@time: And the wall stands strong as time goes off on a tangent completely ignoring the point of my post, good job. Love all of the evidence you've provided of the Phoenix going insane by itself before AvX. You know, the time Scott was suppose to have learned this lesson you speak of? The juvenile 4 year old insults surely are the strongest part of your argument.

@time said:

@imperial90

I think your being arrogant, cause you don't see the damage the Phoenix force cause.

Cyclops was the leader of the Phoenix five, so he is responsible for what they did, cause he is there leader. Namor never encounter the Phoenix before, so he doesn't know what it was like. So Cyclops should of kept eye on the Phoenix five. He should of went to the one person who has control the Phoenix force , Rachel and she could of help them deal with it.

The Phoenix force may been different, cause it was separated among five of them, but doesn't mean she couldn't of help them.

Cyclops didn't listen to Charles, Charles wanted him to stop and Cyclops didn't, then he became Dark Phoenix. If Cyclops listen to people before, that wouldn't of happen.

Cyclops knows the Phoenix force corrupts, so he should of know better.

Anyways didn't the Avengers help Hope with Phoenix force anyway ? Didn't Scarlet Witch help Hope save the mutant race.

If Cyclops is saint, why are the X-Men not following him anymore ?. Why didn't they stop the Avengers from arresting him.

Just for the record Cyclops kick Charles out of the X-Men and he got involved cause, he knows what Cyclops was doing was wrong. So did Magneto by the way, that's why he called Charles. By the way Cyclops didn't listen to Charles in the first place, when he first show up at Utopia .

As we know Phoenix force can also be controlled a la Rachel Summers for YEARS. Cyclops, aside maybe Rachel, is probably the world's leading expert on the PF! He spent at least ten years of his life with its avatar! His telepathic bond with Jean should give him understanding that's unparalleled. You criticise Cyclops, but for the majority of the time he was the most in control of the PF.

The very fact that the Phoenix Five get the Phoenix Power is due to Stark's arrogance and the Avengers' ignorance. Scott and the other P5 members did not want the power for themselves. Cyclops wanted Hope to live up to her destiny, something she'd trained her whole life for, and accept the PF and reverse M-Day. It's irrelevant whether or not Namor had experience of the Phoenix - The Avengers didn't either.

Interesting how the P5 only became unstable/hostile after constant provocation from the Avengers.... To clarify, the Avengers made the Phoenix Five, then proceeded to make them unstable by their constant harassment.

Scarlet Witch is responsible for the chain of events that lead to current state of the MU, well, post M-Day all because she couldn't let go of her children who really never existed. The Avengers helped Hope. Correct.

Do you know who else helped Hope? Cable, who devoted sixteen/seventeen years of his life to doing so, and Cyclops.

Why would anyone listen to Charles? He's a manipulative liar. His dream is all very well and good, but his public persona is a front. Everyone's memories of this manipulative bastard are entirely rose-tinted.

Does no one recall him knowingly sending four underprepared teenagers to save his original students on Krakoa resulting in their deaths (well, as good as - for Vulcan and Darwin), constantly altering and mind-wiping those around him, keeping the sentient Danger as a prisoner for years etc etc? Even more fundamental, training children to fight and sending them out against a plethora of threats to defend his dream is just damn wrong.

How many people have died due to Charles' dream? Charles failed his own dream.

@time said:

yclops may have good intentions at first, but then he turn evil and became Dark Phoenix.

The the rest of Phoenix five turn evil too. They become corrupted by the Phoenix force.

Cyclops and Emma did know the risks and they ignore it.

Your dumb.

After constant provovation they were corrupted. Cyclops kept it all in check until AvX 11. And if you actually read the comics, opposed to letting personal bias getting in the way, you'd note that Cyclops had good intentions all the way through "wanting a world where his children could grow up, free from the mess of time-travel etc" - this is what Cyclops is thinking whilst "he's" out of control as Dark Phoenix. The Avengers were responsible for making Cyclops become Dark Phoenix.

They also knew the potential good - which was demonstrated for the majority of the event.

No need to insult people, Time....

@John Valentine: When people resort to personal insults you know they no longer have anything of worth to say in that discussion, you can see it in how he's tried to repeatedly squirm out of his point without just admitting his first point was wrong, he just repeatedly mentions his other points even though I hadn't even touched on them.

@time: What Scott did with the PF compared to what Wanda did is not even comparable. Wanda killed, changed reality, and erased the mutant gene. Scott................................killed Professor X. Namor destroyed wakanda not Cyclops. If Cyclops is to blame for that because he's the leader then Captain America should be blamed for House of M because the X-Men came to help and he told them the AVENGERS would handle it.........and even with that The X-Men STILL had to step in and help.

The history of the Phoenix is 80 percent good. Rachel had it for YEARS, Jean for years. The Phoenix only...................I repeat only turns Dark when provoked. Lets see what really happened during AVX:Um the were saving the world, fixing deserts, curing hunger,and ending wars. What happened after that......they tried to kidnap Hope despite havingno real reason to do it. Didnt Cyclops save Hawkeyes life? The people who are saying these things obviously haven't read AVX or don't know the Phoenix history. The X-men have dealt with the Phoenix everytime with minimum casualties now all of a sudden the Avengers who NEVER dealt with it becomes the experts at it? WOW.

@imperial90: @time:

@SaintJohn said:

@time: What Scott did with the PF compared to what Wanda did is not even comparable. Wanda killed, changed reality, and erased the mutant gene. Scott................................killed Professor X. Namor destroyed wakanda not Cyclops. If Cyclops is to blame for that because he's the leader then Captain America should be blamed for House of M because the X-Men came to help and he told them the AVENGERS would handle it.........and even with that The X-Men STILL had to step in and help.

The history of the Phoenix is 80 percent good. Rachel had it for YEARS, Jean for years. The Phoenix only...................I repeat only turns Dark when provoked. Lets see what really happened during AVX:Um the were saving the world, fixing deserts, curing hunger,and ending wars. What happened after that......they tried to kidnap Hope despite havingno real reason to do it. Didnt Cyclops save Hawkeyes life? The people who are saying these things obviously haven't read AVX or don't know the Phoenix history. The X-men have dealt with the Phoenix everytime with minimum casualties now all of a sudden the Avengers who NEVER dealt with it becomes the experts at it? WOW.

i think there is no dark phoenix....its just regular people's dark thoughts taking over vs good thoughts

@TheCrowbar: You, sir, have answered these questions correctly.

Also, I'm not going to lie, I'm not a Cyclops fan. I've been following (and absolutely loving) Wolverine and The X-Men, and my personal opinion (which is in no way being forced upon anyone) is that Wolverine was right. As leader of the mutant race, Cyclops shouldn't just be charging children into battle. Along the way, he lost sight of what Xavier taught him. Xavier wanted future mutants to be able to integrate into human society, Cyclops took them all to Utopia and trained them to be soldiers. I just feel that Wolverine's approach is the right one, teaching the children that a peaceful integration is the better solution.

@maddpanda: Utopia was created out of Norman Osborn's attack on them. With little to no protection from Shield or the metahuman community(Avengers FF etc) the X-men had no choice but to fortify their position. They were 3 attempted cullings prior to Utopia, and 2 of them were mostly successful. 2 attempted cullings post Utopia none of them were successful.

The school is very much needed now, but Wolverine was not right. In that situation militarization was the only course for their survival.

@TheCrowbar@maddpanda:

• WaTXM is a silly book.
• Cyclops didn't force children into battle, he let them fight for their own survival as opposed to being sitting ducks. (The "children" in question being older teenage mutants who had had to fight for their very existence for a large proportion of their lives - they're by no means inexperienced).
• Training these mutants on Utopia was necessary for their survival.
• Utopia is not any less safe than a school in Westchester...
• Not only do these Westchester have to deal with the normal anti-mutant threats, they also have to deal with Wolverine's own, personal enemies who'd gut them just to prove a point to Wolverine.
• What is it that the JGSHL actually teaches these mutants, anyway? Most of the classes seem ridiculous and irrelevant.

@John Valentine: Why did you @ me on this?

@TheCrowbar said:

@John Valentine: Why did you @ me on this?

Was a continuation of your conversation.

@SaintJohn: the reason i dont like scott now is because he kiled someone he loved (xavier)

stop the hate.... hate is a 2 sided demon.

@John Valentine: Ahh fair enough I wasn't sure what sort of response you were looking for from me.

I can't answer this because I choose not to read AvX... Sorry! But i've always hated Cyclops as a character anyway.

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?- i felt they shouldve detained wanda, where she could not harm anyone else unless she undid what she caused (and still be rehabilitated). pym should've had his avengers membership revoked , funny how wonder man , d-man , & quicksilver did less but where treated like war criminals

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it? -wolverine is a fan favorite so will never be ostracized for his past (this coming from a fan ) even though he should not have been made an avenger , beast has felt the pressure of being a endangered species and decided it was a necessary evil (and it was cyclops' idea for black-ops x-force in the first place) and didn't cyclops admit to knowing what he was doing while inhabiting phoenix?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope? yes , i blame bad writing and planning AvX was atrocious and it ruined a lot of characters ,i can see iron man acting that way but not cap , cap is way more compassionate and would have loaned the avengers' resources and manpower to confront phoenix

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself? like i explained with beast , cyke was under the pressure of his species becoming extinct, im not jumping on the i love cyclops bandwagon , he has always been a tactical leader and with the new series i would like to see how these past event can be rectified

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X? i didn't read past the debut of phoenix 5 i dropped all AvX material until consequences

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers? read answer for 3)

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

I cannot answer this because I gave up reading AvX at issue 4.

that would be my answer as well but i read the whole thing.So my answer is:that AvX was badly written,and everyone was a douche.

I think Marvel is responsible for Madelyne Pryor's situation. The post phoenix death arc and the duel were never Storm's arc, to begin with. They are the arcs of both Cyclops and Storm. While Storm's arc is about rising to the situation and become the leader, Cyclops's one focuses on finally letting go of the X-Men and grow up as a man. The moment Jean dies and reborn as Phoenix (which Marvel screwed Chris Claremont over by reviving Jean Grey), we all know that something will be different. Instead of Jean getting a rise in her own power, the Phoenix represents her as being who is possessed and slowly losing control over herself. At the end of her suicide, Cyke feels as if his bonds to the X-Men are also lost.

Now comes another character who basically looks like Jean, but she has none of Jean's powers, to begin with. Furthermore, in many situations, even in the current stories, it was hinted that Scott and Jean are holding each other back while being a support to each other as well. It was exactly why in the post-Jean death stories Scott's character arc felt as if it is going through the development phase. After Scott lost Jean, he felt as if he lost his will to stay and fight. With Madelyne, Chris Claremont's supposed happy ending involves Scott leaving the X-Men to show that he had grown as a character, before returning to the original crew, except Dazzler replacing Jean in the X-Factor series.

The duel, where Scott was forced to accept his new reality as an incapable leader because of his struggles in deciding, which was the best choice between his team and family is the closing story for the aftermath arc from Jean's loss. Once Claremont started working on X-Factor, Marvel forced him to replace Dazzler with their Jean, whose resurrection and Phoenix being a separate entity rather than a force that possessed her.

With no other choice, Claremont had to accept Jean and made her the heroine of X-Factor. But editorial did not stop there, they wanted to kill off Madelyne in the worst way possible. Thus the story of Scott being a deadbeat husband and a deadbeat father happened. Moreover, they even turned her into a villain who is not only Jean's clone but also a deadbeat mother who is willing to sacrifice her son for more power (At least, it gave us Mister "Jean+Scott obsessed" Sinister and Alexander "Magic Mike" Summers).

Now the Psychic Affair between Scott and Emma. Rather than seeing the affair itself, it's better to check on everything that happened before it. Scott's story begun after he got separated from Apocalypse, but with a scarred mind. Around this time, Emma has to deal with the massacre at Genosha with her having to deal with survivor's guilt. Jean, who is not ready for a leadership role, got herself placed as the headmaster, and her increasing powers thanks to her newfound mastery over the Phoenix Force and Scott's own issues lead to a failing marriage.

All of these events culminated into a situation where Scott chooses to attend therapy sessions with Emma, who herself is finding a form of comfort in her rival's husband. With all these going on, one situation changed everything for them. The riot at Xavier's led by a rebel student named Quentin, resulting in Emma losing a daughter.

Scott who already understands this pain decided to comfort his new friend, who wants to escape her sadness by any means necessary. Thus she entered insider Scott's mind, instigating the affair. One another thing to note about this situation is that another one of Emma's daughters is mad with Emma doing nothing like she used to. Thus, she informs her headmistress which results in them being caught.

All in all, the affair was the perfect turning point in Scott's character. Many of us know that his love for Jean is holding him to the X-Men and her powers and personality somehow holding him back from pushing himself forward. However, the affair splits them up.

One thing I like to say about Scott's story is that while it's happening, people won't like where it goes, but once it's done, everyone will inevitably accept that everything falls perfectly, in his journey as a character and as a person. And that is why Cyclops is Right (I mean the best).

I don’t hate Cyclops. I just think he’s boring af

I've been reading the Cyke haters' arguments, and it's fun because now Xavier himself and all the mutantkind are doing exactly what he did, and more. So, are those same haters now hating Krakoa and the Krakoans as well?

Reading some posts here: I think emma should learn that esme(i mostly blame esme cause she was controlling the other cuckoos at the time) told jean about scott'/emma's affair.............LOL it would be fun drama