Jean Grey vs Exodus

@marvelfan1992: I found One for you.

(@pyrofn@del_torro I tagged you guys if you were interested)

Pro.X Stalemating Exodus in a TP battle....I know I know not much, but I found something for you sheesh give me some credit. lol

@mooty_pass: thanks! do you know what Issue this is? I wanted to read the whole encounter it's been years since I have haha

@lordofallhumans@ursaber do you guys have any thoughts on this match?

@onsipin: I'm backing Jean. He was stronger in the past under special circumstances only. Over the years he has has gotten weaker and she has gotten stronger. Add that to the fact that she possessed the combination of power and skill that rated her second only to Xaiver even back when Exodus was an Acolyte psi leeching from others.

@lordofallhumans: what special circumstances were those? if i'm not mistaken, he only started psychic leeching after he lost to holocaust in the fall of Avalon. Would you still back Jean vs the classic Exodus that was a team buster?

@onsipin: Those are the special circumstances. He was always a psi leech which is why he was so powerful back then. Fighting Holocaust killed his source while depleting the power they gave him at the same time. He has never been able to regain that level of power which is why he went after Nate. Yes I would back her current incarnation over his classic levels, simply because he was a psionic bulldozer. No real skill or finese just brute psi strength. At classic levels he fought stupidly against Holocaust and barely survived, even though Holocaust was from a world with few telepaths and was instantly stopped, right after he was found on Earth after the fall of Avalon, by a simple telepathic suggestion from Sage.

@lordofallhumans: was there any reference to determine that the reason why he was so powerful back then was because he was psi-leeching? In Bloodties, he is mentioned to be "feeding off their fears" but not in the sense that he is using it to amplify himself but rather to use it to cause chaos .

He was able to keep a group of people including Jean subdued while at the same time battling X-men and Avengers.

Also, even with Charles giving an all-out telepathic attack, he was able to get back up from it. Even with Charles and Jean present, they still had to resort to tricking him/sneaking up on him.

Gallery

P.S. Any tips on how to format it properly? I tried to put a sentence/paragraph followed by a pic, then another paragraph followed by a pic and so forth, but it gets messed up

Exodus.

@xmangog__beastx: May I know your reasons? :)

@onsipin: the reference was made after the fall of Avalon in X-Man. Call it a retcon call it elucidation, the fact is he has never reached those levels since then and was referred to as a psi leech that fed off the psi of others and was specifically trying to regain that level of power back by psi leeching Nate. So there is the reference. That was exactly my point, when I said he's a brute with no real skill or finesse. He can be subdued if one simply doesn't fight the way he does.

Not an expert on formatting. I just usually get lucky lol.

@lordofallhumans: fair enough.

You are very knowledgeable about the psychics and especially Jean so if you don't mind taking some time, could you kindly elaborate on how the fights would go in a few scenarios between current Jean and classic Exodus (as in the one in bloodties). I recall seeing some posts of yours from older threads and liked how you elaborated on your points, so would love to get your thoughts on these.

scenario 1: A drawn out TK battle (no instant-killing moves) Can her TK match his or will he overpower her

scenario 2: TP Battle in the form of TP blasts (as evidenced by your comment about Exodus being a bulldozer, I already know you back Jean for a skillful battle on the astral plane)

scenario 3: All out battle with all their powers. - do you see Jean being able to overcome him on a battle on all fronts or will she have to resort to locking him in a TP fight on the astral plane

@onsipin: Thanks. It's hard to gauge how those scenarios would end simply because they require Jean to fight out of character while he gets to fight in character. Jean is not a brawler by nature so she won't engage in such a battle trying to duke it out. She has held her power back for the entirety of her career, so she relies mostly on skill to win. I do believe she's more powerful than him, but she's not into vulgar displays of power to prove it.

@onsipin: @lordofallhumans: Not Unless you anger her, and you’d have to be extremely bad to get under Jeans skin. We can say that about every character, but the thing about Jean is, once she thinks you could care less about another persons well-being or wishes, she throws hesitation out the window, caring less about the consequences, which usually means you pissed her off tremendously. It’s why Scott said in Endsong how Jean used to blow a hole in the wall and fly away.

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab194/znop/Uncanny%20X-Men%20300_B_zps3rgzv93n.jpg~original

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/q0UL6klhb3MMiRoWvYAg5OJg6rG2aWxmE9XUwYeRSjkyJQ17SeLNkCPC5AWe2cNijJq51ot96TcS=s1600

@pyrofn: that was kinda my point. In character she'll fight smart without letting her power dictate the outcome, but eventually she'll grow tired. She hates to be underestimated. One thing Emma got right about her, is she can quickly turn into a bully, because she already knows she's an apex psi. She's just more humble about it, than most.

@pyrofn: may I know where the second scan is from?

also for anyone, is Uncanny X-Men: First Class canon? And does Jean have the phoenix force there or is she just dawning the costume

Jean should win this. A Xavier who had just been resurrected after being shot in the head and underwent major trauma was able to stalemate or beat Exodus depending on how you interpret Exodus' intentions. Judging by how Exodus didn't try to stop Xavier from leaving, I'd say Exodus couldn't have. Emma was also able keep him locked in a telepathic fight and tie him. Jean is an equal to Xavier (some would argue she could be above him) and she is definitely above Emma so based on these I vote for Jean

@onsipin: I think it is. No one has argued against it, or even questioned it. It doesn’t seem to contradict the previous canon before either, so I can’t see why it couldn’t be.

if a weakened Charles Xavier can beat Exodus then a full powered Jean should clean house

@warlockmage: my concern with that argument is that, as I've posted before, Exodus was able to hold off both the X-men and Avengers at the same time, while keeping Jean subdued, and tanking a full on telepathic blast from Xavier and getting up from it still ready to do battle. They had to resort to backstabbing him to win, even with both Jean (although she was weaker back then) and Xavier there. You can check post #57 for the scans

@pyrofn:may I know where the house destroying scan is from? :D

@onsipin: Uncanny X-Men Annual #17

@pyrofn: thank you !

Current Jean would win over Exodus

bump

exodus stomps

still this. Exodus has never been portrayed as powerful as he was that one time in bloodties. Since then, he's been stalemated by Emma and Rachel and defeated by Xavier. He also lost to Magneto, the same Magneto that was not confident he would survive a battle with teen Jean even on mutant growth hormones.

Coin toss I'm saying Jean in a clutch fight

I still back Jean.

Bump

*flips another coin* Exodus in a clutch fight

Exodus. Jean's TK is nowhere near strong enough to crush an island and I am not sure she can beat him telepathically.

@stormcell: What are you talking about? She shielded from island level explosions twice in her history and has held together Avalon with her tk.

@koays: I agree if they go by tk. But if they go by telepathy, I back Jean.

@pyrofn: Hey their not restricted, I honestly just see this as a hard win for Jean in TP, and a hard loss in TK. This just seems like a Toss up since for her to win she has to TP him while hes pounding with TK and for him he has to do the same in reverse.

@koays: how is it a hard win in tp when Emma can engage him in such a manner he can only use tp to defend himself and unable to use tk. The difference here is Jean wouldn't need Dust to take him out physically because I've yet to see her only able to use one power at a time. Do I not understand what hard win is?

@lordofallhumans: I might be misinterpreting what you’re saying but I think he meant that it would be an easy win not a difficult win.

@elpendejo: that's what I was trying to figure out. Hard win as in difficult or hard win as in solid,?

@lordofallhumans: Its a hard win in TP because Exodus isn't a pushover. Shes not stomping him. But if she wins its gonna be in TP.

My thing is that even when fighting Xavier Exodus was able to use his TK, so if he feels like hes losing and decides to press her with TK Its possible, unless she replicates a feat only Emma so far has ever been able to do.

@lordofallhumans: Ok so he did mean it was a difficult win

@koays wasn’t he only able to use tk because Xavier wasn’t at his best in that moment?

@elpendejo: you could argue that maybe....but look at his record.

Knocked Jean out of his head while brawling with Harbinger

Took a mindblast from Xavier while crushing Genosha

Blasted Magneto into a wall while fighting Xavier

Fought Rachel on multiple levels while fighting the X-Men

The only one who ever stopped his TP was Emma.

And before you try to take it away or blame it on Dust, Emma was fighting him before Dust got involved and for pretty much all of Careys run basically out did him at every turn.

So while that feat is good for Emma it's mostly just an independent Emma skill feat.

So while Jean would likely beat Exodus, hes again just switching offenses and trying to strain her with superior TK, teleportation etc....basically it's a battle between multi-taskers and hes got the superior feats in that while shes got a guaranteed win in one stat.

@koays: Jean’s about as skilled as Emma and Xavier, wouldn’t she be able to force him into a tp battle too?

@elpendejo: Xavier couldnt, why would we assume Jean can? It's such a great Emma feat for a reason. And theres no rule that says the 3 most skilled people all know how to do the exact same thing.

@koays: Didn’t he just wake up from getting shot with scattered memories? I think it’s fair to say Charles might’ve been missing some skill at that time.

@elpendejo: Ok, so why didn't he do it in bloodties?

@koays: He was stronger in bloodties right? I thought we agreed that was an outlier.

Where did she hold Avalon together with her TK? I hope you are not talking about "Fatal Attractions" because that is NOT what happened there. Also, Genosha is a country. Avalon is not that size.

Also, where did she shield an entire island from an explosion and how large was the island? Assuming she did do as you claim, dollars to donuts it was not anywhere near the size of Genosha.

This would be an argument for Emma being stronger and more skilled than Jean. Jean does not get this feat simply because Emma did it. Jean has to earn her own TP feats. On top of that, Emma was able to shield the X-Men's minds from both Sinister's and Exodus's telepathy at the same time while she was sitting on a couch far removed from the actual fight itself.

Genosha is an island established as a country. The same way Hawaii is a collection of islands established as a state.

Yes, that is exactly what was happening there. Cyclops confirms that Jean was holding Avalon together.

@pyrofn said:

@stormcell said:

@pyrofn said:

@stormcell: What are you talking about? She shielded from island level explosions twice in her history and has held together Avalon with her tk.

Where did she hold Avalon together with her TK? I hope you are not talking about "Fatal Attractions" because that is NOT what happened there. Also, Genosha is a country. Avalon is not that size.

Also, where did she shield an entire island from an explosion and how large was the island? Assuming she did do as you claim, dollars to donuts it was not anywhere near the size of Genosha.

Genosha is an island established as a country. The same way Hawaii is a collection of islands established as a state.

Yes, that is exactly what was happening there. Cyclops confirms that Jean was holding Avalon together.

I knew you were going to bring this up. Did you read the actual pages? Magneto was holding Avalon together. As he took damage, his grip on it lessened. Jean tried to use her TK to make up for the difference of Magneto's lessening hold, but she wasn't strong enough to hold up her end for very long. So, this was a weakened Magneto PLUS Jean holding it up here. Jean didn't do this by herself, and she failed.

That said, Genosha is 1,286 square miles. https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ej3hk8AvToa4h1T31XRZfe-0xUBxRnaA_MiffpXYQwIcl1S_7aSTQz8k01yiae6feb3im5wwyUKY=s1600

Avalon is a pea pod compared to that.

@elpendejo: But if it's a skill feat then it shouldnt matter. Its accepted that Exodus is likely stronger then Emma but she still did it. No body else has. And theres no argument that Jean can when Xavier beat Exodus and still couldnt tie up his TK like that.

Emma just has better combat skill feats then the other two, so its not a big deal or surprising at all, but you cant just say Jean can do something when no one else who has ever fought him aside from Emma has been able to do this and she has a completely different style and skillset from Jean.

@stormcell said:

@pyrofn said:

@stormcell said:

@pyrofn said:

@stormcell: What are you talking about? She shielded from island level explosions twice in her history and has held together Avalon with her tk.

Where did she hold Avalon together with her TK? I hope you are not talking about "Fatal Attractions" because that is NOT what happened there. Also, Genosha is a country. Avalon is not that size.

Also, where did she shield an entire island from an explosion and how large was the island? Assuming she did do as you claim, dollars to donuts it was not anywhere near the size of Genosha.

Genosha is an island established as a country. The same way Hawaii is a collection of islands established as a state.

Yes, that is exactly what was happening there. Cyclops confirms that Jean was holding Avalon together.

I knew you were going to bring this up. Did you read the actual pages? Magneto was holding Avalon together. As he took damage, his grip on it lessened. Jean tried to use her TK to make up for the difference of Magneto's lessening hold, but she wasn't strong enough to hold up her end for very long. So, this was a weakened Magneto PLUS Jean holding it up here. Jean didn't do this by herself, and she failed.

That said, Genosha is 1,286 square miles. https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ej3hk8AvToa4h1T31XRZfe-0xUBxRnaA_MiffpXYQwIcl1S_7aSTQz8k01yiae6feb3im5wwyUKY=s1600

Avalon is a pea pod compared to that.

Tell me how big Avalon is exactly, then.