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Posted by onsipin (639 posts) 10 months, 10 days ago

Poll: Jean Grey vs Exodus (23 votes)

Jean Grey 83%
Exodus 17%

This is current Jean that has no phoenix but is no longer holding back. Exodus is at his normal power-level and not at his weaker psychic vampire form.

Two of the strongest psionics on Earth, which one will take it? Both are going all-out

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#2 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18570 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

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#3 Posted by adamTRMM (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

Exodus already showed he's above her. When written by Lobdell and Gage, he's a beast. But I'm pretty sure some Bendis and all those current filler writers would gladly job him for her.

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#4 Posted by coraPVP (327 posts) - - Show Bio

Emma was capable of stalemating him in telepathy and seeing as to how Jean is quite the superior telepath to Emma, she could take this. My money is on Jean

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#5 Posted by ElPendejo (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m going with Jean. She’s grown considerably since their first fight. And also, wasn’t Exodys always a psychic vampire?

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#6 Posted by del_torro (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

hmm. hard one.

Exodus beat jean in the early 90s, that's like 3-4 power ups below current jean (stopped holding back post OZT, got psylocke specialized powers, expanded her powers in new X-men, now post ressurection is stronger than before)

Current exodus has been stalemated by Emma, Xavier, Rachel. but some claim he's been depowered (Xavier did take him out in the 90s)

so I won't see him stomping Jean, since recently she beat emma as a ghost and in endsongtook down phoenix Emma.

Since this is full power 90s Exodus and Current powerful Jean, it's hard to tell who would win.

should probably wait till jean gets more feats, like when she faces Cassandra Nova in X-men red and when she faces Xavier in astonishing annual

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#7 Posted by onsipin (639 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m going with Jean. She’s grown considerably since their first fight. And also, wasn’t Exodys always a psychic vampire?

This is what I mean by his weakened psychic vampire state

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#8 Edited by onsipin (639 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro said:

hmm. hard one.

Exodus beat jean in the early 90s, that's like 3-4 power ups below current jean (stopped holding back post OZT, got psylocke specialized powers, expanded her powers in new X-men, now post ressurection is stronger than before)

Current exodus has been stalemated by Emma, Xavier, Rachel. but some claim he's been depowered (Xavier did take him out in the 90s)

so I won't see him stomping Jean, since recently she beat emma as a ghost and in endsongtook down phoenix Emma.

Since this is full power 90s Exodus and Current powerful Jean, it's hard to tell who would win.

should probably wait till jean gets more feats, like when she faces Cassandra Nova in X-men red and when she faces Xavier in astonishing annual

we don't know what exactly Jean did to Emma as a ghost so I don't agree with saying ghost Jean "beat" Emma. She possessed her is a more appropriate term. We don't know if she was using telepathy or what (or if she even has any of her mutant powers as a ghost), so I would not call that a telepathic feat for adult Jean. I'm also pretty sure that the only reason she was able to rip the PF out of Emma was because the phoenix is connected to Jean. It says so in endsong that Jean and the phoenix are one, which is why she was able to take it from Emma. Don't get me wrong, Jean is definitely superior to Emma, but those 2 instances you mentioned don't show Jean being a superior psychic

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#9 Posted by ElPendejo (1670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by del_torro (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

a ghost tried to possess jean once, and she kicked him out then beat him in a duel on the astral plane. she wouldn't have been able to do that if she wasn't more powerful.

ghosts of other telepaths like Xavier could use telepathy, so why would Jean be exempt?

jean didn't just possess Emma, she also suppressed her mental defenses so teen Jean could come in, and prevented her from consciously fighting back. I'm sure that counts as telepathy.

plus adult jean has possessed and taken over Emma's body and an alternate reality Rachel's body too, and those were counted as telepathy feats.

ghost jean also cloaked herself from doctor strange, manipulated the astral plane and found out about Emma's phoenix shard from teen jeans memory, so I'd say the things she'd been doing fall under telepathy.

even if it was not telepathy. a powerful telepath like Emma would not just be possessed and have her powers as ND mental defenses suppressed by a ghost unless the ghost was stronger than her.

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#12 Posted by onsipin (639 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: hmm well from the other examples you've given I can get behind the ghost thing. Do you have a rebuttal for the Endsong one?

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#13 Posted by ElPendejo (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: I’ve just read Endsong again and Jean hit Phoenix Emma pretty hard with a psychic blast. Not necessarily beating, but it does show how much powerful Jean got. But I do think Jean ripping the Phoenix out of Emma so easily was because of her connection with the Phoenix and the fact that Emma was only a shell and not a host.

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#14 Posted by del_torro (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onsipin: The part of the endsong fight I'm referring to is when jean knocks down Phoenix Emma with a psi blast then grabs her with tk. then the Phoenix asks how she can do that without it's power.

that was before she ripped the Phoenix out of Emma (which she was able to do because of her connection to it, yes). but doesn't change that Non phoenix Jeans telepathy attacks are strong enough to knock down Phoenix Emma.

if you read Phoenix saga, Emmas attacks didn't affect phoenix jean and phoenix was playing with her like food. so it shows a contrast.

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#15 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17012 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean.

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#16 Edited by onsipin (639 posts) - - Show Bio

@elpendejo Oh yes I have no doubt that Jean is indeed very powerful and she certainly hit Emma good with that blast. I'm just referring to Jean ripping out the PF from Emma, because that to me was pretty clearly due to her relationship with the PF. If Torro meant the psychic blast knocking Emma down then yeah I'm on board, but if it's the whole thing including ripping the PF out from Emma, then i'd have to disagree

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#17 Edited by onsipin (639 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro yeah i've just mentioned to ElPendejo how I would definitely agree if you were referring to the attack of Jean knocking Emma down. It was the ripping out the phoenix part of their encounter that I would hold to the circumstances of their relationship. But I will say, I was always doubtful about that encounter because when the PF asks how Jean can do it without it's power, she replies " I am you. Don't you remember?" Meaning the way their powers interacted might have been affected by their relationship. The conversation says to me that the reason Jean could do that to the PF was because she IS part of the PF. But anyway, that's just one way of interpreting it, I don't really have a problem with saying a phoenix-less Jean knocked down Emma there on her own

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#18 Posted by del_torro (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know, it all gets confusing and convoluted

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#19 Posted by GladeusEx (683 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean, by pure virtue that her current iteration can never lose a fight.

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#20 Posted by geekryan (5022 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean takes a majority with high difficulty

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#21 Posted by Mooty_Pass (10031 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a tough one. Current Jean hasn't shown anything she couldn't do already. Hm I think i'll go with Jean Grey on this one.

What do you think @marvelfan1992@pyrofn

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#22 Posted by del_torro (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gladeusx: ouch. lol, I'm sure they'll soon do A big event where everyone has to job. and Jean Greys true nature, is that of a jobber

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#23 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2844 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a tough one. Current Jean hasn't shown anything she couldn't do already. Hm I think i'll go with Jean Grey on this one.

What do you think @marvelfan1992@pyrofn

It's hard to judge this because Exodus really did make Jean look like a joke in their previous encounters lol. But seeing as to how Rachel was able to stalemate/beat him in a TP fight (yes he was also busy engaging the x-men physically, but Jean is currently made to be very superior to Rachel in TP so it scales), Emma was able to stalemate him and Xavier was able to beat him, I feel Jean could take the majority here via TP. However, if she goes for TK instead, I'm not sure she would take the majority. If she engages him in TP, that would force him to engage her in a purely TP fight like Emma did, and she could beat him there. So yeah I would say Jean for the majority. I can definitely see arguments for Exodus taking a majority though

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#24 Posted by PyroFN (6586 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: No, he didn’t. In both cases, Jean didn’t have any proper fights. She couldn’t do anything about the first case for he had Crystals daughter hostage and he took advantage of that situation. The next situation, she wanted to only establish contact and talk things out and he forcefully kicked her out.

In both cases, Jean didn’t attack but was attacked when not expecting to be attacked.

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#25 Posted by PyroFN (6586 posts) - - Show Bio

@gladeusex: That’s what happens when you just come back from the dead. You gain immunity from death from the editors. Lol, I kid.

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#26 Posted by PyroFN (6586 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: The real jokes are people (not you or @ashtedust) insisting that Jean lost those “fights”.

Exodus had a hostage in one fight and took advantage of it

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111236353/4677959-avengers+369-013anpymgold.jpg

And the other case, Jean only wanted to establish contact to convince him to take the fight elsewhere and he kicked her out forcefully

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30174/4679125-xmenv204308rougher.jpg

Neither case shows that Jean was ready for a fight or wanted one, both in times when she was holding back her real power.

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#27 Posted by PyroFN (6586 posts) - - Show Bio

Given that Jean has faced a psychic vampire before and won when her powers barely arisen after being dormant since the Saga and given Exodus track record with characters less powerful or skilled than Jean, I’m confident Jean will win in a fight against Exodus.

Here is Jean vs Psynapse

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30174/4351088-x-factor+065+%28large%29-15.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30174/4351121-jean+reacts+to+psynapse+2+%28x-factor+65%29.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30174/4351089-jean+reacts+to+psynapse+%28x-factor+65%29.jpg

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#28 Edited by marvelfan1992 (2844 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: well here's my take on it. The one with the Avengers, even if he didn't have Luna Jean would not have been able to do anything to him. Xavier sent a full powered telepathic attack after knowing his weak spots already due to Jean's probing (that's all she could really do tbh, she would not be able to take him on), and Exodus was still able to withstand it. This version of Jean can't compete with Exodus and that's fine. That is a weaker Jean Grey, not really much compared to what she is now. ( and I know Exodus has some type of confidence empowering ability so he might have been amped there I dunno for sure)

The one on Avalon, I agree that wasn't an actual fight, but I'm confident he would beat her at that point in time.

Even if they were not actual fights, it's pretty clear that Exodus was vastly superior to Jean at those points in time. However, Jean has come a very long way from then, and IMO current Jean is superior to Exodus and would win a majority versus him

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#29 Posted by del_torro (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

while I do agree that Jean wasn't fighting Exodus in the two times they interracted, it still shows that he was superior to her then. I doubt if they had been on the same level, he'd have been able to easily.

but, that wouldn't really scale to current Jean, she's been super since then.

it's hard to scale her to current top telepaths like Xavier, exodus, shadow king, Emma, Rachel, and sinister (I don't want to use ghost jean or endsong to put her above Emma till she meets X or Cassandra).

I think we should wait till she has more feats. she has potential to be equal to him or to scale to be stronger than him.

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#30 Posted by del_torro (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrofn: was Psynapse a psychic vampire? I can't remember much of his feats

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#31 Posted by PyroFN (6586 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: I don’t know. I might be remembering wrong. Been a while since I read x-factor 65. I know he was invading her mind for sure and it activated her powers. I thought he wanted her psychic energy. Maybe I was wrong.

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#32 Posted by AsheTDust (1890 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy, this is a tough one.

I'll say, draw.

Jean has come a long way since Exodus was tossing her and the rest of the X-Men around, but for all her recent talk about not being held back by the Phoenix anymore or how she's no longer afraid to unleash her full power, we haven't really seen that, have we. It's all talk so far. Its the same situation as with Psylocke who said she could shatter mountains with her TK, but hasn't shown nearly that amount of power. All talk.

In a straight up telekinesis and telepathy battle with nothing else, I'd give it to Jean.

But Exodus doesn't just bring only those powers to the fight. He also has healing, super strength, super durability, teleportation, and vampiric energy leeching. He has a whole host of powers to call upon. So the question is can Jean's TP and TK overcome Exodus's whole slew of powers? No clue!

We need more feats for this new version of Jean before I can say who would win.

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#33 Posted by del_torro (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: I can remember either, I'll check it. I do remember Jean slapping a psychic vampire/drainer and kicking her out her mind.

it was in an X-men annual where jean and beast were kidnapped by sinister

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#34 Posted by Batvibe12 (5762 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean.

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#35 Edited by adamTRMM (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

He literally took control of her, all while Xavier couldn't do much about that too. This was an outstanding showing no matter how we look at it. And the fact that he kicked her out next just solidified the fact she's below him in TP because a superior telepath would simply get past the defenses.

If Jean wasn't prepared for his attacks that would mean she's a bad combatant above all because of Exodus' clearly well established temper and status.

People in here talk about how bc he was stalemated by Rachel (that, while fighting a whole bunch of X-men at the same, with TK feats that are so far above anything Jean ever did in battle), Emma and Xavier, with the last two instances being both written by Carey who always seemed to be extremely fond of Emma's telepathic prowess. Don't believe? Here's a little reminder:

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And since many of us consider Xavier a better telepath than Jean, that should mean something. Sure, every time Jean and Emma meet, it ends up in the former being shown a clearly superior psychic, but knowing the specifics of superhero comics antics, we know that there are several concepts that remain intact due to tradition and statuses quo. Pretty sure if Carey or even Claremont would've written the encounter between Emma and Jean it would've been far more ambiguous than what other writers do "by default". And this is the problem right here. This is why I don't visit this section of forums anymore as long as I'm not called out. It's all so fluid, biased and inconsistent about these powerlevels it's tiresome trying to prove something that isn't even set in stone and can change upon a new person that handles these chars. Anyway, back to it. Exodus being stalemated by Rachel while fighting many X-men at the same time AND getting his powers sucked ONE BY ONE by Rogue, who never even showed such a limitation, hinting how powerful Exodus really is, all while HOLDING back. And being stalemated by Emma, whom the same writer considered a legit Xavier level telepath, using that against him is quite funny. Combined with what Exodus already did to Jean in the past. Ok ok, she got a lot better since then. I accept that. Still, Exodus has:

Telekinesis on far more impressive level than her (I'm even ready to dust off my archives and back that up with feats)

TP that is at the very least on the same level

Plus healing factor, teleportation, psionic draining, superstats and more importantly, ruthlessness

Exodus should be taking that quite comfortably.

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#36 Edited by PyroFN (6586 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: Not entirely. Like I said, her goal was to get him to take it elsewhere. Nothing in her statement shows she meant any harm.

I’d beg to differ on the combatant thing as well. To me, it shows she was either plain stupid or naive. Terrible combatant would not describe someone trying to make a peaceful resolve. No different from Xavier and Polaris trying to talk to Proteus in Astonishing.

And the Jean Grey vs Charles debate isn’t many of you guys. It’s an even split at best.

Just about ready for your feats for Exodus.

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#37 Posted by ElPendejo (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: Emma put psychic booby traps in cyclops’ mind. That’s why Xavier couldn’t do anything. Xavier even says he’s above Emma in the scan you showed.

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#38 Posted by adamTRMM (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

It doesn't matter. She left herself vulnerable in either instance and in one her ineffectiveness could end with a dead child. She did a poor job all around. Regardless, I said I digress as to how she grew more powerful in TP department. I didn't read AXM.

Many doesn't mean majority, still that may be many ;)

@elpendejo:

And she says it's moot. He said, she said. Fact is, she put him where she wanted him. And no matter how you spin it, in such an ethereal plane as mindscape, the one who dominates is the one better. No matter the posturing (see Xavier in here). Telepathy isn't just about power, too.

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#39 Posted by cosmic_reign (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if they were not actual fights, it's pretty clear that Exodus was vastly superior to Jean at those points in time. However, Jean has come a very long way from then, and IMO current Jean is superior to Exodus and would win a majority versus him

I agree...Maybe Jean wins 6.5/10.

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#40 Posted by PyroFN (6586 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: One could argue her hastiness could end with the same result. It’s no different from when someone holds a gun to someone’s head in front of the police. In both cases, she didn’t try to anticipate a fight since innocents could get hurt from someone clearly not caring about casualties. Lucikly for Jean, she has gotten more lax about her insecurities of using her powers since her 90’s Gold Team Era.

Fair enough in regards to the “many people” part.

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#41 Posted by ElPendejo (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: putting booby traps in someone’s head to handicap someone doesn’t make the one setting the traps better. If anything, it shows that the one being trapped is the better one, otherwise the booby traps wouldn’t be needed. It doesn’t matter if it’s in the physical or mental plane. Besides it’s kind of Emma’s thing to belittle her superiors when she has the upperhand.

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#42 Edited by marvelfan1992 (2844 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign: glad we are on the same page!

But yeah, Exodus actually has so many different powers aside from being a top-tier telepath and telekinetic, he was insanely powerful in his classic depictions (it's kinda ridiculous how powerful he was, taking on the x-men and avengers together while causing a mob to fight while creating a shield for an entire island all at the same time). I do agree that all out he may probably overwhelm Jean so as I said earlier, based on his confrontation with Emma in Messiah Complex, I could see Jean taking a majority if she engages him mainly through Telepathy seeing as to how Emma stalemated him (and he had to focus entirely on TP and thus couldn't make use of his other abilities) and she is better than her, and how Charles beat him and she is roughly even with him. I don't agree with @adamtrmm personally since I do believe Jean would now take a majority in a TP fight, but I totally understand his POV and why he feels Exodus would take the majority.

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#43 Posted by cosmic_reign (3673 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign: glad we are on the same page!

But yeah, Exodus actually has so many different powers aside from being a top-tier telepath and telekinetic, he was insanely powerful in his classic depictions (it's kinda ridiculous how powerful he was, taking on the x-men and avengers together while causing a mob to fight while creating a shield for an entire island all at the same time). I do agree that all out he may probably overwhelm Jean so as I said earlier, based on his confrontation with Emma in Messiah Complex, I could see Jean taking a majority if she engages him mainly through Telepathy seeing as to how Emma stalemated him and she is better than her, and how Charles beat him and she is roughly even with him. I don't agree with @adamtrmm personally since I do believe Jean would now take a majority in a TP fight, but I totally understand his POV and why he feels Exodus would take the majority.

Yes!

I have similar thoughts...tho you put it down nicely!! 👍

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#44 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2844 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2844 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy, this is a tough one.

I'll say, draw.

Jean has come a long way since Exodus was tossing her and the rest of the X-Men around, but for all her recent talk about not being held back by the Phoenix anymore or how she's no longer afraid to unleash her full power, we haven't really seen that, have we. It's all talk so far. Its the same situation as with Psylocke who said she could shatter mountains with her TK, but hasn't shown nearly that amount of power. All talk.

In a straight up telekinesis and telepathy battle with nothing else, I'd give it to Jean.

But Exodus doesn't just bring only those powers to the fight. He also has healing, super strength, super durability, teleportation, and vampiric energy leeching. He has a whole host of powers to call upon. So the question is can Jean's TP and TK overcome Exodus's whole slew of powers? No clue!

We need more feats for this new version of Jean before I can say who would win.

I agree that if Exodus is going to be using everything he has, he would overwhelm Jean. Do you think that Jean would be able to keep him locked in a purely TP battle the way Emma did? Also, didn't he fight Xavier and also use only TP? Or am I remembering that fight incorrectly. (do you know where they fought? Need to re-read that)

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#46 Edited by marvelfan1992 (2844 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro if you had to pick one right now, you would back Exodus?

@mooty_pass Was curious, what is your reasoning for backing Jean in this one?

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#47 Posted by Mooty_Pass (10031 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: I might change, because current hasn't done anything impressive(IMO) as of yet. She isn't showing me anything she hasn't done in the past. Even without the PF she is powerful, but i'm not impressed. And Exodus actually lost to a weakened Magneto soo, But i'm open to be proven otherwise. I would like some scans tho. LOL.

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#48 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2844 posts) - - Show Bio

@mooty_pass: would you happen to know where Exodus fought Xavier? I can't for the life of me remember

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#49 Posted by Mooty_Pass (10031 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2844 posts) - - Show Bio