VCT: Round 1: Killemall vs. beatboks1

Tournament Rules:

§ All parties involved in a debate must state they are ready for voting before votes are taken into consideration. Meaning anyone who votes prior to this point will be discounted.

§ Personal attack are prohibited. At any point, if you insult your fellow debater(s), and they feel personally insulted, I will ask you apologize for the jest. I'm not talking about joking around, or meaningless jabs at one another, I'm talking about over the line insulting and ridicule. If someone is offended, either apologize, or under the even someone really crosses a line, they will be flagged and kicked out of the tournament.

§ Feats must be backed up with scans, or at the very least sourced. For example, if you know something happened and what issue it's from, but don't have the scan, just source the issue. If you can find the scan, great. However, if you are just pulling information off a wiki, and can't find what issue it's actually from, then as far as I'm concerned it is irrelevant. Even sourcing the Story Arc would be fine.

§ Follow the character rules, battle rules, and the scenarios given.

§ As always, respect each other.

Now that that's out of the way.

Battlefield

The Ice Planet - Hoth

Battle Conditions:

1. Prep - No
2. Morals On
3. Bloodlust Off
4. BFR Disabled
5. Start 200 meters apart.
6. Standard Equipment

@Killemall

@beatboks1

Planetary

• Savage Hulk strength
• Speed limited to Wonder Woman level (below Superman)
• Savage Hulk durability
• Energy Blast maximum strength is powerful enough to wipe out a city
• No limitation on enhanced metals
• Moondragon / Martian Manhunter level telepathy is allowed

Perks:

"Hahaha! Now I take the numbers advantage!" - Pick a planetary level threat character to join your team.

"Don't worry, I'm packing!" - Characters get a single weapon or object outside of their standard equipment. This cannot be something more powerful than Thanos's energy rifle, and it has to be something a character has used before.

"Wait...How does this thing work again?" - Puts a random character on your opponents team in stasis for 2 minutes at the beginning of battle. Unfortunately, also puts a member of your team in stasis for 2 minutes at the beginning of battle....

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay said:

Planetary

• Savage Hulk strength
• Speed limited to Wonder Woman level (below Superman)
• Savage Hulk durability
• Energy Blast maximum strength is powerful enough to wipe out a city
• No limitation on enhanced metals
• Moondragon / Martian Manhunter level telepathy is allowed

Perks:

"Hahaha! Now I take the numbers advantage!" - Pick a planetary level threat character to join your team.

"Don't worry, I'm packing!" - Characters get a single weapon or object outside of their standard equipment. This cannot be something more powerful than Thanos's energy rifle, and it has to be something a character has used before.

"Wait...How does this thing work again?" - Puts a random character on your opponents team in stasis for 2 minutes at the beginning of battle. Unfortunately, also puts a member of your team in stasis for 2 minutes at the beginning of battle....

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Lol at what has been underlined. Good observation on your part, otherwise Thanos would just use the Infinity Gauntlet, HOTU, Cosmic Cube or Omega to name a few hack instant wins.

Furthermore I assume you mean cosmic team-buster as opposed to planetary based on the line-up of the contestants.

Edit I just saw one of the perks. Now I understand.

@Floopay: O_o, why the rules nerfing character abilities? Its a battle of cosmic and cosmic team buster, why did we get the restriction of planetary powerhouse?

Also Beatboks1 do you wanna go up first or should i?

@Killemall: It for the perk "Hahaha! Now I take the numbers advantage!" - Pick a planetary level threat character to join your team.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@Killemall: It for the perk "Hahaha! Now I take the numbers advantage!" - Pick a planetary level threat character to join your team.

O_o, but no one has a number advantage? Never understood what happened.

Also now i am in trouble, my team essentially had physical advantage while Beatboks1 had versatility advantage, thats how the team was choosen and its pretty close, with nerfing its heavily on Beatboks1 favor.

@Killemall said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@Killemall: It for the perk "Hahaha! Now I take the numbers advantage!" - Pick a planetary level threat character to join your team.

O_o, but no one has a number advantage? Never understood what happened.

Also now i am in trouble, my team essentially had physical advantage while Beatboks1 had versatility advantage, thats how the team was choosen and its pretty close, with nerfing its heavily on Beatboks1 favor.

It's to take the numbers advantage with an added character. Also not nerfing if you choose "Hahaha! Now I take the numbers advantage!"perk you are limited to those character stipulations.

Hope that helps.

@Floopay: I don't understand this :

Killemall : 2 Cosmic-teambuster. + 1 cosmic

Beatboks1 : 3 cosmic-teambuster

?how is this fair?

So much confusion in the comments, head is about to explode.

@GodDamnIronMan said:

@Floopay: I don't understand this :

Killemall : 2 Cosmic-teambuster. + 1 cosmic

Beatboks1 : 3 cosmic-teambuster

?how is this fair?

They both set up their team battle conditions. I assume they agreed at some point, somewhere it's fair.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

They both set up their team battle conditions. I assume they agreed at some point, somewhere it's fair.

Yes we did, also the wording is rather incorrect. Ray and Alan Scott, with morals are mere cosmic level as opposed to cosmic team buster and one reason we agreed was despite huge hype in power level Monarch, one of my cosmic team buster has limited feats.

@Killemall said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

They both set up their team battle conditions. I assume they agreed at some point, somewhere it's fair.

Yes we did, also the wording is rather incorrect. Ray and Alan Scott, with morals are mere cosmic level as opposed to cosmic team buster and one reason we agreed was despite huge hype in power level Monarch, one of my cosmic team buster has limited feats.

But I wonder, why not shoot for Odin? He is Uber cosmic team buster.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

But I wonder, why not shoot for Odin? He is Uber cosmic team buster.

Way too powerful to have a reasonable debate, from Galaxy busting to reality manipulation, to time manipulation, to ability to absorb enough energy to destroy a universe without a problem who would readily want to debate against someone like that. I am normally more comfortable up to Thanos / Monarch (coz he is rather featless) level. And if i took Odin, i am sure Beatbok1 would have asked for 30th Century Mordru, in which case everyone else is essentially useless. Whoever wins between those two would well, spank the rest of the team. I think this is more balanced.

@Killemall: Well put.

@Killemall: Can I know when you 2 will start the debate?

@GodDamnIronMan: I am waiting for Beatboks1 to show up, perhaps by tomorrow.

@GodDamnIronMan said:

@Floopay: I don't understand this :

Killemall : 2 Cosmic-teambuster. + 1 cosmic

Beatboks1 : 3 cosmic-teambuster

?how is this fair?

The answer is that the Ray isn't a cosmic team buster. he would be at best cosmic ( he is certainly below SS level). Also Allen is SS level also.

I've chosen the weakest version of Dr Fate ( the one who lost to a Desaad pretender Darkseid - so easily ably to be contended with by Thanos)

The Ray Who only has the energy manipulation close to SS and none of his other abilities ( he has energy constructs t make up for some but not all)

and Allen Scot who since he's magic ( and of course so is Fate) wont affect a Monarch who was Captain Atom and immune to magic.

I'd say there are plenty of angles to be played here for a fair battle.

@Killemall: I'm just home after a 12 hr work day. trying to wrap my head around the set up. you go first if you want.

@beatboks1: Ok so i am going on with my a start.

Since i have the raw power advantage and you have versatility, i am going to try and make this one on one.

First thing i would get my team to do is, Thanos and Surfer to put up a energy dome, and while protected inside it, Surfer can give Thanos a small portion of his power cosmic. What this does it essentially let Thanos fly, coz he is a bada$$ powerhouse but cant fly.

Silver Surfer giving Hulk his powers ,(Hulk looks so shinny awww O_o)

Gallery

Here is another instance of Silver Surfer giving away half his powers, in our battle though i want him to give away like 1%, just to let Thanos fly

Gallery

As a bonus, a dying Silver Surfer gave a small portion of his power cosmic to Mary Jane Watson (NON CANON) during Silver Surfer: Requiem, just showing this to show he has consistently been shown to be able to give away people small portion of his powers.

Gallery

This shouldnt take more than few seconds so now i will have everyone of my team members who can fly.

Now we go one on one that way its easier.

Silver Surfer vs Ray

I have to admit i dont now a lot about Ray and did a few research after you gave me his link. So Ray is an energy manipulator of the highest order who can essentially turn into light form. So i though well the best weapon against a light based energy form is well black hole. I can get Silver Surfer to ram ray up in the sky and open a black hole.

AnnihilationSilver Surfer 01 : Surfer creating a Black Hole with little problem

Gallery

StormBreaker The Saga of Beta Ray Bill 04: This is NOT silver Surfer but rather Stardust, who opens a black hole. Given that they [ Silver Surfer and Stardust] have same powers and Silver Surfer of course is more powerful shows he can create black hole with no problems.

Gallery

You are the Ray expert so i will wait for your response on how Ray escapes this, because black hole should essential kill him. Else i can get surfer to maybe trap him on his board, disperse his atoms, absorb his essence or try and take him down with telepathy. But more on that later.

Monarch vs Doctor Fate.

The biggest advantage Monarch has is, his invulnerability and resistance to magic as he is essentially Earth 1 Captain Atom boosted to some ridiculous degree with the Monarch suit, so he wont be take out via magic as easily.

With that out of the way, any energy black that Doctor Fate can muster wont be enough to beat Monarch because he is too damn durable.

Countdown Arena 02 : Here is Monarch fighting 3 alternate reality GLs and making a mockery of them

Gallery

This of course isnt his best feat, he while limited with feats, and some pretty amazing display of his powers will post more when needed.

What i am trying to potray is Doctor Fate will have nothing in his arsenal to beat Monarch, and Doctor Fate is your biggest powerhouse. I am still not entire sure if he can tank a good blast from Monarch but will enforce on that point later, at the moment i am more inclined to see if Doctor Fate has anything to counter the scary durability that Monarch has.

Alan Scott vs Thanos

This is fairly simply, Alan Scott is outgunned. His constructs are not durable enough to handle. Had it been Alan Scott tapping into the power of Star Heart or being controlled by it like say JLA/JSA Dark Reign, Thanos would be screwed, but good for my beloved titan it isnt.

Thanos is stronger, more durable, has far more powerful energy blast, has powerful telepath (which might not be enough to beat Alan Scott outright byitself but sure as hell can weaken him so Thanos get a good blast and well kill him).

Will obviously address any concerned you might have in regards to Thanos, but at the moment just putting out his best feat in terms of energy projection.

Avengers Celestial Quest 08: Thanos fights and kills ROT a being born out of unision of Lady Death and Thanos, made out of pure dark energy, who was slowely eating away the universe, Avengers were going catatonic simply by coming too close to Rot's energy, and what does Thanos do? He kill rot with a mega power attack, an attack that made the entire universe scream.

Gallery

More specifically this scan

The say i see it, Alan Scott can either match it, nor survive this kind of blast.

So i think my team has a solid upper hand here.

Back to you ?

@Killemall said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

But I wonder, why not shoot for Odin? He is Uber cosmic team buster.

Way too powerful to have a reasonable debate, from Galaxy busting to reality manipulation, to time manipulation, to ability to absorb enough energy to destroy a universe without a problem who would readily want to debate against someone like that. I am normally more comfortable up to Thanos / Monarch (coz he is rather featless) level. And if i took Odin, i am sure Beatbok1 would have asked for 30th Century Mordru, in which case everyone else is essentially useless. Whoever wins between those two would well, spank the rest of the team. I think this is more balanced.

LOL hadn't seen that when I was first on. Your damn straight I would have wanted 30th Century Mordru to go up against Odin, also correct that no-one else on either team would have been of any consequence. WE might have to have that battle another day ;)

First thing i would get my team to do is, Thanos and Surfer to put up a energy dome, and while protected inside it, Surfer can give Thanos a small portion of his power cosmic. What this does it essentially let Thanos fly, coz he is a bada$$ powerhouse but cant fly.

As soon as my team sees any sign of such a dome ( whether it entraps them or not) they shrink to subatomic level and then port out of the confinement or the area of the dome.

I Only have scans of Classic fate shrinking, but it was one of his minor spells so it should be easily achievable by the Straus Fate.

I agree that the match up's you have planned would definitely give you the advantage. I can argue that Ray could create a light construct to keep himself out or be so small that his mass wouldn't be pulled into the BH. But instead

Alan and Fate realize the danger Monarch presents. At Allen's bequest Fate will cast a minor spell of deception so that all my opponents will see one of my team but it will actually be another. When SS goes to face the Ray it will in fact be Alan Scott. When Monarch takes on Dr Fate it will be The Ray. And when Thanos goes after Allen he will be facing Dr fate. Leaving the female Dr fate ( for whom the deception will make her seem insignificant) to aid whoever needs help first.

All versions of Fate ( except Inza and I'm not sure about Kent V- never been shown) have had enhanced physicals. Now as each of my opponents will likely be expecting their initial assault to give them the upper hand the element of surprise will turn to mine when they realize it isn't working.

Monarch would make short work of either of my mystics because of stated immunity to magic. However whe the assaults of the Ray actually do him harm he will be causght quite by surprise. When the seeming magical constructs of what he believes to be Dr fate ( actually the Ray's light constructs) are actually able to affect him he will be at a complete loss.

Gallery

With each of his protege' etc Nabu altered their from from a child or Infant into an adult and gave them super strength, flight, invulnerability, healing and made them not age and immune to mortal disease. Just like Kent Erik was aged from a boy and his body altered during the mini series that introduced him ( with an aging kent Nelson having used too much magic in too few years burning him out and a magical mouth of Nabu in his belly - I'll find the scans later). Erik Straus wasn't as physically enhanced as Kent Nelson ( who was Superman level ) but should still be able to at least take some punishment from Thanos.

That leaves Alan against Silver Surfer. This is possibly the closest match that any member of my team has. ( at least he and SS are on much more even pegging than the others, where I'm at a slight disadvantage in power). Much of what SS can Do Alan can too. What is going to turn this from a potential stalemate is the same thing that will turn certain losses in the other pairing to wins. The fact that the tactics being used by my adversaries will be in fact the tactics they require to defeat the others of my team

* edit - well if that's not a sign it's been too damn long a day. You know your tired when you miss spell the name of your favorite character almost 8 times in one post.

@beatboks1 said:

LOL hadn't seen that when I was first on. Your damn straight I would have wanted 30th Century Mordru to go up against Odin, also correct that no-one else on either team would have been of any consequence. WE might have to have that battle another day ;)

Fair enough we can try some day, that way i get to learn about Mordru.

@beatboks1 said:

As soon as my team sees any sign of such a dome ( whether it entraps them or not) they shrink to subatomic level and then port out of the confinement or the area of the dome.

Sure no problem shrinking sounds fun, but will that not affect your power level? Also Silver Surfer for one can still see you. Also that doesnt explain how you will be able to beat my team?

I agree that the match up's you have planned would definitely give you the advantage. I can argue that Ray could create a light construct to keep himself out or be so small that his mass wouldn't be pulled into the BH. But instead

Size will nto matter what black holes pulls and what it doesnt, after all Light itself is completely weightless and is made out of Photon and is still pulled by a black hole.

Alan and Fate realize the danger Monarch presents. At Allen's bequest Fate will cast a minor spell of deception so that all my opponents will see one of my team but it will actually be another. When SS goes to face the Ray it will in fact be Alan Scott. When Monarch takes on Dr Fate it will be The Ray. And when Thanos goes after Allen he will be facing Dr fate. Leaving the female Dr fate ( for whom the deception will make her seem insignificant) to aid whoever needs help first.

Its not as easy to deceive Silver Surfer via deception because of his cosmic awareness.

Fear Itself: The Deep 03: Tyrak the Terrible tried to sneak up on silver surfer by disusing as a innocent lady helping Surfer out, but good old surfer shall not be so easily fooled :p

Gallery

More specifically this panel

Given that Silver Surfer has telepathy, he can communicate with either of them that a switch has been made, or simply yell out loud, the deception is not going to work, not to mention that doesnt really give them a win anyhow.

Monarch would make short work of either of my mystics because of stated immunity to magic. However whe the assaults of the Ray actually do him harm he will be causght quite by surprise. When the seeming magical constructs of what he believes to be Dr fate ( actually the Ray's light constructs) are actually able to affect him he will be at a complete loss.

Gallery

Anything to suggest he can hurt Monarch? I get the impression you under-estimate Monarch. While he doesnt have a lot of feats he sure as hell has few awesome feats, lets jump right through to his best feat till date.

Countdown Arena 04: Monarch takes on an army of 3 Superman and 39 Captain Atoms from all around DC multiverse and beats them with ease.

Gallery

so is there a reason to believe Ray can do what this army of Superman level beings failed? Note he doesnt have to take Ray down, he just has to hand in there without getting KOed (because frankly apart from Ray i dont see anyone being able to actually take on Monarch here and survive.

With each of his protege' etc Nabu altered their from from a child or Infant into an adult and gave them super strength, flight, invulnerability, healing and made them not age and immune to mortal disease. Just like Kent Erik was aged from a boy and his body altered during the mini series that introduced him ( with an aging kent Nelson having used too much magic in too few years burning him out and a magical mouth of Nabu in his belly - I'll find the scans later). Erik Straus wasn't as physically enhanced as Kent Nelson ( who was Superman level ) but should still be able to at least take some punishment from Thanos.

So i would hope you could tell me more, but if Straus Fate is Superman level or perhaps a little above Thanos is going to outright kill him, despite his immunity to death. Also if you notice the scan i posted was of him killing Rot and being that Lady Death was seriously scared of, and the blast made the entire universe scream, i dont see how Superman level beings can take his blast. He has beaten Classic Drax rather handily, who himself was extremely durable and destroyed the planet in the process. Silver Surfer has similar durability, and Thanos nearly killed him. Thor has similar durability Thanos beat an entire Avengers / X-men team, with Thor included.

Fights Classic Drax The Destroyer, a planet is destroyed in process and Drax is soundly defeated. (Iron Man Volume 1, Issue 55)

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Beat The Avengers (Marvel Two In One, Annual 002)

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Beat Silver Surfer to near death, teleports him to death lair, fights a bunch of Death's lackeys, teleports back and let the Silver Surfer go away coz Thanos is a gentleman :p - Cosmic Power Unlimited 01

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So a superman level durability really really isnt helping Fate here.

That leaves Alan against Silver Surfer. This is possibly the closest match that any member of my team has. ( at least he and SS are on much more even pegging than the others, where I'm at a slight disadvantage in power). Much of what SS can Do Alan can too. What is going to turn this from a potential stalemate is the same thing that will turn certain losses in the other pairing to wins. The fact that the tactics being used by my adversaries will be in fact the tactics they require to defeat the others of my team

* edit - well if that's not a sign it's been too damn long a day. You know your tired when you miss spell the name of your favorite character almost 8 times in one post.

This i can agree. Silver Surfer with morals is going to struggle against Alan Scott. That being said, the moment they realise its not Ray but Alan Scott, they can always switch places. Silver Surfer might be outgunned against Alan Scott by not by much, Silver Surfer himself has planet busting attacks and has done so in the past, any attacks from Alan Scott can be absorbed by him and redirected in kind. Silver Surfer is faster in combat, when he has to be, so while i do not purpose Silver Surfer blitzing Alan Scott he can at the very least get more hits on Alan Scott than the other way around. I would normally favor Silver Surfer over Alan Scott in a one on one fight, but here i do NOT have to do. Silver Surfer is my opposite number for Ray he just has to be against Alan Scott before he realise Ray isnt there. From what it looks like, Fate isnt going to last too long against either Thanos or Monarch and either of them member can help defeat Alan Scott.

Worst comes to worst, two telepaths of the highest order Silver Surfer and Thanos, together can also try and use telepathy on Ray, is he immune to such tactics?

@Killemall said:

@Floopay: O_o, why the rules nerfing character abilities? Its a battle of cosmic and cosmic team buster, why did we get the restriction of planetary powerhouse?

Also Beatboks1 do you wanna go up first or should i?

What rule?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: Ok i am a little lost, why is the planetary stats mentioned in the OP. I though you were restricting character power level, or perhaps i misread the OP.

@Killemall : I think I can explain that, if you chose the number advantage perk, you would go by the planetary guidelines, a connivence so that you don't have to go back to the sign up thread to find them.

@Killemall:

Sure no problem shrinking sounds fun, but will that not affect your power level? Also Silver Surfer for one can still see you. Also that doesnt explain how you will be able to beat my team?

I don’t see how. It would if their powers were physical in nature but all the power of my team comes from “outside sources” Ray absorbs and emits/controls light. In the shrunken state in JLA after the scan I showed he still absorbed all the light in the dimension he was in as well as some from outside to sue it against a dimensional being

Size will nto matter what black holes pulls and what it doesnt, after all Light itself is completely weightless and is made out of Photon and is still pulled by a black hole.

Light isn’t completely weightless. It’s mass is such that it is almost insignificant but it still has a very (very) minute amount of mass. Gravity (and let’s face it that’s the force exerted between two bodies) doesn’t affect light as much when from a physical body like a planet. It takes something the size of the moon to have enough gravitational pull to hold something the size of man down. At some point you can get small enough to simply not have the mass to be affected by even gravity of a Black Whole enough that his speed wouldn’t allow him to exit. It’s a moot point anyway. The whole point of shrinking was to get small enough to get through the barrier and therefore avoid getting put into a black whole.

Its not as easy to deceive Silver Surfer via deception because of his cosmic awareness.

Fear Itself: The Deep 03:Tyrak the Terrible tried to sneak up on silver surfer by disusing as a innocent lady helping Surfer out, but good old surfer shall not be so easily fooled :p

Given that Silver Surfer has telepathy, he can communicate with either of them that a switch has been made, or simply yell out loud, the deception is not going to work, not to mention that doesnt really give them a win anyhow.

Tyrak isn’t magical. A mystical spell of deception would alter the way you perceive what your senses are telling you. There are plenty of instances of mystics (including Fate) using such spells to be undiscerned by beings of great perception. Hector Fate was able to hide his surveillance of high end mystics including Spectre ( Phantom Stranger being the only one who could sense him watching) who’s senses should have detected it. No that wasn’t straus Fate but it was a low level spell

Anything to suggest he can hurt Monarch? I get the impression you under-estimate Monarch. While he doesnt have a lot of feats he sure as hell has few awesome feats, lets jump right through to his best feat till date.

Countdown Arena 04:Monarch takes on an army of 3 Superman and 39 Captain Atoms from all around DC multiverse and beats them with ease.

so is there a reason to believe Ray can do what this army of Superman level beings failed? Note he doesnt have to take Ray down, he just has to hand in there without getting KOed (because frankly apart from Ray i dont see anyone being able to actually take on Monarch here and survive.

Trust me I’m not underestimating Monarch (or anyone else here). I know full well I’m up against it, the most powerful member of my team is in character equal to the least powerful of yours. Ray’s best feat was to take on a dimensional entity. One who had been trapped and contained within a dimension and mystically bound for over a century by the former owners of the blood stone ( BloodWynde’s talisman). The entity had tricked JLA into getting Ray into his dimension, as only the energy he could produce would break it’s containment. Once he had done so only Ray could bring him back. To do so he absorbed all light in the dimension and light from outside. It took almost all he had to harm a dimensional entity but I‘d say he’s at least capable of hurting Monarch. Putting him down compteletely probably not but he can hurt him. Added to which Ray can make energy duplicates that could divert Monarch away from his prime attack and have his defence elsewhere. One of these energy duplicates that he gave a personality ( courtesy of his brilliant computer programming ability) became one of Ray’s prime enemies. Death Masque was a creation of Ray’s for him to train with but the programming got away from him.

So i would hope you could tell me more, but if Straus Fate is Superman level or perhaps a little above Thanos is going to outright kill him, despite his immunity to death. Also if you notice the scan i posted was of him killing Rot and being that Lady Death was seriously scared of, and the blast made the entire universe scream, i dont see how Superman level beings can take his blast. He has beaten Classic Drax rather handily, who himself was extremely durable and destroyed the planet in the process. Silver Surfer has similar durability, and Thanos nearly killed him. Thor has similar durability Thanos beat an entire Avengers / X-men team, with Thor included.

Fights Classic Drax The Destroyer, a planet is destroyed in process and Drax is soundly defeated. (Iron Man Volume 1, Issue 55)

So a superman level durability really really isnt helping Fate here.

It’s not Fate so much that has the durability but his host body Erik Straus. Also it would be below the level of durability that any Superman you mat be thinking of has, as it’s the level that the E2 Superman had. Basically Nabu made his hosts impervious ( still have the vulnerability that they need to breath so anything that takes their air away-gas, etc can harm them), and super human strength ( around the 100 ton, no near Superman level). That’s the ability that they have without any talismans. With the talismans their durability is higher. Straus fate may also have not been as durable a host as others, unlike Kent before him he was certainly susceptible to a mystic virus. It would be the combined durability of the host and that given it by the mystic artifacts of Fate that mean he can take what Thanos can dish out. As for giving Thanos trouble, even split in two (i.e Erik and Linda- both at half power) and with Erik sick he was able to battle and at least give a fight to Desaad pretending to be Darkseid. Linda was also and was able to flight quite a few parademons. I honestly neutered myself by agreeing to use the Straus Fate. I only just realized he has probably a lot less feats than monarch. He only appeared in 18 to 20 issues and aside from a battle with Desaad pretending to be Darkseid (that he only won through plot) and a battle with the Lord of Order typhoon he really hasn’t much to show. Hell Kent V with almost no appearances has more.Fate would likely take the battle within himself (sub astral planes )and then use Thanos’ emotions as his weapon.

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This i can agree. Silver Surfer with morals is going to struggle against Alan Scott. That being said, the moment they realise its not Ray but Alan Scott, they can always switch places. Silver Surfer might be outgunned against Alan Scott by not by much, Silver Surfer himself has planet busting attacks and has done so in the past, any attacks from Alan Scott can be absorbed by him and redirected in kind. Silver Surfer is faster in combat, when he has to be, so while i do not purpose Silver Surfer blitzing Alan Scott he can at the very least get more hits on Alan Scott than the other way around. I would normally favor Silver Surfer over Alan Scott in a one on one fight, but here i do NOT have to do. Silver Surfer is my opposite number for Ray he just has to be against Alan Scott before he realise Ray isnt there. From what it looks like, Fate isnt going to last too long against either Thanos or Monarch and either of them member can help defeat Alan Scott.

Worst comes to worst, two telepaths of the highest order Silver Surfer and Thanos, together can also try and use telepathy on Ray, is he immune to such tactics?

I see Alan and SS as pretty equal. I don’t believe there is any speed advantage for SS, Alan has as many feats going high speed. He’s traversed the universe to visit his friend Tubby (who married an alien princess). He has also shown altering relative rates of time. As I said in the set up thread, not full on time manip but sufficient to say that neither would be faster. He has matter manipulated, and given himself physical powers in the past to contend with things as well. The thing is SS really can’t take Alan out. I mean he is living starheart energy, so unless SS can cut him off fro the starheart I don’t see him actually finishing Alan off.

I also doubt that TP is going to work that well on Fate. For one he has his mystic protections, secondly there’s the fact that there are two minds in the mix, plus a vestage of Nabu in the helm. Alan is susceptible to TP but his will has overcome it several times. Also while both are capable of it how often do they employ such a tactic in character.

@beatboks1 said:

I don’t see how. It would if their powers were physical in nature but all the power of my team comes from “outside sources” Ray absorbs and emits/controls light. In the shrunken state in JLA after the scan I showed he still absorbed all the light in the dimension he was in as well as some from outside to sue it against a dimensional being

Fair enough.

Light isn’t completely weightless. It’s mass is such that it is almost insignificant but it still has a very (very) minute amount of mass. Gravity (and let’s face it that’s the force exerted between two bodies) doesn’t affect light as much when from a physical body like a planet. It takes something the size of the moon to have enough gravitational pull to hold something the size of man down. At some point you can get small enough to simply not have the mass to be affected by even gravity of a Black Whole enough that his speed wouldn’t allow him to exit. It’s a moot point anyway. The whole point of shrinking was to get small enough to get through the barrier and therefore avoid getting put into a black whole.

Oh firstly the barrier wasnt to trap your team or anything but to protect my team from any attack while thanos gets a portion of power cosmic from silver surfer.

Also Light is made up of photon and is believed to be weightless.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/960731.html

http://www.edu-observatory.org/physics-faq/ParticleAndNuclear/photon_mass.html

Tyrak isn’t magical. A mystical spell of deception would alter the way you perceive what your senses are telling you. There are plenty of instances of mystics (including Fate) using such spells to be undiscerned by beings of great perception. Hector Fate was able to hide his surveillance of high end mystics including Spectre ( Phantom Stranger being the only one who could sense him watching) who’s senses should have detected it. No that wasn’t straus Fate but it was a low level spell

Quite the contrary, Tyrak is magical and was so disguised by a mystical entity called Aradnea.

Even if we go by the deception works i dont see how that changes the outcome.

Trust me I’m not underestimating Monarch (or anyone else here). I know full well I’m up against it, the most powerful member of my team is in character equal to the least powerful of yours. Ray’s best feat was to take on a dimensional entity. One who had been trapped and contained within a dimension and mystically bound for over a century by the former owners of the blood stone ( BloodWynde’s talisman). The entity had tricked JLA into getting Ray into his dimension, as only the energy he could produce would break it’s containment. Once he had done so only Ray could bring him back. To do so he absorbed all light in the dimension and light from outside. It took almost all he had to harm a dimensional entity but I‘d say he’s at least capable of hurting Monarch. Putting him down compteletely probably not but he can hurt him. Added to which Ray can make energy duplicates that could divert Monarch away from his prime attack and have his defence elsewhere. One of these energy duplicates that he gave a personality ( courtesy of his brilliant computer programming ability) became one of Ray’s prime enemies. Death Masque was a creation of Ray’s for him to train with but the programming got away from him.

I still dont see how he is hurting Monarch when an army of 43 Superman level beings couldnt. Also in the scans its not like Ray is actually winning or dominating. Also if he starts to charge up his powers, will he still be invulnerable to physical attack, whats stopping Monarch from hitting him with a massive AOE attack like he did against Supermans?

So is there anything more substantial to show he can actually hurt Monarch?

Even assuming Ray is physically invulnerable, Alan Scott isnt going to tank attacks from Monarch and based on what you have said thus far neither is Dr. Fate.

It’s not Fate so much that has the durability but his host body Erik Straus. Also it would be below the level of durability that any Superman you mat be thinking of has, as it’s the level that the E2 Superman had. Basically Nabu made his hosts impervious ( still have the vulnerability that they need to breath so anything that takes their air away-gas, etc can harm them), and super human strength ( around the 100 ton, no near Superman level). That’s the ability that they have without any talismans. With the talismans their durability is higher. Straus fate may also have not been as durable a host as others, unlike Kent before him he was certainly susceptible to a mystic virus. It would be the combined durability of the host and that given it by the mystic artifacts of Fate that mean he can take what Thanos can dish out. As for giving Thanos trouble, even split in two (i.e Erik and Linda- both at half power) and with Erik sick he was able to battle and at least give a fight to Desaad pretending to be Darkseid. Linda was also and was able to flight quite a few parademons. I honestly neutered myself by agreeing to use the Straus Fate. I only just realized he has probably a lot less feats than monarch. He only appeared in 18 to 20 issues and aside from a battle with Desaad pretending to be Darkseid (that he only won through plot) and a battle with the Lord of Order typhoon he really hasn’t much to show. Hell Kent V with almost no appearances has more.Fate would likely take the battle within himself (sub astral planes )and then use Thanos’ emotions as his weapon.

I dont understand, at one point you are saying the host as 100 tons durability and the talismans actually boost their durability but without anything to prove to the contrary how are we to believe he can take out what Thanos can really give, i.e. the scan i posted the first time around? Is there anything Fate has tanked on that level?

Thanos 10

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31. Fought the Fallen One (apparently Galactus first herald after Tyrant) mind controlled him and made him his herald - Thanos 12

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Also you do realise Thanos has unbound telepotation , if you remember scans i copied of Thanos vs Silver Surfer he teleports to Death's lair with Silver Surfer which is a completely different dimension. Also Thanos is one of the most powerful telepath in Marvel unvierse, and has never actually gone down to telepathy on full powers. Guys like Adam Warlock (whose ability are soul manipulation) and Moondragon have to ask Permission to enter his mind.

I dont see how Fate can get any advantage whatsoever with telepathy or emotional manipulation.

I see Alan and SS as pretty equal. I don’t believe there is any speed advantage for SS, Alan has as many feats going high speed. He’s traversed the universe to visit his friend Tubby (who married an alien princess). He has also shown altering relative rates of time. As I said in the set up thread, not full on time manip but sufficient to say that neither would be faster. He has matter manipulated, and given himself physical powers in the past to contend with things as well. The thing is SS really can’t take Alan out. I mean he is living starheart energy, so unless SS can cut him off fro the starheart I don’t see him actually finishing Alan off.

I also doubt that TP is going to work that well on Fate. For one he has his mystic protections, secondly there’s the fact that there are two minds in the mix, plus a vestage of Nabu in the helm. Alan is susceptible to TP but his will has overcome it several times. Also while both are capable of it how often do they employ such a tactic in character.

While i inititally agreed with you this time around i disagree.

Why cant Surfer take Alan out, its not like he hasnt been KOed before.

Fighting Ravenous, creating Black Hole (Annihilation - Silver Surfer 01)

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^^^^^^ fight with Primodial Gods, he was actually losing the fight and almost died before he channeled the energy of the church (Annihiliaton: Silver surfer 02) <- set of scan someone went just above this, sorry cant arrange it better.

ilver Surfer Volume 3, Annual 07 where once pissed off Silver Surfer blows up a planet and KOed Morg , not sure if it helps but uploading the scans anyways

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So why exactly cant Surfer finish off Alan scott?He sure has more raw power.

@beatboks1 said:

I also doubt that TP is going to work that well on Fate. For one he has his mystic protections, secondly there’s the fact that there are two minds in the mix, plus a vestage of Nabu in the helm. Alan is susceptible to TP but his will has overcome it several times. Also while both are capable of it how often do they employ such a tactic in character.

OH TP was solely for Ray as opposed to anyone else because you mentioned he cant be harmed by physical means. Also Thanos has use TP at least 6 times that i know of.

Mindrapes Drax The Destroyer (Captain Marvel Volume 1, Issue 28) - note that classic Drax did have some telepatic powers, he was able to telepathically talk to Captain Marvel and Iron Man, however i do not believe he has actually shown the ability to use it offensively.

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2. A TP battle with Moondragon which Thanos wins, and give the fact that Moondragon is one of the most proficient telepath (she did not have mind gem here) it speaks volumes about Thanos telepathic abilities. - Captain Marvel, Volume 1, Issue 31

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3. Read Gamora's Mind - Warlock and Infinity Watch, Volume 1, Issue 41

04. Mindraped a priest (i do not think his name was ever reveled - Avengers Celestial Quest - 02

(two of these are going to be a copy paste, of what i have posted above)

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05. Fights and beats Kosmos (Beyonder/ The Maker) and mind rapes her (traps her limitless powers in her own human body)

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06.Fought the Fallen One (apparently Galactus first herald after Tyrant) mind controlled him and made him his herald - Thanos 12

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07. Mind controls hulk and makes him fight the Avengers

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08. Against MAgus

I am not sure if this is less often then the tactiques your team is using, like deception to win a battle.

@Killemall: At this point I'm going to have to concede. I've got nothing else. I knew I was outclassed in power when we were picking these teams (it's why I wanted 20th century Mordru to give me a fighting chance, I mean he couldn't take Captain Atom so manipulated him so he also wouldn't take Monarch). Like i said, the most powerful of my team in character is only at the level of the least powerful of yours ( I.e Alan and SS). If I'd chosen Hector, Kent or Inza fate or even Golden Age or Kent V I'd have more chance to make a showing as at least they would have been at Thanos/ monarch level. In hind sight Golden age would have been the best because he wasn't "magic" per se just an energy manipulator but with feats that include planet moving and blasts that could be felt in other dimensions.

Good luck next round.

@beatboks1: Fair enough :) Next time then mate, it was a pleasure debating with you =)

@Killemall said:

@Floopay: Ok i am a little lost, why is the planetary stats mentioned in the OP. I though you were restricting character power level, or perhaps i misread the OP.

@beatboks1:

You can each choose a single Perk. They are located at the bottom of the OP. If you read that you can see why the Planetary is there.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@beatboks1 said:

@Killemall: At this point I'm going to have to concede. I've got nothing else. I knew I was outclassed in power when we were picking these teams (it's why I wanted 20th century Mordru to give me a fighting chance, I mean he couldn't take Captain Atom so manipulated him so he also wouldn't take Monarch). Like i said, the most powerful of my team in character is only at the level of the least powerful of yours ( I.e Alan and SS). If I'd chosen Hector, Kent or Inza fate or even Golden Age or Kent V I'd have more chance to make a showing as at least they would have been at Thanos/ monarch level. In hind sight Golden age would have been the best because he wasn't "magic" per se just an energy manipulator but with feats that include planet moving and blasts that could be felt in other dimensions.

Good luck next round.

Is this truly the might of Killemall- that people concede defeat rather than fight on? Surely to face him in combat is to court death itself!!!!!!!!!!!!

=D

@laflux: killemall is a good debater but it was his team that was never going to be beaten by mine. I knew from the outset I couldn't defeat his team, and was just planning to take it as far as I could. i mean his least powerful team member was roughly the power level of my highest. when killemall listed his team I picked Mordru thinking that would sort of level off for my lower team members but he thought it was unfair so I swapped. any other change I was going to make would have lowered the power level i had even further

@laflux: Firstly love the avy and the dialogue you just made my day. Secondly, well more like the might of my team, lets see if anyone else fares any better in the tournament, this is one of the scariest team you will see, unless someone reaches upto say Odin's level.

@beatboks1: I still think it would be unfair if you put it Mordru, isnt he like Odin level (dont know much about Mordru)? Thanos can hang with a Odin level character, but pretty much has nothing to put them down or really hurt them seriously, ODin on the other hand could finish off thanos with but one move. Silver Surfer already got one shotted during Blood And Thunder and manhandled in Thor : Galactus Seed arc, and monarch has insufficient feats to say he can hang with someone that powerful. BTW do you have collection of Mordru's feat somewhere i would love to check it out.

Good debate.

@god_spawn: Oh congrats on the modship mate, when did that happen? :p

@Killemall: Earlier today. Current reigning Battle forum heavyweight champ and now battle forum mod? Bawse status :P.

@god_spawn said:

@Killemall: Earlier today. Current reigning Battle forum heavyweight champ and now battle forum mod? Bawse status :P.

Cool. Now all thats missing on this statement is a gif of CM punk, to make it perfect :p

@Killemall:

@god_spawn said:

@Killemall: Earlier today. Current reigning Battle forum heavyweight champ and now battle forum mod? Bawse status :P.

@Killemall:

@beatboks1:

I would say a combo of both. Thanos and the Silver Surfer is one of Killemall's favorites, and really Thanos is right at the limit of what you can pick. You also have to remember that was Classic Thanos who thought Odin, and since then he has two major upgrades, taking residual energy from the HOTU and from the Thanos Imperative. So it was a Uphill battle and credit to beatbooks1.

If I had to go up against that Team, I would probably choose Morg in WoL, Darksied (Soulfire) and Zuras. Yes I know that Zuras is a sky-father, but he is also an eternal, who Thanos according to his bio's, is supposed to be superior to all. But actually, due to lack of feats I probably go with High-father or Ares as my last choice.

Preferably, I keep it street-level if I can, as that is where I am best, as I am doing with CadanceV2 in my debate. I'm two thirds of the way through. So far, so good!!!!!

@laflux: i have a pretty good record with Thanos thus far i have had 2 other concessions in a CAV from Logo500 and Nickthedevil. Give me about a month and we can do a CAV with say Spiderman villain. Havent finished a lot, i think i finished reading from 520 to 643 thus far. Have quite a bit of issues to go through, once i finish the Amazing Spiderman Series, Marvel Knight Spiderman, and Friendly Neighbourhood spiderman, which should take me about a month i would be open to a debate with spiderman villian. I am really digging this MR. Negative character, but i am missing Mr. NEgative 1-4 thus far, have to get it soon and we can have a go.

I think you will likely win but it should be fun, my first CAV with a streel level :)

@Killemall: I just typed like a five paragraph reply to this detailing Mordru's history and power elvels and why a 20th century Mordru isn't any where near Odin while a 30th century one would be close only to find it disappear when I click post AGGGHHHHHH

I'll try again tomorrow

@beatboks1: I really hate when it happens to me..

A short but sweet debate guys.

@Killemall: OK take 2

I would say one could easily say 30th century Mordru is near Odin level. At that level he could solo the combined LoSH/JLA/and JSA. He could one shot Classic Fate when he was drawing on the power of both Alan Scot and Hal Jordan, one shot the Demons three. It took the power of all the wizards of sorcerers world to create a spell that would confine him to the universe of Earth in the 30th Century and even with that he was able to breach it enough to astral project to the 20th century. Most of these appearances are pre COIE, but courtesy of a JSA issue where Hector Fate saw his future and we see the image of the JLA/JSA/LoSH cross over definitely still canon ( though obviously since all the players are less powerful so is he).

The first time he really appears in the 20th Century (that i can recall anyway) was in an Amethyst mini shortly after COIE ( (86 or 87 can't quite recall which). In that he takes teh body of a gem world man who has been calling on the lords of Chaos for Power Wrenn ( Wrynn , Wrann - something like that). Here he is fought by Amethyst and retreats tail between legs. He retreats to a place of power for the LOC and even there in a place of power for him she kicks his proverbial. Amethyst has good showings but is no where near IMHO Classic Fate based on them. Clearly this isn't the same Mordru who n the cross over so easily one shotted DC's premier mystic.

You have to remember that his history since COIE is one of building power. he absorbed the power of several Lords of Order to be able to kill Jared Stevens (Fate). He absorbed some of the Starheart power in one of his encounters with the JSA and the power of the Fate artifacts in another. he absorbed the power of the Rock of eternity to be able to escape it and used that against Shazam. Likewise he absorbed the power of the realm of the amulet ( the heaven created by Kent original fate for him and his wife) to escape it. He also was going to "feast" on the speed force from Jay Garrick in JSA until he was interrupted. In that respect he is muc like most high end wizards and their peak feats. Classic Strange and fate are the same. the peak feats of Arion, and Spectre (like COIE anti- minitor and defeating Shazam at the ROE) * in the original post I typed I detailed several for each of these Characters in another paragraph).

Mordu in his 20th Century appearances after Amethyst is definitely a team buster, but that isn't anything that either Thanos or Monarch couldn't do. Yes he could Solo the JSA, but let's remember that Alan Scot was also able to match him twice and that on one occasion he actually cut him with a sword formed from the starheart after he had absorbed part of Nabu's and Arion's power. Could a 20th Century Mordru contend with Odin, I'd say he could make a showing of it but would definitely go down in the end. The reason he could make a showing is more to do with the fact that he draws on the power of others so consistently that he would somehow gain some power from Odin to be able to match him.

@Killemall: Oh and no I haven't as yet got a Mordru folder 9 it's not very often I have to debate him) but after this question i might get cracking on one over the next couple of weeks. Just have to find and pull my LoSH, Amethyst, and other appearances ( I can find all the JSA ones in a heartbeat)

@beatboks1:

YOu back in this to debate?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: He's setting up a CAV match on Mordu vs Odin with Killemall.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@Floopay: He's setting up a CAV match on Mordu vs Odin with Killemall.

Nah more like he is giving a background on Mordru, a character i admire but know little about.

Nice debate fellows.