My take on her saying he’s “at peace” is in reference to the idea of facing Vader. He’s made peace with the idea of facing him, but is still weighed down by traumas. Hence why he’s having PTSD flashbacks when he’s buried in the hole. He’s “back at his full powers again”, but unable to access all that due to mental blocks. Hence why he can’t even force push a bunch of rocks. When he lets go of that, he has a “resurgence“ and his connection to the force is described as “re-kindled”, “restored”, “renewed vigor”, “he turns his full power”, etc. The mental blocks that he’s experiencing before the hole are further explored in From A Certain Point of View: Return of The Jedi, in which it is said that Obi Wan pre hole had never felt as old (depressed) as he did. And that he felt even more depressed than after the Mustafar fight, in which he thought he had killed Anakin.
Deb’s other statements all follow this route ~ that Obi Wan in the finale is not fighting for the right reasons until he gets out of the hole. Then it’s ”not about the physical prowess, but the mental“.
@frozen: We have WOG confirmation from the director of the show that Obi-Wan was back at his full powers. She was very clear and straightforward about this. You would not describe someone as “at their full powers” if they aren’t even able to access said powers, that doesn’t make any sense. Vader even mentions that his strength has returned. If Vader noticed it then clearly Obi is able to access it.
@frozen: We have WOG confirmation from the director of the show that Obi-Wan was back at his full powers. She was very clear and straightforward about this. You would not describe someone as “at their full powers” if they aren’t even able to access said powers, that doesn’t make any sense. Vader even mentions that his strength has returned. If Vader noticed it then clearly Obi is able to access it.
Deb has also never stated or commented on the idea of Zenobi being amped beyond pre hole. Neither has any other source. In fact, Deb very much emphasises that the physical prowess is not important in Obi getting the upper hand:
“where it changes is when you get into the character, that it's not so much the physical prowess."
Obi Wan after the hole isn’t even physically stronger than he was pre hole. He’s driven back by Vader after force pelting him with rocks, and then it is implied by Deb that they’ve been fighting for a while:
“It is not a normal fight. Nobody can win, nobody can die."
There’s another quote by the choreographer who says that Deb was behind the vision that he’s a bit rusty. Also, I don’t see how you could think Obi Wan is completely at peace. It’s clearly emphasised that he’s having PTSD flashback when he’s buried in the hole, timestamp 4:40
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The soundtrack for the moment he escapes the hole and fights post hole is titled “overcoming the past”:
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Just seems to be Obi Wan fighting for the right reasons and with clarity/focus. Essentially what Filoni describes for Obi post Adi Gilla’s death. This is consistent with the quotes saying that he’s “fighting with renewed vigour“, “he turns his full power”, “rekindled“, etc. Also aligns with Deb saying physical prowess is not important and the fact that even after the hole, he’s driven back. The force pelting rocks moment is overrated. It didn’t slow him down that much.
Deb has also never stated or commented on the idea of Zenobi being amped beyond pre hole. Neither has any other source. In fact, Deb very much emphasises that the physical prowess is not important in Obi getting the upper hand:
Never said anything about Obi being amped or not in this thread. Right now I’m talking specifically about pre hole Kenobi. And the director has made it very clear that he is back at his full powers.
Well in that case, I don’t think it was ever in doubt that his power had returned. This quote is quite old and circulated. But the idea that he’s completely at peace is just rejected by the episode itself, when he’s having PTSD in the hole. Further backed up by databank, novel, soundtrack, VFX, etc. Deb says he‘s “at peace“ but only contextualises it to him facing Vader. If he was completely at peace, we wouldn’t get the PTSD scene.
Pre hole Kenobi vs Zenobi just strikes me as an Invisible Hand Kenobi vs Mustafar Kenobi dicthomy. IH Kenobi has yet to let go of his fear, whereas MFK ”fights to the fullest of his abilities“ and has “let go of his fear” on Utapa. Except in this case, pre hole Kenobi is a lot more mentally blocked than IH Kenobi.
@frozen: well I’ve seen some people argue that pre hole Kenobi<prime ROTS Kenobi.
I agree there does seem to be some contradictions on his mental state though. Your interpretation could be a way to reconcile that.
But regardless whether or not post hole Kenobi was amped (we can wait and see what the guide book has to say), he was definitely >pre hole Kenobi. So in that case post hole “Zenobi”>pre hole Kenobi=prime ROTS Kenobi.
Well, Deb does think that Kenobi’s duelling is rusty and slightly worse than ROTS Obi Wan. Pre hole Kenobi is feeling incredibly depressed and has ptsd etc, so his mental state isn’t the best. I don’t see why that would version would be directly = to Mustafar Obi. Even if you argue they’re the same in power/strength, Mustafar version is “fighting to the fullest of his abilities“ per several sources and peak mindset. I would imagine this Kenobi to be better than the one who has the same power but is rusty and mentally depressed.
I lean towards Mustafar Kenobi = Zenobi > pre hole Obi Wan = Invisible Hand Obi Wan.
@frozen: It was Ewan not Deborah who said that, and he was talking about the choreography and Obi-Wan’s style, not necessarily Obi-Wan’s actual ability as a swordsman. If he was sub Mustafar Obi-Wan then he would not be back “at his full powers again”.
@frozen: and no, I don’t think “full powers” only applies to his force power. Because Vader only commented that his strength had returned after a strict lightsaber duel—Obi hadn’t used any force abilities at that point. The description on this Topps card aligns with this, saying that it’s clear his strength has returned, after only describing their lightsaber strikes and being shot for shot:
@frozen: It was Ewan not Deborah who said that, and he was talking about the choreography and Obi-Wan’s style, not necessarily Obi-Wan’s actual ability as a swordsman. If he was sub Mustafar Obi-Wan then he would not be back “at his full powers again”.
The choreographer has elsewhere said the same thing, and that Deb was on board with the idea and very much behind it.
”The hard part for us is the bridge, how do they fight like this in Revenge of The Sith and they end up like this in A New Hope. So I have the inbetween. So I can’t make them, um when we’re doing the stuff, and this is a credit to our director Deborah Chow too she’s very in tune with that stuff.”
Ewan’s statement talks about rustiness and age, and that it’s not a throwaway statement. He’s saying that he worked closely with the choreographer (who was instructed by Chow) to take Obi’s style into a place where it’s a bit older and rusty. “Not quite“ the ROTS Obi but not that far off It either. His power can be returned, but that doesn’t mean he‘s exactly the duelist he once was.
I never said he is “sub“ Mustafar Obi solely because of that either. Otherwise I wouldn’t put Zenobi as = Mustafar Obi Wan. The mental hindrance that pre hole Obi Wan has is logically why he would be below Mustafar Obi Wan. Pre hole Obi Wan is very much directly stated to be in worse mental condition than Mustafar Obi Wan. Given that we have a bunch of sources saying and showing that he’s mentally weighed down. From A Certain Point of View: Return of The Jedi book for example, outright says that pre hole Kenobi felt worse mentally than he did after the Mustafar fight.
and no, I don’t think “full powers” only applies to his force power. Because Vader only commented that his strength had returned after a strict lightsaber duel—Obi hadn’t used any force abilities at that point.
?
He says it after Obi Wan tries to grab the pillar with the force:
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The description on this Topps card aligns with this, saying that it’s clear his strength has returned, after only describing the strict lightsaber duel:
The Toops card also says that Obi Wan after the hole is “at full strength“:
The figurine descriptions also say he’s just “re-connecting“ himself to the force and letting go of emotional pain. They also say he’s drained and just fighting through it.
“The old knight, although hurt, duels with his Lightsaber, motivated by the memories of the young twins Luke and Leia, whom he sworn to protect, he then overcomes the pain, reconnecting himself with the Force”
”A drained but still determined Obi Wan Kenobi, that while focusing on the memories of Luke and Leia, motivated to protect them, manages to strike“
@frozen: and no, I don’t think “full powers” only applies to his force power. Because Vader only commented that his strength had returned after a strict lightsaber duel—Obi hadn’t used any force abilities at that point. The description on this Topps card aligns with this, saying that it’s clear his strength has returned, after only describing their lightsaber strikes and being shot for shot:
”It is clear that his strength has returned“ after a strict lightsaber duel—no force abilities had been used at this point. This means that Obi-Wan’s overall dueling ability—despite any supposed rustiness—is back at his peak ROTS level. So even if he was a little rusty, that would just mean that his augmentation made up for it.
He says it after Obi Wan tries to grab the pillar with the force:
According to Topps it was clear his strength had returned before that, after only describing the start of the duel, before Obi-Wan attempts to drop the pillar on Vader.
”It is clear that his strength has returned“ after a strict lightsaber duel—no force abilities had been used at this point. So like I said above, this means that Obi-Wan’s overall dueling ability—despite any supposed rustiness—is back at his peak ROTS level. So even if he was a little rusty, that would just mean that his augmentation made up for it.
The Toops card also says that Obi Wan after the hole is “at full strength“:
That card also says that he “pulled strength from Anakin’s children”, after already being described as having his “strength returned” and “at his full powers again”. This means that either A) he was at full power before, lost that power in the hole, and then gained it back, or B) he was at his previous full power, then pulled more strength from the twins and grew to a new level of power that is now his new “full strength”.
If there was a “new“ full strength, then it would say that. Or at least indicate it in some way, e.g. “Obi Wan is stronger than ever”. This is just saying that he’s “at full strength“. Your option A sounds more feasible and consistent with other sources than B. Him “pulling strength“ from the twins is stated in the figurine too. And it is said to not bring him a new strength, but rather that he “reconnects to the force”, which in turn helps him overcome his emotional pain so that he can fight through being drained.
“The old knight, although hurt, duels with his Lightsaber, motivated by the memories of the young twins Luke and Leia, whom he sworn to protect, he then overcomes the pain, reconnecting himself with the Force”
”A drained but still determined Obi Wan Kenobi, that while focusing on the memories of Luke and Leia, motivated to protect them, manages to strike“
I don’t think being augmentation alone is enough to mean he’s exactly the same Kenobi that fought on Anakin on Mustafar. Even if we were to go with the idea that his augmentation is equal, there is a lot more to duelling than just augmentation. Mindset is important, and almost every single source on OWK just emphasises that the pre hole iteration is mentally suffering from trauma/ptsd. It is interwoven into the story. The sheer fact that he’s stated to be more depressed than the Obi Wan shortly after the Mustafar fight is in and of itself enough to show he isn’t in the same peak mentality. You can quantify how much better the post hole Zenobi is by just seeing how different he fights with focus and with the right motivation.
On Mustafar, he is fighting to the fullest of his abilities:
He evidently isn’t doing this pre hole, because he’s stated many times to be very depressed and mentally blocked. The hole sequence seems no different to whats described below:
Also, as I posted earlier, the idea that he’s only feeling PTSD in the hole and not the fight itself is rejected by the recent From A Certain Point of View book. It frames his mental state before the hole as being the worst it’s ever been.
“On this day, he’d felt older than he ever had - older even than after their duel on Mustafar”
@frozen: You could say the same thing about him being back at his full strength, that it would also specify that by saying “Obi Wan’s Strength Returned”, like it literally just did on the previous card. But no, it says he “pulls strength” from the twins, after already having his strength returned, and is now at “full stength”. It’s just as likely, if not more likely, that B is an option. Especially with other statements like this from the sound editor:
You see Obi-Wan do some things that we’ve never seen before as far as his strengths are concerned. He’s picking up giant rocks and spitting them around and all that. So that’s just the dynamics of that mix and that balancing of that to feature those moments.
Sorry but I’m going to trust what the actual show and the people who made it have to say, and they say that pre hole Kenobi is at peace and at his full strength/powers, and that post hole Kenobi is stronger than ever, able to do things we’ve never seen him do before. Especially when it doesn’t even say anywhere that this “mental trauma/PTSD” had any actual effect on his power or abilities. Unlike with Vader, whose feelings were explicitly stated to have weakened him.
You could say the same thing about him being back at his full strength, that it would also specify that by saying “Obi Wan’s Strength Returned”, like it literally just did on the previous card. But no, it says he “pulls strength” from the twins, after already having his strength returned, and is now at “full stength”. It’s just as likely, if not more likely, that B is an option
The descriptions are basically just saying what‘s already said. “His strength returned“ vs is almost verbatim what Vader says: “your strength has returned“. This would align with Deb saying “he’s back at his full powers again”. Deb’s usage of the word “fully” is synonymous with the third card saying “Obi Wan at full strength“. Furthermore, the figurine descriptions I posted (which are equally as canon as these cards) outright reject the idea of any power amplification. As they refer to him as merely offsetting his injuries and using the twins to give him hyper clarity and focus. This is consistent with the other sources which refer to “renewed vigour” and “Obi Wan turns his full power” on Vader. If Obi Wan was not at full strength to begin with, then pre hole is not ~ Mustafar Kenobi.
Sorry but I’m going to trust what the actual show and the people who made it have to say, and they say that pre hole Kenobi is at peace and at his full strength/powers,
The person who made the show explicitly says that there is no amp. Given that she specifies that physical prowess has nothing to do with when the fight goes to Obi Wan’s favour. She instead frames it as just mental prowess as being why Obi Wan wins. If he were power amplified, then superior physical prowess is why he would win. As his force augmented stats would be amplified:
“where it changes is when you get into the character, that it's not so much the physical prowess."
The “where it changes“ is in direct references to the outcome of the fight.
and that post hole Kenobi is stronger than ever, able to do things we’ve never seen him do before.
They are just talking about the moment he lifts a bunch of rocks. This is what we’ve never seen him do before. There’s no actual power scale here. What they’re saying is he’s displaying something (lifting rocks and throwing them) that hasn’t been displayed before in LA. This doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of doing that in ROTS. It’s very basic to lift a bunch of rocks in canon. But LA never usually shows this.
Especially when it doesn’t even say anywhere that this “mental trauma/PTSD” had any actual effect on his power or abilities.
Per Deb, it directly does. As she pinpoints mental prowess as being what determines the outcome rather than physical.
@frozen: Your argument just doesn’t really make sense to me, because you say that his power doesn’t change post hole and that it was only a mental change, but then you say per Deb it directly affects his power.
@frozen: Your argument just doesn’t really make sense to me, because you say that his power doesn’t change post hole and that it was only a mental change, but then you say per Deb it directly affects his power.
Per Deb it affects his performance, meaning “abilities“. That does not mean his power is juiced up. Deb is saying that physical superiority is not why Obi wins, but that it is his mental shift. He fights with more focus and determination than before.
He doesn’t even win through force abuse, he just does what he did pre hole (prior to the TK pillar grab) but at a faster and more energised pace. It’s not much different to Obi Wan fighting post Adi Gallia death. If he were that much stronger post hole, then he wouldn’t be driven back after having pelted Vader with rocks.
@frozen: I see. But if it improves his abilities that would still scale post hole Zenobi above pre hole Kenobi overall, who is stated to be back at full powers. So post hole Zenobi>pre hole Kenobi=ROTS Kenobi
Where do you have Zenobi and OWK Vader overall (skill, power, abilities, etc) in relation to others like the ROTS titans? And do you have Zenobi>OWK Vader or do you think the outcome was circumstantial?
I think Zenobi>OWK Vader, and that it is not circumstantial.
As for where they scale to the titans, I’m not sure. I have to think about that. I’d probably go with KFV ~ ROTS Sidious=> Yoda > Zenobi>OWK Vader > Mace > Dooku.
For Vader scaling: ROTJ Vader/current comics force wave Vader >> post ESB trials Vader > ESB Vader > KFV > ANH/Rebels Vader = OWK Vader >> Lords of Sith Vader >>>> 19bby Vader.
I think Zenobi>OWK Vader, and that it is not circumstantial.
As for where they scale to the titans, I’m not sure. I have to think about that. I’d probably go with KFV ~ ROTS Sidious=> Yoda > Zenobi>OWK Vader > Mace > Dooku.
For Vader scaling: ROTJ Vader/current comics force wave Vader >> post ESB trials Vader > ESB Vader > KFV > ANH/Rebels Vader = OWK Vader >> Lords of Sith Vader >>>> 19bby Vader.
You have Sidious above OWK Vader but Mace below him and Obi-Wan?
I‘m currently reviewing Mace, because there are sources saying Sidious got a boost from killing Mace and then an additional boost post order 66. This would scale Mace to pre 66 Sid’s, but there may be a noticeable gap between pre 66 Sheev and post 66.
Well, Deb does think that Kenobi’s duelling is rusty and slightly worse than ROTS Obi Wan
Can I see the actual structure for that? Because she herself said the exact opposite, as you can see above, and yet this somehow persists. So I would really like to see source that is not an essay and A implies B, B implies C therefore Z kind of stuff, but actual quote of her even saying something such?
The choreographer said that Deb is the one behind the vision and instructing him.
”The hard part for us is the bridge, how do they fight like this in Revenge of The Sith and they end up like this in A New Hope. So I have the inbetween. So I can’t make them, um when we’re doing the stuff, and this is a credit to our director Deborah Chow too she’s very in tune with that stuff.
But um, y’know, I have to see how those guys fought in number 3 (Revenge of The Sith), because that’s like one of the most iconic fights ever in Star Wars right. Because you gotta see how they fight there because they won’t that much different when you get to the inbetween (Obi Wan Kenobi series). And then they have to fight completely different when they get old in A New Hope.
So I had to kind of like get that and mix that style with whatever I’m making and then make sure it kind of bridges into the original trilogy stuff”
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