To demonstrate with clarity, certainty and precision, the full extent of the Earth-rending power vested in the one known as Gog.
The Who
It's important to understand the nature of my character before delineating what he can do. In this discussion, I'll be representing a fully composite version of the two main incarnations of Gog — William Matthews and Gog I (or Third World Gog). There are multiple characters who've taken on the mantle of Gog or Magog and share similar abilities and/or character designs; howbeit, I'll focus on the aforementioned two.
William Matthews was originally a young boy from Kansas USA, some decades into the future. A catastrophic incident destroyed much of the state and claimed his parents, but Matthews himself was rescued by the Man of Steel. He then grew up in adoration of Superman under the false pretense that Superman was his savior, as it was unbeknownst to him the calamity was a direct result of Superman's actions and negligence; something Clark later confessed to himself. Thereupon which, Matthews' love morphed into a passionate, inextinguishable hatred. With his worldview shattered, William Matthews became an empty vessel for a group of primordial Gods known as The Quintessence, who gifted him with incomparable knowledge and power. Matthews, using his newfound abilities, took the mantle of Gog and made it his life's mission to travel through time endlessly and kill Superman as many times as possible.
Superman Secret Files '98/'04
Matthews' backstory in Geoff John's late 2000's JSA run was wildly different. In this retelling, he was an English missionary sent on a trip to African who stumbled on the shrine of Gog I. Gog I gave him his powers which subsequently drove him mad. This incarnation saw Matthews as an unintelligent rampaging beast, which I disliked. He didn't have a vendetta against just Superman, but rather was a perpetrator of general deicide, who proclaimed all metahumans to be "false gods". He slew legions of Gods and immortals across time.
Gog I was one of the last of the Old Gods from the Third World. He was blasted to Earth through the Bleed after the destruction of his home planet. He landed in the DRC and become entrapped in stone, after many years of which he solidified into a shrine and was worshiped as a God by locals. Gog I reawakened after absorbing the rest of his power back from Matthews, and eventually knighted a disciple, Daniel Reid as Magog. This didn't last long, as Reid betrayed him and blew off his head, then KC Superman took his still living head and embedded it on the Source Wall to ensure he would never return.
Until now...
「1.0 - Unquestionable // The Horrifying Power of Gog」
Gog's power is horrifying. Unquestionably horrifying. At least, relative to the echelon of power he operates in. To establish a baseline, let's take Superman. We all know Superman, right? The Big Blue Boyscout, who can bench press a planet for days, barely breaking a sweat, and shatter lunar surfaces with the shock-waves of missed punches? Gog's entire story arc—scratch that; literally his entire character, revolves around him killing Supermen (plural) at least a thousand times over. Effortlessly.
He is also fast enough to move FTE to Jay Garrick, who compared his speed to Wally West.
Justice Society of America ('07) #10
So Gog literally made sport of fodderizing multiple planetary FTL characters thousands of times over.
Now that we've established a baseline, let's discuss his potency in greater detail. First, his Power Staff. Gog's powers at large (including those residing in his staff) are channeled through to him by The Quintessence, the squad of all-powerful beings who granted Gog his immeasurable knowledge and power. The Quintessence includes Zeus, Highfather Izaya, Phantom Stranger, Ganthet and Shazam (The Wizard). According to Phantom Stranger, the combined power they all gave Gog surpassed all of their own.
Which is pretty insane considering that Highfather alone had a fight with Darkseid that straight up busted a planet, and he also gave Takion his powers. Takion is a teambuster in his own right seeing as he fought off Kyle Rayner, Captain Atom and Wally West at the same time (Takion#2). And Highfather is likely not even the strongest member of the Quintessence, which speaks volumes to Gog's level of power. Using the Power Staff, Gog can one-shot vaporize KC Superman to a smoldering crisp with ease.
Gog (Villains)
If you don't understand why this is maddeningly impressive, note that the heat and energy from Supernovas have even failed to replicate this against normal Superman, knocking him out at worst. Now obviously, Superman doesn't have anywhere near supernova level durability; that's not what I'm saying, or anything close. The scan literally disproves that. But I'm sure you would agree that someone who literally absorbs solar energy and can chill inside the Sun whenever he wants would have uncanny heat resistance, and a stronger version of him is pretty explicitly >roasted< in the panels above.
This isn't the only time Gog has burned Superman either. He cauterized his flesh in The Kingdom when he branded the Kryptonian hope symbol on his chest in mockery.
The only thing that can match Gog's power in absurdity is his speed. Rip Hunter of the Linear Men used a spatial machine to measure Gog's speed, and he clocked him when he was operating "in-between" nanoseconds, which if taken literally should mean a smaller timeframe than nanoseconds.
Notice how Hunter says he "has to be faster than him [Gog]" and then clicks a button on a wrist gauntlet before seemingly phasing out. He has to be faster than someone moving in-between nanoseconds, and then phases. Turns out, what Hunter did in this scene was later revealed to be the action phase-shifting in between attoseconds, becoming completely invisible, intangible and imperceptible as a result of this level of speed.
Here Hunter shifts himself and someone else in between attoseconds, allowing two characters to walk right through them, and not notice them at all. As Hunter states their presence is undetectable, which is shown here. And yet, when he used this procedure against Gog, Gog was able to see him and tag him just fine.
As you can see, Hunter clearly maintains the same transparent see-through appearance here that he does in the scan when he was inside the superstructure, showing that he is using the same form. To further corroborate this, the fact that he only activated this form after explicitly stating he needed to be faster than Gog when he literally just measured his speed to be less than nanoseconds makes all the sense in the world, knowing that phase-shifting in-between attoseconds is something he can do. Lastly, he is sneaking up on Gog here, Gog simply senses him and turns around and catches him faster than he can escape. The phase-shift procedure makes Hunter's presence undetectable, so it is irrefutable that he phase-shifted in between attoseconds against Gog because he clearly wanted to conceal his presence.
In other words, Gog has a legitimate attosecond level speed feat, which, needless to say, is EXTREMELY rare. But this isn't even his best speed feat, as within the same issue he literally reacted to a speedblitzing Kingdom Come Flash and tagged him with a blast faster than he could react.
The point I'm making here is that I realize most people would have automatically assumed that your character has the speed advantage. But even if that may be the case (which should be difficult to prove) a blitz of any kind is most certainly not on the table. CV overrates speed and if you have any kind of advantage in this department, it's not going to be enough to bridge the gap in other stats.
「2.0 - Unbreakable // The Adamantine Durability of Gog」
Gog's durability is absolutely insane. One of his lower end feats can be seen in the first issue of Mark Waid's The Kingdom, in which, upon reaching the afterlife, several Superman pooled together their telescopic vision in order to pierce the time barrier and view the time stream. What they find on July 7, 2031 is Gog indulging in his routine torture of Earth-22 Superman. Interesting enough, they are on the planet Krypton, and Superman is strapped BDSM style to a bomb that was invented by none other than Gog himself. The bomb (who's explosion goes down to the molecular level) is detonated and completely obliterates Krypton as a result. Despite being in point blank vicinity, Gog was seen wholly unscathed from the planet's explosion a moment later.
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This feat also doubles as some nifty transmutation resistance, since the bomb had the express effect of transforming every cell in Superman's body into living Kryptonite and he was unaffected [The Kingdom (1999) #1]:
Continuing further, in the The Kingdom (1999) #2, Gog follows a band of heroes into a restaurant in downtown Metropolis. The heroes amp each other by arming themselves with numerous high-tier cosmic weapons, including [but not limited to] 3 green lantern rings, before ganging up on Gog and blasting him simultaneously.. to no avail, of course.
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In fact, throughout the entire miniseries, Gog never sustained any lasting damage from any attack he received. The only two instances where he procures injury at all was when Batman shined the Phantom Zone Projector on his arm, and when Wonder Woman stabbed him with her sword—both of which was petty damage that only served to anger him.
Gog's durability isn't just limited to his outsides either. His internal durability is also immensely tough, and we see evidence of this in Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #15, where Obsidian (a teambuster level character in his own right) goes shadow form and enters Gog through his mouth for possession. After Obsidian blinds him, Gog responds by taking his Power Staff and firing a blast down his own throat, forcibly exorcising Obsidian...
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Being able to curb the offenses of Obsidian with is a blast is incredibly impressive, as is resisting his TP/soul possession long enough to think to do so. Obsidian can inhabit things down to their basic particles, which would be sub-atomic matter infusion even without the non-tangible aspects of possession. And in JSA Vol. 1 (1999) #8, Obsidian effortlessly no-sells an attack from and one-shots Ian Karkull...
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...the same Ian who, using Obsidian as a vessel, was able to single-handedly take on the combined forces of the JSA with shadow constructs and possession. The JSA roster at the time most remarkably included Hourman One Million (who can hold his own against Amazo) and Doctor Fate.
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JSA Vol. 1 (1999) #7-8
Immediately thereafter, Obsidian spreads his darkness to engulf the entire planet in the Shadowlands and makes every human on it see their worst fears.
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These feats solidify Todd being in the tier I mentioned him to be in earlier.
「3.0 - Unguardable // The Winning Versatility of Gog」
Time Manipulation
Gog's champion trait in this match will probably be his underrated versatility. I have to start with the obvious one, that being his time manipulation. Gog is perhaps the most prolific time manipulator in Kingdom Come, and actively uses time travel in battle. But his most infamous ability in this regard is probably that of being able to summon an endless stream of time displacement clones into his present to aid him in battle.
The number of clones Gog can summon is functionally infinite. He kept constantly summoning new clones from the timestream from both the future and past for over 100 years straight. And because of the composite stipulation he would have access to Hypertime, which presents alternate futures, realities and timelines comprising all creation for him to choose from.
Transmutation
For other hax, Gog has demonstrated transmutation multiple times. Take Justice Society of America Vol. 3 (2007) #18 for example, where we see Gog turn a couple of guys into trees.
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And in JSA Kingdom Come Special : Magog, Gog transmutes a group of terrorists into water and feeds them into a river.
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I also think it's pretty obvious that Gog turning Superman into Kyrptonite is akin to Old Gog God turning Jay Garrick into pure speed force in Justice Society of America Vol. 3 (2007) #18.
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Energy Absorption
He also has extremely powerful energy absorption. Here he consumed the combined power of several KC powerhouses such as Dr. Fate, Alan Scott, Zatanna, Obsidian and many others, and not only no sells the blasts but just increases in size and power.
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One of my favorite statements is this. When disarmed of his power staff, Gog states that he can absorb powers from people and that it was the trick he used to "bleed out" Amazo. So basically Gog has also killed Amazo by absorbing his powers.
Meaning the last thing you want to do is have this fight drag.
「4.0 - Conclusion // What to Expect」
You're facing an infinite army of MFTL teambusters with several one-shot abilities, such as casual transmutation and a staff powered by Godly characters that eclipse planet level and has been used to to vaporizes heralds.
Gog is definitely a worthy opponent, but as I seek to prove Reverse flash is by no means outmatched here.
Bio
I have a composite version of the Reverse Flash which includes Eobard Thawne and Hunter Zoloman.
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Eobard Thawne devoted his life to studying the speed force because he was obsessed with the flash, and wanted to meet him. Eventually he came across the original Flash’s suit which still had traces of the speed force.
He replicated the experiments that created the original flash and became the flash of the 25th century.
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However upon meeting the original flash Barry realized Eobard causes all the problems that he saves people from and apprehended him. This caused Eobard to lose it, and make it his life’s goal to make Barry suffer as the Reverse Flash.
Hunter Zolomon was a police officer who made a bad call in busting a criminal (due to what was recently revealed to have been Thawne Orchestrating things so he will become Zoom) his life fell apart.
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He later befriends Wally, who he asked to travel back in time to change his history which Wally refused to do. As a result he sneaks into the flash museum to use the cosmic treadmill which blows up, causing him to be derailed from the timeline.
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Upon realizing he has time manipulation Hunter becomes Zoom with the desire to make Wally a better hero through tragedy.
Strength/Durability
Zoom is strong enough that high tiers like WW claim that his punches hurt more than strikes from the likes of Superman. Something to keep in mind Zoom‘s only goal here is help heroes to be better, not outright beat them so he’s not trying to beat her.
And to back this up Zoom has blitzed and one shotted every member of the Justice league including Supermanhimself.
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Tanks a hit from Wally, and Wally claims he’s lucky his skull doesn’t break taking a hit from Thawne.
Now I initially didn’t plan on making any counters until my next post, however speed is obviously going to be one of, if not the biggest thing debated so I felt the need to address this section of your post.
He is also fast enough to move FTE to Jay Garrick,
I’m gonna have to stop you right there, and say that’s blatantly incorrect. And it’s quite obvious why, Jay literally says he can see KC Superman in your very own scan.
I don’t think I need to tell you what FTE means, so unless you’re saying Jay is lying/wrong he didn’t move FTE to him. Moving FTE to Jay would look like this
Jay outright confirms he didn’t see Zoom, saying he couldn’t even see a blur and Wally just assumed the threat would have to be invisible.
who compared his speed to Wally West.
And I need you to actually prove this is the case, because based on feats I’ve seen of this Superman he doesn’t massively surpass PC Superman in speed. Aside from statements like this the best I can recall is a nanosecond feat, meanwhile Wally spends a whole issue statuing Superman and washes dishes in a picosecond. Nothing KC Superman has done is remotely impressive at this tier or touches feats like these.
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1. RF blitzes both Superman and Hal Jordan at the same time.
2-3. Fights Barry Allen amped by the negative speed force lapping around the world dozens of times while traveling to different time traveling.
4. Has a whole fight with Wally in a picosecond.
So Gog literally made sport of fodderizing multiple planetary FTL characters thousands of times over.
While I’m not saying he isn’t FTL the statement you shown of Superman was just him showing his travel speed, unlike that Flashes that doesn’t apply to his combat speed.
The only thing that can match Gog's power in absurdity is his speed. Rip Hunter of the Linear Men used a spatial machine to measure Gog's speed, and he clocked him when he was operating "in-between" nanoseconds, which if taken literally should mean a smaller timeframe than nanoseconds
Notice how Hunter says he "has to be faster than him [Gog]" and then clicks a button on a wrist gauntlet before seemingly phasing out. He has to be faster than someone moving in-between nanoseconds, and then phases. Turns out, what Hunter did in this scene was later revealed to be the action phase-shifting in between attoseconds, becoming completely invisible, intangible and imperceptible as a result of this level of speed.
Except Hunter isn’t saying he moved in attoseconds against Gog, he blatantly said if he moved in nanoseconds he should be faster than Gog. He thought that would be enough and was wrong, the scan from The Kingdom issue#2 where Hunter mentions shifting into attoseconds has absolutely nothing to do with what speeds he was shifting into against Gog.
Anyway, RF actually does scale to attosecond feats. Such as the infamous scan where Barry confirms he can perceive events in less than a an attosecond.
And Wally is even faster than Barry(1,2,3) and straight up moved so fast Barry didn’t notice him.
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And despite being amped can’t see Zoom as anything more than a blur.
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As you can see, Hunter clearly maintains the same transparent see-through appearance here that he does in the scan when he was inside the superstructure, showing that he is using the same form.
Same form because he’s using the same tech, that doesn’t mean he was moving in attoseconds. If Hunter later stated he was moving in attoseconds against Gog you would be able to argue a recton and say he’s that fast, but we have a confirmed speed the scan before Gog reacted to him being nanoseconds so clearly he wasn’t using space-time tech to its fastest potential.
To further corroborate this, the fact that he only activated this form after explicitly stating he needed to be faster than Gog when he literally just measured his speed to be less than nanoseconds makes all the sense in the world, knowing that phase-shifting in-between attoseconds is something he can do.
Are we even looking at the same scans? Hunter literally says no one measured Gog’s speed......
and that if he moved in nanoseconds he should be faster.
The phase-shift procedure makes Hunter's presence undetectable, so it is irrefutable that he phase-shifted in between attoseconds against Gog because he clearly wanted to conceal his presence.
We know he moved in nanoseconds because (get this) Hunter literally says he will be doing that against Gog. Crazy I know.
In other words, Gog has a legitimate attosecond level speed feat, which, needless to say, is EXTREMELY rare.
It is, it’s so rare that even Gog doesn’t have it. Flash does, and he can’t even see Zoom.
But this isn't even his best speed feat, as within the same issue he literally reacted to a speedblitzing Kingdom Come Flash and tagged him with a blast faster than he could react.
This actually is legit, and while it doesn’t take away from the speed he performed I just want to say Gog says the electrons pretty much give him a heads up about flash which isn’t applicable here since RF is not only moving at MFTL due to speed but manipulating time as I will get to later.
Kingdom Come Flash had such a thorough connection to the speed force that he far outstrips regular Post-Crisis Wally who already has picosecond level feats.
You need to prove that, PC Wally’s whole thing is having a spiritual connection to the SF in a way most don’t. And has done some ridiculous stuff like
And Reverse Flash was literally taking on the Flash family which included both Wally and Barry.
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Kingdom Come Flash had such a thorough connection to the speed force that he far outstrips regular Post-Crisis Wally who already has picosecond level feats
But let’s say he does have a stronger connection to the SF than PC Wally simply to make a point. I doubt you will argue he has a stronger connection to the speed force than Bart who literally contained the entire speed force.
And despite that, Zoom was able to keep up with and match Bart.
Being in “multiple places” at once is something speedsters do often, and appearing to be everywhere in a city isn’t impressive when talking about mftl characters.
He is so fast that his speed as been described as unable to be contained to a single plane of existence. Entire stratas of reality are open to him.
Which is certainly impressive but I don’t know how quantifiable that is. Regardless, I’ve established that Zoom can keep up with people who have even stronger connections to the speed force even if you do prove KC Flash is faster than Wally.
The point I'm making here is that I realize most people would have automatically assumed that your character has the speed advantage. But even if that may be the case (which should be difficult to prove) a blitz of any kind is most certainly not on the table. CV overrates speed and if you have any kind of advantage in this department, it's not going to be enough to bridge the gap in other stats.
I wholeheartedly agree the vine does overrate speed, however in this match I do think speed(considering both characters seem to have abilities that can bypass the durability of the other) is going to be the best advantage to have. And I do think a blitz will be on the table, if not due to raw speed then also due to other hax that I will get to later in this post.
Hax
Time manipulation
Hunter can control how fast, or slow he moves by manipulating his own personal timeline. This allows him to blitz MFTL characters despite technically not having super speed.
Post flashpoint Eobard is similar in that his powers aren’t speed based, they’re time manipulation. In particular, he slows down time for everyone around him so he appears fast, we see him slow down the likes of the flash(who can react in Femtosecond time spans) to practically a statue. Here is the same sequence from Flash’s point of view.
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What I really want to prove is just how potent this is, Eobard‘s time slowing is so good he literally claims he wouldn’t have to dodge Flash’s attacks until tomorrow if he wanted.
Reverse flash can also outright stop time.
Accelerate a person’s age out of existence.
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He’s also not above traveling back in time to kill people, like he did with Barry’s mother, threatened to do to Barry and was going to do to Iris.
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Phasing
Is able to vibrate his body in a way that allows him to manipulate his body on an atomic level. He can use this so an attack passes through him or lethally like he did to Iris.
Telepathy
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Forces Mr. Element to do his bidding.
Probed Flash’s memories to act like him perfectly.
One shot the flash.
Forever force
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Sage force enhances intelligence, as well as grants TK and TP.
Strength force enhances strength, and provides energy projection. For what it’s worth, someone less experienced with it than hunter felt confident they could move a mountain with it.
Still force is what characters like the turtle use to rob a person of their kinetic energy, making them unable to move.
Immortality
Reverse Flash can’t die. Whether it’s Flash snapping his neck, being stabbed by Batman in flash point, or a being that scares the likes of Mxy trying to erase him from existence Eobard always comes back.
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He comes back to life from this the literal next issue, so to win here you have to rely on conditions other than death.
Existence erasure
Eobard can straight up erase a person’s existence. This doesn’t just remove them reality, but making so they “never were” as the scan below says.
You’re up against an immortal MFTL speedster with the ability to manipulate time to not only move even faster, but also slow down MFTL characters to essentially a statue(can also directly rob a person of their kinetic energy) or outright stop time. I’m not convinced Gog is anywhere near as fast as you think but I’m confident I hold the speed advantage here, and Reverse Flash has the ability to erase Gog from existence.
Oh shit, I didn't even know Watcher was using composite Hunter/Eobard. I thought he was only using Eobard. To be fair, should've refered to him as "Professor Zoom" instead. That'd make more sense, imo.
To promptly get to the heart of the matter, I'll begin by first driving home the advantages I hold that made themselves apparent after your post. Gog eclipses Reverse Flash in all things strength, power, and durability; and in my mind, you can't afford to deny this without being put to shame in a one-sided contest of feats. Every single instance you posted in that section of your opener is no better than things Kingdom Come Superman has achieved, and he's practically less-than-fodder to a composite Gog. KC Clark literally overpowered the combined might of the entire JSA—notably including constructs from Alan Scott—with no discernible effort. He scales tiers above regular Superman in both strength and durability, being unmoved by the same punch from Hercules that virtually broke Superman's nose and sent him careening into a wall dozens of meters away.
An apt comparison of KC Supes to Gog would be a fruit fly to a fly swatter. But here against Reverse Flash, there isn't just one fly swatter—there is a literal infinite amount of them, decreasing the chances of the fly's victory to zero. The one sliver of grace that prevents this arrangement from being the unsparing thrash it ought to be is Reverse Flash's hax and speed. Regrettably for you, however, his abilities would be lethal against most people not named Gog, and I think you've fatally underestimated my capacity to contend in this department. It was also within my expectation that you'd argue a blitz regardless of my insistence, and to this I'll respond to that accordingly. Before then, of course, I'll take it upon myself to explain the intricacies of this battles layout and why my arsenal is devastating against someone as powerful as even the Reverse Flash himself.
I acknowledge that RF's danger does not lie within his physical strength or destructive capacity or toughness, but rather his incredible speed and very hairy superhuman powers. But you brought a knife to a gun fight. The gap in speed has been completely overblown and neither Thawne nor Zolomon have any realistic way to make Gog wince let alone hurt him or kill him, and any Flash debater should know that killing a character who can freely time travel does nothing to actually stop them. The Professor is an expert on this matter, but we've seen it multiple times with Barry too. Gog is just too powerful for competition from petty punch rushes that won't nick his skin or time manipulation that will hardly affect him. You stated that Doomsday Doctor Manhattan "scared the likes of even Mxy" when posting the feat from The Flash (2016) #22, wherein Manhattan killed Thawne and he resurrected the next issue. Well Gog has literally bored a hole through Mxy himself.
I thought I was being conservative with the Power Staff estimates earlier. But seeing you decided to pursue a stomp angle in this match I guess there's no reason to hold back. Gog's staff carries the power of a dozen Red Suns (which are gigantic) something that, if taken literally, denotes nothing short of multi-star or multi system level ranges of potency. And this is perfectly consistent considering his feats of barbecuing characters who bathe in the Sun and take zero heat damage from novas. Even more so when you look at just how drastically he scales above the combined power of the Quintessence, which houses the powers of several cosmic beings on top of the Guardians of the Universe.
From everything I've seen of the Zooms myself... You are simply not equipped to deal with this level of heat. Gog's power through his staff is just too much, indestructible planet or not; with an endlessly growing number of Gogs present and overfilling the battlefield (planet) there's no way you're going to escape. And keep in mind Gog's durability scales to this as he stuck his own staff down his own throat and fired a blast just to ward off Obsidian. With his hax on top of everything? Forget it.
「Part 2」
I’m gonna have to stop you right there, and say that’s blatantly incorrect. And it’s quite obvious why, Jay literally says he can see KC Superman in your very own scan.
Congratulations on your complete failure at being able to read a single scan. The whole phrase reads "I see him, Alan. Heading up on seventh. Sonnuvagun is fast. Maybe as fast as Wally. Where the heck did he go?" This plainly expresses that he initially spotted KC Superman but failed to track him; meaning Superman completely disappeared from Jay's perceptive field of vision despite Jay having already trained his eyes on him, moving too fast for him to see within the same heartbeat he was spotted.
Jay outright confirms he didn’t see Zoom, saying he couldn’t even see a blur and Wally just assumed the threat would have to be invisible.
In view of his ability to embarrass way faster characters with the ease of breathing, ghosting Jay is a feat that Gog would replicate with a fraction of his power on his worst day. It's not relevant to this discussion at all when your focus is arguing superiority. You could say that Zoom's feat is a greater degree of FTE, but the best anyone would gather from that is that you believe Zoom is faster than KC Supes, which... duh.
And I need you to actually prove this is the case, because based on feats I’ve seen of this Superman he doesn’t massively surpass PC Superman in speed. Aside from statements like this the best I can recall is a nanosecond feat, meanwhile Wally spends a whole issue statuing Superman and washes dishes in a picosecond. Nothing KC Superman has done is remotely impressive at this tier or touches feats like these.
I'm sorry, you're asking me to prove the validity of a statement made by a character who knows better than anyone the capabilities of a fellow speedster, on account of being one himself? One who has interacted with and fought alongside the fellow speedster in question multiple times, and has witnessed his speed firsthand? One who, in that situation where he was relaying important information to his colleagues on Superman's whereabouts after Superman bulldozed the entire team, had no reason to overestimate the ability of what he was [barely] seeing? Jay's comment can not possibly read as a hyperbolic or groundless statement to anyone who factors in all these pieces of context. The person who made the statement and the situation the statement was made in is proof of it's own veracity.
If you had stopped and bothered to examine those factors before typing this, I'm sure you would agree, but I know you didn't make an attempt to understand the context. Hell, you didn't even read the scan! You stopped dead short at the first sentence and somehow managed to misconstrue the remaining few.
Also, KC Superman massively surpasses PC Superman in everything. Why there would even be a divide makes no sense when you acknowledge that they have the exact same cell structure and Kingdom Come incarnations were literally just future versions of their PC counterparts, grown proportionally in power with their age.
KC Superman would be uniformly greater than PC Superman because he's literally the same person, just better. Not X amount of times better in one stat and Y amount in another. You would have to prove otherwise considering there's nothing even suggesting a difference in the first place; you simply made that up.
While I’m not saying he isn’t FTL the statement you shown of Superman was just him showing his travel speed, unlike that Flashes that doesn’t apply to his combat speed.
It wasn't just a statement, he actually moved too fast for Jay in the same breadth. Plus, Gog has casually reacted to PC Superman's travel speed via smacking him out of the air mid-flight from an oncoming bullrush, which is greater than just his basic combat speed. Notwithstanding those particular details, KC Superman has measured time in nanoseconds so would be FTL without scaling anyway, which you admitted.
With scaling, I'm not seeing why he can't be as fast as Wally, or at least close enough to where Jay supposes this notion. And Jay is literally the most credible person to make that comparison considering how much time he's spent with both.
Except Hunter isn’t saying he moved in attoseconds against Gog, he blatantly said if he moved in nanoseconds he should be faster than Gog. He thought that would be enough and was wrong, the scan from The Kingdom issue#2 where Hunter mentions shifting into attoseconds has absolutely nothing to do with what speeds he was shifting into against Gog.
Welcome to the land of irredeemably wrong. Rip Hunter didn't state that if he moved in nanoseconds he should be faster than Gog, but rather if he stepped in-BETWEEN them. The dichotomy here separating the two clauses is that the second one denotes a time-frame smaller than nanoseconds, a taxonomy that attosecond happens to fall under. What's more is that Hunter still wasn't anywhere near as fast as Gog with his phase-shift, considering he failed to react to Gog in spite of the fact he literally sneaked up on him while Gog was off-guard and preoccupied.
And seriously? Hunter's phase shift occurrence in issue #2 of The Kingdom has "absolutely nothing" to do with him performing the exact same action against Gog in issue #1? The action of phase shifting his speed into a unit of time makes him virtually imperceptible, in order to both conceal his presence and get the jump on someone—and those are the very two things he needed to do against Gog in order to rescue Superman's baby from being his hostage. His appearance was the exact same on both occasions, he was translucent aka see-through which is about as close to an outright confirmation as any statement, when considering we're talking about the activation of a certain power that has a distinct visual characteristic.
I'll get to the speed scaling later.
Same form because he’s using the same tech, that doesn’t mean he was moving in attoseconds. If Hunter later stated he was moving in attoseconds against Gog you would be able to argue a recton and say he’s that fast, but we have a confirmed speed the scan before Gog reacted to him being nanoseconds so clearly he wasn’t using space-time tech to its fastest potential.
I disagree, because only that specific application of his tech gives him that form. You say "same form because he's using the same tech" but earlier in the issue we saw him using the same tech (wristbands) to phase-shift and he wasn't transparent in appearance.
On your point about the fastest potential of the tech: Wouldn't you agree that's all the more reason for him to go at higher levels against Gog, when he's attacking than casually chilling inside the superstructure?
Look, I'm not gonna pretend I don't understand the confusion when reading the scans normally and see that Hunter states he'll step betwixt nanoseconds in one moment and attoseconds in another. The chief difference is that Gog was massively faster than him anyway and his form and purpose was the exact same, with the Gog occurrence having higher stakes meaning this is likely still an attosecond or near attosecond level feat for a *distracted* Gog.
Zoom is drastically faster than this anyway, and Gog also has better speed scaling so there's no need to go back and forth on this and split hairs in the process.
Are we even looking at the same scans? Hunter literally says no one measured Gog’s speed......
and that if he moved in nanoseconds he should be faster.
I jumbled up the words, but please don't hit me with a question like that when you've proven you barely skim the issues. Your point is nullified by Gog being much faster than Hunter, and Hunter stating he'd be moving in-between nanoseconds not moving in time with them. In the attosecond scan, he stated he moved in-between attoseconds, which also denotes an even smaller timeframe than attoseconds, so honestly nothing is out of the question and the fact remains that Gog is massively faster than nano/pico/femto levels of speed.
Kingdom Come Flash
The next portion of your speed counters focused on KC Wally and Gog's scaling above him. I'll refute some of the claims individually, but my main goal here is to demonstrate that KC Wally >= Post Crisis Wally up until Flash Forward. At the end of the day, all of Zoom's speed scaling is just scaling above the so-called Scarlet Speedsters. And unfortunately for you, Gog (via being casually faster than Wally) permits him to benefit from the exact same scaling of all the non-amped feats from PC/PF Wally, including the high ends you gleefully didn't hold back from indulging in like outrunning the Big Bang.
Now the main shtick with Kingdom Come is that it's very close to the Post-Crisis universe but takes place in the future where everyone is older and stronger than their regular versions. Wally is no different. He doesn't have a lot of feats and statements, but from all available evidence at my disposal, he is pretty much a composite Flash. Based on the Kingdom Come Companion and the Kingdom Come/Revelations, as well as interviews from Mark Waid and Alex Ross, KC Wally is an amalgam of Wally himself, Jay Garrick, Barry Allen and Jesse Quick. He's a spiritual successor to all the known Flashes put together, and because of this his speed is greater than regular Wally who is already the fastest Flash.
Addressing your Speed Force concerns, at some unknown point in time KC Wally literally fused with the Speed Force; making his permanent physical appearance akin of a living embodiment. Because of KC Wally's connection to the Speed Force, he is literally incapable of not being in state of motion. He is constantly moving no matter what... even when standing completely still in one place he is moving.
Here is an album of KC Flash constantly in a state of motion. Part of him is literal speed force and the other part tries to be grounded in our reality. His speed is so great that he can not be confined to one plane of existence or reality, as you saw, but this was actually proven when Wally casually reached over into the astral plane and pulled out Norman McCay in front of the JSA.
Keep in mind this is done through pure speed. Like you said, it's not quantifiable at all in terms of numbers, but neither is "running faster than time" or "faster than the speed force" or anything of that nature, which I think is exactly the point. These characters at their highest incarnations are too fast for raw numbers or sensibility; they break the laws of physics and cross the borders between time and space. As for Wally, no one can see or hear him but his presence is simply felt everywhere at once.
And being virtually omnipresent throughout a major city may not be impressive for MFTL characters by itself, but you have to realize the narration stated Keystone became a utopia in the time of Superman's absence. Superman was gone for years within the storyline. So we're talking about omnipresence constantly for years... relentlessly patrolling the city and squashing crime. I seriously doubt Wally can match that. As a matter of fact, when he was amped fighting Zoom in Blitz and he covered "every inch of the planet" after circling it dozens of times, he stated in the same breadth that the battle only lasted for less than a second, and in spite of that he nearly used up all his energy.
Now of course, there's a large difference between covering every inch of the planet and covering every inch of a city, but by the same token, there's a large difference between less than a second and multiple years. And PC Wally was only able to accomplish this after circling the planet dozens of times, and his and Zooms presence wasn't felt everywhere at once... so KC Wally's feat is still greater. The difference between size is cancelled out by the length of time they occupied it, and simply passing through a location is wayyy less impressive than maintaining a constant presence there for a long period of time.
This should be sufficient enough evidence to prove that KC Wally is faster than Wally pre-Flash Forward, but if that doesn't satisfy you, I'm sitting on a trove of information that I culled after blitzing through his appearances. You see, KC Wally lives in-between the ticks of a second, which at one point wasn't actually a figure of speech; as it turned out, in the 200th issue of Geoff Johns Flash vol. 2 run, Zoom congratulated Wally on finally being able to get locked between the ticks of a second, which Zoom described as "his world". Wally was literally amped by the entire living Flash family just to reach this threshold, having absorbed every drop of kinetic energy from Jay and Bart (to the point neither would replenish for hours) and taking in Jesse's entire mantra. He went though all this to just to finally be able to see Zoom, and this is the domain that KC Flash lives in, i.e operates exclusively through.
The only contradiction to this under Johns' came when Wally fought Gorilla Grodd again issue #211 of the same run.
Grodd was in the process of breaking his ribs at the exact moment Wally said that, and it makes no sense for Grodd to be that fast (if Wally was actually in speed mode like he said) considering how consistently he's been able to straight up blitz him in the past. I know Grodd can tag Wally but usually only when Wally hurts himself attacking him or there's some other context to the situation. I chalk it up to a misstep on John's part but at worse, this simply shows that KC Wally and PC Wally are at least on the same speed tier.
And so enters your glorious speed scaling!
PC Wally’s whole thing is having a spiritual connection to the SF in a way most don’t. And has done some ridiculous stuff like
Barry confirms he can perceive events in less than a an attosecond.
And Wally is even faster than Barry(1,2,3) and straight up moved so fast Barry didn’t notice him.
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Kingdom Come Wally should be as fast as or faster than the amped version of Wally who fought Zolomon in Blitz, the one who absorbed all of Jay, Jesse and Bart's speed. This is due to the fact that KC Wally is literally a composite amalgamation of the three characters I just named, and lives in between the ticks of a second that PC Wally needed their energies to access. KC Wally has such a thorough connection to the speed force that he literally is always in a state of motion. He also has a way better stamina feat than Wally who is the fastest of the speedsters, and speed stamina directly correlates to Speed Force connection.
Gog effortlessly reacted to KC Wally running at him full speed with his back turned. He wasn't even paying attention to him until he turned around and blasted him before he could dodge or react. Zoom is fully capable of blitzing PC Wally, but he has no feats to suggest he can blitz someone as fast as Gog who (like him) is also capable of blitzing PC Wally.
To round this up, you might be wondering why I mentioned Flash Forward several times. Well as I'm sure you know, it was within this storyline (which happened very recently, it concluded just this month) that Wally West achieved his most powerful ever—sitting on the Mobius Chair and gaining the powers of Doctor Manhattan post-Doomsday Clock.
Prior to this he pushed himself past his limits and ran faster than anyone had ever moved before, faster than even the Speed Force.
Wally returned to his position as the fastest man alive and actually became the fastest person in the multiverse upon completing this feat. Faster than anyone had moved before includes both Thawne and Zolomon, two people whose speed Wally knows very well considering he fought both of them at the same time during Rogue War.
But let’s say he does have a stronger connection to the SF than PC Wally simply to make a point. I doubt you will argue he has a stronger connection to the speed force than Bart who literally contained the entire speed force.
If you're of the opinion that Speed Force connection correlates with speed, then your conclusion insinuates that Bart is faster than Wally, which isn't true. Just because Bart has the connection doesn't mean he makes the best use of it. And even then, KC Wally is literally a living embodiment of the Speed Force. So you're back to square one.
I wholeheartedly agree the vine does overrate speed, however in this match I do think speed(considering both characters seem to have abilities that can bypass the durability of the other) is going to be the best advantage to have. And I do think a blitz will be on the table, if not due to raw speed then also due to other hax that I will get to later in this post.
You can't agree with me that the Vine overrates speed and turn around and think this match can go any other way than me winning. A blitz is most certainly not on the table when I benefit from all the speed scaling you do, on top of shitting on you in terms of strength, durability and power and boasting comparable hax and versatility. Speed is just not going to carry you here when you're fighting an >INFINITE< number of characters in your speed tier, all swarming you and firing blasts with up to multi-star/multi-solar system level potency and hax that I'm about to expand on.
「Part 3」
Reverse Flash has a lot of cool and nifty abilities, especially so when composite. But I got a bone to pick with a handful of them and counters to the other.
Time Manipulation
Eobard Thawne's powers are Negative Speed Force based both prior to Flashpoint and after it. There are many examples proving this but ultimately there would be no point since you're using a union of him and Zolomon, who's powers are actually time based. Thawne can use time manipulation as well, as you made clear, but the speed force is by no means completely independent of him.
Rebutting their time manipulation is not what I'm here to do though. What I will now bespeak of is the notion that Gog is superior to the Reverse Flashes in time manipulation. By far.
You know, it's funny. Hunter manipulated Wally to inadvertently break the Force Barrier with Barry during Flash War in Rebirth, giving Zolomon control over several Forces (resulting in the Forever Forces and massively amping him) he was able to finally access Hypertime, which Gog can access as a regular part of his powerset. (Flash vol. 5 #50)
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Zolomon was actively outracing and beating up Barry and Wally at the same time, so this speaks volumes to either Gog's speed or time manipulation or both, considering he has a greater level of mastery of Hypertime in his standard Kingdom version. Either way you spin it Gog is most certainly not out of depth in this fight, in actuality it would be the opposite. Zolomon needs to be amped after tricking two people under a very specific set of circumstances in order to simply access the level of time freedom that Gog mastered in his regular base form.
What I really want to prove is just how potent this is, Eobard‘s time slowing is so good he literally claims he wouldn’t have to dodge Flash’s attacks until tomorrow if he wanted.
This is impressive but I'll need to see evidence that it can work against someone who is an anomaly in the timestream.
Gog is an anomaly in the timestream who threatened to destroy the space-time continuum after murdering Superman countless times over at various points in the time.
Which in Gog's case means he's a completely aberrant individual; he doesn't obey or conform to any law of time or metric of measuring time, and operates completely independent of time itself when traveling through Hypertime (which is it's own space).
Furthermore, while it'd be cool to slow down Gog's time until he's a statue to you and you don't have to dodge his strikes till the next day, it'd be kind of awkward in this situation where an infinite number of time displacement clones every minute in the future for at least to 200 years converge their attacks on you.
And yes I mean converge their attacks, as in send their attacks with themselves back through time. Gog literally traveled back in time from 200 years later to kill a past version of himself with a blast.
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So yeah, it's nifty that you can slow down one Gog or a group of Gogs with time manipulation to a standstill. But wouldn't it be a bitch when a Gog from 87 years, 5 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 15 hours and 36 minutes from then appears behind you out of nowhere and turns you into charcoal with a multi-star level blast like KC Superman? Or blows a gaping hole through your torso like Mxy? Yeah it would.
Reverse flash can also outright stop time.
Assuming this is localized time stop then the same counters apply really. And I don't really see what's stopping Gog from killing past and future versions of RF at separate points in the times over and over again to prevent this from happening or cause divergent timelines/paradoxes like he did to Superman.
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Accelerate a person’s age out of existence.
Out of existence? This to be pretty obviously just Thawne aging Hot Pursuit until his body decayed. It won't work on Gog considering he's immortal in the sense of longevity and can't die of age.
He’s also not above traveling back in time to kill people, like he did with Barry’s mother, threatened to do to Barry and was going to do to Iris.
Probed Flash’s memories to act like him perfectly.
One shot the flash.
Neither TP nor soul manip would work. Gog resisted Obsidian who possessed the entire JSA, including Doctor Fate who's Helmet has extremely powerful wards in it (all scans are in the durability section of my opener). The wards in Fate's helmet incapacitated Godfrey's mind when he placed the helmet on in Legends #6. They reflected Kulak's TP assault back at him and caused a huge psychic backlash. Kulak's TP was strong enough to mind control the Spectre.
Is able to vibrate his body in a way that allows him to manipulate his body on an atomic level. He can use this so an attack passes through him or lethally like he did to Iris.
The Gog's can heal each other but I'm not sure how this would improve your situation anyway.
Reverse Flash can’t die. Whether it’s Flash snapping his neck, being stabbed by Batman in flash point, or a being that scares the likes of Mxy trying to erase him from existence Eobard always comes back.
He comes back to life from this the literal next issue, so to win here you have to rely on conditions other than death.
Big whup. Gog can instantly resurrect people from the dead. A new JSA recruit named Lance was hit by a rocket launcher blast and was immediately killed. Gog brought Lance back to life a second later and even amped him and turned him into his new herald.
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So if any Gog gets killed in this match, not only would they have been replaced by the infinite number of Gog's pouring in from infinite alternate timelines and realities, any of the other Gog's present on the battlefield would just instantly bring them back to life.
Also Thawne can resurrect but many times he didn't. Like when he first came back in Flash ('87) #75-79 impersonating Barry in order to torment Wally. He was time traveling using the Cosmic Treadmill.
In Rebirth when Barry mentions he killed Thawne, Thawne replies that he has a resurrection "in the days ahead" which implies that he just travels back in time even when he does resurrect. So killing Thawne definitely satisfies a win condition since Gog can time travel just as well, or he can simply transmute him into pure speed force and absorb it. No character kills their opponent and sits around waiting for them to come back to life, lol. A win is a win even if your character has the ability to come back for a round 2 down the line.
The same thing with that scan of Thawne coming back the issue following his death. It was not an immediate revival like you saw the one Gog do.
Eobard can straight up erase a person’s existence. This doesn’t just remove them reality, but making so they “never were” as the scan below says.
This honestly doesn't seem like true existence erasure to me. You yourself argued Thawne's powers as time manipulation based after Flashpoint, so it would lend to my point. It seems like he is deleting someone from their timeline/timestream making it so they never existed there. With Gog having Hypertime that allows him to access clones across infinite timelines and realities, this is like dumping a bucket of water on the Sun in order to extinguish it.
My Overlooked Ability
I talked about this in my opener and it just feels overlooked for some reason. Gog was briefly disarmed of his Power staff he showcased the the ability to absorb powers. He absorbed heat vision from Superman and stated it was using this absorption ability that he killed Future Amazo.
One of my favorite statements is this. When disarmed of his power staff, Gog states that he can absorb powers from people and that it was the trick he used to "bleed out" Amazo. So basically Gog has also killed Amazo by absorbing his powers.
Amazo has power copying of his own and lost to Gog which shows superiority on that front. Besides copying the powers of the entire JLA as you know about, Amazo was even able to copy Hourman's infinite time abilities and he has froze the Big Bang in time.
Gog will literally steal all of your powers lmao.
GG.
Conclusion
I feel like counters speak for themselves. If you've been reading the debate or following closely then you'll know what I am going to say here.
Gog is fast enough to prevent a full on blitz, and his insurmountable numbers advantage shrinks any remaining speed advantage to effectively null, because RF will get swarmed. Getting dogpiled by an infinite number of MFTL clones with a staff that carries the power of dozens of large stars isn't a good position to be in, especially when any of these clones resurrect their other selves instantly after death and transmute you into an inanimate object with a thought. Or absorb all of your powers in a blink.
As someone who knew nothing of Gog coming into this debate, I'm going to go read all of his appearances now. This has been a fantastic debate so far, TAEP.
Let me make a couple things clear before we begin. First is that despite my opponent’s entire argument he’s already conceded the speed advantage, he’s just arguing a blitz isn’t possible(though I disagree with that premise). And two, Hunter and Eobard’s power sets compliment each other very great. Hunter’s time manipulation allows him to shift into a faster timeline(choosing how fast it moves) but he doesn’t actually have super speed(at least pre rebirth, where he exclusively uses his speed force). Eobard does, so the two of them used together would make this Zoom far faster than he’s ever been. I just felt this was worth pointing out.
To promptly get to the heart of the matter, I'll begin by first driving home the advantages I hold that made themselves apparent after your post. Gog eclipses Reverse Flash in all things strength, power, and durability; and in my mind, you can't afford to deny this without being put to shame in a one-sided contest of feats.
And let it be known that I never cared about proving RF was stronger, strength really isn’t the deciding factor in this fight whatsoever but I do think you’re pushing it to say Eobard can’t even come close here.
I’ve shown Eobard can consistently one shot SA powerhouses like Green Lanterns(capable of flying through stars unharmed), Power Ring(capable of holding his own with Superman), and even Hal Jordan. Barry Allen who Eobard can trade blows with has shown himself capable of hurting Pre Crisis Superman himself.
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Side note, Barry also tanks that attack from Superman as seen in the next panel. And I don’t think this needs to be said but this version of Superman is far above his post crisis, or his KC self.
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Moves the sun closer to earth.
Takes being hit by a supernova, and is only dazed for a microsecond.
Throws a neutron star that had a pull greater than a dozen supernovas that was effecting earth from 5M LYs away to another galaxy.
Unharmed by a point blank supernova.
He even has his more absurd showings like this. So needless time say Reverse Flash being able to hurt people on this tier is very impressive, and way better than scaling above PC Superman for instance.
I acknowledge that RF's danger does not lie within his physical strength or destructive capacity or toughness, but rather his incredible speed and very hairy superhuman powers. But you brought a knife to a gun fight. The gap in speed has been completely overblown and neither Thawne nor Zolomon have any realistic way to make Gog wince let alone hurt him or kill him, and any Flash debater should know that killing a character who can freely time travel does nothing to actually stop them.
Completely false, RF has the means to hurt Gog physically. And definitely has the hax to kill him, that’s not even debatable. RF has the means to put Gog down as will be made clear soon enough. Quite frankly the only reason this is a fight is because of Gog’s clones, otherwise RF would brutally murder Gog.
and any Flash debater should know that killing a character who can freely time travel does nothing to actually stop them.
I mean, time travel in and of itself doesn’t make one immune to death. Unless it’s someone like Gog or RF, who have versions of themselves at different points in time so they aren’t truly “dead”. In Gog’s case it is relevant to the fight since he can summon them, but we’ll get to that later.
You stated that Doomsday Doctor Manhattan "scared the likes of even Mxy" when posting the feat from The Flash (2016) #22, wherein Manhattan killed Thawne and he resurrected the next issue. Well Gog has literally bored a hole through Mxy himself.
I would say this is most certainly an outlier, come on now. It’s established that all versions off Mxy across the multiverse are the same guy....
..... and Mxy has displayed feats easily putting him at universe+. Based on the feats you’re giving me Gog taking out being that are effortlessly universal is far from consistent. In regards to what I was showing, I was just proving Eobard always comes back(similar to Doomsday), Thawne likewise taking out a character of that magnitude would be outlier too if he had those feats.
And this is perfectly consistent considering his feats of barbecuing characters who bathe in the Sun and take zero heat damage from novas. Even more so when you look at just how drastically he scales above the combined power of the Quintessence, which houses the powers of several cosmic beings on top of the Guardians of the Universe.
I can definitely agree it’s above star level, but having the dozen large stars could easily be hyperbole. I mean if this is the logic you’re going for I can easily point out Pre Crisis Superman hit someone with Hal’s ring and memories with the force of 100 suns.
This is the PC versions of the Guardians, not the KC version.
From everything I've seen of the Zooms myself... You are simply not equipped to deal with this level of heat.
I don’t intend to argue Zoom tanking this level of heat, because I don’t need to since Zoom is able to turn intangible.
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Barry Allen’s phasing allows heat to harmlessly pass through his molecules.
Impulse phases through electricity
Wally phases through Weather Wizard’s rod which holds electrical energy.
Eobard and Barry’s phasing works the exact same during the pre crisis era, and as I shown heat doesn’t effect him while phasing. Wally and even impulse have also shown phasing through electricity is possible which calls for literally phasing through electrons. It doesn’t really matter if Zoom can tank attacks that can’t hit him anyway.
And keep in mind Gog's durability scales to this as he stuck his own staff down his own throat and fired a blast just to ward off Obsidian. With his hax on top of everything? Forget it.
No it doesn’t..... the version of Gog that stuck his staff down his throat is an entirely different version of Gog than the one from Kingdom come(the version that has the staff statement of having the power of a dozen suns). This same Gog was brought to his knees by far less...
.....having a composite doesn’t excuse the fact that his durability in regards to taking his staff only scales to the feats that version has.
Part 2
This plainly expresses that he initially spotted KC Superman but failed to track him; meaning Superman completely disappeared from Jay's perceptive field of vision despite Jay having already trained his eyes on him, moving too fast for him to see within the same heartbeat he was spotted.
I will admit I was wrong in this regard.
In view of his ability to embarrass way faster characters with the ease of breathing, ghosting Jay is a feat that Gog would replicate with a fraction of his power on his worst day.
You’re making it seem like Gog casually is tiers above KC Superman because he kills him and based on Batman’s statement but something never pointed out is that Superman never sees him coming. The countless times he kills Superman he appears out of nowhere and kills him, often before he has a chance to do much. Like look at the first time Gog kills Superman.
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Gog appears out of nowhere, Superman offers to give him some advice.... and is promptly incinerated by Gog. Don’t take this out of context, Gog is fast enough to take on Superman but what I’m saying is let’s not act like his speed isn’t even noteworthy to Gog.
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As I’ve already shown he’s been danced around by Jesse chambers, he’s not this casual mftl “teambuster” you’re portraying him as.
I'm sorry, you're asking me to prove the validity of a statement made by a character who knows better than anyone the capabilities of a fellow speedster, on account of being one himself? One who has interacted with and fought alongside the fellow speedster in question multiple times, and has witnessed his speed firsthand?
That’s exactly what I’m asking you to do, and that’s why you spend all this time spewing useless information.... you can’t prove KC Superman is as fast as Wally West. Jay never said he’s as fast as Wally, he said “maybe”. Maybe, as in, he isn’t sure that’s the case and expresses its a possibility. And if this is something you truly believe you should have no problem actually proving it...... but you can’t. You can’t even prove KC Superman is faster than freaking Barry Allen. The best quantifiable feat he has is what? Moving in nanoseconds?That’s utter garbage to the flash.
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A computer that can process over one hundred thousand trillion calculations a second is slow to the flash. That’s 100 quadrillion calculations a second.
Reacts to a bullet the femtosecond it touches him.
Runs to earth’s core in a nanosecond.
Laps the earth countless times at such speeds that star labs cameras had to slow down the footage to a trillionth just to see Barry and Wally. Keep in mind a picosecond is a trillionth if a second.
Can perceive events in less than an attosecond.
KC Superman doesn’t even come close to this level of speed, don’t even try to argue otherwise cause it’s not a debate you can win. Even if Jay said KC Superman was as fast as Wally, don’t pretend hyperbole doesn’t exist. That’s why feats matter, his best feats don’t even come close to the casual feats Barry and Wally regularly perform which is indisputable.
And as I’ve already made it clear, Eobard is faster than Barry is. This is something Eobard blatantly says while casually reacting to a blitz from Flash with his back turned......
.....and something Barry himself admits in the same storyline issues before.
Barry didn’t even see Eobard move, you need to prove Gog is faster than the likes of Barry to even have a prayer of perceiving RF.
One who, in that situation where he was relaying important information to his colleagues on Superman's whereabouts after Superman bulldozed the entire team, had no reason to overestimate the ability of what he was [barely] seeing?
Keep in mind Jay is the slowest flash. Bart, Barry, Wally, they’re all faster than him significantly. This is a noteworthy feat for Jay. Superman moves too fast for Jay to keep track of? Good for him, Wally moves so fast that light has trouble keeping up with him, and Jay nearly loses track of him when following his afterimages. Jay even says how Wally would leave him standing, and then Wally states he can leave photons standing.
The fact is, Wally is one of the most broken speedsters in fiction in terms of speed feats. I have feats on my side, while you have a statement of someone saying a character might be on his level, not even that they’re sure said person is. KC Superman doesn’t have the showings to say he’s as fast as Wally, or even Barry which isn’t something you can argue otherwise.
Also, KC Superman massively surpasses PC Superman in everything
Note that I never denied or implied KC Superman’s superiority, I only asked for proof he massively outstrips PC Superman as firmly as Wally does in the area of speed. As I have already shown, the big is huge, so much so that Wally literally spends entire issues running around the country(and defeats the villain of the issue) statuing Superman before he can move a couple ft. That alone is something you could never prove KC Superman is capable of, his best feat is a nanosecond feat which is laughably slow.
Why there would even be a divide makes no sense when you acknowledge that they have the exact same cell structure and Kingdom Come incarnations were literally just future versions of their PC counterparts, grown proportionally in power with their age.
Except they’re not? Like, the Kingdom makes it very clear Gog was traveling back in time killing KC Superman every day of his life until he arrived at the Kansas instance. He never traveled to another universe, which is where KC Superman hails from and even states.
Like where are you getting the idea that they’re from the same timeline when it’s common knowledge KC Superman is from earth 22, while PC is from Earth one? Is it because of the costume looking like PC’s? Cause, it’s quite obvious he changes his costume later in life. This isn’t speculation, we see a flashback of him wearing the exact costume we see in the scan you posted when Lois is dying from Joker’s hands.
And the events of The Kingdom for the younger Superman happen while Lois is still alive.
KC Superman would be uniformly greater than PC Superman because he's literally the same person, just better. Not X amount of times better in one stat and Y amount in another. You would have to prove otherwise considering there's nothing even suggesting a difference in the first place; you simply made that up.
They’re not the same person, there is zero evidence of that. I will admit that KC Superman is stronger, which is something I never disagreed with to begin with.
KC Superman has measured time in nanoseconds so would be FTL without scaling anyway, which you admitted.
Big whoop, you realize Flash has been FTL since his debut right?
That’s a joke to the flash, that doesn’t even come close to adding credibility to the claim KC Superman is even in the same realm of speed as Wally.
Welcome to the land of irredeemably wrong. Rip Hunter didn't state that if he moved in nanoseconds he should be faster than Gog, but rather if he stepped in-BETWEEN them.The dichotomy here separating the two clauses is that the second one denotes a time-frame smaller than nanoseconds, a taxonomy that attosecond happens to fall under
Great. The thing is stepping in BETWEEN nanoseconds and in between attoseconds aren’t remotely the same thing. In a nanosecond, light would move about 1 ft, but in an attosecond? Light would barely even have enough time to move from one end of a molecule to the other. It’s quite a large difference. If he was stepping in between attoseconds he would have said so.
And seriously? Hunter's phase shift occurrence in issue #2 of The Kingdom has "absolutely nothing" to do with him performing the exact same action against Gog in issue #1?
Yep. Because we know how fast he was moving in issue 1, and it wasn’t the same as issue 2.
His appearance was the exact same on both occasions, he was translucent aka see-through which is about as close to an outright confirmation as any statement, when considering we're talking about the activation of a certain power that has a distinct visual characteristic.
I don’t think you’re following me. Yes, it’s the same ability, but one instance wasn’t used to it’s fullest potential. Think of his tech like a car, Hunter is the driver. Hunter is in his car moving at 50 mph against Gog and 100 mph in another instance. Do you get me? Yes, the same action is being performed in that he’s driving but he’s not doing it to the same extent.
You say "same form because he's using the same tech" but earlier in the issue we saw him using the same tech (wristbands) to phase-shift and he wasn't transparent in appearance.
I’m not sure why that matters at all but it did.
You can literally see he uses it to escape without anyone noticing, and someone even says “Hunter? Where are you?” And he’s visually more translucent than he was before.
On your point about the fastest potential of the tech: Wouldn't you agree that's all the more reason for him to go at higher levels against Gog, when he's attacking than casually chilling inside the superstructure?
Does it make sense for him to not use it to it’s higher level against Gog? No, it would make sense for him to use the higher ones but that isn’t what happened. He thought, however, stepping in BETWEEN nanoseconds would be enough and he says this.....
.....he just also happened to be wrong.
Zoom is drastically faster than this anyway,
I agree, literally makes no difference either way as both aren’t on the level of Zoom.
Your point is nullified by Gog being much faster than Hunter, and Hunter stating he'd be moving in-between nanoseconds not moving in time with them. In the attosecond scan, he stated he moved in-between attoseconds, which also denotes an even smaller timeframe than attoseconds, so honestly nothing is out of the question and the fact remains that Gog is massively faster than nano/pico/femto levels of speed.
He was able to react to him, that should put him above nanosecond speeds possibly reaching picoseconds, though I don’t see massively faster than that. Reacting to someone doesn’t always call for faster speed.
Kingdom Come Flash
And unfortunately for you, Gog (via being casually faster than Wally) permits him to benefit from the exact same scaling of all the non-amped feats from PC/PF Wally, including the high ends you gleefully didn't hold back from indulging in like outrunning the Big Bang.
Except it doesn’t? Gog has never met PC Wally, and can’t scale off him. The only speedsters he’s met are KC Wally, KC Kid Flash, Jesse Quick, and Jay Garrick. And again, reacting to someone doesn’t call for being faster necessarily, especially since KC’s speed gave him an early warning of sorts that isn’t applicable when Zoom will not only be moving via speed but through time.
Now the main shtick with Kingdom Come is that it's very close to the Post-Crisis universe but takes place in the future where everyone is older and stronger than their regular versions. Wally is no different.
Let’s put this argument to bed shall we? KC isn’t Post Crisis’ future, this has been debunked by the fact that KC Superman is outright stated to not be from the future but instead another Earth.
There are several other things that make such a thing not make sense, like both of KC Flash’s kids having super speed when only Iris has super speed in PC and Jai being named Barry in KC, ect. Kingdom Come is another reality entirely, and not simply the future like you seem to think. I think what really puts the nail in the coffin is what Mark Waid himself says(the writer for Kingdom Come) on the matter. When asked if he views Kingdom Come as the future of Post Crisis he says “It’s not a prophecy, it’s a cautionary fable.” And then says that is what was what he and Alex has in mind going into it, and the story had to be set apart from DC continuity for it to even work.
It’s clear they’re not the future of Post Crisis. This is what the Author himself says, the comics themselves say...... Kingdom Come isn’t connected to Post Crisis.
Based on the Kingdom Come Companion and the Kingdom Come/Revelations, as well as interviews from Mark Waid and Alex Ross, KC Wally is an amalgam of Wally himself, Jay Garrick, Barry Allen and Jesse Quick. He's a spiritual successor to all the known Flashes put together, and because of this his speed is greater than regular Wally who is already the fastest Flash.
Well as I’ve already proven KC Wally and PC Wally aren’t the same person, so that removes scaling from Wally from even being a possibility. And it seems most likely it was the Flashes from his earth, as we know he had predecessors.
But even so Jay and Johnny Quick aren’t all that fast in comparison to Wally or Barry. So even if we assume for some reason he has the speed Barry has too(who is the only relevant character in that composite) so what? We know KC Flash wasn’t always like this, but we have no feats from beforehand and none of his feats afterwards beat what PC Barry or Wally are capable of. Even SA Barry is tiers below Wally in speed.
Because of KC Wally's connection to the Speed Force, he is literally incapable of not being in state of motion. He is constantly moving no matter what... even when standing completely still in one place he is moving.
And? So what?
Keep in mind this is done through pure speed. Like you said, it's not quantifiable at all in terms of numbers, but neither is "running faster than time" or "faster than the speed force" or anything of that nature, which I think is exactly the point. These characters at their highest incarnations are too fast for raw numbers or sensibility; they break the laws of physics and cross the borders between time and space.
I fail to see why this proves he’s faster than Wally or even Barry. Both of whom have feats that break what logically makes sense like being faster than time or outracing the concept of death by being too fast.
And being virtually omnipresent throughout a major city may not be impressive for MFTL characters by itself, but you have to realize the narration stated Keystone became a utopia in the time of Superman's absence. Superman was gone for years within the storyline. So we're talking about omnipresence constantly for years... relentlessly patrolling the city and squashing crime. I seriously doubt Wally can match that. As a matter of fact, when he was amped fighting Zoom in Blitz and he covered "every inch of the planet" after circling it dozens of times, he stated in the same breadth that the battle only lasted for less than a second, and in spite of that he nearly used up all his energy.
Now of course, there's a large difference between covering every inch of the planet and covering every inch of a city, but by the same token, there's a large difference between less than a second and multiple years. And PC Wally was only able to accomplish this after circling the planet dozens of times, and his and Zooms presence wasn't felt everywhere at once... so KC Wally's feat is still greater. The difference between size is cancelled out by the length of time they occupied it, and simply passing through a location is wayyy less impressive than maintaining a constant presence there for a long period of time.
What the....? The feat isn’t even FTL........ being everywhere in a city is something a MHS character could do pretty easily, and stamina isn’t speed. Just because someone could maintain moving at Mach 1 for 3 years wouldn’t make them faster than someone who can move at LS for 3 days for instance. Yes, his stamina is great but the gap in speed is so great it doesn’t matter. Covering every inch of the earth once would already be tiers above being everywhere in a city(easily MFTL), but Wally and Zoom lapped the earth dozens of times covering every inch of the planet. It’s not even close, to imply this feat puts him above PC Wally is ridiculous. Like this is the guy who literally races across entire universes......
You’re gonna need to show better than covering a city quickly to impress me.
I'm sitting on a trove of information that I culled after blitzing through his appearances. You see, KC Wally livesin-between the ticks of a second, which at one point wasn't actually a figure of speech; as it turned out, in the 200th issue of Geoff Johns Flash vol. 2run, Zoom congratulated Wally on finally being able to get locked between the ticks of a second, which Zoom described as "his world". Wally was literally amped by the entire living Flash family just to reach this threshold, having absorbed every drop of kinetic energy from Jay and Bart (to the point neither would replenish for hours) and taking in Jesse's entire mantra. He went though all this to just to finally be able to see Zoom, and this is the domain that KC Flash lives in, i.e operates exclusively through.
I’m actually at a lost for words...... because this is so dumb. It IS a figure of speech, it just means time moves really slowly to them. And you call it an outlier for Wally? You realize there are similar statements for several flashes including Barry and even Jay?
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Is described as examining a bunch people between the ticks of a second.
Jay is in San Francisco, “but could be patrolling Moscow or new zealand before the second hand on your watch ticks again”.
“How fast is fast? Catch lightning in your hand sometime. Spend a month between the ticks of a second and tell me what sound you hear when you crack the sound barrier. Then we’ll talk.”
What’s interesting about the last scan is this is wally before terminal velocity, and became the speed freak he is now. Wally has more statements of this than his KC counterpart, and you have the audacity to call it outlier?
I chalk it up to a misstep on John's part but at worse, this simply shows that KC Wally and PC Wally are at least on the same speed tier.
Honestly..... I see nothing that puts him faster than Barry. But even if I agreed so what? Zoom effortlessly blitzing an amped Wally and Eobard fights off the entire flash family at the same time. And both of them hold back against their respective rivals, Eobard for most of his history couldn’t kill Barry because it would erase him from the timeline (this changed in flashpoint). Even after that, more than anything he just wants to be Barry’s friend, Gog is not Eobard’s friend so he wouldn’t have any reason for holding back. Same is the case with Hunter, he holds back because he wants to make Wally a better hero, and never outright tried to kill him. This RF would have no reason to hold back, and thus is going to have to face the full power of a mftl speedster that can quite literally wipe him from existence.
If you're of the opinion that Speed Force connection correlates with speed, then your conclusion insinuates that Bart is faster than Wally, which isn't true. Just because Bart has the connection doesn't mean he makes the best use of it. And even then, KC Wally is literally a living embodiment of the Speed Force. So you're back to square one.
LMAO, I find it hilarious you say that..... because not only does Wally admit Bart is faster himself, Barry and all the others combined.....
.....but is straight up the fastest man, not alive, but to have ever lived.
And he doesn’t just have a direct connection to the speed force like Wally, he literally IS the speed force. He has the entire speed force inside him which caused others to lose their connection to it as a result. KC Flash can’t be as fast as him, it’s not even close.
Kingdom Come Wally should be as fast as or faster than the amped version of Wally who fought Zolomon in Blitz, the one who absorbed all of Jay, Jesse and Bart's speed. This is due to the fact that KC Wally is literally a composite amalgamation of the three characters I just named, and lives in between the ticks of a second that PC Wally needed their energies to access.
Your scan mentioned Johnny quick, not Jesse Chambers. And no, he doesn’t scale to PC Wally given they’re literally not the same person. Quite frankly I’m not in the slightest impressed with this version of the flash.
KC Wally has such a thorough connection to the speed force that he literally is always in a state of motion.
Again so what? This is something entirely unique to him and not proof of some divine level of speed. Bart Allen(who I’ve proven is faster due to literally being the speed force) wasn’t like that, so it’s just something about him and not evidence of a stronger connection than PC Wally. Who has a spiritual connection to the speed force, and directly mainlines the speed force even being described as a “living conduit” for the infinite speed force.
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This is why Wally is so much faster than Barry, the guy who straight up created the speed force. He has a connection that pretty much no one else has with it. Which is a pretty useful thing to have, considering the speed force is infinite (1,2), being able to draw as much speed force as he needs is why few people are as fast as he is.
He also has a way better stamina feat than Wally who is the fastest of the speedsters, and speed stamina directly correlates to Speed Force connection.
Based on what?
Wally returned to his position as the fastest man alive and actually became the fastest person in the multiverse upon completing this feat. Faster than anyone had moved before includes both Thawne and Zolomon, two people whose speed Wally knows very well considering he fought both of them at the same time during Rogue War.
This is disingenuous.... because at the time of this statement Wally was in the Dark multiverse.
Showing a scan where Wally claims he’s the fastest in the multiverse..... when he’s in a different one entirely from the main one is like having Superman be on Jupiter, claim he’s the strongest on the planet and say that’s proof he is stronger than MMH.
And as I said before both Hunter and Eobard hold back against Flash, not to mention this logic completely debunks your argument of KC Flash being faster (or as fast as)than Wally. Using your logic I can easily point out how not only does Barry know KC Flash but is straight up friends with him.
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Yet, who does Barry consider as the fastest man alive?
This logic doesn’t help you in any way, as it just proves Wally is faster than KC Flash. And also the scans I shown prove further KC Flash and Wally aren’t the same person. As when talking about people from other realities the first person we see is KC Flash, and Barry reveals they’re friends.
If he was just a future version of PC Flash, this would have been said. But it’s clear the message is that PC Wally and KC Wally are entirely different people.
Even if somehow they were the same person, Wally has had several rectons to his character, especially with the whole Dr Manhattan removing ten years from everyone‘s lives which wouldn’t effect KC Flash given he’s from another earth. This would mean even if at one point they were the same person, such can no longer be the case.
Personally I take this as a hyperbolic statement, as there is no way he could know how fast everyone in the multiverse has ever moved. But if you buy it you must accept this just proves KC Flash isn’t as fast as him, because KC Flash is in the multiverse and Wally has apparently moved faster than he ever has according to that scan.
You can't agree with me that the Vine overrates speed and turn around and think this match can go any other way than me winning.
This is a dumb thing to say, I can agree something is generally not as important as people think but also assert that speed is going to be the biggest asset in a match of this nature. Speed IS the best thing one can have when dealing with someone who literally can erase you from existence, if two people have one shot hax the only thing that matters is who will use it first, not who has greater strength and durability.
A blitz is most certainly not on the table when I benefit from all the speed scaling you do, on top of shitting on you in terms of strength, durability and power and boasting comparable hax and versatility. Speed is just not going to carry you here when you're fighting an >INFINITE< number of characters in your speed tier, all swarming you and firing blasts with up to multi-star/multi-solar system level potency and hax that I'm about to expand on.
We’re not in the same tier, and the fact that RF has tons of hax you have no defense against is just icing on the cake.
Part 3
Eobard Thawne's powers are Negative Speed Force based both prior to Flashpoint and after it. There are many examples proving this but ultimately there would be no point since you're using a union of him and Zolomon, who's powers are actually time based.
Why would it matter to begin with...? Obviously his power is based on the negative speed force, I never said otherwise. But he has had time manipulation, pre flashpoint and in the N52 where his power is entirely time based.
You know, it's funny. Hunter manipulated Wally to inadvertently break the Force Barrier with Barry during Flash War in Rebirth, giving Zolomon control over several Forces (resulting in the Forever Forces and massively amping him) he was able to finally access Hypertime, which Gog can access as a regular part of his powerset. (Flash vol. 5 #50)
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Zolomon was actively outracing and beating up Barry and Wally at the same time, so this speaks volumes to either Gog's speed or time manipulation or both, considering he has a greater level of mastery of Hypertime in his standard Kingdom version. Either way you spin it Gog is most certainly not out of depth in this fight, in actuality it would be the opposite. Zolomon needs to be amped after tricking two people under a very specific set of circumstances in order to simply access the level of time freedom that Gog mastered in his regular base form.
What??? Yes, he needed to flashes to access hypertime so what? This is such a stupid argument, Gog’s power set was what allowed him to access hypertime, it has nothing to do with his speed or even general time manipulation. Hypertime is literally just like a hallway that has tons of doors allowing one to access other realities and points in time. That has nothing to do with offensive time hax like what Reverse Flash has, and all he’s done with hypertime is time travel which is something Reverse Flash does all the time with his sheer speed. This is a really dumb point, it doesn’t prove Gog’s speed in any way, shape, or form. Nor does it prove you can resist the hax RF has.
Gog is an anomaly in the timestream who threatened to destroy the space-time continuum after murdering Superman countless times over at various points in the time.
Which in Gog's case means he's a completely aberrant individual; he doesn't obey or conform to any law of time or metric of measuring time, and operates completely independent of time itself when traveling through Hypertime (which is it's own space).
Gog himself isn’t an anomaly, what was the paradox is how he was able to kill Superman repeatedly by going back in time every day.... that was confirmed to be something that shouldn’t happen.
And it’s revealed he was able to do it by accessing hypertime. This doesn’t proof he is beyond time, and isn’t proof he can resist RF slowing him down to a statue or outright stopping time. The fact is he has zero showings against someone who can manipulate time like Zoom, he has never met someone who can do what he can do and if you want to prove he can deal with it you need to provide some evidence. Cause this doesn’t cut it. Keep in mind the people in that scan didn’t know Gog had access to hypertime, in fact it was plot point for the comic that hypertime’s existence was a secret kept from humanity. That’s why Gog was able to do what he did, hypertime allowing him to travel to different points in time and kill Superman has nothing to do with resisting a time stop.
Furthermore, while it'd be cool to slow down Gog's time until he's a statue to you and you don't have to dodge his strikes till the next day, it'd be kind of awkward in this situation where an infinite number of time displacement clones every minute in the future for at least to 200 years converge their attacks on you.
And yes I mean converge their attacks, as in send their attacks with themselves back through time. Gog literally traveled back in time from 200 years later to kill a past version of himself with a blast.
So? Their attacks would be slowed down to a statue as well. That’s why you need to prove you can get around this, because it wouldn’t even matter if you could potentially keep up with Zoom, he controls how long it takes you to perform any given action.
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Making your attacks and you massively slower to the point you’re not even moving from Zoom’s perspective, in addition to his insane speed is something you need to prove you have the answer to.
So yeah, it's nifty that you can slow down one Gog or a group of Gogs with time manipulation to a standstill. But wouldn't it be a bitch when a Gog from 87 years, 5 months, 2 weeks, 6 days, 15 hours and 36 minutes from then appears behind you out of nowhere and turns you into charcoal with a multi-star level blast like KC Superman? Or blows a gaping hole through your torso like Mxy? Yeah it would.
Not when they’re statues too, or when their attacks will do nothing but potentially take each other out when RF would be intangible anyway.
Assuming this is localized time stop then the same counters apply really. And I don't really see what's stopping Gog from killing past and future versions of RF at separate points in the times over and over again to prevent this from happening or cause divergent timelines/paradoxes like he did to Superman.
RF is removed from the timeline entirely, changing the past it future would do nothing to him.
I’m not even sure what killing a future version could accomplish anyway? Even if you could do it(I doubt that) it just starts another fight between Gog and RF in another timeline and gives RF a better chance of straight up erasing Gog from existence ending the fight. Even if he kills a future version, it wouldn’t effect his past. So doing this would only hurt you.
Out of existence? This to be pretty obviously just Thawne aging Hot Pursuit until his body decayed. It won't work on Gog considering he's immortal in the sense of longevity and can't die of age.
I’m not sure why you’re attacking my wording when my message was clear, regarding Eobard can also rewind a person’s time as seen when he turned himself into a child as part of his experiment and then back into an adult.
I already addressed this, doing it to RF is useless it isn’t with Gog, plus Zoom’s speed means he can do it faster.
Neither TP nor soul manip would work. Gog resisted Obsidian who possessed the entire JSA, including Doctor Fate who's Helmet has extremely powerful wards in it (all scans are in the durability section of my opener). The wards in Fate's helmet incapacitated Godfrey's mind when he placed the helmet on in Legends #6. They reflected Kulak's TP assault back at him and caused a huge psychic backlash. Kulak's TP was strong enough to mind control the Spectre.
He controls people by exploiting their fears, and what does Obsidian say about Gog?
There was nothing to exploit, it’s less of a resistance feat and more of the conditions needed for Obsidian to take Gog over not being met. Plus, you left out how Dr.Fate’s helmet broke free when it wanted to do so.
So you need to provide so actual TP resistance. Keep in mind Eobard’s TP is so powerful it transcends time and space, given he was able to create an astral projection of himself from 500 years into the future. And the Sage force would only enhancehis already absurd abilities.
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If you can’t Gog gets mind controlled, and RF could just make him stop summoning clones from different points in time as shown he can stop it whenever he wants. Or force Gog to take himself out in another way.
The Gog's can heal each other but I'm not sure how this would improve your situation anyway.
Not against someone so fast they can statue Gog with sheer speed, on top of time manipulation to further make them incapable of doing anything. Though I agree phasing alone won’t put down Gog due to his clones.
So if any Gog gets killed in this match, not only would they have been replaced by the infinite number of Gog's pouring in from infinite alternate timelines and realities, any of the other Gog's present on the battlefield would just instantly bring them back to life.
Again, they won’t get the chance to do much of anything given the straight up unfair speed gap and time manipulation.
Also Thawne can resurrect but many times he didn't. Like when he first came back in Flash ('87) #75-79 impersonating Barry in order to torment Wally. He was time traveling using the Cosmic Treadmill.
He literally says he didn’t even meet Barry yet.... meaning this is an earlier version of Eobard that hasn’t died.
No character kills their opponent and sits around waiting for them to come back to life, lol. A win is a win even if your character has the ability to come back for a round 2 down the line.
I just meant it would be considered an incap more than anything which is still a win condition. He comes back to life similar to Doomsday is all I was saying.
he can simply transmute him into pure speed force and absorb it
Your scan of him turning Jay Garrick into speed force has him call down lightning from the sky to tag him first, which obviously will never work.
This honestly doesn't seem like true existence erasure to me. You yourself argued Thawne's powers as time manipulation based after Flashpoint, so it would lend to my point
How does that prove anything when this scan is from before flashpoint?
It seems like he is deleting someone from their timeline/timestream making it so they never existed there.
Which is a type of existence erasure.
With Gog having Hypertime that allows him to access clones across infinite timelines and realities, this is like dumping a bucket of water on the Sun in order to extinguish it.
I HIGHLY disagree with this assumption.
First off let me establish the fact that the Gog that has access to hypertime and the one that has access to clones are entirely different versions of Gog. The Gog that has clones relies entirely on grabbing clones from different points in time.
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You’re assuming because Gog has access to hypertime he then can call clones of himself other timelines but you can’t prove this. You have no basis for thinking that he can when he’s only ever used hypertime for moving to different points in time. You can’t even prove alternate versions of Gog would even want to help Gog, they could have an entirely different history and not share his goals. All you can even remotely rely on is Gog from different points in the same timeline to help, as he’s already done this. Also, we never see how long it takes to summon clones because it happened off panel. As soon as Superman shows up to fight Gog he already had them coming out of his portal.
And just because there are “infinite timelines” doesn’t necessarily mean there are infinite timelines with Gog, that’s more speculation on your part. Ultimately, when he’s only ever used hypertime for time travel and another version(that can time travel without it) has only ever brought clones from different points in time I feel it’s a huge stretch to think he can call forth an infinite number of Gogs, from an infinite amount of timelines here. And since all the Gogs will be from the same timeline all it takes is for Zoom to erase one, after that ALL Gogs will cease to exist given they never existed to begin with.
He absorbed heat vision from Superman and stated it was using this absorption ability that he killed Future Amazo.
Gog needs time to copy(as you even said, which is why you said a drawn out battle isn’t a good idea). But as far as I know, Amazo needs to actually see someone to copy their abilities. RF can vibrate at a frequency making him invisible, as shown when he vibrates himself to invisibility and kills Iris right in front of her).
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That said, he could just use the still force to drain his super speed even if it was to be copied kinda similar to what happened to amazo.
Summary
Despite what you may say Reverse Flash IS faster, nothing has changed. And no amount of scaling to people in separate continuities will change that. By feats, I’m not even sure KC Flash is faster than Barry, let alone faster than Wally. And even if he was, Bart literally has the entire speed force that KC Flash is drawing energy from and tapping into a small portion of. You can’t win a speed debate, don’t even try.
Besides the already blatantly unfair speed advantage being in my favor, RF is fully capable of hurting Gog.
Intangibility means Gog’s staff won’t tag Zoom.
Gog has never encountered anyone as hax and broken as Zoom, he has no counters to most of the hax here.
I think Zoom is fully capable of erasing Gog from the timeline, which would end the fight considering you can’t prove he can/would summon Gog’s from other realities just because hypertime can access them.
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