Lucifer Morningstar vs The World Forger (Alpheus)

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TheOneBelowAIl

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#1  Edited By TheOneBelowAIl

One of creation's most powerful, and beautiful angel who shaped creation.

No Caption Provided

Vs

Alpheus (World Forger) who is stated to create to be able to create multiverses.

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EDIT:

Lucifer is able to use his Flaming Sword (The World Forger has his hammer)

Lucifer is bloodlusted

Lucifer has a week of prep time.

Lucifer has wings

Lucifer in his prime

Sorry, for the late changes. I wanted to even up the fight a little bit.

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xearesay

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#2  Edited By xearesay

World Forger since he governs the literal domains Lucifer’s creator spawned from. Lucifer is honestly fiction to the World Forger. Especially since he was one shotted by one of the Otherkind. And not even by the most powerful of them nonetheless.

No being from the Sphere of Gods is touching a Monitor.

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thebeyonder1

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@xearesay: is he limited by the sphere of the gods hasn’t he gone beyond the source.

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xearesay

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#4  Edited By xearesay

@thebeyonder1: He was superior to Kirby’s source which has been retconned by Scott Snyder. He hasn’t been shown to go beyond the Sphere of Gods as far as I know.

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Deagonx

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Lucifer in a shit stomp, he has much better feats and much clearer scaling to higher DC concepts. Xearesay's contention that the Source was somehow retconned by Snyder is unsubstantiated. Xearesay also considers Overvoid to be the Source so his opinion is particularly suspect.

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Kingant27

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#6  Edited By Kingant27

Presence gets overrated IMO, and him being apparently the 2nd god statement, which he is tarnished with; thus fight is a lot closer than it looks IMO.

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Shinne

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@deagonx said:

Lucifer in a shit stomp, he has much better feats.

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jamespacker

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Dint

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xearesay

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#10  Edited By xearesay

Lol what higher scaling does Lucifer have? The Endless? World Forger is beyond them. And we literally see Lucifer get killed by beings who are lower on the hierarchy like the Otherkind, who World Forger literally views as fiction since he’s from the 6th dimension which is the highest plane of existence. And Lucifer has literally no higher feats than World Forger. World Forger’s physically created body only being knocked down by Superman’s hit is already greater than anything Lucifer has tanked.

You guys need to stop trying to make these characters more powerful than how they’re actually displayed relative to the entire cosmology.

Otherkind > Lucifer.

World Forger > Otherkind.

World Forger > Lucifer.

This is simple logic.

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Deagonx

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#11  Edited By Deagonx

@xearesay:

And we literally see Lucifer get killed by beings who are lower on the hierarchy like the Otherkind

Lucifer was never killed by the Otherkind. You're thinking of First of the Fallen. Different character entirely.

World Forger’s physically created body only being knocked down by Superman’s hit is already greater than anything Lucifer has tanked.

Whew lad. World Forger tanked a punch from base Superman. Watch out Morningstar.

This is simple logic.

Sure, it's just based on a false premise, that the Otherkind are more powerful than Lucifer. I'm also not sure where the assertion WF > Otherkind comes from.

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xearesay

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Different character based off what? Lol.

Base? Superman was amped. The punch ripped apart the 6th dimension, shattered the Forgers Multiverse, and was a power beyond imagination. Lol that shit would have honestly killed any denizen of the Sphere of Gods and it only knocked World Forger down for a mere moment. And World Forger took this outside of his domain where he’s weaker in a physical body he created... lol World Forger’s durability > Lucifer.

Maybe from the 6th dimension being a whole governing layer beyond the dimensional superstructure? Lol?

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deactivated-5ea5f4ffce0c1

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Two Vertigo writers (without coordination of any what so to other) were co-writing Sandman and the other Hellblazer and created two different kinds of depictions of Devil in each stories without really consulting each other. That is why we have two satanic/devil characters from DC.
Hellblazers' writer tried to 'fix' this by saying that Lucie Star is not the real Satan. That First of the Fallen (hellblazer version of Satan) was the real Satan (who was always a true demon rather than just an evil fallen angel) who ruled hell and came before the archangel Samael or Lucifer the Morningstar we know until Lucifer took power in Hell. Hope this clarifies it all.

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deactivated-5ea5f4ffce0c1

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I am giving this fight to Alpheus as well, and not much to think about.

Lucifer created 1 universe (or multiverse. whatever keeps that futile discussion afloat) and Alpheus created many more creations casually with his hammer alone can impose like a copy paste replace over a Multiverse with a thump of his weapon. Lucifer struggled just to keep 1 creation alive, which we can prove was (probably) not even infinite and It is as simple as that.

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xearesay

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@belisariuslicinius: Lol where is the evidence that these were two different depictions though? All that really saids is they were retconning each other.

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deactivated-5ea5f4ffce0c1

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@xearesay said:

@belisariuslicinius: Lol where is the evidence that these were two different depictions though? All that really saids is they were retconning each other.

As I promised and here it is for Ellie (a self exiled succubi) explains the distinction between the First of the Fallen and Lucifer to John Constantine.

"THE FIRST OF THE FALLEN.

YOU SEE.... LUCIFER FELL... BUT WHEN HE GOT TO THE BOTTOM... SOMEONE ELSE WAS ALREADY THERE..."

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

"LUCIFER HAD BEEN GREATEST OF THE ARCHANGELS, AND HE COULD NEVER MATCH SUCH POWER... BUT THE MORNINGSTAR IS GONE..."

First of the Fallen was a classic main villain against John Constantine in the original hellblazer who was written before neil came up with the Morningstar and retcon was made a really long time ago and to fix this issue this happened so hope this clarifies misunderstandings

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HukO

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Deagonx

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@xearesay said:

Different character based off what? Lol.

Different character based on the fact they are different characters...? Lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_of_the_Fallen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_(DC_Comics)

Base? Superman was amped. The punch ripped apart the 6th dimension, shattered the Forgers Multiverse, and was a power beyond imagination. Lol that shit would have honestly killed any denizen of the Sphere of Gods and it only knocked World Forger down for a mere moment. And World Forger took this outside of his domain where he’s weaker in a physical body he created... lol World Forger’s durability > Lucifer.

We've seen Superman sundipped before, it isn't that crazy. Plus your assertion that it would've killed someone from the Sphere is unfounded because he never attacked someone from the Sphere with it. That's a completely baseless theory.

Maybe from the 6th dimension being a whole governing layer beyond the dimensional superstructure? Lol?

And? Is there some rule that someone from the "dimensional superstructure" can't beat someone from outside of it? We've seen it happen plenty of times.

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Enigma22

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@xearesay said:

World Forger since he governs the literal domains Lucifer’s creator spawned from. Lucifer is honestly fiction to the World Forger. Especially since he was one shotted by one of the Otherkind. And not even by the most powerful of them nonetheless.

No being from the Sphere of Gods is touching a Monitor.

Just like when Superman punched the hell out of Mobius or when he was shitting his pants because Perpetua threw a planet at him? Or that the literal Anti-Monitor got knocked out.....by a car?

Yeah Lucifer takes this quite easily.

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Dint

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@enigma22: wait by a car lmao

Can you show me the scan ?

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Y3kthunder

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lucifer

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Enigma22

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#23  Edited By Enigma22

@dint:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I'm not making this shit up. Notice in the first panel the Anti-Monitor going "Do you hear a car horn?" and getting his ass handed to him by an amped up car. Knocking the World-Forger out of him.

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xearesay

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#24  Edited By xearesay

@enigma22: Oh you mean when he was depowered and didn't even have enough energy to raise his arms while already being outside of his domain? And having a planet thrown at him from across the multiverse that could generate enough energy for World Forgers hammer to spark creation despite you claiming that it's planetary. I swear you and Deagon only know how to take things out of context.

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TonyStark6999

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xearesay

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@belisariuslicinius: So it seems The Fallen is separate but greater than Lucifer. I guess that makes this an even heavier curb since the Otherkind one shotted The Fallen.

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Deagonx

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#27  Edited By Deagonx

@xearesay:

So it seems The Fallen is separate but greater than Lucifer.

No, you're misreading the scan. "He could never match such power" is in reference to FotF, because he couldn't rule hell while Lucifer was around due to being so much weaker than the greatest archangel. He rules Hell now because "the Morningstar is gone."

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BruceRogers

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Superman didn't destroy anything lol. His punch simply knocked WF down and that interruption prevented him from completing his world, which doomed the multiverse. From assistant editor Andrew Marino himself:

https://mobile.twitter.com/amarino2814/status/1156933824988606464

Link 1

Link 2

Fanboys milk that one non-contexual comment from the artist to wank Superman, WF or both at the same time. Lucifer won't even feel this, it's absurd that people are arguing otherwise.

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xearesay

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@deagonx:

We've seen Superman sundipped before, it isn't that crazy.

A sundipped superman has never one shot a multiverse and knocked down a multiversal being. Stop trying to equate them as the same so you can lowball.

Plus your assertion that it would've killed someone from the Sphere is unfounded because he never attacked someone from the Sphere with it. That's a completely baseless theory.

lol or maybe you could realize that the World Forgers Multiverse Superman shattered was meant to replace the current multiverse. And multiverse in this context is including the Sphere of Gods since he's trying to prevent this multiverse that's floating in the void waiting to be judged by the Source Judges.

No Caption Provided

And? Is there some rule that someone from the "dimensional superstructure" can't beat someone from outside of it? We've seen it happen plenty of times.

Yes. Yes there is.

"The dimensional superstructure of the multiverse governs all things imaginable and unimaginable, and is wielded by those put in place to Monitor all ofcreation."

No Caption Provided

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Deagonx

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@xearesay:

A sundipped superman has never one shot a multiverse and knocked down a multiversal being.

He has now. But he didnt one-shot a Multiverse.

lol or maybe you could realize that the World Forgers Multiverse Superman shattered

Superman didn't shatter anything. He simply prevented WF from completing it.

No Caption Provided

"The dimensional superstructure of the multiverse governs all things imaginable and unimaginable, and is wielded by those put in place to Monitor all ofcreation."

You must have misread my comment. I asked for evidence that no one from the Sphere can beat people above it. Do you have any evidence of that?

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xearesay

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@brucerogers:

Superman didn't destroy anything lol. His punch simply knocked WF down and that interruption prevented him from completing his world, which doomed the multiverse. From assistant editor Andrew Marino himself:

1. He said Superman didn't destroy "the multiverse" as in our multiverse. Which is why he follows up by saying "He merely knocked the World Forger down saving our multiverse." Multiverse in that context is in reference to the multiverse they were on prior to entering the 6th dimension. None of that is in reference to the World Forgers masterpiece.

2. He literally states "He just broke the world(Forgers Master piece) of the future JL the World Forger created in the 6th dimension."

Meaning Superman 100% did destroy the World Forgers masterpiece which is equivalent to the Multiverse flying through the void waiting to be judged by the Source Judges.

Thanks for confirming my point though. And proving that you can't even properly read your own links.

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BruceRogers

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#32  Edited By BruceRogers

@xearesay: Bruh, this is some next level denial. Both Deagon and I provided you with screenshots and links where Marino very clearly explains that Superman doomed WF's multiverse because he prevented his world from being completed, which caused everything else to crumble in the already unstable multiverse. He didn't do it with raw force. He never destroyed the 6th dimension either -- that's completely made up.

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xearesay

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#34  Edited By xearesay

@brucerogers: No this what happens when you try to use twitter statements that are replying to loaded questions and giving information that doesn't go through editors as some basis for what happened in the comic.

"So to clarify. I misunderstood the original question I answered. I thought they were talking about our multiverse. Not the World Forger's. Sorry about that. Yes, that one was destroyed."

No Caption Provided

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BruceRogers

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#35  Edited By BruceRogers

@xearesay: Yes, it was destroyed because Superman stopped WF from completing his world, which in turn caused everything else to crumble. I mean come on, it's not rocket science. Anyone with even basic comprehension can understand that.

Scroll down the convo to see what I am talking about...

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xearesay

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#36  Edited By xearesay

@deagonx:

He has now. But he didnt one-shot a Multiverse.

Except he did though?

"... What. What have you done? My masterpiece.... you destroyed it."

No Caption Provided

Superman didn't shatter anything. He simply prevented WF from completing it.

He didn't even understand the question that guy was asking because it was a loaded question with information being pulled out of context. He later states he was misinterpreting the question and that Superman did indeed destroy the multiverse.

"So to clarify. I misunderstood the original question I answered. I thought they were talking about our multiverse. Not the World Forger's. Sorry about that. Yes, that one was destroyed."

No Caption Provided

You must have misread my comment. I asked for evidence that no one from the Sphere can beat people above it. Do you have any evidence of that?

Evidence as in what? Evidence to you and evidence to me mean different things and you know that. I already gave you my reasoning. Beings in the 6th dimension wield power that governs all these realms such as the Sphere of Gods and the collective unconscious. Meaning beings like World Forger are from a higher position of power where they have authority over what makes Lucifer, Lucifer and what makes the Presence, the Presence. And since this is the case there is absolutely nothing Lucifer can do to the World Forger.

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xearesay

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@brucerogers: I don't think a twitter statement where the guy didn't even understand the question he was being asked is reliable. And like I said before. World Forger was in the process of striking his crisis anvil which is literally creation tier power. And Superman's punch shut that down entirely. Which is why World Forger saids "... What. What have you done? My masterpiece.... you destroyed it." Superman literally nullified the creation of a multiverse and destroyed it in the process. That counts as destroying a multiverse. The out of context statements you're using even confirm this.

"So to clarify. I misunderstood the original question I answered. I thought they were talking about our multiverse. Not the World Forger's. Sorry about that. Yes, that one was destroyed."

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MichaelJulius

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#38  Edited By MichaelJulius
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MichaelJulius

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#39  Edited By MichaelJulius

Superman didn't destroy anything but the planet WF made inside of the 6th Dimension. And even then it wasn't really destroyed, just made a big old crater. And he did this was powered by suns and also the power test WF endowed Superman with + Mxyz's 5th dimension IMP energies too. Forger was in the process of making a new Multiverse. Superman interrupted him and that new multiverse was prevented from replacing the positive matter creation.

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Deagonx

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@xearesay:

Except he did though?

No, he didn't.

No Caption Provided

He later states he was misinterpreting the question and that Superman did indeed destroy the multiverse.

The statements you posted don't contradict this one. He says "yes, that one was destroyed." He also says it was destroyed in the original statement. Whether or not it was destroyed is not a matter of contention. The issue is you claiming Superman's punch was responsible without evidence.

Another tweet he posted supports the original.

No Caption Provided

There he is two times on record explaining that the reason WF's multiverse was destroyed is because Superman stopped WF from completing it, not that Superman himself destroyed it.

In the scan you posted, where he says that he misunderstood the question, it was because his original answer (which is neither of the two tweets I've posted here) said the Multiverse wasnt destroyed, because he thought he was being asked about the real DC Multiverse, not WF's potential one.

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So, to recap. Someone asked him about Superman destroying the Multiverse, he thought he was being asked about the DC Multiverse, and said Superman didn't destroy it. DarrenKyle7 quotes JL25 and says "you destroyed it" and Andrew Marino clarifies that indeed, WF's new Multiverse was destroyed. Key phrase, was destroyed, he never claims Superman is the one to destroy it.

Plus he clarifies in two other tweets that the reason for the Multiverse's destruction was stopping WF, not Superman's attack.

Evidence as in what?

Evidence as in a statement that actually says the gods are all weaker than anyone above them or any actual interaction between these two sets of groups that show an absolute power differential.

Evidence to you and evidence to me mean different things

Yes, evidence to me means something that is actually relevant to the question being asked with a clear explicit statement or at leeast clear implication, not a rag tag collection of little breadcrumbs from different canons, authors, and comics combined with a limpdick attempt at "deductive reasoning" like what you've been trying to pull with the "Mandrakk had all the bleed" crap with unrelated interview statements and bad understanding of English.

What you post isn't evidence at all, as shown by your attempt at misrepresenting Andrew Marino's words because you barely take the time to actually read what you're posting.

Superman literally nullified the creation of a multiverse and destroyed it in the process.

No, he absolutely did not. Superman prevented WF from finishing it, which resulted in it's destruction. This means that if WF had done nothing at all, the Multiverse would've crumbled on it's own without him finishing it. All Superman did was prevent him from taking action.

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BruceRogers

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#41  Edited By BruceRogers

@xearesay: He simply misunderstood the initial question, big deal. He still corrected himself and answered, loud and clear. There is really no way one can not understand what he said. Even if they try. Not sure how you are arguing this with a straight face.

He was directly involved in the comic, so his word >>>>> a random online poster's. It goes without saying.

But hey, if you want to be in denial, be in denial. But the evidence is here, clear as day, for everyone.

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Soratoumiga

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Lucifer flicks.

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xearesay

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@deagonx:

The statements you posted don't contradict this one. He says "yes, that one was destroyed." He also says it was destroyed in the original statement. Whether or not it was destroyed is not a matter of contention. The issue is you claiming Superman's punch was responsible without evidence.

It contradicts the previous statements he didn't understand what the questions the previous guy was asking. He openly stated that he misinterpreted what was being said. Meaning you can't use his answers because they're clearly given out of confusion.

"The issue is you claiming Superman's punch was responsible without evidence."

"... What. What have you done? My masterpiece.... you destroyed it."

There he is two times on record explaining that the reason WF's multiverse was destroyed is because Superman stopped WF from completing it, not that Superman himself destroyed it.

Yes he nullified the World Forger from descending his masterpiece upon the current Multiverse which resulted in that Multiverse being destroyed. You realize he still needed some form of creation tier power to nullify World Forger from fully establishing his multiverse new multiverse onto the current multiverse right?

In the scan you posted, where he says that he misunderstood the question, it was because his original answer (which is neither of the two tweets I've posted here) said the Multiverse wasnt destroyed, because he thought he was being asked about the real DC Multiverse, not WF's potential one.

I literally said this in my previous reply. His statements towards the other commenter were being interpreted as our multiverse which is why this answer "Superman did not destroy the multiverse! He merely knocked the World Forger down, saving our multiverse for the time being" is not applicable to if World Forgers master piece was destroyed or not.

No Caption Provided

So, to recap. Someone asked him about Superman destroying the Multiverse, he thought he was being asked about the DC Multiverse, and said Superman didn't destroy it. DarrenKyle7 quotes JL25 and says "you destroyed it" and Andrew Marino clarifies that indeed, WF's new Multiverse was destroyed. Key phrase, was destroyed, he never claims Superman is the one to destroy it.

Plus he clarifies in two other tweets that the reason for the Multiverse's destruction was stopping WF, not Superman's attack.

He doesn't have to directly claim Superman destroyed it or not. However I'll agree that Superman didn't directly destroy the World Forgers multiverse but that he played a direct role in nullifying the World Forger from striking his crisis anvil. Which is still nullifying World Forgers creation tier power since he was in the process of descending his masterpiece upon the current multiverse. And I would also consider that to still be beyond power that any denizen of the Sphere of Gods could produce since it is specifically World Forgers role to do this type of stuff.

Evidence as in a statement that actually says the gods are all weaker than anyone above them or any actual interaction between these two sets of groups that show an absolute power differential.

We don't need a direct statement that saids "all beings in the Sphere of Gods are weaker than the beings above them" to confirm this. Thinking so would be implying that information can only be conceived to the reader explicitly word for word, which is obviously wrong. This is just a personal standard you're setting for something to be accepted which I personally don't care about since literally nothing typed is some general consensus on this forum or anywhere else pertaining to comics.

However, even playing by the rules you set I can still prove you wrong with Mxy's statements about beings in the 6th dimension.

"But there is a sixth realm. At the very tip-top of everything, closed off to all but the most powerful beings."

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Yes, evidence to me means something that is actually relevant to the question being asked with a clear explicit statement or at leeast clear implication,

You do understand that this definition requires us to assume that what's recognizable between two people as clear and unclear are aligned right? See this is problem. You and me don't see what's clear and what's unclear the same way. So it doesn't matter how you define evidence. It's about how one draws implications.

not a rag tag collection of little breadcrumbs from different canons, authors, and comics combined with a limpdick attempt at "deductive reasoning" like what you've been trying to pull with the "Mandrakk had all the bleed" crap with unrelated interview statements and bad understanding of English.

That's what it is in your eyes. However you're not a reliable source for what's clear and what's not on Final Crisis. Especially since you strawmanned me like 20 times in a different thread, and openly tried to imply that I cropped or edited a scan out of position as a way to avoid admitting that Superman activated the Miracle Machine after being confronted by Rox Ogama.

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What you post isn't evidence at all, as shown by your attempt at misrepresenting Andrew Marino's words because you barely take the time to actually read what you're posting.

lol I'm misrepresenting. his statements? I'm the one who pointed how the Marino didn't understand the first commenters loaded question which BruceRodgers tried to use as evidence. That's not misrepresenting

No, he absolutely did not. Superman prevented WF from finishing it, which resulted in it's destruction.

Yes he stopped World Forger from channeling a new crisis on to the current Multiverse allowing his masterpiece to descend upon it. Which is definitely multiversal power.

This means that if WF had done nothing at all, the Multiverse would've crumbled on it's own without him finishing it. All Superman did was prevent him from taking action

World Forger was in a channel. You could literally say this about anyone being who's in the process of channeling. Not a valid argument.

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xearesay

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@brucerogers: If he misunderstood the initial question then you were wrong for using his initial answer. Simple as that.

I'm arguing this because you guys are ignoring that what Superman disrupted was the World Forger in the process of channeling a crisis on the current Multiverse that would allow the Forgers masterpiece to descend upon it and replace the current one. Which is multiversal power whether.

And if World Forger was utilizing multiversal power then what level of power would Superman have needed to stop this process from happening?

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xearesay

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Anyway. World Forger stomps. His position of power dwarfs Lucifer and all the other angels. Lucifer is merely a creation of the Presence, and the Presence was given his godlike powers by Hecate. And Hecate is inferior to beings in the 6th dimension. Simple power scaling proves Lucifer is fodder the Monitor Brothers in the current cosmology. Justice league Dark blew this open when Heaven and Hell were shitting themselves over the Otherkind.

World Forger > Hecate.

Hecate > Presence.

Presence > Lucifer.

GG Presence wankers.

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Deagonx

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@xearesay:

It contradicts the previous statements he didn't understand what the questions the previous guy was asking

Correct, but the original two statements I posted were unrelated to the question he did not understand.

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He clearly explains multiple times that the lack of a final hammer->anvil from WF is what ultimately caused the destruction, not a "multiverse-busting" feat from Superman.

You realize he still needed some form of creation tier power to nullify World Forger from fully establishing his multiverse new multiverse onto the current multiverse right?

Sure, as long as we agree that he did not physically damage the Multiverse himself, it was purely a lack of action on WF's part that caused the destruction.

His statements towards the other commenter were being interpreted as our multiverse which is why this answer "Superman did not destroy the multiverse! He merely knocked the World Forger down, saving our multiverse for the time being" is not applicable to if World Forgers master piece was destroyed or not.

Yep, I already explained this entirely.

I'll agree that Superman didn't directly destroy the World Forgers multiverse but that he played a direct role in nullifying the World Forger from striking his crisis anvil.

Glad you agree with the thing the editor explained.

And I would also consider that to still be beyond power that any denizen of the Sphere of Gods could produce since it is specifically World Forgers role to do this type of stuff.

All he did was attack Forger and prevent him from cementing the Multiverse. You've yet to establish that WF is more powerful than anyone from the Sphere.

Thinking so would be implying that information can only be conceived to the reader explicitly word for word, which is obviously wrong.

You must have missed the "or a clear implication" part of my comment.

"But there is a sixth realm. At the very tip-top of everything, closed off to all but the most powerful beings."

This does not prove that no one in the sphere can defeat someone from the 6th Dimension, especially since Superman did.

a way to avoid admitting that Superman activated the Miracle Machine after being confronted by Rox Ogama.

I have never denied that whatsoever. All I have done is ask you for proof that Superman used it offensively towards Rox, which you've yet to establish. I've also asked for evidence that he activated it twice, which you haven't provided. Pretending I ever avoided "admitting" Superman is the one who activated it is just you trying to feel better about yourself.

I'm the one who pointed how the Marino didn't understand the first commenters loaded question

Except we posted multiple scans that had nothing to do with Marino's misunderstanding, and then you replied with a thread completely unrelated to those posts and tried to claim those were the ones Marino redacted.

Which is definitely multiversal power.

Sure would be nice if you had evidence or something. Stopping someone from striking a hammer is not a multiversal feat.

Not a valid argument.

You literally conceded to this argument earlier in your comment.

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Deagonx

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@xearesay:

World Forger > Hecate.

Hecate > Presence.

Ahh yes, you abandon the first set of flawed scaling for another set of flawed scaling. When has Hecate shown deference to WF, and when has Presence shown deference to Hecate?

Spoiler alert: None of these characters have ever interacted.

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xearesay

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@deagonx:

Ahh yes, you abandon the first set of flawed scaling for another set of flawed scaling. When has Hecate shown deference to WF, and when has Presence shown deference to Hecate?

Why would they need to be directly interacting with one another(as in fighting) for us to power scale them?

Spoiler alert: None of these characters have ever interacted.

Yes they did. Mxy held up a map, which included the Sphere of Gods, and said the 6th dimension is above all of this.

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Deagonx

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@xearesay:

Why would they need to be directly interacting with one another(as in fighting) for us to power scale them?

That's one sure way of doing it. But the fact is none of these characters have ever even been mentioned in the same sentence. Instead of going by actual feats, you just cling to this obfuscated series of scaling between characters who are not connected to eachother in any way.

Mxy held up a map, which included the Sphere of Gods, and said the 6th dimension is above all of this.

And this is a response to me saying they've never interacted... how?

That map also included the Monitor Sphere and Nil. Should I take this to mean you believe World Forger is >>> Mandrakk?

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xearesay

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@deagonx:

That's one sure way of doing it. But the fact is none of these characters have ever even been mentioned in the same sentence. Instead of going by actual feats, you just cling to this obfuscated series of scaling between characters who are not connected to eachother in any way.

They don't need to be connected to one another to hold higher positions in the cosmology which Mxy explained, does indeed translate to power.

And this is a response to me saying they've never interacted... how?

Sigh... You do realize I was just simply mocking you right?

When it came to the Monitors, you didn't care if they interacted with each other or not. You were simply power scaling based off cosmology positioning statements by Mxy.

When it comes to Lucifer, you abandoned this logic and disregard cosmology positioning. You even started stating that we need direct statements that confirm whether denizens of the SOG are less powerful then beings in Nil. Something you didn't care about when it came to the Monitors.

You: "Yes he did. He held up a map, which included the Monitor Sphere, and said the 6th dimension is above all of this."

Also you: "Evidence as in a statement that actually says the gods are all weaker than anyone above them or any actual interaction between these two sets of groups that show an absolute power differential."

It's just obvious at this point. You're a hypocrite. You make up random rules and standards for anything Morrison related and then throw them all away when it comes to Vertigo.

Here's another example.

You routinely made claims that the Sphere of Gods the Dreaming is beyond Space and Time because of how it's being described.

However when I showed you scans of other realms in the Sphere of Gods being directly stated as beyond space and time, you denied it's nature based off how the it was drawn.

This basically boiled down to you claiming that because the scan of Dream is displayed in surrealist art, it can be considered beyond space and time.

I asked you if this was the only way comic book writers could depict realms as beyond space and time.

You told me "no."

I asked you what are the other ways writers can do this?

You told me "figure it out yourself."

Lets let that sink in for a moment... Do you see the fucking problem with this??? And your overall chain of behavior? And this is just the tip of the iceberg. There is a multitude of other examples with you doing stuff like this. Why can't you just admit you're wrong about something? Belisarius proved me wrong on the dimensions scan and the The Fallen One being the same as Lucifer. And I admitted I was wrong. However you just completely act oblivious whenever you're proven to be contradicted and repeat the same things over until everyone in the threads gets nauseated and leaves. Until you admit you're wrong on these things. I'm not going to argue with you legitimately anymore. You don't care about finding the truth. You care about brownie points and I refuse to go back and forth with someone who's very eager to argue while never admitting they're wrong.

That map also included the Monitor Sphere and Nil. Should I take this to mean you believe World Forger is >>> Mandrakk?

This isn't my argument. It's yours. Your not arguing with me right now. You're arguing with yourself.