Buckwheat

Got to give this to Hunt. There are moments that his feats are nearly superhuman, seen how he takes down multiple opponents in seconds in H2H combat.

At the beginning of Rough Nation you can see him climb a post whilst doing the plank. An exercise that requires incredible strength. And above all, he also seems to be a master tactician, been able to anticipate his enemy’s reactions. The combination of smarts, training and physical stats make him a lethal adversary, whereas Brian is more of a street fighter.

I’d say Ethan for the win. Toreto would be a more interesting fight, specially after Furious 7, where he pulls out feats that are absolutely absurd.

It comes with the basic definition of both characters:

Batman is a man that has achieved peak human abilities trough practice.

Cap is a man that has been enhanced by a formula that takes him above what any human could reach through training. Not superhuman, but Peak on EVERY aspect.

Like I mentioned on my previous post, once a man reaches the highest strength level possible for a human, he inevitably looses a.) speed, b.) endurance, due to the muscle mass build, its weigh, and the amount of oxygen the muscles consume.

Take Bruce Lee, per example. He would not be as fast with his martial arts moves if he had the physique of Mariusz Pudzianowski. Or Usain Bolt, he would not run as fast as he runs if he had the physique of Bruce Lee.

So although Batman has achieved peak human abilities thanks to his training, he is still restricted by human limitations. If he gets to buff, he will tire faster, so he must keep an inevitable balance through training. Unlike Cap. that, thanks to the Super Soldier formula, can be as strong as the strongest human without loosing the agility of the fastest.

On top of this fact Steve's musculature produces less fatigue toxins during physical activity, so Cap has far superior endurance than Bruce.

So I don’t fully grasp why you need to rely solely on feats that are hard to measure. I mean, how much does that debris Cap is lifting weighs? How much reps did each benchpressed on the panels where they lift x and x tons? How fast are they when they evade gunfire? In the end those are all feats that show they are both strong and fast, but to deny the fact that on their essential descriptions Bruce is a human and Cap is an Enhanced Human is, on my opinion, one-sided.

@whoisthebest: For this debate to work we must admit several facts:

1.)

Bruce is as fast, strong and durable as any human could possibly become (I use “durable” as in the time it takes to tire out, not on how much damage one can take). Steve is as strong as the strongest human. As fast as the fastest human. An has much more endurance than any human could ever attain.

What I mean by this is, once a man reaches the highest strength level possible for a human, he inevitably looses a.) speed, b.) endurance, due to the muscle mass build, its weigh, and the amount of oxygen the muscles consume.

Take Bruce Lee, per example. He would not be as fast with his martial arts moves if he had the physique of Mariusz Pudzianowski. Or Usain Bolt, he would not run as fast as he runs if he had the physique of Bruce Lee.

So although Batman has achieved peak human abilities thanks to his training, he is still restricted by human limitations. If he gets to buff, he will tire faster, so he must keep an inevitable balance through training. Unlike Cap. that, thanks to the Super Soldier formula, can be as strong as the strongest human without loosing the agility of the fastest.

Which takes us to the conclusion that Steve is physically superior to Bruce due to the serum. They are not equal.

Which, in turn, means that: If Bats and Cap throw the SAME punch, Steve’s will hit harder, since the combination of strength/speed will benefit the later.

Which inevitably takes me to the next epilogue:

No matter what martial art you practice or how many styles you master, in the end what you need to fight an opponent is a) hit him, b) evade his hits, c) subdue him (though techniques like Judo or Jui-jitsu) d) escape his subduing techniques.

I mean, you can master 100 different styles, but a punch will always be a punch. Sure you can punch in different ways, but Full Contact Karate, Mui-Thai, and even UFC masters punch in similar ways.

There are MANY forms of Kung-Fu that will take years to master, that no Kung-Fu master would use on combat. Once engaged in combat a Kung-Fu master will mainly punch and kick, leaving the more elaborate acrobatic techniques for demonstrations and practice. Sure the acrobatic techniques of Kung-Fu would serve to grant the master more control over his body, strength and speed, but you don’t see elaborate acrobatic routines inside a UFC cage match. Why? Because you don’t need them.

So, the many art forms that Bruce practices help him attain his peak condition. Make him faster and stronger. Which we already concluded Steve is superior at.

2.)

Endurance is vital in any martial art. It is one of the things that ALL fighters work to attain, since once you tire out your hits become a) weaker, b) slower.

If you go to see a Boxing champion’s training, you will note how much time they spend building stamina and endurance. And if you ever tried to wrestle some one to the ground, you will see how incredibly exhausting that is.

Which once more takes us to the inevitable conclusion that Cap has a great advantage on Bats on a unarmed h2h combat.

In fact, most martial arts consist on making the fighter physically superior (faster, stronger, more accurate and that tires less), which Steve already is. No matter how much Bruce trains, no matter how many martial arts he masters, he will never be faster, stronger or have more endurance than a man that is physically enhanced by an artificial formula.

3.)

Conclusion.

This match favors Steve so much as to call it Spite, for 1, it takes away the technical advantage that Bruce could have limiting the fight to wrestling (no nerve strikes or other PIS techniques). 2, It takes away the weapon advantage Bruce could have by eliminating arms. 3, it takes away the possible environmental advantages by making the fight take place inside a dojo.

Not to put you down Whoisthebest, but I can’t even imagine how anyone with the least knowledge of both character could possible argue against Cap on this particular set up.

It is without any doubt a curb stomp on Steve’s favor.

Thanks for reading

@stryzzar: Sorry, I'm pretty new here and still not very familiar with the youknowhow's. I confess I was a bit to eager of getting some healthy debate and you seemed like a good candidate, hence my quote. Will keep your advice in mind.

I find that the power that it's been attributed to the Flash on this debate contradicts many of his usual showings. I mean a person so powerful would annihilate any villain before the battle even started. Why doesn’t he Speed Steal Darkseid, or throw a million IMPs at Mogul’s face? Why doesn’t he take Doomsday to the end of time? Why do they even bother to fight regular villains when Flash could end it all before it began?

I think that writers are just showing absolute ignorance by throwing around stuff like: “flash is a thousand times faster than light”. Are they even aware of what that means? I’m not going to go into the physical impossibilities of that, for Light IS the fastest thing in existence, and nothing faster can exist. But accepting the fact that he is that fast thanks to the Speed Force. Think of this: A guy faster than light would scape time, which means, the rest of the world would be standing still from his perspective.

Can you really imagine been hit by something that’s standing completely still?

Just take a look at your side. Do you see that bottle of beer sitting on your table next to your computer? It’s like, howmuch, a few inches from you? Do you honestly think it will EVER hit you? Well, a bullet would be like that to the Flash. A perfect marksman with a gun would be like a solid statue to the Flash.

I mean, a guy that can react on Femtoseconds, would NEVER be caught off-guard. Can any of you conceive what NEVER implies? Never is like, all eternity.

And then I go and see that he ordinarily struggles against other villains. He fights, punches people, and coexists in battle with people that would be like stones-on-the-ground to him, on a daily basis…

Facts that can only exist under one of the TWO following alternatives:

Alternative A.) The Flash is not as fast as they make him to be, and those showings where he carries a whole city to safety are just embellished fairytales to make the character look cool. Showings that are not meant to be taken seriously. Or in other words PIS. He really is not that fast.

In which case Superman would beat the Flash.

Alternative B.) The Flash is as fast as they say he is, but he also is a complete moron with no ability whatsoever for battle. A useless idiot that would rather run around slowly than help his fellow Leaguers when they face life-and-death situations.

In which case Superman would beat the Flash.

And for those of you that say: “It’s for the sake of the story. No one wants to read a comic that ends on the first panel.”

I answer: That is not a good enough excuse. If I make Spiderman able to climb walls, I will not make him not climb on walls because, well… It would be to easy for him to get to the roof.

We, as audience, can suspend our disbelieve, as long as it follows a logic. Per example:

I can believe a extraterrestrial from another planet, that physically resembles a man, can fly and have extraordinary powers. Even though impossible, it stands to a logic.

But I cannot believe that that Aunt May one day out of the blue starts flying and lifting 1000 tons, unless I am given a really good explanation.

Which means: Suspension of disbelieve works within certain boundaries. We, as audiences, will believe the impossible if it follows logic.

It does not have to be possible, but it must be coherently thought and exposed.

The Flash been faster than light and coexisting in battle with people that think and react at superhuman speeds is impossible and unbelievable, even for comic fiction.

So, what will it be? Is he not that fast? Or is he really such an idiot that he gets surprised by a “vibrating bullet” that travels and vibrates so many times slower than the speed of light that looks to the Flash like a static object hung on mid air?

It’s a fact that the greater the starting distance the more the fight will favor Summers, since most of Bruce’s ranged attacks would become less effective whereas Cyclops’ effectiveness would increase.

And, been realistic, at close quarters it would become harder for any normal human, peak or not, to avoid Cyclops’ optic blast. So it is safe to affirm that the moment Cyclops sees Batman the balance leans towards Scott.

Sure, Bruce could rely on stealth. But considering that both contestants start aware of the other and on plain sight, it would be very unlikely that Bats can defeat Scott without been seen.

Like in poker it’s all a mater of probabilities. And Cyclops has more chances of one-shooting the bat than the other way around.

Long story short. Scott wins.

Sure, if this happens in a comic Batman will win, due to how his character is written to be. And I can see how other fellow viners can mistake what Batman does in his stories with what his feats and abilities allow him to do. Let me clarify: Batman’s stories are written following the famous “guy-against-all-odds-does-the-impossible-and-wins-when-he-had-a-one-in-a-million-chances-of-winning”. This is something that often happens in movies. A comonly used narrative resource that works very well for storytelling. Just like there are narrative resources for other kind of stories, per example romantic comedies: “guy-meets-girl” type of stories, if you may. Each type of story has its you-know-hows. And the Batman stories are among the “That time when that guy did what no one thought he could do.”

What does that mean? It means that Batman, in his comics, will accomplish things that would be nearly impossible for him to accomplish. That’s how the character is writen. That’s what his stories are all about. But take into account what I am saying:

—Guy that does what would be NEAR IMPOSSIBLE for him to do—. What does that mean? He does it. Yes. But odds are he wouldn’t have been able to do it.

Since Comic Vine battles state that the fight takes place 10 times, and the character to take the mayority wins, in this particular scenario Bats would not be ablo to accomplish that one-in-a-million feat. For, as I said at the beginning of this post: it’s all a matter of probability. And probability says: Cyclops has a better chance winning.

He can tag Bruce He can destroy the floor under his feet, creating a hole larger than what Bats can jump and deeper than he could survive falling into. He can destroy whatever object Bats hides behind and flat out any area Bats would want to use for cover. He can shoot objects in midair. He can make buildings fall on his oponent, or make the cealing fall, or push objects, bounce his beam, make the beam go through objects (pierced a coin in midair once). He can make his beam to wide for Bats to evade…

Sure in a comic the bat would win. But in a battle set under the Vine’s rules: Cyclops takes the majority.

Thanks for reading

@stryzzar: OP does not state Deadpool heaving the HF negating blade, and it is not standar equipment.

On a fight between Deadpool and Wolverine we can consider that their stats are similar, with a slight edge on strength, agility, HF and range attacks going to Deadpool, and a huge difference on endurance that goes to Wolverine.

Keeping that in mind and heaving both contestants in character, which means it will come down to a H2H battle with swords guns and the such against adamantium claws, the winner by a large majority would be always be the same.

Lets do a simulacrum fight for those of you less imaginative:

Round 1.)

Deadpool shoots Wolverine three times. First shot is blocked by Logan’s claws, the second hits him on the arm and the third hits him on the head. Taking advantage of this last blow Wade hits Wolvie twice with his katanas. Frist swipe lands on the side of his body/shoulder and the second goes across Logan’s body.

Diagnosis: Puncture wound on arm. Scalp and skin on the side of the head blown off. Bone-dip cut on one arm. Superficial cut on the torso.

Damage: Low

Time for recovery: A couple minutes

Capacity to continue battle while wounded: High

Round 2.)

As Wade is near Wolverine from his last sword strike, Logan hits him with his claws. Both arms at sime time. Deadpool bloks one with his katana and tanks the other that hits him across the chest.

Diagnosis: First blow cuts through the katana and slices Wade’s arm off at the middle of the upper-arm amputating it clean. Second swipe cuts through ribs and sternum slicing major organs: Heart. Lungs.

Damage: High

Time to recover: Regrow arm (depending on writer, lets say 30 minutes since the fight wont last that long) Heart and lungs: 10 minutes

Capacity to continue battle while wounded: Low, due to incapacity to breath and heart failure. But for the battle’s sake I’ll say Medium. I’m been generous.

Round 3.)

Deadpool thrusts his sword on Wolverine’s body and throws a couple grenades to gain time to regroup and recover.

Diagnosis: Superficial burns and contusions from the explosions (no internal organs damaged due to invulnerable ribcage). Intestines lacerated by punctured wound.

Damage: Medium/Low

Time recover: A few minutes

Capacity to continue battle while wounded: High

Collateral damage: Due to lacerated ribs, sternum, and major organs collapsing Deadpool does not travel far enough to totally evade the explosion.

Diagnosis: Superficial burns. Broken bones (leg, arm, and cranial fracture)

Round 4.)

Coming out of the fire of the explosion Wolverine jumps Deadpool slicing him multiple times, Deadpool due to broken bones, missing arm and lacerated vital organs cannot properly evade the claws.

For the sake of this argument lets say James hits Wilson four times. One across the face, one across the shoulder/arm and two across the body.

Diagnosis: Head cleanly split open. Torso, ribs, sternum, thoracic vertebrae and all Major Organs sliced in several pieces. Amputated arm.

Damage. High

Time to recover: To regrow head, depending on writer, I will say 15 minutes, to be competitive. Again I’m been very generous.

Capacity to continue battle while wounded: Clinically Dead. Not capable of continuing battle.

Round 5.)

At this point Wolverine can just sit next to Wade’s body and cut his head open every time it begins to heal. Or he can slice the corpse into small pieces, from which it would take hours to heal. Or he can burn the remains… Anyhow, even though Deadpool cannot die, he can be kept on a clinical-dead-state for as long as Wolvie would like to bother.

And yes, the fight does not have to go as I described. This was just an example so you would be able to visualize how each opponent’s hits would affect the other.

Wolverine’s adamantium skeleton makes him far more durable than Deadpool, up to a point that even if Logan has a lesser HF (which can be easily debated) he would recover faster of the ordinary wounds that would result of a battle among those two.

Also, each of Wolverine’s hits would seriously injure Wade, since he would cut through his bones like if there was nothing there. A superficial cut in Logan’s arm would be an amputated arm for Deadpool, and so on so forth…

If you think of this fight thoroughly, there can only be one outcome.

Wolverine for the big majority.

PS

And even if Deadpool was to have the HF negating blade, most of Logan’s wounds would still be superficial, whereas Wolverine could very easily cripple or incapacitate Wade by cutting his spine, head or slicing his vital organs, as easy as one can slice through thin air.

On a fight between Deadpool and Wolverine we can consider that their stats are similar, with a slight edge on strength, agility, HF and range attacks going to Deadpool, and a huge difference on endurance that goes to Wolverine.

Keeping that in mind and heaving both contestants in character, which means it will come down to a H2H battle with swords guns and the such against adamantium claws, the winner by a large majority would be always be the same.

Lets do a simulacrum fight for those of you less imaginative:

Round 1.)

Deadpool shoots Wolverine three times. First shot is blocked by Logan’s claws, the second hits him on the arm and the third hits him on the head. Taking advantage of this last blow Wade hits Wolvie twice with his katanas. Frist swipe lands on the side of his body/shoulder and the second goes across Logan’s body.

Diagnosis: Puncture wound on arm. Scalp and skin on the side of the head blown off. Bone-dip cut on one arm. Superficial cut on the torso.

Damage: Low

Time for recovery: A couple minutes

Capacity to continue battle while wounded: High

Round 2.)

As Wade is near Wolverine from his last sword strike, Logan hits him with his claws. Both arms at sime time. Deadpool bloks one with his katana and tanks the other that hits him across the chest.

Diagnosis: First blow cuts through the katana and slices Wade’s arm off at the middle of the upper-arm amputating it clean. Second swipe cuts through ribs and sternum slicing major organs: Heart. Lungs.

Damage: High

Time to recover: Regrow arm (depending on writer, lets say 30 minutes since the fight wont last that long) Heart and lungs: 10 minutes

Capacity to continue battle while wounded: Low, due to incapacity to breath and heart failure. But for the battle’s sake I’ll say Medium. I’m been generous.

Round 3.)

Deadpool thrusts his sword on Wolverine’s body and throws a couple grenades to gain time to regroup and recover.

Diagnosis: Superficial burns and contusions from the explosions (no internal organs damaged due to invulnerable ribcage). Intestines lacerated by punctured wound.

Damage: Medium/Low

Time recover: A few minutes

Capacity to continue battle while wounded: High

Collateral damage: Due to lacerated ribs, sternum, and major organs collapsing Deadpool does not travel far enough to totally evade the explosion.

Diagnosis: Superficial burns. Broken bones (leg, arm, and cranial fracture)

Round 4.)

Coming out of the fire of the explosion Wolverine jumps Deadpool slicing him multiple times, Deadpool due to broken bones, missing arm and lacerated vital organs cannot properly evade the claws.

For the sake of this argument lets say James hits Wilson four times. One across the face, one across the shoulder/arm and two across the body.

Diagnosis: Head cleanly split open. Torso, ribs, sternum, thoracic vertebrae and all Major Organs sliced in several pieces. Amputated arm.

Damage. High

Time to recover: To regrow head, depending on writer, I will say 15 minutes, to be competitive. Again I’m been very generous.

Capacity to continue battle while wounded: Clinically Dead. Not capable of continuing battle.

Round 5.)

At this point Wolverine can just sit next to Wade’s body and cut his head open every time it begins to heal. Or he can slice the corpse into small pieces, from which it would take hours to heal. Or he can burn the remains… Anyhow, even though Deadpool cannot die, he can be kept on a clinical-dead-state for as long as Wolvie would like to bother.

And yes, the fight does not have to go as I described. This was just an example so you would be able to visualize how each opponent’s hits would affect the other.

Wolverine’s adamantium skeleton makes him far more durable than Deadpool, up to a point that even if Logan has a lesser HF (which can be easily debated) he would recover faster of the ordinary wounds that would result of a battle among those two.

Also, each of Wolverine’s hits would seriously injure Wade, since he would cut through his bones like if there was nothing there. A superficial cut in Logan’s arm would be an amputated arm for Deadpool, and so on so forth…

If you think of this fight thoroughly, there can only be one outcome.

Wolverine for the big majority.

@cf12793: Sorry to bump an old thread, but I thought I should add my two cents. For those of you that argue against Nightcrawler here are a few scans than show he is well capable of giving Bats a run for his money:

Here Nightcrawler is fast AND strong enough to hit Sabertooth in the face and then evade his punch and teleport his hand off. (Plese note that Victor possesses superhuman strength, stamina and agility)

Here Kurt hits Sabertooth multiple times. You can tell by the look on his face those are hard blows, even for a guy with incredible resitance and HF. (Don't see Victor predicting a pattern there either. In fact he doesn't even get a chance to hit back)

Kurt the teleports and drops on Creed: a car, a food cart, a delivery van and a caterpillar excavator (that's a lot of tons of steel), and he does it so incredibly fast that Sabertooth has bearly time to make a run for it. Notice that a machine drops nearly on every step Victor takes, and we are talking of a mutant with super-enhaced agility, far above any peak human.

Here you can see NC stab Sabertooth about 15 to 20 times with Creed not landing one single hit. An impressive feat considering Victor's reaction time... Too fast for a superhuman to evade, let alone predict.

So, yea... Its very possible that Kurt can take the Batman on a scenario such as the one the OP states, since the location is very similar to the one where this battle takes place. And even though Bruce is a better tactician and all around smarter than Creed, battlewise Sabertooth is faster, stronger, has mor resistance, speed and agility.

I say Nightcrawler for the majority.

(Oh, and forgive my grammar, English is me second lenguage)