Unalaq vs Zuko

You showed yourself that full AS bending >> momentary lol.

That doesn't mean Korra and Unalaq were amped throughout the fight

Since they were using it, they were amped. Easy as that.

What we know is avatar korra >> Unalaq,

but unalaq with vaatu at least = korra - which is not possible without an amp, and the amp was shown on-screen.

Umm...no, I didn't.

They only used it for individual, power moves: breaking out of the ice for Korra and the tug of war for both of them, maybe one other instance I'm forgetting. The amp didn't go beyond that

AS Korra > regular Unalaq

However, Korra wasn't in the Avatar State for most of the fight, neither was Unalaq. There's no indication that a brief flash of the Avatar State amps bending for more than a few seconds for a powerful move.

They are either in the avatar state or not. There is no half avatar state. Though I could be misunderstanding you here. When Korra broke out of the fissure. she is in the avatar state, but only briefly. In the Tug of war, Unalaq entered his and remains in it, until Vaatu came of his mouth.

The avatars only get he amp when they go into the avatar state. When they do the brief glow, they get a momentary amp , instead of a continuous one. The momentary amp last no longer than 1-2 moves, and then the power vanishes, until they go back into it again. Just look at how powerful Korra's bending was when she broke out of the fissure. It knocked non Unalaq on his butt. Now compare that bending display to the subsequent fight sequence between the two avatars. They were both fighting each other in base.

It is clear in the sequence where korra is performing those series of backflips, that she wasn't in the AS. it was just normal bending.

Roku had no reason not to prolong his avatar state. I was thinking about this the other. Roku could have used the elemental sphere move Aang used, which have not only allowed him to fly, but woudl have prevented the gasses from reaching him

Without the amp, unalaq is practically fodder to AS korra, as shown by their earlier encounter.

That is irrelevance as Korra was mostly fighting Non AS Korra outside the avatar state. Non AS Korra and Non AS Unalaq are roughly equal, with Koraa having the slight advantage. The fight between makes that clear.

You keep bringing in full AS for no reason lol.

They were using momentary AS flashes - they were Amped.

When they use brief avatar state, their bending is amped - implying both korra and unalaq were amped during their fight, even if they didn't use it all at once - if they did, we already know how powerful their individual moves can be after the glow, and korra's flame pillar was nowhere near that level.

Unalaq was freaking godlike when it came to waterbending. I give it to him.

@princearagorn1:

Yes, they were amped for a brief moment after flashing and during any time their eyes were glowing. That's it. The majority of their fight doesn't fall under either of those categories

That's false - The amp lasted well after the momentary glow since they didn't get any weaker during the fight.

@princearagorn1:

Korra's air/fire spout and subsequent air slice was more powerful than her later bending. Unalaq entered it when he merged with Vaatu, but by the time they exited the Spirit World the amp had worn off

? By what logic?

This is how much power the brief glow is capable of:

They used the amp for a long while. Simple as that.

If unalaq was at his regular power level, korra with her avatar state would have ended him instantly like before - but she couldn't.

@princearagorn1:

By what logic for which part?

This is getting to be circular. Korra amped herself to break out of the ice and a subsequent air slice (Unalaq also avoided her air slice in the Spirit World). Unalaq didn't need to amp himself to match Korra because Korra wasn't amped.

Other than the moves I've mentioned that were clearly a result of AS, what did Korra do in that fight that seemed to be beyond her regular bending capabilities? Because if she was amped, her moves would be significantly stronger

Not that this means much, but does anyone feel that Korra is a ridiculously weak Avatar?

@deranged_midget: sometimes, maybe, though that's partly due to plot imo. It's not like Aang was all high showings, and I think Korra's got some powerful showings too that can be overlooked

@arcus:

This is getting to be circular. Korra amped herself to break out of the ice and a subsequent air slice (Unalaq also avoided her air slice in the Spirit World). Unalaq didn't need to amp himself to match Korra because Korra wasn't amped.

Which is wrong, since he had the glow.

Other than the moves I've mentioned that were clearly a result of AS, what did Korra do in that fight that seemed to be beyond her regular bending capabilities? Because if she was amped, her moves would be significantly stronger

The problem with that is she was amped - that's what the glow does. There's no way to sidestep that.

Korra glowed, so did unalaq, they were both amped.

@princearagorn1:

Where's the proof that the amp lasts for longer than a moment when an Avatar flashes briefly into the Avatar State? Because I don't see any indication in that fight that the amp lasted longer than a move or two, nor has there been any indication of that

Just to be clear - you're accepting they were amped?

@princearagorn1: they were amped briefly for certain moves, yes, that's what I've been saying

Korra and Unalaq weren't glowing the entire time. In fact, Unalaq only glows once during their entire fight, excluding his glow when his fusion with Vaatu was complete. From then on out, Unalaq did not once go into the avatar state. From the the moment he emerges from the spirit portal, he does not go into the AS, meaning that everything we see him do from that point on, until the tug of war, was all his own power.

Depends on your definition of 'brief':

She glows at 17:23 and lasts well till 18:00 at island level output.

Now take a look here:

Let's see - unalaq is glowing at 0:55, Korra is glowing at 1:03, korra is glowing fully at 2:08-2:25 (here if unalaq doesn't amp himself, he'd have been fodderized, so he did), and unalaq is glowing at 3:03 -they were amped throughout.

For the fifth time, no one said they were glowing the entire time - they glowed, which caused their bending in base well beyond normal level as depicted throughout the show. Aang, for example.

Even if he's not glowing, this is NOT under his own power -

both unalaq and korra glowed in their fight, so they were amped. By all means, check other fights with unalaq and tell me seriously he's as powerful in base as when he's fused with vaatu. Weak as korra's avatar state is, she's still capable of fodderizing non-amped unalaq. She already showed that, and she went at unalaq in full avatar state at 2:25. Only one thing changed, he was amped with the glow before.

@princearagorn1:

Kyoshi's flash lasted long enough for her to accomplish one action, which supports what I've been saying

If Korra and Unalaq were amped for their entire fight, then it's the some of the weakest Avatar State bending I've ever seen. Other than the amped moves I've mentioned, nothing they did was reasonably beyond their capabilities

You keep mentioning Korra's Avatar State fodderizing Unalaq, but Unalaq already showed he can avoid an Avatar State attack when Korra blasted away his spirit army in the Spirit World

@arcus:

Kyoshi's flash lasted long enough for her to accomplish one action, which supports what I've been saying

'one action'?

1. Split the island 2. Bring the lava up to separate 3. Take the island away.

At those outputs, it still lasted about half a minute...

If Korra and Unalaq were amped for their entire fight, then it's the some of the weakest Avatar State bending I've ever seen. Other than the amped moves I've mentioned, nothing they did was reasonably beyond their capabilities

They were amped, there isn't a way around it.

You keep mentioning Korra's Avatar State fodderizing Unalaq, but Unalaq already showed he can avoid an Avatar State attack when Korra blasted away his spirit army in the Spirit World

When she was targetting an entire army. That's hardly a one on one condition - one on one, she was thrown aside with zero effort. As weak as korra's avatar state is, you're still severely underestimating her.

One Action=forming Kyoshi island

Yes there is-the amps were only brief

I'm underestimating her? You're the one saying that the whole fight is her AS level bending, when that would make her Avatar State ridiculously weak.

Unalaq wasn't amped at all. As I already mention there is no point during the fight, from the time he exits the portal to the tug of war, where he enters the avatar state. Not once during both fight sequences. He exists the portal, briefly engages Korra, and then knocks her down onto the ice. He is then shown on his water spout looking down at her for severals seconds. If you think otherwise, give an instance where he goes into to the AS between existing the portal-Tug of war.

I always thought a fully realised Avatar does not have perpetually glowing eyes when in the Avatar State. Kyoshi was in the Avatar State but she doesn't have constantly glowing eyes like Aang before he had mastered it, nor do they collapse from exhaustion afterwards, just like none of the other Avatars do when they exit the Avatar State.

@rogueshadow: Fully realized Avatars can enter the Avatar State briefly for a short boost, but their eyes still glow continuously for an extended Avatar State. Aang's did in the comics, and Korra's have in the series whenever she's been in an extended Avatae State

He was in avatar state just when the fight started.

By that logic, one action = fighting unalaq.

Yes there is-the amps were only brief

And repeated throughout the fight.

I'm underestimating her? You're the one saying that the whole fight is her AS level bending, when that would make her Avatar State ridiculously weak.

Have you not read anything I have written to this point? For gazillionth time, they're NOT in Avatar state - they're Amped by momentary flashes .

@princearagorn1:

1. Yeah, he was in it when the fight started, so was Korra, and clearly any amp there was didn't last that long because Korra had to enter it again to break the ice

2. A fight is not an uninterrupted, planned out set of actions to achieve a single, bending effect. Forming Kyoshi Island was

3. When did Unalaq repeat his amp between his initial AS (which we know didn't last because Korra's didn't) and the tug of war?

4. A momentary flash amps Avatars to AS level bending briefly. There's no difference in the level of power, just the duration. You're saying the amp lasted through the entire fight until they flashed again

@princearagorn1

He was in avatar state just when the fight started.

When Unalaq emerges from the portal, his eyes are no longer glowing red. The next time his eyes glow, is when he enters the avatar state during the tug of war. In other words, from that time period, Unalaq wasn't in the AS and wasn't amped.

@arcus:

1. Yeah, he was in it when the fight started, so was Korra, and clearly any amp there was didn't last that long because Korra had to enter it again to break the ice

Wrong. Korra wasn't in avatar state when the fight started, she hadn't entered it since she tried to lock vaatu.

2. What even is that? Every action can be broken down to steps, or considered a whole. You can't twist it as you want to.

3. When did Unalaq repeat his amp between his initial AS (which we know didn't last because Korra's didn't) and the tug of war?

When korra in full avatar state attacked him with "you cannot win" - without amp he'd have been one shotted as usual.

4. A momentary flash amps Avatars to AS level bending briefly. There's no difference in the level of power, just the duration. You're saying the amp lasted through the entire fight until they flashed again

They weren't using it at full output... Kyoshi's lasted half a minute at island level. The fight was nowhere near that level and had several flashes in four minutes.

Right, when they need it for a brief time their eyes flash, but they are still in the AS, it's just that they aren't going to be using for an extended length of time.

Let's see:

Let's see - glowing at 0:53 - right when the fight starts => Amped.

1. 1:04 her eyes are glowing

2. You mean you don't see the difference between Kyoshi forming the island and a fight?

3. Korra used a different, much more avoidable attack that time

4. So they amped themselves...they just barely amped themselves so that their bending wasn't really all that enhanced for most of the fight?

Yeah, that's what he's saying. His eyes glow when the fight starts and don't glow again until the tug of war. That's the point he's trying to make

Exactly, that's my point. The boost only lasts for a moment

Right, that's what I thought anyway, scanning through the posts I started to get confused about what y'all were saying.

@arcus:

1. 1:04 her eyes are glowing

...Their fight started at 0:53.

2. You mean you don't see the difference between Kyoshi forming the island and a fight?

I guess you forgot what you wrote - you were trying to say that a fight is not one action, but creating an island is - fact is, both are not.

3. Korra used a different, much more avoidable attack that time?

She used an air blast, and he avoided it - she attacked him, and they went on to fight. Not possible for an unalaq without amp as seen earlier.

4. So they amped themselves...they just barely amped themselves so that their bending wasn't really all that enhanced for most of the fight?

Amped to an extent throughout the fight.

==================

Simply put, nonamped unalaq who was one shotted by korra < zuko < amped unalaq who was taking on AS korra <=> amped korra.

@rogueshadow: haha yeah, that's understandable. My point is that Unalaq and Korra weren't amped for their entire fight

@princearagorn1:

1. The actual fight doesn't start until sometime around 0:57. My point that Korra's amp was gone by the time Unalaq trapped her in the ice still stands

2. No I did not forget, forming the island was a single feat of bending with different parts, very different from a fight

3. So we're just going to ignore that Korra's attack was completely different earlier-an air funnel instead of an air slice?

4. Pretty negligible amp based on their feats if there is one

@arcus:

The actual fight doesn't start until sometime around 0:57. My point that Korra's amp was gone by the time Unalaq trapped her in the ice still stands.

The amps lasted different time every time we have seen them.. Korra's amp running out doesn't imply unalaq's did, too.

No I did not forget, forming the island was a single feat of bending with different parts, very different from a fight

How can you classify that as a single feat when it clearly involved multiple steps, but not the fight?

So we're just going to ignore that Korra's attack was completely different earlier-an air funnel instead of an air slice?

No - we're seeing the results. Unalaq isn't capable of fighting AS korra at all, and he did when he fused with vaatu.

Pretty negligible amp based on their feats if there is one

...An amp that allows him to keep up with characters who one shot him isn't negligible at all.

@princearagorn1:

So then we have no way of knowing how long they're amped, meaning that you have no way to prove that an amp lasted any significant amount of time

Because it was all related as part of the same, clearly defined action-forming the island. A fight isn't that nice and orderly, formed up of very related steps

Aang had one-shotted Zuko before, yet Zuko's also been able to keep up with Aang in fights. Does that mean Zuko was amped? No, it just means Aang didn't use the same attack

Korra didn't use the air funnel again on Unalaq, she used an air slice, something he's avoided before

Unalaq also had access to much more water in the physical world for maneuverability, and he wasn't distracted waiting to merge with Vaatu

You say Korra's amped, but other than the instances I've mentioned her attacks don't seem amped at all. Why?

@arcus:

So then we have no way of knowing how long they're amped, meaning that you have no way to prove that an amp lasted any significant amount of time.

lol. We know for a fact that an amp is there - if you say it isn't present during a particular amount of time, the burden of proof is on you.

Because it was all related as part of the same, clearly defined action-forming the island. A fight isn't that nice and orderly, formed up of very related steps

"Nice and orderly" is not a defined classification of any kind at all. Forming an island is as much of an action as fighting a fight.

Aang had one-shotted Zuko before, yet Zuko's also been able to keep up with Aang in fights. Does that mean Zuko was amped? No, it just means Aang didn't use the same attack.

uh, when did zuko keep up with avatar aang?

Korra didn't use the air funnel again on Unalaq, she used an air slice, something he's avoided before

In avatar state? no he hasn't. We have

Unalaq also had access to much more water in the physical world for maneuverability, and he wasn't distracted waiting to merge with Vaatu

...And that helps him avoid korra how?

You say Korra's amped, but other than the instances I've mentioned her attacks don't seem amped at all. Why?

'don't seem amped'? What even is that?

She has the glow, and the glow amps her. Regular Unalaq gets one shotted when she is amped, it follows he is amped as well.

@princearagorn1:

I've already shown the amp not lasting more than a couple seconds, meaning that just because there's a glow doesn't mean they're amped for a significant period of time. You need to prove that they are

So you honestly don't see the difference between the two, at all?

He knocked him off the ship in the first episide, kept up with him in Bato of the Water Tribe and Crystal Catacombs

He avoided a much larger air slice when she dispersed his spirit army. The AS attack she used after freeing herself from the ice was not that big. You're getting stuck on this idea that AS Korra one-shots Unalaq always and ignoring the fact that she used a completely different attack. Not all AS attacks are the same

Water spout

Compare her attacks during the fight to her attacks in other fights. They don't seem amped to me. Yes, there was a glow at some points in the fight, but I've already established that the boost can be as brief as a few seconds, and then the Avatar goes back to normal levels

@arcus:

I've already shown the amp not lasting more than a couple seconds, meaning that just because there's a glow doesn't mean they're amped for a significant period of time. You need to prove that they are.

The glow lasts half a minute at island level outputs, and korra glowed thrice in four minutes.

So you honestly don't see the difference between the two, at all?

In the "Nice and orderly" way you're trying to show? No.

I can see the difference, in the island feat will require much more output than the fight.

He knocked him off the ship in the first episide, kept up with him in Bato of the Water Tribe and Crystal Catacombs.

Invalid example - they had a long fight in first episode. Zuko was one shotted by avatar aang, and they didn't face again.

He avoided a much larger air slice when she dispersed his spirit army.

Yep, unalaq with army vs korra is not a 1 on 1 fight.

The AS attack she used after freeing herself from the ice was not that big. You're getting stuck on this idea that AS Korra one-shots Unalaq always and ignoring the fact that she used a completely different attack. Not all AS attacks are the same.

In their one on one fight, he was fodder. Only thing that happened in between was vaatu amp.

Compare her attacks during the fight to her attacks in other fights. They don't seem amped to me. Yes, there was a glow at some points in the fight, but I've already established that the boost can be as brief as a few seconds, and then the Avatar goes back to normal levels

Uh - there's not even an argument about korra - she glows repeatedly throughout the fight, implying she's amping herself. Only one questionable is unalaq, and he can't keep up with amped korra at all, based on what we saw earlier.

@princearagorn1:

Prove that the amp lasted that long here

Well I'm not sure how else to explain that one feat of bending, even if it has multiple parts, is completely different from a fight

How is that an invalid example? Those are three examples of him keeping up with Aang

So you're just going to continue to ignore the completely different stacks used?

I've addressed the glow multiple times. Other than there being a glow earlier that might or might not have resulted in an amp that had a lasting effect, what makes her attacks different from feats she has when not amped? How are they more powerful? Particularly towards the end of the fight, before the tug of war

@princearagorn1@arcus

Prove that the amp lasted that long here

Can anyone prove that the amp didn't last that long during Unalaq and Korra's battle?

@arcus:

Prove that the amp lasted that long here.

Actually, you're the one claiming it ran out at a certain point, so you have to prove it.

Well I'm not sure how else to explain that one feat of bending, even if it has multiple parts, is completely different from a fight.

If you can't explain, you shouldn't make the argument lol.

How is that an invalid example? Those are three examples of him keeping up with Aang.

Exactly - he keeps up with aang regularly, but avatar state aang one shots him.

So you're just going to continue to ignore the completely different stacks used?

No, I'm going with the results.

I've addressed the glow multiple times. Other than there being a glow earlier that might or might not have resulted in an amp that had a lasting effect, what makes her attacks different from feats she has when not amped? How are they more powerful? Particularly towards the end of the fight, before the tug of war

That's where the problem is - the glow amps. There is no 'might not'. It's an established fact you're trying to go against.

Korra was glowing => she was amped. Unalaq can't fight her when she is amped => He was also amped. No matter how you twist it, the conclusion is inevitable.

@princearagorn1:

I've already shown it running out after a few seconds, why assume it went longer than that?

I've already explained it, it seems obvious to me that a fight and forming the island are different

Regular Aang has one-shotted him before too

Unalaq got BFR'd by one attack, he avoided two other attacks that were different than the one that BFR'd him. There's the results. If Korra had attempted to use the same move that she BFR'd him with earlier again and he blocked/avoided it, then you would have a valid point, but that's not what happened

Then explain why her atracks aren't more powerful than when she's not amped. Simply saying "she glowed earlier" isn't enough when we can plainly see the attacks and compare them

@arcus: lol. We're literally going in circles here..

Glowing signifies amp that can last half a minute at island level outputs - Fact.

Both korra and unalaq glowed the clip, so they were amped - Fact.

You really have no way to deny it. GG.

@princearagorn1:

The amp can also last for a few seconds-Fact

Korra's initial amp did not last more than a few seconds-fact

There is no way for you to prove that any of the other amps in this fight lasted longer than Korra's initial amp (without a continuous glow)-fact

I've never denied that they were amped at points.

I don't have to, lol. My entire point was that they are amped, which is consistent with what shown - if you're saying their amp ran out, you need definite proof, which you don't have.

I've never denied that they were amped at points.

And there you go.

Unalaq < zuko < comet zuko < vaatu unalaq.