CW: White Canary & Ra's al Ghul vs Emiko Queen & Dante

• R1: Unarmed H2H.
• R2: Random encounter, Standard Gear.
• Basic Knowledge.
• Loose Morals.
• Winner by KO/Incap.
• Who wins?

The 2 best fighters in the Arrowverse vs someone Oliver mid-diffed and a guy with 1 feat? Backing Team 1.

@anthp2000: To be fair, he also has one feat:

@bladeoffury: Yeah but like, we know enough about him (a literal celestial God) to back it up. In all these shows, street level fights can often be inconsistent for the sake of the plot (and it's Arrow, so it happens extra often). Or it could be just your random bad day for Oliver. We don't even know anything about Dante's training or why he'd be good enough to match elite fighters from the League of Assassins.

It's all too little to compare to fighters as established as Team 1 IMO. Besides, Ra's can easily replicate that fight regardless, and Sara is better than Emiko, no real contest.

Team 1. Dante stalemated or had the upper hand against a holding back Oliver but has no other feats beyond that. Emiko is fodder to Ra's or Sara considering how Oliver easily tooled her in their latest fight without even striking her.

Team 1 10/10.

@breakofdawn: I don’t know about Oliver “tooling” her, but yeah, he wasn’t very aggressive and did pretty decent for not doing much.

Team 1 stomps

@stormdriven: I mean he didn't aim a single hit at her and simply tried to hold her off when she was enraged and had a weapon. The moment he got even slightly serious, he had her on the floor with a knife to her throat. She's never been shown to be anywhere near his level.

Dante is the best fighter in the arrowverse and Emiko isn’t far behind. Team 2 easily takes R1. Sara was beat by laurel, either Emiko or Dante would destroy her, and Ra’s simply isn’t beating either of them. Oliver has far surpassed Ras. Emiko is close to Oliver and Dante is even better than Oliver. Dante had the upper hand the entire fight against Oliver and Emiko was almost on par, albeit on the losing end, with current Oliver who would destroy Ras.

R2 is even easier for Dante and Emiko. They both have long range gear. Sara is a huge weak link here. Even if they get close it won’t matter. Team 2 is better in every way. It’s a shame Dante never got more feats but his one feat that he did get puts him way out of Sara’s league as well as above Ras, who would get beat by current Oliver every time. Not to mention he carries around guns with him. Sara and Ra’s have no answer for the long range capability both people on Team 2 have and have no answer for the superior skill team 2 has.

Team 2 10/10.

@anthp2000: Sara would get destroyed by Emiko. She couldn’t even beat Laurel. And Oliver wanted to beat Emiko in their latest fight and he barely won. Emiko also fought on par with Diaz who is better than Sara.

@breakofdawn: I’m sorry, Oliver was holding back against Dante, one of the most dangerous terrorists on earth? Seems legit. Dante was beating him fair and square.

Oliver has far surpassed Ras. Dante would beat Ras even easier. And Sara is nowhere near anyone in this match. She’s Merlyn tier. She literally lost to laurel.

@vacanus:

I’m sorry, Oliver was holding back against Dante, one of the most dangerous terrorists on earth? Seems legit.

Because it's not like Oliver doesn't try to kill any of his opponents, is it? In the fight his arrows are literally aimed at Dante's shoulders, and you're trying to claim he was bloodlusted?

And for the record, Oliver is pretty notorious for jobbing during his first encounter with a skilled opponent. Hell, in season 4 he got absolutely tooled by Anarky but then stomped him in season 5's premiere. Same with most of the Arrowverse villains he faces. Using one feat from a holding back Oliver is hardly equatable to Ra's Al Ghul or Sara's multiple high end feats.

Dante was beating him fair and square.

They were fighting evenly. He flipped Dante over his shoulder, Dante flipped him in turn, then both were standing and ready to continue before Lyra interfered.

Oliver has far surpassed Ras.

No he hasn't. He might be above Ra's, but not by a big margin. Damien Darkh's parity with season 4 Oliver proves that. He's more skilled certainly, but not by a massive margin.

Dante would beat Ras even easier.

Based off his one feat of fighting evenly with a holding back Oliver? Right.

And Sara is nowhere near anyone in this match. She’s Merlyn tier.

Good lord, this lowballing. She beat Damien, and pretty handily at that. She's easily Oliver tier if not above him.

She literally lost to laurel.

And Dante was too slow to react to an arrow when he turned to face Emiko after she shot him in the shoulder. Nice lowballing, great debating. Arrow's skill hierarchy has about as much consistency as a reality TV show...and you're seriously using one low end feat against a plethora of others which include beating Damien Darkh not once but twice, beating Merlyn while pre-prime, fighting evenly with a holding back Oliver (no different than Dante's feat, actually), etc?

LMAO at Dante being the best fighter in the Arrowverse. He literally has one feat against a holding back Oliver which many many characters have replicated. He's definitely not the most skilled; Oliver, Sara, Ra's and Damien are all more skilled than him.

@breakofdawn: Sure, but she also landed some solid hits on him. Now granted, I don’t think she can beat Oliver at all and she really shouldn’t be that much of an issue were he to fight seriously, all I’m saying is he didn’t really tool her in that fight.

@breakofdawn: He was trying to shoot Dante and beat him. The fight ended with him on the floor. Oliver lost. Lmao.

Oliver has surpassed Ras by a noticeable margin. And Darhk wasn’t equal with him lmao. He was equal with him when he had his advanced physicals that allowed him to effortlessly lift humans 4 feet off the ground, snap arrows, and dent metal poles. Watch 4x15, Oliver beat Darhk in 5 seconds without his physicals.

I’m sorry. Did you just say Sara>Oliver LMFAO? Oliver destroyed Sara twice. She literally just lost to laurel and barely beat Merlyn. I’m not even humoring that claim any further. “Fighting evenly with a holding back Oliver.” Ah yes. You mean like the first time when oliver beat her with literally 2 moves? Or the second time after he was tired from fighting 3 people, wasn’t bloodlusted, and was still beating Sara? Yes totally even.

Dante beat Oliver fair and square. Stop saying he didn’t. You’re incorrect. Sara barely beat Merlyn who Oliver beat in 20 seconds. Oliver kicked Sara’s ass. She lost to laurel.

Darhk? More skilled than Dante? Omfg lmao. I can’t.

Dante didn’t react to emiko’s arrows because he didn’t expect her to be against him. He easily reacted to every arrow Oliver shot at him and then was beating him until Lyla interfered. Not to mention the fact that Dante trainer Emiko who is almost as skilled as Oliver, which in itself is a feat.

If you actually think Sara and Damien are better than Oliver... that’s laughable. Oliver has literally destroyed both of them. Especially without darhk’s magic. Oh and PS. Darhk beat Sara twice without his magic. Oliver beat Merlyn 3x faster than Sara did and he was never touched... oh, and even Diggle beat laurel. You’re overrating Sara. She’s a non factor here.

As for Ras, Oliver would kick his ass in a H2H fight currently. He has way better feats now than he did last time they fought. Dante was beating him. Dante would beat Ras. Sara is not beating any of these 2 people who are more skilled than her.

“Sara is better than Oliver.” Thank you for the laugh.

PS: “Oliver was holding back against dante” is quite literally the worst argument I’ve ever heard. Zero validity. Zero logic. Zero proof. If that’s the best you can do to justify your argument, we really don’t need to continue this.

@vacanus:

The fight between Dante and Oliver ended with both of them standing

Oliver's done nothing to suggest he's improved significantly since fighting Ra's-he's had no major upgrades like his League training. Getting more feats isn't the same as an actual boost to say he's somehow on another level than Ra's

When did Ollie destroy Sara twice? They fought twice: once where Ollie fended her off (and where Diggle/Sara/Thea were conveniently disappearing to make room for each other to have a turn fighting Ollie) and then once where they had a prolonged bout-where neither had an advantage.

And you're really still arguing that Laurel>Sara, Darhk, Merlyn?

@arcus1: Dante still had the upper hand for basically the entire fight. Oliver got one hit in. Oliver had every conceivable advantage. Gear. Element of surprise. He still couldn’t win. Dante literally had the upper hand. Dante was preparing to throw a knife at him.

He hasn’t improved? He fought Diggle, Thea, and Sara at the same time. He destroyed Talia al Ghul in 5 seconds. He beat a dominator when previously he had struggled against a Mirakuru soldier. He beat Malcolm in 20 seconds. He beat Darhk, who was a contender for Ras in about 10 seconds without his magic. He was so skilled that when Barry received his magic he was able to fight evenly with oliver in a fist fight. He even reacted to, and flipped Oliver, who was running full speed at him. And for a direct comparison? Compare his fight against Derek Sampson in S5 to his fight against Sampson in S7.

Am I arguing that? Yes. I value feats. I don’t opinions like “Sara wasn’t trying”. Sara obviously wanted to stop laurel. She lost. You cannot ignore a feat just because you don’t like it. And truthfully? It makes sense. Diggle beat laurel, and Diggle has also done well against Diaz who is way better than Malcolm. Malcolm and Darhk are nowhere near top tier. Oliver has destroyed both of them. Darhk only won with his enhanced physicals. Sara lost to him once even without his enhanced physicals.

Oliver literally beat sara in 2 moves in their first fight. She ran at him, swung her baton, Oliver blocked it and threw her. Their second fight, despite Oliver being tired and Sara being bloodlusted, Oliver still maintained the upper hand with a strike with his bow to her stomach and a punch to the face right at the end. This was right after he just managed to hold off Diggle, beat Thea, and beat Sara. So yes, he is way better than Sara who struggled to beat Malcolm Merlyn.

The only way to compare characters is with feats. To ignore all of these feats would be ridiculous. No matter how dumb you think they are, they are what happened. You can’t say “Oliver wasn’t trying against Dante” (Ik you didn’t but the other guy was) or “Sara wasn’t trying against laurel” when that was never shown, stated, or even hinted at. Sara wanted to win. She lost. Laurel wasn’t trying to kill her either. She could have. She didn’t.

And as for Dante vs Oliver? Dante trained emiko who is about as skilled as Oliver. He also undeniably maintained the upper hand against Oliver. Did he win? No. Was he winning? Yes. If a fight ends with someone throwing you to the ground and preparing to throw a knife at you, that is being on the losing end of a fight.

I don’t mean to sound douchey btw. I like debating with you, you give good arguments :p I just get tilted when people ignore feats. I mean the other guy literally said Oliver didn’t try against Dante... the man that even Diaz was afraid to cross. Sick logic.

@vacanus:

Are you saying Ollie can't dodge a thrown knife?. He was on his feat, ready to continue fighting. You're acting like the fight was over, when it very clearly wasn't.

He never beat a Dominator-he staggered one and Diggle shot it in the eye to put it down. This is what happens when Ollie tries to straight up beat a Dominator h2h

Come on-the "fight" between Barry and Ollie when they were under the influence of fear gas was not intended to be a legit fight. And Barry straight up said that the reason he was able to react to Ollie rushing at him was because of Ollie's inexperience with his speed

Beating Talia means nothing. He could already beat Nyssa, who beat Talia, before even training with the League. Ollie's League training allowed him to beat Merlyn, that does nothing to show significant improvement after his League upgrade.

To say that Ollie would destroy Ra's now, you would need actual evidence that Ollie has significantly changed in skill level from his post S3 self (considering Ra's beat him unarmed in the S3 finale).

Present Darhk sucked as a fighter without his magic because he needed the magic to maintain his physicals, something that wasn't a problem for him in the past when Sara encountered him. In Legends S3, Darhk even referred to his past self as being in his prime when Nora encountered him in the past. But if you want, Sara also beat Darhk with his magic

Even Ollie never beat Darhk with his magic that easily

And for comparison to show that past Darhk is at least comparable to present Darhk with magic

In regards to Sampson, Ollie did better against Sampson in S7 by virtue of being significantly more brutal, and by knowing Sampson's capabilities (compared to when he first encountered him and didn't know what he was capable of). He still beat Sampson in S5, had him in a hold where he could have broken his joints like he did in S7, he just went for the tendons instead.

Knocking someone away isn't the same as beating them. Sara wasn't down or anything. In that fight, Diggle straight up vanishes when Thea comes in to fight Ollie (and Thea had apparently just been standing around waiting to enter the fight), so us not seeing Sara come back to attack Ollie isn't an indication that she was somehow down for the count (especially since we later see Diggle, Thea, and Sara moving to attack Flash, after that fight, meaning that they put Ollie down and moved on to attack Flash)

As for the second fight, Sara landed hits as well

As for the final hit, it wasn't Ollie tagging her. She blocked the hit and they both moved backwards from the impact

Now, overall I do think Ollie is better than Sara in cqc, but acting like Sara's a bottom tier fighter is not accurate

Let's look at Laurel and Dinah. Based solely on your interpretation of the recent fight, Laurel should be way better than Dinah, right? She knocked Dinah away in a couple seconds, Dinah should be absolute trash compared to her. Is that consistent with how they've been portrayed?

Look at both of their fights with Silencer

Dinah did just as well against Silencer as Laurel, arguably better. That was just this season too.

Or you can look at their fights in S6, where they each took wins against each other and were overall portrayed as close rivals. Laurel had the upper hand in their earlier fights, but in later fights Dinah had the upper hand

Do you honestly think the writers now think Dinah is fodder compared to Laurel? Where is the reason behind this sudden, out of nowhere change?

Feats are important, sure, but you have to consider context and plot as well. Sometimes things happen that are inconsistent with overall portrayal of characters to serve the plot.

Saying that Laurel is suddenly >>>>>>> Dinah is very clearly inconsistent with how they've been portrayed. Saying that Laurel>>Sara, Darhk, Merlyn, etc. is also inconsistent, and from a story perspective, does it really make sense?

Also worth noting that, according to the fight coordinator for Arrow, the S4 Ollie vs Merlyn fight was originally supposed to be much longer, but it got cut for time. Considering it was honestly a trash fight where Merlyn just gave up, that makes sense.

@vacanus:

He was trying to shoot Dante and beat him. The fight ended with him on the floor.

No, it ended with both of them standing up moments later with Dante ready to throw a knife - which Oliver could easily react to considering his ability to react to arrows and knives in this season.

Oliver lost. Lmao.

He didn't lose the fight. You don't lose a fight if it's inconclusive.

Oliver has surpassed Ras by a noticeable margin.

No proof of this. No in-universe statements, no events where his skill has improved, nothing.

And Darhk wasn’t equal with him lmao. He was equal with him when he had his advanced physicals that allowed him to effortlessly lift humans 4 feet off the ground, snap arrows, and dent metal poles.

When he outmanoeuvred Oliver numerous times during their fight in the season 4 finale and Ra's already viewing him a very real threat suggest otherwise.

Watch 4x15, Oliver beat Darhk in 5 seconds without his physicals.

Because he was fighting a past-prime fighter who was well out of practice.

I’m sorry. Did you just say Sara>Oliver LMFAO? Oliver destroyed Sara twice.

He beat her once, and he couldn't put her down, only push her away while she had to account for Diggle and Thea which obviously would impact her effectiveness.

She literally just lost to laurel

Which is inconsistent with literally every other feat she has.

and barely beat Merlyn.

While pre-prime, but sure.

I’m not even humoring that claim any further. “Fighting evenly with a holding back Oliver.” Ah yes. You mean like the first time when oliver beat her with literally 2 moves?

This is what happens when they 1v1.

Or the second time after he was tired from fighting 3 people, wasn’t bloodlusted, and was still beating Sara? Yes totally even.

*Sigh* He wasn't beating her.

Dante beat Oliver fair and square. Stop saying he didn’t. You’re incorrect.

He held the upper hand, sure. Again, Oliver frequently loses to opponents in his first encounter with them. I can point to multiple situations where this has occurred such as against Anarky, when he struggled with Danny Brick, and so on.

Sara barely beat Merlyn

Oh for Christ's sake. Can you do literally anything other than lowball? You're literally using a feat from season 2 Sara - who was pretty handily beaten by Damien Darkh in a fight - to argue that the current Sara - who pretty handily beat Damien - is barely above Malcolm Merlyn tier? Jesus Christ.

who Oliver beat in 20 seconds.

In a fight that was meant to be much longer but was cut due to time restraints.

Oliver kicked Sara’s ass.

He really didn't. He knocked away then stalemated a pre-prime Sara when he was much closer to his prime than she was. The level she's at right now, she could probably take a minority against him (his only noticeable advantage now is in physicals).

She lost to laurel.

Again, in one of the most inconsistent superhero fight shows in the history of TV. One low end feat doesn't justify ignoring her far more consistent high end feats.

Darhk? More skilled than Dante? Omfg lmao. I can’t.

What on earth are you talking about? I said Ra's is more skilled than Dante, not Damien. Keep up.

Dante didn’t react to emiko’s arrows because he didn’t expect her to be against him. He easily reacted to every arrow Oliver shot at him and then was beating him until Lyla interfered. Not to mention the fact that Dante trainer Emiko who is almost as skilled as Oliver, which in itself is a feat.

And Sara has handily beaten the likes of Damien, who is >>> Black Siren. Again, it's a single low showing. Hell, it's entirely possible Sara was holding back since she's fighting someone who's the splitting image of her sister.

If you actually think Sara and Damien are better than Oliver... that’s laughable.

Can you read, or is it an inability to understand what "parity" means that's a problem for you? I've said Sara is arguably more skilled than Oliver, not that she'd win in a fight. He still has a massive advantage in physicals; it's only technical skill between the two that's very close.

Oliver has literally destroyed both of them. Especially without darhk’s magic.

So he beat a pre-prime Sara and a Damien who was pretty much stunned by his suddenly losing his magic - thus not in a fighting state of mind - out of practice and well past his prime. Great feats, they clearly show Dante's infinite superiority.

Oh and PS. Darhk beat Sara twice without his magic.

Pre-prime again, or does that term escape your understanding?

Oliver beat Merlyn 3x faster than Sara did

Already addressed this.

and he was never touched...

Again, already addressed this.

oh, and even Diggle beat laurel.

You're literally proving my point. If Diggle can beat Laurel, then she's sure as hell not consistently able to beat Sara.

You’re overrating Sara. She’s a non factor here.

Then you know as little about the character as I suspected.

As for Ras, Oliver would kick his ass in a H2H fight currently. He has way better feats now than he did last time they fought.

And what are these feats? When he was losing to Brick and Sampson? When he struggled with the former during their 1v1 in season 4? When he struggled with Prometheus who was trained by a master who lost to Nyssa? Please, do point me to these feats that surpass Ra's skill level.

Dante was beating him.

Yes, he was. There was nothing to indicate that Oliver wouldn't have beaten him in the long run, though.

Dante would beat Ras. Sara is not beating any of these 2 people who are more skilled than her.

Except they're not.

“Sara is better than Oliver.” Thank you for the laugh.

PS: “Oliver was holding back against dante” is quite literally the worst argument I’ve ever heard. Zero validity. Zero logic. Zero proof. If that’s the best you can do to justify your argument, we really don’t need to continue this.

He holds back against everyone. Here, let me help you out.

Exhibit A.

Exhibit B.

And exhibit C. I can keep going if you'd prefer, but you're literally ignoring proof that Oliver only ever kills as a last resort. He said as much to Damien, he refused to kill Anarky, and he refused to kill Prometheus. Stop ignoring proof. Oliver wasn't "toying" with Dante and I never claimed that, but he was - as he always does - holding back whereas Dante was trying to kill him.

Team 1

@breakofdawn: sure, Oliver didn’t lose to Dante, but Dante still maintained the upper hand. That is still a feat.

Yes. Oliver has improved. Compare his feats against Sampson from S5 to S7.

Darhk still had his physicals in the finale. His magic just didn’t work on Oliver. And Oliver still won the fight, showing once again, better than Sara.

Oliver was still maintaining the upper hand in his fifth against Sara despite the fact that she was bloodlusted and he was clearly tired. He literally destroyed her in his first fight.

Sara has never handily beat Darhk. Darhk has beat her handily twice, Sara has yet to beat Darhk in a H2H fight. Darhk wasn’t out of practice when Oliver destroyed him, if he was out of practice, he wouldn’t have been able to beat Oliver with his physicals. Oliver simply beat him easily without his physicals.

Oliver crushed malcolm. Doesn’t matter if it was shortened. It happened.

If you think Dante is less skilled than Darhk, I give up on debating with you lmao. And has never been portrayed as skilled as Oliver. It doesn’t matter if you think it’s a lowball, she lost to laurel. That’s a fact.

Darhk didn’t beat Sara pre prime. that was after her LoA training, or does that escape your memory?

Oliver losing to Sampson and Brick at the same time is expected giving the fact that Sampson is enhanced and Brick was equal S3 Diggle who gave Oliver a fight.

And I’m claiming Diggle has better feats than Sara. Even he has done better against Oliver than Sara has. You overrate Sara lmao.

Yes cause obviously trying not to kill someone means holding back. You can try to beat someone without killing them. Dante wasn’t trying to kill oliver either. He had a plan for him. He wanted to beat him. Laurel didn’t want to kill Sara. You’re ignoring your own points lmao.

@vacanus:

Dhark beat Sara once in Legends when she was mentally off her game, their second fight was inconclusive and their third and forth were clean wins for Sara.

You need to stop spreading misinformation...

@arcus1: ofc Ollie can dodge a knife, but he was still at a disadvantage when the fight ended.

As for Ollie vs sara, I missed some of those hits from Sara, but Oliver was still tired and had easily beat her the last time. Sara was bloodlusted and going for a kill. I’m not saying Oliver can beat Sara with his eyes closed, but there’s a fairly decent gap between them. Her feats against laurel and Malcolm prove this. The fact that a non bloodlusted Oliver who was tired as hell could still go toe to toe with a bloodlusted Sara who wasn’t tired and was literally trying to kill him shows how much better he is. Not to mention that he literally beat her immediately in their first fight.

There was one dominator that Oliver put down H2H.

The fight vs Barry is still valid. It was a straight up fight and it was even. Just cause they were drugged doesn’t mean they weren’t fighting well.

It isn’t that he beat Talia. It’s that he beat Talia in 5 seconds.

Again, the Sampson feat shows Oliver has improved. It isn’t cause he was more brutal. He cut his tendons in s5 and lost a direct first fight. He straight up did better.

As for Darhk, he was still very skilled in combat, even without his magic. Also, Sara only beat Darhk in a sword fight, which is irrelevant because Darhk is only Merlyn level with swords. Remember what happened when Merlyn and Oliver had a sword fight? And that was PRIME DARHK who stalemated Merlyn in a sword fight. A Merlyn that Oliver destroyed. The only reason Darhk ever contended with Oliver was his enhanced strength. Sara never fought a magic Darhk H2H. She only fought him in a sword fight, no point in having enhanced strength if you can’t use it.

As for laurel, she only ever really lost to Dinah in 6x13 when she was tired and on the run, she usually had the upper hand. And by s7 she hadn’t been fighting as much so obviously she was more out of practice at the beginning of the season, but that being said, she and Dinah were decently close, but laurel as always been better.

As for Oliver vs merlyn, it doesn’t matter if it was intended to be longer. It wasn’t.

I’m certainly not saying Sara is a bottom tier. I just don’t think she’s a top tier. Even if Dante didn’t win, he was winning, and Lyla certainly helped Oliver.

As for Ras, again, I believe Ras would still firmly beat Oliver in a sword fight, but to assume that Oliver hasn’t gotten better H2H when he clearly has is ridiculous. He destroyed Anarky in 5x01, destroyed Sampson, and then was a dominator he fought. And the Barry fight absolutely accounts. Am I saying he would beat Ras with his hands tied behind his back? No. I think he would beat him about as easily as he could beat chase. (People seriously underestimate chase btw, Chase was way above Talia. And as for Emiko, Emiko straight up proves Dante is better than him. Emiko was able to make Oliver work for his victories in both fights. Dante is the one who got her to that point.

@vacanus:

Your definition of "beating" someone is still way off

Who says Ollie was so exhausted? You're acting like he'd been fighting for days or something. Sure, he had been fighting before that, but one of the people he was fighting was Sara-so she'd been fighting too.

Show me Ollie legitimately downing a Dominator h2h. Even then, that doesn't at all speak to his improvement in h2h post-League because he only fought Mirakuru soldiers pre-League training. Of course he's improved from S1/S2-that was a result of the training with the League (after which Ra's could still beat him h2h)

So you think Ollie can actually keep up with a bloodlusted, non-jobbing Barry?

Why does beating Talia indicate improvement from when he lost to Ra's? Talia is not a particularly impressive fighter

Present Darhk without his magic lost to a couple prisoners-he was clearly hindered without the magic enhancing his stats-logically his physicals were not up to par. That's why Ollie put him down so easily when he lost his magic. For the record, Sara also fought Darhk evenly when unarmed in mid-S2. As for Darhk vs Merlyn, their fight started with swords and then turned into a knife/unarmed fight.

If you want to say Laurel was out of practice at the start of S7, then when did she get back into practice? She hasn't been fighting much all season. That logic doesn't hold up at all. And again, by your logic, Laurel and Dinah were not even remotely close in the recent fight. If we're saying that Laurel>Sara, then Laurel>>>>>Dinah based on the last fight, they shouldn't be even remotely close. That's a huge change from how they've consistently been portrayed, and it has absolutely no basis (Dinah's been active while Laurel hasn't)

Of course Dante didn't win, there's no reason to even say he straight up won.

He did better against Anarky because in S5 he had looser morals than when he was trying to hold back in S4. Thea could beat Anarky in S4 (not consistently, but she did beat him even when not pit bloodlusted).

PIS happens, it should be acknowledged as such

Main focus here, I think, would be explaining the Laurel/Dinah dynamic. How is saying that Dinah is now absolute trash compared to Laurel (which is what your argument would say) not incredibly inconsistent? Where is it's basis in the story? That's the main question I think should be answered

Team 1 easily.

But Oliver > Sara, always has been.

Team 1.

Ra's can even solo.

@subline: Meh.

@arcus1: Sorry, would have responded sooner, studying for exams lol

Yes, Dante didn't "beat Oliver" but he was winning. The fact that he was winning + the fact that he trained Emiko who is clearly on Oliver's level puts him above Sara.

Oliver had to carry Wally for a few minutes while also holding all 3 incredibly skilled people. He had also just beat those 3 people, including Sara.

Ras didn't beat Oliver H2H, if you watch their plane fight, Oliver was winning and then was knocked down via plane turbulence and then Ras hit him with a canister and escaped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN2U2HyhYrE in this fight, Oliver can be seen fighting one dominator evenly, and then also fighting another one, which was then gone, and then he fired arrows at the other one who then went and knocked him off the roof. Only way he shot arrows at another one is if he either A. Fought on par with a dominator (who are easily superhuman tier +) or B. beat the one he was currently fighting, Even fighting on par with it alone is an incredible feat.

Oliver has kept up with a bloodlusted non-jobbing barry. Just cause it's PIS doesn't mean it doesn't count :P that's why Barry fought Oliver well. PIS is a bitch.

Talia fought Nyssa fairly well who was still kind of close to Oliver pre league. She was also barely below Malcolm in S4 who Oliver crushed. So assuming she is roughly Nyssa level, that means he beat someone who is Nyssa level in 5 seconds. Also, his feat of holding off Diggle, Sara, and Thea clearly shows he has improved. Sara had received training from the league for 2 years to the point that she was equal with Darhk who is slightly better than Merlyn. Diggle had improved so much that he even gave Oliver a BETTER fight than Merlyn. Thea was also almost as skilled as Merlyn. He essentially held off 3 people who are easily around Merlyn tier at the same time, one of whom (Diggle) is definitely superior to Merlyn and has trained with Oliver (so knows his fighting styles better than anyone) for 6 years.

The Darhk without magic example is fair, he did lose to the prisoners, but Oliver also put Darhk with his magic down a couple of times in H2H and Darhk had to rely on his magic, and that is something Sara was never able to do. She only beat him in a sword fight. Yes, Darhk vs Merlyn was an unarmed fight showing that prime Dahrk was only equal to Merlyn in terms of melee/knives. Sara never actually beat Darhk with his magic in a H2H fight. Oliver did multiple times. Not to mention his fights against Anarky totally show he has improved a decent amount, as well as his domination of Cupid in S5.

I didn't say Laurel>>>Dinah. I'm saying Dinah is clearly on a similar tier to Sara as well. And in their latest fight, Laurel beat her easily even with Sara's help. It makes much more sense than "oh they weren't trying to stop her from killing people".

Dante didn't straight up win but he was *winning* which is still something virtually no one has managed to do to Oliver in a fair fight since Ras.

His morals in S5 had nothing to do with his feat against Anarky. He stabbed and shot people with arrows all the time in S4. He simply just won easily. His biggest problem in S4 was inconsistency which could be chalked up to a 5 month break, but still, he was way better in S5. And his feat against Sampson also counts. He literally destroyed him in S7 despite already being injured. He was fighting no dirtier than he did in S5. And for another feat? He beat Bronze Tiger in about 3 seconds.

And again. I never said Dinah is way worse than Sara/Laurel. I would put Dinah right below everyone who is Sara level. Laurel has *usually, not always* beat her handily, but not to the point where it's easy.

@vacanus:

Ollie lost to Diggle/Sara/Thea, hence why those three were able to move to attack Barry

As for Ra's and Ollie

Nothing suggests that Ollie was somehow winning and that Ra's was only able to take an advantage because of turbulence....

Talia was clearly inferior to Nyssa, who was clearly inferior to Malcolm. Those fights weren't just "knock them down and escape wins," they were legitimate victories with clear winners. Talia is not somehow comparable to Malcolm or even Nyssa

If we're considering knocking someone down to be a win, then technically Darhk beat Merlyn in their swordfight and just gave him time to recover

But I still want to focus on this

In the Laurel vs Sara/Dinah fight, Laurel knocked Dinah away in a few seconds (while fighting Sara). By your logic, this would make Laurel way better than Dinah. If we're saying that Laurel>Sara, then Laurel has to be >>>Dinah. There's no way around that.

And that is flat out inconsistent with how they've always been portrayed (while Laurel had a couple clear wins in the beginning of S6, Dinah was her match or better in the end of S6, and they performed comparably against Silencer in S7-the most recent and thus most applicable way of comparing them).

Also

The whole point of labeling stuff as PIS is acknowledging that it's not applicable-that something really shouldn't have happened and shouldn't be counted. So yeah, PIS doesn't count, that's kinda the idea

Even then, in the fear gas scene, Ollie was barely using speed when we could see them fighting each other. It was not intended to suggest that Ollie's skills are somehow enough to legitimately keep up with Barry's full speed

@vacanus:

Forgot to reply to the Darhk thing earlier, but I Darhk was always a challenge if not an outright match for Ollie h2h when he had the magic to keep his stats up. He really wasn't that superhuman at all, especially considering the stuff CW peak humans can do. The metal pipe he bent by throwing Ollie into, for example, was hollow-you can tell by the way it bent-so it's not like he bent a solid metal beam. I wouldn't say his stats were too different from his Legends version, and Sara could match him unarmed there as well

Also, re: PIS

If we're not willing to admit that PIS and inconsistency happens and maybe shouldn't be taken at face value, then we're left with Sara fighting Overgirl for an extended period in h2h

Unclear how long it was going on, longer than the gif shows, here's the video for reference

Bump

I'd side with team 1. Emiko vs Sara would be one hell of a fight though.

The idea of Emiko being relevant here is laughable.

Team 1 slaughter.

Team 1

As great as Dante is, we only saw him in one feat. Oliver would have had a much better round 2 against him I think, too bad it didn't happen.

Emiko is a weak link now.

Team 2

@arcus1: Darhk was absolutely superhuman. He broke an arrow with two fingers without even trying and lifted donna about 5 feat over his head with one hand. Not to mention in LoT once he got his magic he LITERALLY kicked a guy across a room. And as I said, Sara never matched magic Darhk H2H, only in a sword fight which is irrelevant because Darhk is equal to Merlyn in a sword fight. Look at how much easier Oliver beat Merlyn with swords than Sara vs Darhk who was equal to Malcolm.

Sara lasting against Overgirl isn't PIS. She used her skill to try and evade her and then immediately lost once Overgirl hit her. Martial arts work like that. Oliver could do the same thing. Look at his fights vs Barry.

Team 1. Ra's >>> Dante > Sara > Emiko

Its impressive how a guy with only 1 feat has become one of the best fighters from CW. Either way team 1 wins.emiko is a weak link