi around anyway.

You never really know. There's always other Force sensitives that one Jedi that got away(Luke) could be training, or maybe some survived. Sorta like Order 66 and stuff.

@wollfmyth209: The GE actually does have Riot Stormtroopers, least in Legends. I guess sure, but if this is misinformation and it spreads and it comes out later say the opposite, I expect that it'll be rectified quickly.

I'd rather have an actual confirmation than vague and pass it off as fact.

@wollfmyth209: It might be awhile, been playing PvZ:GW2. Sooooo fun, except when the enemy is nothing but Roses.....

@wolfrazer: Well we did see Nines fight a lightsaber wielder ;) It might be me jumping the gun, but you never know. The quote, Finn's thoughts and the actions of the First Order heavily imply that's the case.

Dayum, son. I heard that game was awesome... Shame I only got GW 1...

@wollfmyth209: It is, the only problem is Rose is OP AF. There's literally no other reason to play as another plant, nor a reason to try against a team of Roses.

Yeah Kylo Ren Solos them! Pun definitely intended :)

Kylo solos

@americanspeeddemon:

Kanan beat the Inquisitor who was also trained to fight Jedi and has a lot better feats than Finn.

In an enraged/one with the Force-ish state. The Inquisitor was even stated as "far better" than either Kanan or Ezra. And had the advantage over both of them until Jarrus went beserker. An inferior Inquisitor(Seventh Sister) has managed to drive back Kanan.

We really don't know how that happened. It really isn't even a feat as we have literally no knowledge of how they beat him, who did what, events, etc.

We know by the movie, novel and the Visual Dictionary he and a few of the Knights of Ren toppled the newly formed Jedi Order in a Purge-esque way.

He is literally the only jedi around anyone would seem absurdly powerful. Heck some people used to think no one could kill a jedi during their height.

Only the Visual Dictionary(an objective third person source that takes into account pretty much everything regarding the movie, even it's backstory) is what calls him unstoppable.

Kanan has tanked hits from a cyborg who could dent metal and overpower abnormally strong aliens with ease.

Not quite as good as being shot in the gut while emotionally hindered by something that crushed large rocks and killed/tore through groups of Stormtroopers.

In this they should be about even neither have done anything that surpasses the other.

More or less. If I was forced to give an edge it would be to Kylo.

Kanan has by far the better TK feats. He was able to hold a cave in without even trying and he lifted catwalk with ease.

Any indication how large it was? And in any case, Kanan doesn't even abuse his power in combat. Kylo does. Plus he's one-shotted an enraged Rey(who we know is more than likely of the Skywalker lineage and has some amazing innate power) who was actively resisting him while the emotional/physical wreck of a state he was in, and has stopped a blaster bolt mid-flight without so much as batting an eyelash and held it there.

Kanan has better TK and dueling feats he also has resisted mind tricks so it's debateable if those would work on him. Overall Kanan has more and a few better feats overall.

Not really. But he could resist Kylo's TP, more than likely.

Kanan could beat either but Ezra is slightly weaker than both and would lose to either. Overall Kylo and Rey most likely win.

Correction: Kylo can solo. Ezra's a bag of leaves to him to push around.

There are way more effective feats for Kanan than Kylo. With only the first season out, it was reasonable to want to wait and see how he would do before giving him much respect. With the second season well under way, and the Kanan comic coming out consistently, he's got some decent stuff now. Even as a kid he was fighting in the Clone Wars and deflecting a hail of blaster bolts with seemingly little effort, and has beaten more opponents on panel/screen than Kylo. He's potentially faster, in terms of what we've seen, and his agility/use of force jump is excellent: there was a scene in the show a while ago where he pretty much jumped up to attack the underbody of an AT-AT IIRC. Not that Kylo may not be as fast or agile, but we haven't seen it yet.

And there's no reason to think Ezra couldn't beat Rey at this point. He's got a lot more experience and control of his force abilities, and he's got his stun gun/saber mix for added versatility. Anything Rey has done so far is pure luck/potential, mixed in with some decent fighting skills. I think Ezra can beat that.

Ren's main advantage, however, is his ability to freeze people in place. Using this, he can probably win it.

Kylo solos without too much difficulty.

@americanspeeddemon:

He had also endured hours of torture so he wasn't at his best

More mental torture, and was fine afterwards.

That was when he first started hunting him. Even he noted how Kanan had improved overtime and they were nearly equal in their third fight

In their third fight, it was stated the Inquisitor won quickly and decisively, which he did.

She held her own against Ahsoka as well and she is still vastly more impressive than anyone Kylo has fought.

And she's inferior to the GI by canon and drove back Kanan... vastly more impressive than someone who managed to stomp/one-shot Jedi-Killing soldiers in the span of 3 seconds? Highly unlikely.

We don't know how much Kylo did though, we don't know to what extent the new jedi order were trained in combat or even how long they had been training

We can assume they were above younglings and padawans, though. It's a safe bet.

Seems like hyperbole

Objective sources aren't known for being hyperbolic. If it was from the novel, I might buy it.

Meh Kanan has more feats.

Oh WOW.

Seeing the world in slow motion, deflecting multiple blaster bolts at a time and blitzing stormtroopers before they could accurately shoot him.

Finn has rivalling feats, lol.

Here are the quotes for both of the examples i mentioned.

Nothing states how big it is.

She doesn't have very much training.

A life time's worth of self-training to the point of perfecting a staff fighting technique.

Also it is unreasonable to assume she is a Skywalker

Let's see: the Skywalkers lightsaber called out to specifically her, she has learned how to fight in similar/greater speeds than Anakin or Luke, has been noted as having a type of bond to Leia and Han(the former being Luke's sister, the latter his brother in law)...

Unreasonable to assume she is a Skywalker? No.

and Ezra has innate power and great skill (his learning curve rivals Luke's)

No, Ezra's learning isn't curving Luke's, at all. Luke from a year of training managed to go from getting stomped by Vader to stalemating/beating him.

I don't know Kylo just does not have very many feats for me to say he could beat Kanan.

Quality > Quantity. Many feats doesn't mean no feats. By that logic, Sidious and Yoda get murked by Vader because he has so much more feats and exposure than they do.

Kanan has matched or surpassed Kylo in everything.

No.

@americanspeeddemon:

He was being electrocuted as well it was stated he could've died and Ezra had to help him walk afterwards

And then he managed to fight the Inquisitor after a bit of time healing.

But he had to fall back on his force abilities in their duel Kanan was clearly stalemating him.

Stalemating him? He got driven back.

Jedi killing is kinda a little high because as far as we know they have never killed a jedi. Even the training doesn't suggest they'd beat a jedi one-on-one.

Training shows they are being prepared to fight Jedi, so they're at least comparable.

That is an assumption that wasn't presented in the movie. I figured that their weren't any knight class jedi. Snoke took them out before they became a threat imo. I also figured Kylo would be the top of his class and he isn't knight level.

Kylo isn't even Knight level? Hilarious.

I should have said it is hyperbole because he isnt unstoppable. He was actually stopped in the movie

Nigh-unstoppable. And he was stopped due to circumstances.

Can I see Finn's feats rivaling these

Finn dodges blaster fire by tumbling and rolling forward, then proceeds to shoot down two enemies:

Just as the soldier opened fire, FN-2187 dove forward, tumbled into a freshly made crater, and lay flat for a second before popping up on his elbows. He fired twice before dropping down again, then rolled to his right and repeated, firing three times. He was pleased to see that he'd taken out two of the enemy.

Source: Before the Awakening

Finn manages to roll to the ground and throw a grenade before Republic soldiers could get a shot off:

Just before they had their shot, he dropped low, sliding feetfirst toward the edge of the bunker-one hand holding his rifle against his chest, the other going for one of the grenades on his belt. He rolled at the last moment, thumbing the activator hard as he collided sideways with the bunker wall and then, in one smooth motion, bringing his hand up and tossing the grenade through the opening into the bunker. Almost instantly there was the sound and the flash of the explosive detonating. He felt it echo, the vibration running through his armor.

Source: Before the Awakening

Finn speedblitzes two First Order Stormtroopers, albeit he did surprise them by wielding a lightsaber:

It made an excellent target for the stormtroopers who opened fire on them. Taking cover, Han and Chewbacca returned fire. No one noticed the troopers who had come up behind them-except Finn. Charging, he surprised one trooper with the glowing blade of the lightsaber, then another.

Source: The Force Awakens novel

The troopers were as startled as Finn when he sliced through armor, bone, and flesh. Two he cut down immediately.

Source: The Force Awakens junior novelization

It's big enough to kill someone by it falling on them. It's also designed for people to walk on so most likely decently big.

A hand-sized rock can kill a person assuming it

Sorry I meant she had no training defending against the force

She still has extreme innate talent.

Okay the lightsaber was owned by Obi Wan longer than both of the skywalkers put together and It never called to any other Skywalker so we can't say that is a common skywalker trait

Ben had the lightsaber, he didn't use it. And it's a Skywalker's weapon, either way. Plus Ben didn't have a daughter, so there's no reason why the lightsaber would call to her because she's a Kenobi, because it's impossible for her to be a Kenobi. Even chronology wise because she was born nearly 10 years after his death.

Ezra learned the basics of lightsaber fighting in a few months which is quicker than Luke.

Luke learned it after a few hours of training with Ben, though.

It took Luke over 3 years to get that good. Ezra has learned 7-8 years of combat and force training in a few months

7-8 is a loose assumption based off of nothing. There's no indication how skilled he is because he gets wrecked by everyone he fights.

But Kylo doesn't have really many feats at all. His only dueling feats are being fighting a stormtrooper and being tagged and fighting a neophite jedi and losing. Granted he was injured but it's impossible to tell how good he'd be if he wasn't injured.

We can assume he's at least above your standard Jedi Knights.

His force feats are better in versatility but they don't have nearly the power behind them as Kanan's do. He stopped a cave in subconsciously.

I'd say hurling a heavily implied, enraged Skywalker 20 meters backwards, using a Force Barrier on a lightsaber, amongst other things while injured is better.

Dueling (Kanan): Kanan has fought the inquisitors, Darth Vader, and beat a separatist colonel as a child. Kylo has fought Finn and Rey and while it's assumed he could beat them in his prime we don't know with what effort it would take. Kanan also has shown skill in Forms I, III, V, and Jar' Kai. Kylo demonstrated Forms III and V possibly more but that's just from what I saw.

Forms are irrelevant. Kanan won't be sporting any edge over Ren through them. And what do you mean we don't know what effort it would take? He stomped both of them until Rey got One-With-The-Force-ish. We can easily assume he'd chop them to bits in 10 seconds on neutral ground, and Finn should definitely be around a lower-Knight level combatant and Rey's even better than him.

Agility (Kanan): Kanan has shown to be much more agile in battle. Not much more to say here.

Won't be that big a problem.

Speed (Draw): Kylo is lacking speed feats (besides reaction) but through reason we can assume he has at least enough combat speed to keep up.

Speed: Kylo, actually. Finn has rivalling feats, and an injured Kylo moved faster than him.

Durability/ Pain Tolerance (Kylo): Kylo survived Chewie's bowcaster and later a lightsaber strike from Finn and was able to continually fight. Kanan has tanked hits from a cyborg that could one shot others (not kill but definitelly incapacitate in one hit), explosions, a glancing blow from darth vader, and has been able to fight after torture. I give this one to Kylo just barely though it's close to a tie

Mostly agree, I'd say the gap is bigger, though.

Telekinesis (Draw): Kanan has the edge Kylo's best feats are holding people or his force push against Rey. But Kanan has much better lifting feats, can use force waves, and has shown to use more powerful force pushes.

Kylo's shown more control, rivalling power(despite being injured) and more abuse of it.

Other Abilities (Draw): Kylo is actually really good with Tutaminis able to block a few lightsaber strikes but that is mostly a last resort and if it gets to that point their really won't be much he can do. Kanan has beast control but that is basically useless in a battle without prep.

I think that was more Barrier. And Kylo's power is at least combatively usable, plus Kylo knows a type of Drain power, such as when he fueled himself briefly on Finn's rage, granted that didn't last long, it's still an advantage.

Fun debate so far, mate. You're one of the first Rebels/TFA debaters I've debated that don't drive me insane :)

Rebelsl

@americanspeeddemon:

And that's the impressive part. Most likely he just empowered himself with the force to fight despite his injuries.

But there's also the fact that Ezra healed Kanan prior to that.

I was mostly going by the fact that he was able to land hits on the inquisitor

And was still driven back. ESB Luke landed a hit on Vader and he's hardly Vader's equal at this time.

I don't know they seemed as if they'd fight Jedi in groups and even then they don't seem to be good enough to beat anyone above maybe low tier Jedi Knight with extreme effort.

We've yet to see that, though. They just are trained to fight Jedi.

His feats have been consistently replicated and surpassed by high tier padawans.

Not really. That's a lowball, honestly.

I don't know he was weaker than the majority of characters in the SW universe even by canon. He could be seen as nigh-unstoppable in the movie as he is the only one who has any jedi training. So at the time he might have been nigh unstoppable.

He's weaker than a majority of people in canon by what is shown, sure. But there was severe circumstances in what is shown, though.

This is the most impressive one in my opinion but the distance is never stated. For example in real life melee weapons are more effective than ranged weapons at certain ranges. Thus Cops are trained to shoot people wielding melee weapons before they can get close to them. It seems to be similar to that. Kanan has actually dodged laser blasts at point blank range and has been able to see the world moving in slow motion.

Yeah and Finn's feats are honestly rivalling that. Managing to shoot several people at relatively close distance before they can shoot off and speedblitz highly trained Stormtroopers(the former pre-prime) means he's gonna be comparable to Kanan.

I can't really debate this because I think you forgot to finish but it is big enough to walk on so generally decently big.

Ah, sorry. I was half asleep when I was debating this, KEK. I meant: A small rock can kill a person if it hits them hard enough. But a catwalk is decently big.

Yeah but she doesn't know what she's doing. She didn't know how to defend against force based attacks.

Many Force users, despite lacking training in TK and Barrier, have managed to use it though. Luke, despite lacking relative Force training, has errected a Force Barrier against Darth Vader.

But there is no proof indicating that weapons cry out to their users progeny. It didn't happen to Luke so I think we should wait for more explanation before we use that as evidence

I not happening to Luke doesn't mean it can't happen to Rey. I don't see any other reason why it would call to her.

Well he could have had a child while on tatooine but it really doesn't matter. (By the way I theorize that Rey is in fact a skywalker but I don't think we can use it until it's confirmed)

It's currently what the movie is most hinting at.

Well he learned the bare basics but he didn't perfect it. Luke has been shown to struggle with the basics of Jedi practice months after his training with Obi Wan.

In-canon, he's struggling relatively quickly. But in the EU Skywalker's shown some capability to contend with Celeste Morne(a challenge to Vong Krayt) and beat Kharys(one of the best Inquisitors and Vader's pupils).

Now their is context here. Ezra has a master and Luke didn't but still Ezra's growth is one of the fastest in universe.

Sure, but not as fast as Luke.

I was just going off how he seems to be past youngling level in a few months. Younglings are generally trained from around 3-5 to about 10-13 when they become padawans. Ezra has learned and demonstrated everything needed to become a padawan. He has good grasps of telekinesis able to lift decently heavy objects, he has begun learning to control his fear and emotions, he has pretty good combat skills able to easily deflect multiple blaster bolts even while blind and can fight inquisitors though he is definitely under them. Not to mention he seems to be trained in at least 2 lightsaber forms.

The exact same could be said for Luke, though.

I don't know about that. This is really where we differ. Thinking back there aren't too many standard jedi knight in canon to look at but their are a few and they all seem to be above him. AotC Anakin (even though he was a padawan he should be at this level), AotC Obiwan, Qui Gon, TPM Maul, current Ahsoka, Barris Offee (just barely).

Those aren't standard Jedi Knights. Some you mentioned were Jedi Masters and Sith Lords, some of the best ever even in canon, actually. They are ahead of standard Jedi Knights, by a lot.

Even if she is a Skywalker it doesn't really mean much. Force potential by itself has never to my knowledge defended against physical force attacks. Heck any self respecting force user could ragdoll Leia, ANH Luke or TPM Anakin.

An innate Force user, after some experience of their power, has managed to actually errect Barriers. Again, I refer you to Luke VS Vader.

Low level knights can hold their own against Grevious if he only uses two arms.

No they can't. Low level Jedi Knights got wrecked by Grievous in canon.

I don't think Finn even comes close to that level. I really think Finn would be beat by most Padawans decently easily. They have some decently impressive feats are most likely more skilled, definitely have faster reactions and have they force going for them.

Nah, he's definitely not gonna get wrecked by Padawans. He's the best of Stormtroopers trained to fight Jedi. I'd assume he's Jedi Knight level. It's unreasonable to assume otherwise.

Meh I'd be surprised if Finn could even block a blaster bolt. Kanan sees the world in slow motion and while actively holding back and incredibly rusty Hera states he is on the edge of human potential. Now he'll be willing to actually try to use the force instead of trying not too. Plus he has improved dramatically since then. He is outside of what is humanly possible and I still only rank him as high tier padawan/ low tier knight Finn isn't anywhere close (This is probably the rank i'd give Kylo as well mostly due to force hax)

Well two problems:

• One of the best of Stormtroopers trained to fight Jedi isn't far below a low tier Knight
• Kylo isn't the same rank as Finn, that's ridiculous.

Okay this might be confusing but personally I think Kanan has the better control but Kylo has more power. Imo Kylo is just a powerhouse but he strugglles with focusing the power allowing Kanan to have the better feats. Now this is just my opinion you can refute it if you want but that's how I see it and the reason I think Kanan and many others would win. Kylo didn't see to be able to use all his ability conservatively. After his training with Snoke I could see him easily jumping to at least high tier knight low tier master.

Only Kylo had enough control to stop a blaster bolt mid-air and hold it there without batting an eyelash for several minutes. That seems like more control than Kanan.

Okay that is a good point. I'd probably throw the barrier under Telekinesis though and bump that to a draw and add the drain here. The thing is his barrier just seems to bea last ditch effort.

And he did it while hindered, so I'd assume he'd have an even easier time doing it while healthy.

@wollfmyth209: Are you trying to use both Legends and Canon at the same time?...Cause I'm seeing some rather wonky logic here.

Not quite. Force potential and innate talent is basically the same in both Legends and canon, and the ESB novel is canon, as well, so using Luke as an example of an instinctive Force Barrier still sorta works.

@wollfmyth209: Not really meaning that...but the fact, you think that Finn is Jedi Knight level....now Canon I might agree, Legends not so much.

I am arguing canon exclusive, though.

Can we stop saying that Rey is Luke's daughter and stuff like that? Please? It has no basis in fact whatsoever, and the only 'hint' for it is an unusually long stare between the two of them at the end of the film and Luke's surprised look. That's nothing concrete at all, for all we know Luke is just surprised that someone both managed to find him and have his father's lightsaber, which last he saw of it it was hurtling towards the core of a gas giant, and Rey could have an old man fetish for all we know.

Oh it's 'heavily implied' you say? Well then I guess it's 'heavily implied' that I'm cyborg Jesus from the 50th millennium, and can therefor make up feats for myself on the battle forum. Stop saying things as if they are proven facts and then using them as such if they aren't confirmed.

@americanspeeddemon: Don't forget that the explosion had taken out multiple tunnel networks, it is a good assumption that most of the cavern they were in had collapsed considering the major damage it did to the rest of the mine.

@wollfmyth209: Come on m8! Fight the TFA lowballing

You're kind of pissing in the wind to try and judge Kylo vs Kanan at this point given that they're from totally different time periods, and nothing either has done outstrips the other too significantly. Ezra is definitely outclassed by either TFA member, though, so that side should win.

@americanspeeddemon:

I don't think Ezra has force healing

The novelized version noted he used the Force to heal him. It might've been an instinctive type of thing.

Well Vader was holding back and Kanan was the only one to land a hit during their battle

Vader holding back against who? Either way, Luke did land a hit on Vader.

Meh a lot of factions in the SWU are trained to fight Jedi (Mandalorians, Magnadroids, Inquisitors) but as far as I know few can battle them one on one

Everyone you just mentioned has held their own, stalemated or even bested standard Jedi Knights. Grievous' Elite MagnaGuards(not the standard ones Ahsoka can fight evenly with) have given Shaak Ti, Anakin and Obi-Wan grief.

I don't really think it is I honestly wouldn't rank him over pre-AotC Anakin, CW Ahsoka, or Barriss Offee just to name a few

But those aren't standard Jedi Knight level. Those exceed Jedi Knight level. And pre-AotC Anakin doesn't have any feats(in canon) we can judge him on based on Kylo. He disarmed two thugs and that's it.

Well we really can only use what is shown. The reason I want to see more is because it's hard to gauge him.

I think what we've seen is probably enough to gauge his superiority over standard Jedi Knights or people or Kanan's calibre.

I mean Kanan has been stated to be be on the edge of human potential while drastically holding back. Also I'd be surprised if Finn could even block blaster bolts let alone 4-5 at once.

You're surprised? OK, doesn't mean he can't do it. Which he clearly can.

He had at least trained in TK and had been using TK for years at that point. Rey had never before even attempted to use TK.

He's used the most basic Force push, not a Barrier.

Hints don't always equal what is the truth. Sometimes hints are deliberately placed to make you think one thing before they reveal another and sometimes people have completely changed what is being hinted at.

Yeah but this is some... really big hinters. It'd be jumping the shark for them to not make Rey in some way connected to them.

I don't know much about the EU. Really the most EU i know is the force unleashed

Ah, I see. You're not really suited for debating much of SW then.

In most areas he has surpassed Luke both with a few months. He can lift up full sized people with the force whilst luke can only move small objects like his lightsaber or small boxes and can use decently elaborate mind tricks. Not to mention his better ligtsaber skill.

Luke has levitated a large portion of rocks at once and has managed to hold up an AT-ST sometime after ESB. I'd hardly call whatever Ezra did "superior". And Ezra has better lightsaber skill than Luke? You've gotta be kidding me.

He also knows more force abilities than Luke did like Animal control.

Luke knows Beast Control. The guy managed to tame a Dragon on Dagobah.

Luke really only surpasses him in force sensitivity at this point. After his encounter with Yoda Luke definitely does surpass Ezra in almost everything and equals in anything else.

Luke stomps Ezra by ESB.

By ESB Luke still has definitely gotten to padawan level but that is after 3 years. Ezra has been doing this for at most a year.

Luke didn't have a master, just his innate talent.

I also mentioned padawans. Who is the best Canon character you think he could beat and who is the worst who could beat him. Just wondering where you rank him. Personally I'd put him on pre-AotC Anakin level though i'll need to see more of both of them.

Pre-AotC Anakin is too low. That Anakin(in canon) has trouble taming wild beasts and has only beaten a cheap copy of Maul. I'd rank Kylo probably AotC Anakin or above, honestly.

But he had been using the force for TK for a while. ESB is set 3 years after ANH and then there is the at least month Luke spent training with Yoda.

Luke had no training those 3 years, though. And he still beat Boba Fett, he still held off a massive beast, he still contended with MagnaGuards who were Jedi-Killers during the Clone Wars.

Well he was held off by Ahsoka, He was stalemated by Nahdar Vebb until he cheated, he was beat by gungans, etc.

Some of his lowest showings that can easily be attributed to PIS;

• He wrecked Ahsoka
• He was driving back Nahdar despite the fact that, according to his medical droid, he was in no position to fight due to just getting some of his parts added back
• He was beaten by an entire army bombarding him

Now let's look at some of other Grievous' feats:

• Beating or stalemating Obi-Wan
• Beating Depa Billaba twice
• Stalemating Maul in Son of Dathomir

The Inquisitors are made to fight Jedi too and I only put them at high padawan level with GI getting low knight level. People who are trained or even droids made to fight Jedi have been consistently beaten by padawans

Why do you put them so low? The Inquisitors have killed high tier padawans(or are suppose to, anyways) and the droids and other people trained for fighting Jedi usually do give them a challenge. Grievous' Elites killed or at least exhausted Jedi Knights, Mandalorains are noted rivals and threats to the Jedi Order, etc.

What i meant was Kanan has more control over his power than Kylo has over his which is why Kylo who could be Vader level isn't. Kanan is a decently average Jedi with nothing really special about him but he is able to control his power more because he has better training. This is also evident in their lightsaber skill. Kanan's skill is a lot more refined while Kylo is more trying to overpower his opponents.

Kylo's control was still better. He performed Tutaminis with more control and power than Yoda could(not saying Kylo > Yoda, just noting Yoda's tutaminis doesn't stop bolts mid-flight). And a lot more refined based on what? Movie choreography making it look like Kylo's a brute? He took great advantage of his weapon's cross-guards and made some precise strikes at Finn while they were dueling, grazing him on the chest without actually killing him.

Most likely but he'd most likely only resort to that after losing his lightsaber and I don't really see him coming back before Kanan breaks his defense if it gets to that.

It's still a more impressive display of power than anything Kanan demonstrated.