Current Thor and Wanda vs Jean and Rachel

Base Thor and Wanda

Jean and Rachel

Current Base Thor like in the current Avengers comics run.

R1: In-Character

(No Cosmic Fire/Pink Form etc)

R2: Bloodlusted

Thor can go Warrior’s Madness and use his Genetic Cosmic Fire.

Jean can go Pink Form.

Who takes this?

No telepathic goofy compares to Thor unleashing the wrath of Odin's spirit through his hammer!

Round one to Jean and Rachel. Scarlet Witch is the most powerful on the field bar none but cannot deal with this telepathy. Thor with morals on and in character holds back too much. Round 2 is a different story thanks to Thor going all out

Now that I saw that Trials of Magneto feat, I don't see why team one doesn't clear. Those Kajuu were a manifestation of Wanda's guilt, and people like Jean and Rachel flat out couldn't get a hold of them.

As of right now, Round 1 goes to the telepaths. Their tk is more than powerful enough to block casual attacks.

Round Two goes to Team One based around Warrior Madness Thor’s power output and difficulty to get a grasp on his mind and Wanda providing back up for Thor, since he will be too much of a problem for anyone to focus on Wanda, who will take advantage of the situation with ease.

The thing is, that doesn't really apply to a battle. The Kaiju stuff were amazing feats but Wanda didn't consciously create the Kaiju and could not control them, so it's not like she would be able to summon them at will to fight for her. (unless they show her able to do so in the future). This is a similar case to to Jean's feats in Phoenix Resurrection. She was subconsciously creating psychic phenomena all over. She created psychic projections in different parts of the globe that were taking on teams of X-Men. She created psychic fire in a lake that killed all the fish. She created a psychic flare on the moon. Rachel Summers just being in proximity to one of the psychic phenomena Jean created got messed up and was taken out of the event and confined to the infirmary. Then Cable with Cerebro got his brain and Cerebro fried just by making contact with Jean. Yet you won't really see these being brought up in battle threads because these aren't combat applicable. Despite how powerful she comes off from those feats, she didnt do any of that consciously and so we can't just say she's gonna do that in a fight. IMO there are better and actual arguments for Wanda than Trial of Magneto. Feats like those in Phoenix Resurrection and Trial of Magneto show potent their powers are and are useful for discussing how great the characters are overall, but they don't really give us something that could actually be brought to a fight which is what is needed for these types of battle threads

@marvelfan1992:

I'm not implying that she's going to resummon Kajuu to fight off either telepath, but I'm pointing out that Wanda's grief and power effectively rendered the two most potent telepaths useless on the battlefield. That is necessary to take in because those creatures were a direct manifestation of Wanda(their thoughts were), and therefore that is a feat applicable to Wanda's defenses. And while, typically, it is harder to control people/things when they are angry, this was Rachel trying to shut them down, which is a completely different concept than mind control. Logic would say that she should have been able to TP the Kajuu, but she couldn't due to Wanda's grief personifying them, and Rachel states that she cannot get a psychic hold. What makes this better is that she did this unconsciously, as you pointed out, which allows us to credit this feat to Wanda's mental defenses being capable of holding high-tier telepaths off to beat them in the physical realm. I'm not saying that she'll beat them mentally, but she has the feats to contend long enough to conquer them in the physical realm.

Lastly, Jeans psychic phenomena actually work for me because I never argued for Wanda summoning Kajuu. I argued it as part of her mental defenses. But it's nice to see that her telepathy was incredibly powerful and that she was beating other telepaths, similar to Wanda's magic being good enough to prevent Rachel and Jean.

They could not TP them because they were beasts with incomprehensible thoughts and were hellbent on destruction, not because Wanda shielded their minds or gave them mental defenses. This does not really apply to Wanda's own mental defenses unfortunately.

@marvelfan1992: They were constructs of Wanda's grief. They didn't just get incomprehensible thoughts out of the blue, it was directly implied that Wandas emotions were driving their rampage. We have actually seen telepaths like Emma not getting a hold of Wanda's mind when she's dealing with Trauma before. Thats like saying Jean's psychic phenomena don't count towards her telepathy because the effects are detached from her. Also, we have literally seen Jean take down an entire mob of angry people with TP(X-men Disassembled) and yet she can't because the Kajuu were angry? Thats makes zero sense.:

@bigbaby: My point is they were basically mindless beasts simply driven by Wanda's eratic emotions. Such creatures are known to be difficult for telepathy. Off the top of my head, Jean was unable to TP the Brood in Hickman's X-Men run because "their thoughts are manic--madness--driven by the fear of their queens". Wanda herself is not a mindless beast driven by rampaging emotions so that kind of "protection" from TP doesn't apply to Wanda herself. And if I recall correctly, she has worked those feelings out by the end of Trial of Magneto. The Kaijus count for Wanda's magic sure, but the aspect of them not being able to be TP'd doesn't apply to Wanda because of the context of them not being able to get TP'd 🙂

@marvelfan1992: I get what you mean by being mindless, and that's what I thought initially too, but Rachel on panel implies that they have thoughts, but the only issue is that she cannot access them:

Gallery

If they did not have minds, she would have said it would be impossible to breach their mindscape, like other telepaths have admitted when facing creatures that can't be beaten via telepathy(like Mindlessones).

The feelings were worked out in the end, but it does not diminish that angry Wanda can fight off their TP, and has forms of telepathy defense(evidently shown when her guilts and thoughts compartmentalized into the Kajuu). Even at the end of TOM, the Kajuu vanished when Wanda reunited herself from all points of time, inferring that they were linked to her. We also know that psychic assaults do not depend on will, and yet it was implied that those defenses could not be breached. Like for example, would Jean and Rachel be able to maintain concentration on their TP if Wanda let loose like this:

@bigbaby: Sorry I did not mean mindless literally. I meant more like the example with the Brood I mentioned. Jean didn't say they were mindless, in fact she mentions their thoughts. The Kaiju situation is similar to this.

I'm not here to debate the winner of this fight or how Wanda will fare against TP. I'm only here to point out that the x-men being unable to TP the Kaijus has no correlation with Wanda's own mental defenses and I believe I've shown that. Besides, even if I go with what you're saying, those feelings of Wanda that were driving the Kaiju and supposedly giving them the protection from TP are no longer present in Wanda. ToM was a great story in her redemption and overcoming her deep negative feelings, and as such whatever protection from TP you believe the Wanda has by virtue of the Kaiju would no longer be there. The other stuff you mention towards the end beyond what I wanted to address and I'll not be getting into it :)

@marvelfan1992:

1)Eh..ok. I still don't get how feelings relate to psychic defenses though. Yea, Wanda resolved her feelings but it was a psychic assault that failed against Wanda, not a form of mental manipulation which can be resisted through will, anger, etc.

2)Ok. Fair enough.

100%

Mental fortitude is determined by how strong one's psyche is; and every emotion and feeling is a byproduct of the psyche (i.e. the totality of human mind).

Therefore, the mere fact that a miniscule part of Wanda's psyche (her feeling of guilt and grief) accidentally completely rendered both Jean and Rachel useless really tells you all you need to know.

Gallery

Both rounds go to Wanda and Thor, by a landslide. If your greatest asset is useless, then there is no notable way you can win.

I'm trying to figure out how inorganic, magical Kaiju constructs that were created subconsciously by Wanda and uncontrollable by her, who were immune to telepathy, correlates to Wanda's own psychic defences...? Especially considering they were created by Wanda's feelings of guilt, which she no longer has, and is therefore no longer applicable especially in a combat scenario.

By this logic, Wanda's mind should be completely immune to telepathy. Which we know is not the case as evidenced by the many occasions where her mind has been affected by telepathy to varying degrees and via different applications. One recent instance that involves a lot of context and assumption does not automatically negate all previous instances. Even if this one recent instance demonstrated that Wanda's mind is immune to telepathy, we don't just dismiss all previous instances proving otherwise. Consistency is a thing.

Wanda and thor stomps

Bump

Bump

Ask the hulk

In round 2 Wanda would just toss them in space

@kgb725: and they would fly back???

Bump

Speaking of tossing...

And this was the much weaker Teen Jean.

R1 - Team 1 Curbstomps

R2 - Thor Carries

@geekryan: Offguard Wanda mid-sentence before Jean lost her cool, and she got put in her place anyways with one flick of Wanda's wrist lol. Says a lot when you realize she couldn't even breach Wanda's mental defenses via thought when her tk was immobilized:

@bigbaby: You know, it’s very telling that you feel the need to comment whenever someone says something against Wanda. I didn’t even mention Wanda.

@bigbaby: Also, Jean was able to read her mind. And she was distraught. And a much weaker version of adult Jean who was still able to blast Thor away twice. She attacked too fast for Wanda to react to, and then got immobilized by Wanda right after she blasted Thor. Funny how context works in many ways huh?

Could you expound more on the trouble the telepaths would have with TP-ing Warrior's Madness Thor?

Also, I doubt either of the Grey's TK would be enough to protect them from Thor's attacks. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though. I believe their only shot in R1 is TP, which is definitely a guaranteed win for them.

Rachel has already contended against Thor:

@geekryan:

Also, Jean was able to read her mind. And she was distraught.

Jean was distraught after reading her mind, not before. Funny how you're purposely trying to misconstrue the sequence of events. Not that it matters anyways because we have already seen telepaths like Emma let loose with TP when in distress, so why didn't Jean do the same against Wanda? Cuz she knew she couldn't overcome Wanda's active defenses.

And a much weaker version of adult Jean who was still able to blast Thor away twice. She attacked too fast for Wanda to react to, and then got immobilized by Wanda right after she blasted Thor. Funny how context works in many ways huh?

So teen Jean moves faster than Thor by your logic? Lol.

She attacked a Thor and Wanda that were not willing to fight her, and she tk'd them when they were trying to calm her. Its ironic how people who say they read the comic still don't understand the components of said fight. Obviously, you don't because you never even said that.

But you want context? Wanda had such high-tier durability that she tanked a morals off Teen Jean's attack. Really shows who had the better showing between the two.

You know, it’s very telling that you feel the need to comment whenever someone says something against Wanda. I didn’t even mention Wanda.

You just contradicted yourself by admitting that I comment when people mention Wanda, which you indirectly did. Thanks for saving me the work:

the need to comment whenever someone says something against Wanda.

You know it's very telling that other people have to point out a context in a fight because you can't do it yourself.

It goes without saying that the Avengers have the power to simply overwhelm the Greys. But like most threads involving Telepaths TP is their saving grace and neither Thor or Wanda have the resistance to deal with a telepath on Jean's caliber.

@pyrofn: agreed

@geekryan: With all due respect Geek... one showing? I'm sure you have more, but I don't know Rachel or Jean's telekinesis to consistently be anywhere near the level needed to be defensively competent at blocking Thor's strikes. At most and with my current knowledge, I could concede that they could block one, maybe two, hits from Thor. After that it's ggs.

Rachel didn't even beat him in that scan. All she did was toss him, which is good, but that nowhere near puts her TK at his level. Wanda tossed a truck at Thor, but we don't apply the same logic there because it's outright irrational to suggest an attack == a defeat/contention, especially when it didn't even harm him. She made him struggle, but writer's intent was that Thor would have gotten the upper hand if Namor hadn't intervened.

Two showings from two different issues depicting the fight. One from Wolverine and the X-Men, and the other from Avengers.

Rachel's TK has feats against Black Cloak, who was strong enough to beat a bloodlusted Gladiator. She has also restrained and KO'd Terrax. She KO'd and restrained Wendigos, who were giving Colossus and Sasquatch a hard time. Sasquatch has fought Hulk. She caught and briefly held the city of Providence after it was dropped from the sky. Also uses TK on a molecular level.

Jean's TK has contended against Apocalypse, lifted Hulk, lifted Juggernaut (multiple times), restrained Thing, blocked a punch from Black Bolt, blocked a punch from Abomination (Hulk-level opponent), blocked attacks from Rachel as well.

She also threw a space station into space and sent Iceman into orbit. Also capable of molecular-level TK.

Their TK defences would eventually get overwhelmed by Thor, and they likely wouldn't harm him much with it, but they would shut down his mind before that happens.

RD 1 Jean and Rachel

RD is a toss up

We don’t know what writers intent was. Rachel’s job was to find Hope. Not fight Thor. She clearly did not flinch from his strike, so it’s clear his strike wasn’t enough to even affect her tk shield. I don’t think a full-powered Thor is losing at all, but that instance does not in any way display that Thor had an upper hand in that confrontation.

It only displays Rachel can casually defend herself from a hammer strike from Thor and blast him away.

It’s not often Jean and Rachel come across bruisers, but when they do, it’s shown they can at the very least defend themselves for a time.

A teenage Jean Grey has launched Thor away twice before Thor can react. Thor was not harmed or trying to attack Teen Jean, but she did manage to launch him away with ease.

After absorbing a bunch non-psychics (and maybe one low tier psi), a teenage Jean using her new psi drain for the first time ever clashed evenly with Gladiator. Though it was an ability clearly amping Jean, she was only using it for the first time, so she would not know how to capitalize off of it as well as she later would against Galactus. And Adult Jean would be powerful enough to have no need for it to clash with Gladiator if a bunch of non-psychics and a low tier psychic can strengthen her to clash with Gladiator to a stalemate while he is bloodlusted and confident he can kill a teenager.

Jean can casually protect herself and Rachel from Black Bolt who has clashed with Gladiator in the past, despite the man being closer to Rachel’s position than Jean was.

And weaker variants of Jean Grey without Phoenix have feats against bricks who have clashed with the Savage Hulk in the past. Mind you not defeated per se, but fought toe-to-toe for a time.

As for Rachel, she has defeated two monsters who scale to a brick that has clashed with the Hulk in the past.

She has defeated to Death Commandoes who have give Gladiator trouble, once even while Gladiator was bloodlusted.

So, Jean and Rachel can debatably handle Thor in a casual fight, but not a fight where he is giving everything he has and will destroy the planet to do it. The bigger concern is whether telepathy will affect Thor before he wears them both down. I’m a casual encounter, yes. In Warrior Madness where he is tanking Mind Gem Moondragon’s psi-blasts, probably not.

So, they are decently powerful enough. So, yes @geekryan, Rachel did block and blast Thor away. no, that is not proof she can handle him when he is ready to bust planets. We cans debate that Thor has never busted a planet before in Warrior Madness mode, but he has with morals on. And Thor fought Drax empowered by the Power Stone in Warrior Madness, so I don’t doubt that without telepathy to affect Thor, the women probably won’t be able to last in a fight.

@pyrofn: I wasn’t referring to Warrior Madness Thor btw, just base Thor. I agree the former version would be too much.

@geekryan said:

Alright, fair enough. You know a ton more than I do, so I'll take your word. I will however say that lifting Juggernaut is hardly impressive and I wouldn't consider Black Bolt that impressive physically. I don't know either to offensively use molecular TK.

@pyrofn: All great info. Thank you! However, I'm still inclined to give little credit to the feats where either matched Savage Hulk-level beings. It doesn't come off as consistent, even if they were eventually defeated. Their TK has been vastly inferior to that in the past.

If you and Geek both believe that Rachel or Jean can telekinetically defend against a base Thor, non-bloodlusted, long enough for them to TP him, then I really have no choice but to concede. Again, you guys know a ton more than I do so I'd take your word for it. Same goes for either being able to telekinetically defend against Savage Hulk, minus the TPing him part. At the current moment, I would disagree with that, from what I know, since it doesn't come off as consistent for me. I think either would be able to breach their telekinetic shields rather quickly.

@boutatakeanl: TP'ing Savage Hulk is unlikely to happen.

Most of Jean and Rachel's best TK feats came within the last 20 or so years.

For Jean, her TK feats against Apocalypse, Thor, Hulk, Juggernaut, Thing, Magneto, Black Bolt, Abomination, and Rachel makes her pretty consistent against high tiers.

For Rachel, her TK feats against Black Cloak, Terrax, Thor, Wendigos, Cassandra Nova, and Magneto also makes her pretty consistent against high tiers.

Just to clarify: Jean/Rachel can't necessarily cause serious harm to many of these guys, but they can at least shield from them for a bit of time, restrain them for a bit, ragdoll them, etc.

Alrighty then. I concede. Thanks geek!

...

Ah yes, Thor being able to fight Thanos 1v1 is absolutely consistent...........

How powerful is warrior madness thor defenses?

Round one goes to team one

Round two is 50/50 because they can all potentially kill each other so it depends on who strikes first.

Bump