One of creation's most powerful, and beautiful angel who shaped creation.
Vs
Alpheus (World Forger) who is stated to create to be able to create multiverses.
EDIT:
Lucifer is able to use his Flaming Sword (The World Forger has his hammer)
Lucifer is bloodlusted
Lucifer has a week of prep time.
Lucifer has wings
Lucifer in his prime
Sorry, for the late changes. I wanted to even up the fight a little bit.
@belisariuslicinius: Lol where is the evidence that these were two different depictions though? All that really saids is they were retconning each other.
As I promised and here it is for Ellie (a self exiled succubi) explains the distinction between the First of the Fallen and Lucifer to John Constantine.
"THE FIRST OF THE FALLEN.
YOU SEE.... LUCIFER FELL... BUT WHEN HE GOT TO THE BOTTOM... SOMEONE ELSE WAS ALREADY THERE..."
"LUCIFER HAD BEEN GREATEST OF THE ARCHANGELS, AND HE COULD NEVER MATCH SUCH POWER... BUT THE MORNINGSTAR IS GONE..."
First of the Fallen was a classic main villain against John Constantine in the original hellblazer who was written before neil came up with the Morningstar and retcon was made a really long time ago and to fix this issue this happened so hope this clarifies misunderstandings
I'm not making this shit up. Notice in the first panel the Anti-Monitor going "Do you hear a car horn?" and getting his ass handed to him by an amped up car. Knocking the World-Forger out of him.
We've seen Superman sundipped before, it isn't that crazy.
A sundipped superman has never one shot a multiverse and knocked down a multiversal being. Stop trying to equate them as the same so you can lowball.
Plus your assertion that it would've killed someone from the Sphere is unfounded because he never attacked someone from the Sphere with it. That's a completely baseless theory.
lol or maybe you could realize that the World Forgers Multiverse Superman shattered was meant to replace the current multiverse. And multiverse in this context is including the Sphere of Gods since he's trying to prevent this multiverse that's floating in the void waiting to be judged by the Source Judges.
And? Is there some rule that someone from the "dimensional superstructure" can't beat someone from outside of it? We've seen it happen plenty of times.
Yes. Yes there is.
"The dimensional superstructure of the multiverse governs all things imaginable and unimaginable, and is wielded by those put in place to Monitor all ofcreation."
A sundipped superman has never one shot a multiverse and knocked down a multiversal being.
He has now. But he didnt one-shot a Multiverse.
lol or maybe you could realize that the World Forgers Multiverse Superman shattered
Superman didn't shatter anything. He simply prevented WF from completing it.
"The dimensional superstructure of the multiverse governs all things imaginable and unimaginable, and is wielded by those put in place to Monitor all ofcreation."
You must have misread my comment. I asked for evidence that no one from the Sphere can beat people above it. Do you have any evidence of that?
@brucerogers: No this what happens when you try to use twitter statements that are replying to loaded questions and giving information that doesn't go through editors as some basis for what happened in the comic.
"So to clarify. I misunderstood the original question I answered. I thought they were talking about our multiverse. Not the World Forger's. Sorry about that. Yes, that one was destroyed."
He has now. But he didnt one-shot a Multiverse.
Except he did though?
"... What. What have you done? My masterpiece.... you destroyed it."
Superman didn't shatter anything. He simply prevented WF from completing it.
He didn't even understand the question that guy was asking because it was a loaded question with information being pulled out of context. He later states he was misinterpreting the question and that Superman did indeed destroy the multiverse.
"So to clarify. I misunderstood the original question I answered. I thought they were talking about our multiverse. Not the World Forger's. Sorry about that. Yes, that one was destroyed."
You must have misread my comment. I asked for evidence that no one from the Sphere can beat people above it. Do you have any evidence of that?
Evidence as in what? Evidence to you and evidence to me mean different things and you know that. I already gave you my reasoning. Beings in the 6th dimension wield power that governs all these realms such as the Sphere of Gods and the collective unconscious. Meaning beings like World Forger are from a higher position of power where they have authority over what makes Lucifer, Lucifer and what makes the Presence, the Presence. And since this is the case there is absolutely nothing Lucifer can do to the World Forger.
Except he did though?
No, he didn't.
He later states he was misinterpreting the question and that Superman did indeed destroy the multiverse.
The statements you posted don't contradict this one. He says "yes, that one was destroyed." He also says it was destroyed in the original statement. Whether or not it was destroyed is not a matter of contention. The issue is you claiming Superman's punch was responsible without evidence.
Another tweet he posted supports the original.
There he is two times on record explaining that the reason WF's multiverse was destroyed is because Superman stopped WF from completing it, not that Superman himself destroyed it.
In the scan you posted, where he says that he misunderstood the question, it was because his original answer (which is neither of the two tweets I've posted here) said the Multiverse wasnt destroyed, because he thought he was being asked about the real DC Multiverse, not WF's potential one.
So, to recap. Someone asked him about Superman destroying the Multiverse, he thought he was being asked about the DC Multiverse, and said Superman didn't destroy it. DarrenKyle7 quotes JL25 and says "you destroyed it" and Andrew Marino clarifies that indeed, WF's new Multiverse was destroyed. Key phrase, was destroyed, he never claims Superman is the one to destroy it.
Plus he clarifies in two other tweets that the reason for the Multiverse's destruction was stopping WF, not Superman's attack.
Evidence as in what?
Evidence as in a statement that actually says the gods are all weaker than anyone above them or any actual interaction between these two sets of groups that show an absolute power differential.
Evidence to you and evidence to me mean different things
Yes, evidence to me means something that is actually relevant to the question being asked with a clear explicit statement or at leeast clear implication, not a rag tag collection of little breadcrumbs from different canons, authors, and comics combined with a limpdick attempt at "deductive reasoning" like what you've been trying to pull with the "Mandrakk had all the bleed" crap with unrelated interview statements and bad understanding of English.
What you post isn't evidence at all, as shown by your attempt at misrepresenting Andrew Marino's words because you barely take the time to actually read what you're posting.
Superman literally nullified the creation of a multiverse and destroyed it in the process.
No, he absolutely did not. Superman prevented WF from finishing it, which resulted in it's destruction. This means that if WF had done nothing at all, the Multiverse would've crumbled on it's own without him finishing it. All Superman did was prevent him from taking action.
The statements you posted don't contradict this one. He says "yes, that one was destroyed." He also says it was destroyed in the original statement. Whether or not it was destroyed is not a matter of contention. The issue is you claiming Superman's punch was responsible without evidence.
It contradicts the previous statements he didn't understand what the questions the previous guy was asking. He openly stated that he misinterpreted what was being said. Meaning you can't use his answers because they're clearly given out of confusion.
"The issue is you claiming Superman's punch was responsible without evidence."
"... What. What have you done? My masterpiece.... you destroyed it."
There he is two times on record explaining that the reason WF's multiverse was destroyed is because Superman stopped WF from completing it, not that Superman himself destroyed it.
Yes he nullified the World Forger from descending his masterpiece upon the current Multiverse which resulted in that Multiverse being destroyed. You realize he still needed some form of creation tier power to nullify World Forger from fully establishing his multiverse new multiverse onto the current multiverse right?
In the scan you posted, where he says that he misunderstood the question, it was because his original answer (which is neither of the two tweets I've posted here) said the Multiverse wasnt destroyed, because he thought he was being asked about the real DC Multiverse, not WF's potential one.
I literally said this in my previous reply. His statements towards the other commenter were being interpreted as our multiverse which is why this answer "Superman did not destroy the multiverse! He merely knocked the World Forger down, saving our multiverse for the time being" is not applicable to if World Forgers master piece was destroyed or not.
So, to recap. Someone asked him about Superman destroying the Multiverse, he thought he was being asked about the DC Multiverse, and said Superman didn't destroy it. DarrenKyle7 quotes JL25 and says "you destroyed it" and Andrew Marino clarifies that indeed, WF's new Multiverse was destroyed. Key phrase, was destroyed, he never claims Superman is the one to destroy it.
Plus he clarifies in two other tweets that the reason for the Multiverse's destruction was stopping WF, not Superman's attack.
He doesn't have to directly claim Superman destroyed it or not. However I'll agree that Superman didn't directly destroy the World Forgers multiverse but that he played a direct role in nullifying the World Forger from striking his crisis anvil. Which is still nullifying World Forgers creation tier power since he was in the process of descending his masterpiece upon the current multiverse. And I would also consider that to still be beyond power that any denizen of the Sphere of Gods could produce since it is specifically World Forgers role to do this type of stuff.
Evidence as in a statement that actually says the gods are all weaker than anyone above them or any actual interaction between these two sets of groups that show an absolute power differential.
We don't need a direct statement that saids "all beings in the Sphere of Gods are weaker than the beings above them" to confirm this. Thinking so would be implying that information can only be conceived to the reader explicitly word for word, which is obviously wrong. This is just a personal standard you're setting for something to be accepted which I personally don't care about since literally nothing typed is some general consensus on this forum or anywhere else pertaining to comics.
However, even playing by the rules you set I can still prove you wrong with Mxy's statements about beings in the 6th dimension.
"But there is a sixth realm. At the very tip-top of everything, closed off to all but the most powerful beings."
Yes, evidence to me means something that is actually relevant to the question being asked with a clear explicit statement or at leeast clear implication,
You do understand that this definition requires us to assume that what's recognizable between two people as clear and unclear are aligned right? See this is problem. You and me don't see what's clear and what's unclear the same way. So it doesn't matter how you define evidence. It's about how one draws implications.
not a rag tag collection of little breadcrumbs from different canons, authors, and comics combined with a limpdick attempt at "deductive reasoning" like what you've been trying to pull with the "Mandrakk had all the bleed" crap with unrelated interview statements and bad understanding of English.
That's what it is in your eyes. However you're not a reliable source for what's clear and what's not on Final Crisis. Especially since you strawmanned me like 20 times in a different thread, and openly tried to imply that I cropped or edited a scan out of position as a way to avoid admitting that Superman activated the Miracle Machine after being confronted by Rox Ogama.
What you post isn't evidence at all, as shown by your attempt at misrepresenting Andrew Marino's words because you barely take the time to actually read what you're posting.
lol I'm misrepresenting. his statements? I'm the one who pointed how the Marino didn't understand the first commenters loaded question which BruceRodgers tried to use as evidence. That's not misrepresenting
No, he absolutely did not. Superman prevented WF from finishing it, which resulted in it's destruction.
Yes he stopped World Forger from channeling a new crisis on to the current Multiverse allowing his masterpiece to descend upon it. Which is definitely multiversal power.
This means that if WF had done nothing at all, the Multiverse would've crumbled on it's own without him finishing it. All Superman did was prevent him from taking action
World Forger was in a channel. You could literally say this about anyone being who's in the process of channeling. Not a valid argument.
It contradicts the previous statements he didn't understand what the questions the previous guy was asking
Correct, but the original two statements I posted were unrelated to the question he did not understand.
He clearly explains multiple times that the lack of a final hammer->anvil from WF is what ultimately caused the destruction, not a "multiverse-busting" feat from Superman.
You realize he still needed some form of creation tier power to nullify World Forger from fully establishing his multiverse new multiverse onto the current multiverse right?
Sure, as long as we agree that he did not physically damage the Multiverse himself, it was purely a lack of action on WF's part that caused the destruction.
His statements towards the other commenter were being interpreted as our multiverse which is why this answer "Superman did not destroy the multiverse! He merely knocked the World Forger down, saving our multiverse for the time being" is not applicable to if World Forgers master piece was destroyed or not.
Yep, I already explained this entirely.
I'll agree that Superman didn't directly destroy the World Forgers multiverse but that he played a direct role in nullifying the World Forger from striking his crisis anvil.
Glad you agree with the thing the editor explained.
And I would also consider that to still be beyond power that any denizen of the Sphere of Gods could produce since it is specifically World Forgers role to do this type of stuff.
All he did was attack Forger and prevent him from cementing the Multiverse. You've yet to establish that WF is more powerful than anyone from the Sphere.
Thinking so would be implying that information can only be conceived to the reader explicitly word for word, which is obviously wrong.
You must have missed the "or a clear implication" part of my comment.
"But there is a sixth realm. At the very tip-top of everything, closed off to all but the most powerful beings."
This does not prove that no one in the sphere can defeat someone from the 6th Dimension, especially since Superman did.
a way to avoid admitting that Superman activated the Miracle Machine after being confronted by Rox Ogama.
I have never denied that whatsoever. All I have done is ask you for proof that Superman used it offensively towards Rox, which you've yet to establish. I've also asked for evidence that he activated it twice, which you haven't provided. Pretending I ever avoided "admitting" Superman is the one who activated it is just you trying to feel better about yourself.
I'm the one who pointed how the Marino didn't understand the first commenters loaded question
Except we posted multiple scans that had nothing to do with Marino's misunderstanding, and then you replied with a thread completely unrelated to those posts and tried to claim those were the ones Marino redacted.
Which is definitely multiversal power.
Sure would be nice if you had evidence or something. Stopping someone from striking a hammer is not a multiversal feat.
Not a valid argument.
You literally conceded to this argument earlier in your comment.
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