@darkraiden: Yeah he does. But once more than literal flash of lightning is made up of magic. Thus it's literally irresponsible of you to just say magic lightning = lightning no matter if he turned into it or not. Unless proven, Laxus' lightning isn't anywhere as fast or as strong as natural lightning.
Also, you are using that type of asinine logic. The fact that you said "You can't assume that Gildarts can't disassemble Acnologia just because he didn't." is perfect proof of it. Hell, the fact you said that Grey has Silver's feats when he hasn't shown it at all or that Natsu can eat anything is all examples of that logic because none of them are shown or proven. All we know is what Grey has done and all we know is what Natsu has done. To assume more than that is asinine logic. Natsu can eat a bit of pure magic which incapacitates him for a short period of time and nearly kills him. He can eat fire and *maybe* eat lightning. Apparently he can eat shadows too? Idk, but nevertheless thats it.
Also wtf? The planet might be too strong for the infinite gravity point? Before you assume that one would normally assume about the attack no? There is no evidence of anything that the planet has done or simply has that can stop an "infinite point of gravity". The point is that the black hole isn't a black hole. Those examples you gave of other black holes are only in their own verses. Sometimes they have explanations and sometimes they don't but this is FT, not Saints Row or other comics. They have to make some sense in the verse and the only possible (and the simplest explanation) is that Blue Note was spouting shit. Once more, like Memento Mori and Genesis Zero. Srsly there is a precedence for this shit by villians and yet you think it might be the planet itself? Thats just weird.
Once more it's ok to make an assumption but it has to make some sense in context. For Gildarts, he has absolutely no excuse because A. He is faster than the weakest member of FT and the rest of FT managed to scramble together to hold hands to form a barrier. B. He hasn't been shown being tired or exhausted. C. Dragon magic has NOT been shown to be resistant to normal magic. The reason most mages have trouble hurting dragons is because it has been stated that dragon scales is too hard for normal magic. To assume that they have some sort of resistance because the "Disassemble everything" Gildarts didn't stop him is a massive leap of logic because one has to assume the closest alternative instead of a far-fetched one.
In short, before you assume there is something strong with the planet to stop an "infinite point of gravity", assume that the person stating that is BSing, before you assume that Gildarts can "Disassemble" anything, assume that he can't so that you can see his feats for what they are. Impressive but with real limits otherwise you don't give his character justice. I do it with the characters I like, you should too.
As for all those questions in regards to Naruto? Really vast majority of them can be explained away through personality and fighting style. Like Deidara only using C0 because he was pissed that another Uchiha was disregarding his "art" (First was Itachi), Sasuke, first of all was being blitzed by the Raikage and genjutsu isn't his usual MO, just like exploding tags for Naruto's clones isn't his usual MO. Yamanaka's lose control of their bodies when they do that so they are vulnerable and their jutsu could be stolen if done so other villages could have access to mind-control jutsus (also an assumption that they haven't tried before), also for the speed thing? Thats done by all shonen manga, ya know like when they walk super slow when they can break the sound barrier? Thats why that isn't an argument against Laxus because it is always done. Finally, Gaiden is a spin-off not a thouroghly canon sequal to shippuden, anything that contradicts Naruto isn't canon, kinda like a movie. The difference with this and Gildarts is that he has NO EXCUSE, his family and comrades were in danger from being obliterated so if he had the strength and power to stop a big attack that would destroy them then he would have. That simple. Btw, Naruto does speed blitz, just not against opponents that have extremely advanced sharingan eyes and rinnegan combos because they can predicts people moving around lightning speed and above. (Shown when Itachi "saw" the Kirin and reacted with Susanoo at the last second. It was stated btw that the Kirin was natural lightning, so if Sasuke gets the Mangyeko sharingan which can predict lightning and was barely able to predict the Raikage's moves means the Raikage prolly is lightning speed. THAT is how you prove something, when it is stated and compared to other instances.)
As for Grey, yeah I know that but my point is that he simply doesn't have it yet. To assume he *does* have it when he maybe hasn't learned it yet is like saying that So6P Naruto has the ability to use the Sword of Nunoboko based on the assumption that he *will* have it. No, gotta have feats of him doing it before that I think, makes for better debating and fairer results....and a lot less raging I suppose ^.^
Also, Natsu hasn't been shown eating Laxus' lightning, thats an assumption since he was off-panel. Could be some type of magic that can give access to some lightning magic. Idk tbh, but that is a pretty big assumption as well, also Ethernion doesn't equal lightning magic. From what I understand, ethernion is "pure magic", kinda like the magic inside of an individual crystallized. The magic someone throws out is magic that has already been processed and transformed into something different. At least from what I understand. So honestly, Natsu can prolly eat any fire and shadow attacks without a doubt (if he has the reaction for it anyway) but anything other than that is up in the air and thus invalid because it cannot be proven.
I know that, he used it against Natsu and Hades (I watched mostly the anime and read the manga but don't remember specifically who else he used it against...) but like I said, you gotta prove that magic lightning is as fast as natural lightning or be stated in-verse...or by the author, that works too. For all we know, it could just make him as fast as 100 mph. I don't know and neither do you and there is no feasible way to prove it. So until otherwise, his feats show him to be faster than Hades in the near-beginning of the manga and idk his feats later so I think he is once again supersonic based on feats, not pure assumption. Albeit I am making a guess but at least it is based on something.
Also Natsu wasn't just shown reacting to Laxus' speed, also keeping up with him which helps my case that no way in hell is Laxus lightning speed when he turns into magic lightning.
@ratava: If the ice and the house are the same size from the same point of view then how aren't both waves of water also of the same size.
because of scaling
from the point of view in the scans the diameter of the "hole" is almost the same in both pictures. but imagine how far you have to zoom out of the ft-scan so that the people would fit in the building in the bleach-scan. its the same the other way around , imagine how far you have to zoom in in the bleach-scan to see people clearly like in th ft-scan.
there is a massive difference in the size of the "holes", the bleach one is much bigger.
my english is probably not good enough to explain this so maybe @princearagorn1 or @mudamudamuda can explain this better, if they get what i mean at all ^^
@ratava: Ohhhhh I get what you're saying. You're saying that for the house that fits people comfortably to be the same size as the ice then the zoom must be quite a bit further. Smart thinking, I honestly had no idea what you were talking about till you explained it! :P
@rektpride: Naruto Gaiden is canon though in story they gave reasons why Naruto got stabbed well one he was rusty, Sauce eyes were on cooldown from dimension traveling, loads of readers are unsure how Naruto got stabbed in the first place, most of us hope its a S/T tech like Sauces. Right Gajeel was the one who ate shadow DS magic from Rouge Natsu never ate it.
The thing about next gen stories, either the original gen gets nerfer, gets killed, gets kidnapped, or disappear to let the new gen shine and Kishi's last ditch move to make people like Sakura. Which he succeced in showing that she is a good mom now if only he would stop letting her take by surprise people above her pay grade like Kaguya I face palmed at that. Though I will accept the nerfing to make Shin look like an actual threat, just hope Boruto the Movie give Naruto and Sauce more feats to make up for it. Sauce can make shadow clones confirmed.
@passingthrough545: Rly? It was stated by Kishi to be canon? SM Naruto alone has feats of breaking Pain's chakra rod that were crated via Rinnegan. Yet in KCM Version 2 + SM he was pierced by an ordinary sword? (Was it the Sword of Kusanagi btw?) It contradicts the past right? So does that mean it is a non-factor because it contradicted the previous feat or until the feat is explained? That's what I assumed anyways. That Naruto canon superceded Naruto Gaiden canon. Kinda like manga canon supercedes anime canon.
@aesop: Luffy's speed is not out of Gildarts' league.
Nope, Luffy isn't one shotting Gildarts. Bluenote matched Gildarts in strength, and a single punch of Gildarts destroyed a small mountain. He took several attacks of this magnitude without having any magic then stood up like it was nothing when he got his magic back.
@rektpride: Yep, Kishi wrote it himself. And no it does not override Naruto's earlier showings or make them a non-factor these things are called PIS aka Plot Induced Stupidity or inconsistencies which happens in all writing. Naruto has too many showings of tanking piercing and sword damage in general, for his showings to be a non-factor. We don't truly know what Shin's ability is it might be a Space Time mangeyko ability which can go over Naruto's durability. Kishi tried to cover that up with Naruto being rusty thus allowing Shin look like a real threat since Naruto is so powerful Kishi needed a way to make story longer instead of having Naruto and Sauce stomping Shin, he had to nerf them while giving them excuses, in a few chapters Kishi will try to explain Shin's ability to us, to justify what just happened. I would not worry about too much about it only happened once.
Deathstroke tagging the Flash multiple times this happens alot thus not PIS, Spiderman beating up Firelord a herald of Galatcas that is PIS, which is what happened to Naruto tanking all shorts of cutting and piericing damage then suddenly having a sword in his gut either PIS stupidty or unexplained abilities. I would advise asking mudamuda about this he is better at explaining this then I am.
@leo-343: Yeah but isn't that the case for most FT characters? The only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Jellal, Laxus, and maybe Erza with Flight Armor. I suppose Post time skip Natsu and Gajeel might work.
@strictlyanime: Is Jellal the fastest? I mean Jellal's Metoer Magic is pretty fast right? I know Laxus' speed isn't that fast seeing as Natsu kept up with him but idk about post 7-year Laxus. What about Erza's Flight Armor speed. Do you know how fast it is? I'm asking cause I am not 100% sure and you seem more knowledgeable than I am. Sorta need an idea lol
@darkraiden: Yeah he does. But once more than literal flash of lightning is made up of magic. Thus it's literally irresponsible of you to just say magic lightning = lightning no matter if he turned into it or not. Unless proven, Laxus' lightning isn't anywhere as fast or as strong as natural lightning.
Also, you are using that type of asinine logic. The fact that you said "You can't assume that Gildarts can't disassemble Acnologia just because he didn't." is perfect proof of it. Hell, the fact you said that Grey has Silver's feats when he hasn't shown it at all or that Natsu can eat anything is all examples of that logic because none of them are shown or proven. All we know is what Grey has done and all we know is what Natsu has done. To assume more than that is asinine logic. Natsu can eat a bit of pure magic which incapacitates him for a short period of time and nearly kills him. He can eat fire and *maybe* eat lightning. Apparently he can eat shadows too? Idk, but nevertheless thats it.
Also wtf? The planet might be too strong for the infinite gravity point? Before you assume that one would normally assume about the attack no? There is no evidence of anything that the planet has done or simply has that can stop an "infinite point of gravity". The point is that the black hole isn't a black hole. Those examples you gave of other black holes are only in their own verses. Sometimes they have explanations and sometimes they don't but this is FT, not Saints Row or other comics. They have to make some sense in the verse and the only possible (and the simplest explanation) is that Blue Note was spouting shit. Once more, like Memento Mori and Genesis Zero. Srsly there is a precedence for this shit by villians and yet you think it might be the planet itself? Thats just weird.
Once more it's ok to make an assumption but it has to make some sense in context. For Gildarts, he has absolutely no excuse because A. He is faster than the weakest member of FT and the rest of FT managed to scramble together to hold hands to form a barrier. B. He hasn't been shown being tired or exhausted. C. Dragon magic has NOT been shown to be resistant to normal magic. The reason most mages have trouble hurting dragons is because it has been stated that dragon scales is too hard for normal magic. To assume that they have some sort of resistance because the "Disassemble everything" Gildarts didn't stop him is a massive leap of logic because one has to assume the closest alternative instead of a far-fetched one.
In short, before you assume there is something strong with the planet to stop an "infinite point of gravity", assume that the person stating that is BSing, before you assume that Gildarts can "Disassemble" anything, assume that he can't so that you can see his feats for what they are. Impressive but with real limits otherwise you don't give his character justice. I do it with the characters I like, you should too.
As for all those questions in regards to Naruto? Really vast majority of them can be explained away through personality and fighting style. Like Deidara only using C0 because he was pissed that another Uchiha was disregarding his "art" (First was Itachi), Sasuke, first of all was being blitzed by the Raikage and genjutsu isn't his usual MO, just like exploding tags for Naruto's clones isn't his usual MO. Yamanaka's lose control of their bodies when they do that so they are vulnerable and their jutsu could be stolen if done so other villages could have access to mind-control jutsus (also an assumption that they haven't tried before), also for the speed thing? Thats done by all shonen manga, ya know like when they walk super slow when they can break the sound barrier? Thats why that isn't an argument against Laxus because it is always done. Finally, Gaiden is a spin-off not a thouroghly canon sequal to shippuden, anything that contradicts Naruto isn't canon, kinda like a movie. The difference with this and Gildarts is that he has NO EXCUSE, his family and comrades were in danger from being obliterated so if he had the strength and power to stop a big attack that would destroy them then he would have. That simple. Btw, Naruto does speed blitz, just not against opponents that have extremely advanced sharingan eyes and rinnegan combos because they can predicts people moving around lightning speed and above. (Shown when Itachi "saw" the Kirin and reacted with Susanoo at the last second. It was stated btw that the Kirin was natural lightning, so if Sasuke gets the Mangyeko sharingan which can predict lightning and was barely able to predict the Raikage's moves means the Raikage prolly is lightning speed. THAT is how you prove something, when it is stated and compared to other instances.)
As for Grey, yeah I know that but my point is that he simply doesn't have it yet. To assume he *does* have it when he maybe hasn't learned it yet is like saying that So6P Naruto has the ability to use the Sword of Nunoboko based on the assumption that he *will* have it. No, gotta have feats of him doing it before that I think, makes for better debating and fairer results....and a lot less raging I suppose ^.^
Also, Natsu hasn't been shown eating Laxus' lightning, thats an assumption since he was off-panel. Could be some type of magic that can give access to some lightning magic. Idk tbh, but that is a pretty big assumption as well, also Ethernion doesn't equal lightning magic. From what I understand, ethernion is "pure magic", kinda like the magic inside of an individual crystallized. The magic someone throws out is magic that has already been processed and transformed into something different. At least from what I understand. So honestly, Natsu can prolly eat any fire and shadow attacks without a doubt (if he has the reaction for it anyway) but anything other than that is up in the air and thus invalid because it cannot be proven.
I know that, he used it against Natsu and Hades (I watched mostly the anime and read the manga but don't remember specifically who else he used it against...) but like I said, you gotta prove that magic lightning is as fast as natural lightning or be stated in-verse...or by the author, that works too. For all we know, it could just make him as fast as 100 mph. I don't know and neither do you and there is no feasible way to prove it. So until otherwise, his feats show him to be faster than Hades in the near-beginning of the manga and idk his feats later so I think he is once again supersonic based on feats, not pure assumption. Albeit I am making a guess but at least it is based on something.
Also Natsu wasn't just shown reacting to Laxus' speed, also keeping up with him which helps my case that no way in hell is Laxus lightning speed when he turns into magic lightning.
It's not irresponsible, but presumptuous. I presume that if it looks like lightning, behaves like lightning, and travels at around the speed lightnimg would travel (and it looks to) then it's lightning. We have no basis for saying that specific attack is slower than lightning.
I already explained this. I'm not doing it again. I'm not saying there's proof they can do these things. I explained why I think Gray, Natsu, and Gildarts can do these things based off of other feats. Simple as that.
I never said the planet was too strong. Ever. I said fiction tends to mess things up with blackholes a lot. Simple as that. And then pointed out that it was magic so it may have special rules (most people don't want to nuke their own planet). It was a direct statement and showing and if we disregard those then feats become a lot tighter on what we can accept.
I'll correct you on the Naruto stuff. Sasuke and Raikage literally stared at each other eye to eye before Sasuke was blitzed. And Yamanaka's have other jutsu to control people that don't involve leaving their bodies.
No one in Naruto can predict or dodge or move as fast as lightning and to attribute Itachi's feat to others is wrong. And even he himself only had a thought in that time. Which is impressive but nowhere near as impressive as you make it sound.
Raikage moves nowhere near lightning speed and we can confirm it. MS doesn't react to lightning speed. I'll say it again. And Itachi was still faster than Sasuke as seen when he matched Killerbee and in the Kabuto fight.
Well we know it's faster than 100mph since they reacted to sniper rounds which are much faster. And Wendy's slow in the hierarchy of Fairy Tail. There's not gonna be any hard evidence that it's lightning speed. If looking like lightning moving in a flash like lightning and so on isn't enough for you, then you'll never get the proof.
Natsu has literally eaten Laxus's lightning btw you're wrong on that and he never kept up with Laxus in lightning form to my knowledge.
@aesop: Luffy's speed is not out of Gildarts' league.
This part is completely false.FT has shown very little to no speed feats while there are many that indicate he's way faster.
1.Dodges a flintlock bullet(atleast speed of sound) after it's alreeady been shot close enough that the pistol is basically touching Luffy casually;Hypersonic
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2.Dodges Doflamingo's overheat in base which can reach Dressrosa from the Sunny in no time calced at mach 80-ish lowend
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3.Outruns a pointblank liquid explosion in base untouched ;massively hypersonic calced around mach 200
4.Kalifka point blank reacts to lightning;Luffy Gear 2 (CP9 Arc) blitzes someone at that level;massively hypersonic
There are more than just those too.
Nope, Luffy isn't one shotting Gildarts. Bluenote matched Gildarts in strength, and a single punch of Gildarts destroyed a small mountain. He took several attacks of this magnitude without having any magic then stood up like it was nothing when he got his magic back.
Gildarts used crash infused punch on the mountain.Bluenote was out of his league and was crash infused punch one shotted Bluenote.
Luffy also has feats like
1.:Kicking Hody Jones through the plateau which is 300m high and 300m deep,hitting Hody through the same plateau with a base arnament haki punch
The scaling is from the Surume fully extending his tentacles out which are long enough to easily grab large galleon ships using a small part of his tentacle
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2.He sent the same giant kraken flying while nerfed underwater
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3.He shattered Pica's head;look at his whole body and notice how small the 3 to 4 story buildings are on his body
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4.Luffy also one shotted a Pacifista which is more durable than Franky who took a mountain explosion to the face
His whole metal skin was destroyed and Pacifistas being way more stronger;tanking every strawhats' attacks which include the monster trio.Zoro tried to cut the pacifista with an attack that could easily cut steel and Franky now but failed.People like Rob Lucci are easily able to pierce Franky's skins.
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Fun Fact:Luffy tanked island splitting attacks Pre-Time Skip
@darkraiden: Perhaps presumptuous is the better word to describe it. But once again, Laxus' lightning doesn't behave like lightning at all. Really, real natural lightning is formed through storm conditions from clouds. Laxus' lightning is formed through his body. Real lightning in the instant it hits is as hot as the surface of the sun, Laxus' lightning when used for offensive purposes as a blast or when coating his fist for better physical strikes does at most make really really small craters in the ground. The ONLY thing that Laxus' lightning has in common with real lightning is the fact it is call lightning and looks like lightning. So to the contrary, it is you who has no basis in thinking it can be equatable to lightning. If you're gonna assume that you need something far more solid for proof than "it looks like it so I think it probably is like it" since lightning-speed is a very impressive feat which is a game-changer.
Yes you explained why you believe they can. However you go further and beyond by presuming they can go even further than what they have shown possible. Sometihng anyone can do about their favorite characters to the detriment of what the characters can already do.
About the Itachi thing. I don't see where the confusion lies. I'm talking about the Mangyekou Sharingan which all Uchihas share. There is literally no difference between their abilities except for other special abilities. That much is stated as well. Abilities like Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi are Itachi's abilities for example. The simple fact that he was able to respond (not physically) to something moving that was stated to be 1/1000 of a second with a near-blind Mangyekou Sharingan at the last second is VERY impressive. The fact that the 4th Raikage was able to blitz Sasuke with the Mangyekou Sharingan that has the same precog abilities does suggest he is moving at lightning speed. Something that is very much possible in the Narutoverse since both the 3rd and 4th Raikage has been known to survive being moved from one place to another at light-speed through the Heavenly-Transfer Jutsu without injury. Btw, I am not assuming that the Raikages move at lightning-speed because they use lightning chakra. But rather because I have stated feats to help back it up and it makes sense.
Once more genjutsu isn't Sasuke's MO and the only abilities I can think you are referring to are the one where they enter the victim's mind to find information like against Pein's "dead" body that was sent back by Jiraiya, which still leaves them helpless since they need to concentrate.
Just because someone can "see" someone moving really fact doesn't mean they can physically react to it. A stated weakness with the sharingan and all ocular powers. That's why you ain't hearing me say that Sasuke is Lightning-speed at this point in time.
The problem with FT is that there is very few things in it that help discern how fast someone is in the verse or the limits of the powers. It is precisely because I actually like FT that I try to presume th elowest for them and work up from there so that I can get their true feats. Not ones that you can just assume based on one instance that never happens again.
Also you are 100% correct on how fast Wendy needs to be to react at least to a sniper bullet. But remember she is a dragon slayer. From what I understand they tend to be quite a bit more powerful than their normal mage counter-parts. By how much? Idk, but I'd say she is in the upper-echelons of speed, not in the lowest rings. Like slower than Natsu, Grey and Erza (Pretty much all the main hitters) but faster than the rest of the mooks of FT.
@darkraiden: Perhaps presumptuous is the better word to describe it. But once again, Laxus' lightning doesn't behave like lightning at all. Really, real natural lightning is formed through storm conditions from clouds. Laxus' lightning is formed through his body. Real lightning in the instant it hits is as hot as the surface of the sun, Laxus' lightning when used for offensive purposes as a blast or when coating his fist for better physical strikes does at most make really really small craters in the ground. The ONLY thing that Laxus' lightning has in common with real lightning is the fact it is call lightning and looks like lightning. So to the contrary, it is you who has no basis in thinking it can be equatable to lightning. If you're gonna assume that you need something far more solid for proof than "it looks like it so I think it probably is like it" since lightning-speed is a very impressive feat which is a game-changer.
Yes you explained why you believe they can. However you go further and beyond by presuming they can go even further than what they have shown possible. Sometihng anyone can do about their favorite characters to the detriment of what the characters can already do.
About the Itachi thing. I don't see where the confusion lies. I'm talking about the Mangyekou Sharingan which all Uchihas share. There is literally no difference between their abilities except for other special abilities. That much is stated as well. Abilities like Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi are Itachi's abilities for example. The simple fact that he was able to respond (not physically) to something moving that was stated to be 1/1000 of a second with a near-blind Mangyekou Sharingan at the last second is VERY impressive. The fact that the 4th Raikage was able to blitz Sasuke with the Mangyekou Sharingan that has the same precog abilities does suggest he is moving at lightning speed. Something that is very much possible in the Narutoverse since both the 3rd and 4th Raikage has been known to survive being moved from one place to another at light-speed through the Heavenly-Transfer Jutsu without injury. Btw, I am not assuming that the Raikages move at lightning-speed because they use lightning chakra. But rather because I have stated feats to help back it up and it makes sense.
Once more genjutsu isn't Sasuke's MO and the only abilities I can think you are referring to are the one where they enter the victim's mind to find information like against Pein's "dead" body that was sent back by Jiraiya, which still leaves them helpless since they need to concentrate.
Just because someone can "see" someone moving really fact doesn't mean they can physically react to it. A stated weakness with the sharingan and all ocular powers. That's why you ain't hearing me say that Sasuke is Lightning-speed at this point in time.
The problem with FT is that there is very few things in it that help discern how fast someone is in the verse or the limits of the powers. It is precisely because I actually like FT that I try to presume th elowest for them and work up from there so that I can get their true feats. Not ones that you can just assume based on one instance that never happens again.
Also you are 100% correct on how fast Wendy needs to be to react at least to a sniper bullet. But remember she is a dragon slayer. From what I understand they tend to be quite a bit more powerful than their normal mage counter-parts. By how much? Idk, but I'd say she is in the upper-echelons of speed, not in the lowest rings. Like slower than Natsu, Grey and Erza (Pretty much all the main hitters) but faster than the rest of the mooks of FT.
Laxus's lightning behaves just like normal lightning. It shocks people and it moves in flashes and he can summon it from the sky. Plus it's called lightning. It even has voltage and whatnot. I know that normal lightning is hot as the sun. But normal people do survive it quite easily. It's not actually superior to Laxus's.
You're wrong about MS. It doesn't give all Uchiha equal reflexes. Itachi is the only one the lightning feat counts for. Sasuke himself thought no one could ever dodge it. Raikage's not close to lightning speed and Sasuke (nor Itachi) can dodge or see lightning. And you're wrong, if Raikage and 3rd Raikage moved at lightning speed, they'd be able to move at over 3700 miles per second. Raikage traveled less than that when he used the light transfer technique. If he truly moved lightning speed, he'd cover that ground without need for any transfer. Also Sage Naruto was able to react to the 3rd Raikage and outreact him and Sage Naruto is confirmed at least 100x slower than lightning due to struggling with the 5 second limit. A lightning speed person would laugh at a 5 second limit.
Wendy's horrible in combat though. I'd say she's below anyone that fights. Which is kinda what you stated, Gray, Natsu, Erza, etc.
@darkraiden: Laxus' lightning shocks people yes. So does electricity and a lot of friction, doesn't necessarily equate to lightning. He does not move in flashes, he transforms into it and moves faster but except the on instance with Natsu, I have not seen him move fast enough to be declared "in flashes". Though he can shoot lightning from the sky. Humans can survive even the most life-threatening things sometimes, including a lightning bolt. The difference is that Laxus is using lightning magic consecutively without any major damage done to his opponents besides some bad burns and bruises from his lightning magic enhanced punches and kicks. You hit someone consecutively with a lightning bolt and they're bodies will flat out shut down. Especially someone like Gajeel since he is an Iron Dragon Slayer....that many volts woulda shut down his heart of that I have no doubt. You think that because Laxus' lightning has *some* similarities (admittedly more than I thought tho) that it equates to lightning? Nope, you ain't gonna convince anyone like that ya know?
I never said that it gives all Uchiha equal reflexes, just reaction. It has been shown that the sharingan even in it's weakest state gives precog in even it's earliest showings. here are some proof. From slowing things down that objects move slow enough to react to, not reflexes. Later, the complete sharingan would allow to read muscle movements to predict how they will act. These are traits that all sharingans share, Sasuke was getting thrashed prior to unlocking his use of the sharingan and was now able to intercept Haku's attacks and dodge his ice needles. Itachi did in fact react to lightning otherwise he would be dead...his Susanoo didn't appear at all until he stated that he brought it out t the last second. If you're getting blitzed by something than you won't even be able to see them coming or react to it. Itachi couldn't physically react but his eyes must have seen it coming in order to react to it coming down. Before you say something like "he could have prepped it beforehand", Susanoo didn't appear at all before Kirin was fired and there has always been obvious signs of Susanoo being activated. Sage Naruto fought a edo tensei version of the 3rd Raikage which is weaker than his usual self because Kabuto took total control of his mind, it is stated to be a flaw of the edo tensei. Plus while SM Naruto doesn't have the best speed feats he does have excellent reaction feats. Btw, what do you mean 5 seconds? I don't recall anything with SM Naruto that has to do with 5 secs...are you talking about the time limit of his SM? If so then he also has to overpower his opponents, not just outspeed them ya know? Pein actually also has some good speed himself since their battlefield took place over the ruins of Konoha which is a massive village...
Also about the claim that the Raikage would have gone there by foot if he was really lightning speed can be explained relatively easily. They had no idea where the battle with Madara Uchiha was taking place (which was why they were heading there in the first place) so they asked Mabui (the user of the jutsu) to transport them to that location. Simple as that. Easily explainable with mangaverse logic ^.^
Idk about claiming Wendy is bad at combat, she is still a relatively heavy hitter but yeah I figured her speed was below the "main" characters of the guild.
@passingthrough545: Ah...the dreaded PIS. Shoulda considered that. Ok thanks for the info, better keep a better eye on Gaiden then. Yeah, guess I was spoiled a little by how the verse managed to explain most things neatly that the thought of an inconsistency didn't really occur to me.
@sondeatheater: There's the famous "OP is much faster than FT" bs. Did you even read my post? Erza herself is at least MHS+ and Gildarts be intercepting lights. And Dragons travel the continent (calced to be around the same diameter as our planet) in a matter of seconds. OP is not that much faster than FT if at all.
@ratava: Ohhhhh I get what you're saying. You're saying that for the house that fits people comfortably to be the same size as the ice then the zoom must be quite a bit further. Smart thinking, I honestly had no idea what you were talking about till you explained it! :P
thx, at least one who gets what iam talking about :)
@thehunter: This is a good chance to hear some feats from FT so I'll bite. What do you mean? When did Gildarts intercept light and when did Erza with 1/200 of her power intercept explosions? I honestly don't remember any of that in the manga.
@darkraiden: Laxus' lightning shocks people yes. So does electricity and a lot of friction, doesn't necessarily equate to lightning. He does not move in flashes, he transforms into it and moves faster but except the on instance with Natsu, I have not seen him move fast enough to be declared "in flashes". Though he can shoot lightning from the sky. Humans can survive even the most life-threatening things sometimes, including a lightning bolt. The difference is that Laxus is using lightning magic consecutively without any major damage done to his opponents besides some bad burns and bruises from his lightning magic enhanced punches and kicks. You hit someone consecutively with a lightning bolt and they're bodies will flat out shut down. Especially someone like Gajeel since he is an Iron Dragon Slayer....that many volts woulda shut down his heart of that I have no doubt. You think that because Laxus' lightning has *some* similarities (admittedly more than I thought tho) that it equates to lightning? Nope, you ain't gonna convince anyone like that ya know?
I never said that it gives all Uchiha equal reflexes, just reaction. It has been shown that the sharingan even in it's weakest state gives precog in even it's earliest showings. here are some proof. From slowing things down that objects move slow enough to react to, not reflexes. Later, the complete sharingan would allow to read muscle movements to predict how they will act. These are traits that all sharingans share, Sasuke was getting thrashed prior to unlocking his use of the sharingan and was now able to intercept Haku's attacks and dodge his ice needles. Itachi did in fact react to lightning otherwise he would be dead...his Susanoo didn't appear at all until he stated that he brought it out t the last second. If you're getting blitzed by something than you won't even be able to see them coming or react to it. Itachi couldn't physically react but his eyes must have seen it coming in order to react to it coming down. Before you say something like "he could have prepped it beforehand", Susanoo didn't appear at all before Kirin was fired and there has always been obvious signs of Susanoo being activated. Sage Naruto fought a edo tensei version of the 3rd Raikage which is weaker than his usual self because Kabuto took total control of his mind, it is stated to be a flaw of the edo tensei. Plus while SM Naruto doesn't have the best speed feats he does have excellent reaction feats. Btw, what do you mean 5 seconds? I don't recall anything with SM Naruto that has to do with 5 secs...are you talking about the time limit of his SM? If so then he also has to overpower his opponents, not just outspeed them ya know? Pein actually also has some good speed himself since their battlefield took place over the ruins of Konoha which is a massive village...
Also about the claim that the Raikage would have gone there by foot if he was really lightning speed can be explained relatively easily. They had no idea where the battle with Madara Uchiha was taking place (which was why they were heading there in the first place) so they asked Mabui (the user of the jutsu) to transport them to that location. Simple as that. Easily explainable with mangaverse logic ^.^
Idk about claiming Wendy is bad at combat, she is still a relatively heavy hitter but yeah I figured her speed was below the "main" characters of the guild.
Humans survive lightning bolts. Why would you assume much more durable beings like Gajeel and Natsu would shut down when hit by lightning bolts? That's not a lot of great logic.
Uchiha's don't get equal anything. That's never been stated and the opposite is shown to be true. Itachi has better reaction feats than Sasuke period. Sasuke doesn't get those reaction feats. That doesn't make sense. Sasuke has never reacted to lightning, Raikage's not lightning speed (also Sasuke did react to him, turned his head, got Susanoo up, and even outsped him once to hit him with chidori). Nothing about Raikage says lightning speed. As for not knowing where Madara was, they literally did as Mabui needs coordinates just to do her technique.
Itachi likely did prep Susanoo before hand. Sasuke did give a large monologue. It's like bracing yoursefl to dodge or get hit.
SM Naruto had the 5 second thing against Pain where he couldn't reach and attack Pain in 5 seconds. That's 1000x slower than lightning speed.
@darkraiden: Gajeel by this point has better durability than most humans yes. But their insides are essentially the same. You can't train your heart to take hits so to speak. If lightning courses through your body it could do severe dmg to your body internally. Especially if it is constant. With Gajeel practically being a human lightning rod, I still maintain he would have died if Laxus used real lightning.
I literally just showed you an example of how Sasuke's sharingan helped him with it's "seeing" abilities so to speak in the Haku fight. Itachi has it, Sasuke has it, Kakashi has it. It has been stated more than a few times throughout the entire series. Itachi has better (eye) reaction feats up-to when Sasuke has MS. It is a very safe assumption seeing how the sharingan gets better precog every level. The sharingan doesn't train and it's basic abilities are inherent. It's been implied that all sharingans have precog abilities and that they are inherent into the level of the sharingan themselves. In short you will nvr see a person with a MS sharingan "see" something that another person with a MS sharingan can't. Just like the byakugan and the rinnegan, unless you're saying that the doujutsu are all different then that has been shown to be completely false. The only difference ever shown between doujutsu is when the MS sharingan gets new abilities, even then they all get Susanoo. The time with the chidori is different due to the speed boost that it gives you due to the jutsu and the fact that the Raikage practically let him as he remarked how impressive Kakashi's chidori was but that it won't cut through his Lightning Armor. The Susanoo wasn't seen at all prior to the Kirin hitting Itachi, all we know is that he managed to bring it out at the last second because the Susanoo has very recognizable aura when brought out, there has never been any mention or implication of a necessary prep for Susanoo. Which is why Sasuke was able to bring it up as a defense, so far the technique has been shown to be almost instant. (At least fast enough to respond to lightning-speed) To say otherwise without any proof in it being shown is a massive assumption on your part.
Here is base Naruto attacking Pain in a 1 second interval. What makes you think with SM he can't do better. Note Pain was able to respond to the clones near point blank range and that he actually used them to move out of the way. All this on the ruins from the chibaku tensei. I'm not saying SM is lightning-speed, I'm saying he has rly good speed and reactions.
@darkraiden: Forgot to mention that Tsunade was gonna go use the jutsu anyways so the Raikage literally just tagged along. Also we have no idea how big the Elemental Nations is so your point is kinda hard to prove.
@darkraiden: Gajeel by this point has better durability than most humans yes. But their insides are essentially the same. You can't train your heart to take hits so to speak. If lightning courses through your body it could do severe dmg to your body internally. Especially if it is constant. With Gajeel practically being a human lightning rod, I still maintain he would have died if Laxus used real lightning.
I literally just showed you an example of how Sasuke's sharingan helped him with it's "seeing" abilities so to speak in the Haku fight. Itachi has it, Sasuke has it, Kakashi has it. It has been stated more than a few times throughout the entire series. Itachi has better (eye) reaction feats up-to when Sasuke has MS. It is a very safe assumption seeing how the sharingan gets better precog every level. The sharingan doesn't train and it's basic abilities are inherent. It's been implied that all sharingans have precog abilities and that they are inherent into the level of the sharingan themselves. In short you will nvr see a person with a MS sharingan "see" something that another person with a MS sharingan can't. Just like the byakugan and the rinnegan, unless you're saying that the doujutsu are all different then that has been shown to be completely false. The only difference ever shown between doujutsu is when the MS sharingan gets new abilities, even then they all get Susanoo. The time with the chidori is different due to the speed boost that it gives you due to the jutsu and the fact that the Raikage practically let him as he remarked how impressive Kakashi's chidori was but that it won't cut through his Lightning Armor. The Susanoo wasn't seen at all prior to the Kirin hitting Itachi, all we know is that he managed to bring it out at the last second because the Susanoo has very recognizable aura when brought out, there has never been any mention or implication of a necessary prep for Susanoo. Which is why Sasuke was able to bring it up as a defense, so far the technique has been shown to be almost instant. (At least fast enough to respond to lightning-speed) To say otherwise without any proof in it being shown is a massive assumption on your part.
Here is base Naruto attacking Pain in a 1 second interval. What makes you think with SM he can't do better. Note Pain was able to respond to the clones near point blank range and that he actually used them to move out of the way. All this on the ruins from the chibaku tensei. I'm not saying SM is lightning-speed, I'm saying he has rly good speed and reactions.
I reckon Gajeel would survive the lightning given he's already survived high voltage and high levels of heat for prolonged periods of time.
I never said sharingan doesn't give a boost. I said they don't SHARE the boost. One person's feats don't transfer. Period.
SM Naruto literally failed to attack Pain within 5 seconds. I don't have to think SM can't do better. I know better.
@darkraiden: Heat? Yes due to Natsu's attacks but that can be tanked through external durability but voltage? Fuck no. Like I said you can't train your innards to tank an attack. You get hit by real lightning-level voltage then you're done, finished because your heart will either explode or flat out shut down. Since it doesn't? Laxus' lightning isn't real lightning.
They DO share because all eye abilities are the same for their specific doujutsu. All Byakugans can see a person's chakra network and their insides. They all have that ability. All Rinnegans can use Pain's abilities, they all have that ability. All sharingans have precog and can "see" attacks at faster speeds to so they can react to them properly. They all have that ability. MS sharingan is no different, thus yes Sasuke's eyes can react to lightning-speed since Itachi's near-blind ones could. Period.
He did, but the difference is that while he failed, he was still able to attack him. In order to keep up with Pain, SM Naruto needs to be damn fast since Pain was able to do all that in the course of 1 second and react to shadow clones so close to his position. All I'm sayin' :P
@darkraiden: Heat? Yes due to Natsu's attacks but that can be tanked through external durability but voltage? Fuck no. Like I said you can't train your innards to tank an attack. You get hit by real lightning-level voltage then you're done, finished because your heart will either explode or flat out shut down. Since it doesn't? Laxus' lightning isn't real lightning.
They DO share because all eye abilities are the same for their specific doujutsu. All Byakugans can see a person's chakra network and their insides. They all have that ability. All Rinnegans can use Pain's abilities, they all have that ability. All sharingans have precog and can "see" attacks at faster speeds to so they can react to them properly. They all have that ability. MS sharingan is no different, thus yes Sasuke's eyes can react to lightning-speed since Itachi's near-blind ones could. Period.
He did, but the difference is that while he failed, he was still able to attack him. In order to keep up with Pain, SM Naruto needs to be damn fast since Pain was able to do all that in the course of 1 second and react to shadow clones so close to his position. All I'm sayin' :P
It's an anime/manga. He doesn't have to train his insides. And that's faulty logic. Because a more durable person didn't die, the lightning isn't real lightning. That's completely disregarding the possibility that he's just more durable.
All Sharingan people have minor muscle-based, chakra-based precog and the ability to see at faster speeds yes. But they're not all equal. And that's a fact. You're 100% wrong and presumptuous here. Itachi>Sasuke by feats. Sasuke doesn't get his feats.
Doing all of that (dodging one attack) in the course of 1 second isn't particularly fast. Stands that SM Naruto isn't close to lightning speed but is faster than the Raikage.
@sondeatheater: There's the famous "OP is much faster than FT" bs.
Did you even read my post? Erza herself is at least MHS+ and Gildarts be intercepting lights.
Proof?And, I never specified MHS+/MHS but regardless, noone showed such feats nor do any of their feats are consistently at MHS+ or even MHS
And Dragons travel the continent (calced to be around the same diameter as our planet) in a matter of seconds. OP is not that much faster than FT if at all.
No time frame is even given and Dragons are the high high tier too.Not to mention a lack of proof that FT's continent is that big or close to it.
And again, not all dragons have to travel around the whole continent.
I'll ask for the feat of how their continent is earth sized.
@darkraiden: Gajeel by this point has better durability than most humans yes. But their insides are essentially the same. You can't train your heart to take hits so to speak. If lightning courses through your body it could do severe dmg to your body internally. Especially if it is constant. With Gajeel practically being a human lightning rod, I still maintain he would have died if Laxus used real lightning.
I literally just showed you an example of how Sasuke's sharingan helped him with it's "seeing" abilities so to speak in the Haku fight. Itachi has it, Sasuke has it, Kakashi has it. It has been stated more than a few times throughout the entire series. Itachi has better (eye) reaction feats up-to when Sasuke has MS. It is a very safe assumption seeing how the sharingan gets better precog every level. The sharingan doesn't train and it's basic abilities are inherent. It's been implied that all sharingans have precog abilities and that they are inherent into the level of the sharingan themselves. In short you will nvr see a person with a MS sharingan "see" something that another person with a MS sharingan can't. Just like the byakugan and the rinnegan, unless you're saying that the doujutsu are all different then that has been shown to be completely false. The only difference ever shown between doujutsu is when the MS sharingan gets new abilities, even then they all get Susanoo. The time with the chidori is different due to the speed boost that it gives you due to the jutsu and the fact that the Raikage practically let him as he remarked how impressive Kakashi's chidori was but that it won't cut through his Lightning Armor. The Susanoo wasn't seen at all prior to the Kirin hitting Itachi, all we know is that he managed to bring it out at the last second because the Susanoo has very recognizable aura when brought out, there has never been any mention or implication of a necessary prep for Susanoo. Which is why Sasuke was able to bring it up as a defense, so far the technique has been shown to be almost instant. (At least fast enough to respond to lightning-speed) To say otherwise without any proof in it being shown is a massive assumption on your part.
Here is base Naruto attacking Pain in a 1 second interval. What makes you think with SM he can't do better. Note Pain was able to respond to the clones near point blank range and that he actually used them to move out of the way. All this on the ruins from the chibaku tensei. I'm not saying SM is lightning-speed, I'm saying he has rly good speed and reactions.
I reckon Gajeel would survive the lightning given he's already survived high voltage and high levels of heat for prolonged periods of time.
I never said sharingan doesn't give a boost. I said they don't SHARE the boost. One person's feats don't transfer. Period.
SM Naruto literally failed to attack Pain within 5 seconds. I don't have to think SM can't do better. I know better.
but silvers feats count for Gray? ah ok, i forgot your double standard you are only using if its suits you.
for you Sage Mode 5 secs intervall bs, i dont know if you are trolling or if you didnt read some chapters at all.
- for the 5 sec thingy naruto isnt in sm-mode anymore, he throws a rasenshuriken in sm-mode and pain uses his shinra tensei to get rid of it (theres a second one naruto hid)
- sm-mode is gone and the 5 sec interval starts after pain dealt with the first shuriken
sm-mode naruto throws a rasenshuriken
pain uses his ST
- sm-mode is gone as we see in the bottom left picture and the 5 sec interval starts
narutos shadow clones try to hold Pain so the shuriken he hid would hit him but they fail
- 4 seconds left
- we see pain jumping to evade the RS
-3 seconds left
all the shadows clones naruto disguised as rocks change back
- 2 seconds left
all the shadows clones attack
- times up and pain uses his ST again to get rid of the clones
the clones block each other and naruto starts his final attack
and all that without sm-mode, this is BASE NARUTO
i cant wait how you talk yourself out of your claim
@rektpride: you were right btw, naruto never used SM-mode after throwing his two shurikens. so everything happening in the 5 secs was base narutos doing. (see my post above)
@darkraiden: No ya see, Gajeel is more durable than the average human externally. But inside he is still human. Until it is shown or stated that his insides are much tougher than that of a human, his insides is equatible to ours. Yes manga/anime throws away logic but everything such as the fact they breathe oxygen or the fact that they are human are assumed until stated otherwise.
No...like I said all doujutsu are equal in their abilities across the board. Unless you're telling me that all Byakugans are different? Or that one with the Rinnegan doesn't have access to Nagato's abilities? It isn't presumptious at all I think. I'm pretty sure I'm right. His muscle movement isn't as impressive as Itachi's but thats not my argument, my argument is that his MS has the same precog abilities as Itachi since all doujutsu same the same basic abilities as I've stated before. It's all based on that simple fact. SM Naruto is fast. Let's just leave it at that for now lol
@darkraiden: No ya see, Gajeel is more durable than the average human externally. But inside he is still human. Until it is shown or stated that his insides are much tougher than that of a human, his insides is equatible to ours. Yes manga/anime throws away logic but everything such as the fact they breathe oxygen or the fact that they are human are assumed until stated otherwise.
No...like I said all doujutsu are equal in their abilities across the board. Unless you're telling me that all Byakugans are different? Or that one with the Rinnegan doesn't have access to Nagato's abilities? It isn't presumptious at all I think. I'm pretty sure I'm right. His muscle movement isn't as impressive as Itachi's but thats not my argument, my argument is that his MS has the same precog abilities as Itachi since all doujutsu same the same basic abilities as I've stated before. It's all based on that simple fact. SM Naruto is fast. Let's just leave it at that for now lol
Yeah all Byakugan ARE different. Neji was able to see chakra points, Hinata couldn't. Neji could see like 1 KM and Hinata could see 5 IIRC. They're all completely different. Madara and Tobi never used all of Nagato's abilities.
MS doesn't even have precog if you go by given statements. The doujutsu have the same basic abilities. But they're not all equal for each person. Never have been. Never will be.
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