Beastmen vs Night Elves

The beastmen have replaced the Orcs of Grom hellscream in a combined warherd. Their mission is to destroy and raze the world tree. However, they have no prior knowledge but are expecting some kind of resistance. The Night elves again know there's an invasion coming, but know not of whom or what they face.

Map down below shows where the Beastmen are invading, the same area where Grom's horde was invading the woods. The Night elves are as strong as when Grom invaded and the Beastmen versions are right before the end times begin.

Commanding Forces for the Beastmen

Supreme Commander - Gorthor the Beastlord

Supporting Commanders/Unit Commanders - Khazrak The One-Eye, Taurox, Morghur the Master of Skulls, Malagor the Dark Omen,

This mega warherd is strictly just the troops from all these beastmen leaders and are now rallied and moving as one warherd.

Commanding Forces for the Night Elves

Supreme Commander - Cenarius

Supporting Commanders/Unit Commanders - Illidan Stormrage ( pre demon ), Tyrande Whisperwind ( EOS for Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne ), Malfurion Stormrage ( EOS for Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne ), Shandris Feathermoon, and Maiev Shadowsong.

Rules

• No Backstabbing for the Beastmen they are all to follow Gorthor, but he is willing to listen to their advice.
• Win by Beastmen army being killed or the World tree being destroyed or burned
• No BFR
• No outside interference
• The Beastmen arrive in 3 days, the Night elves have 3 days to prep as the beastmen march towards them.
• All creatures for the beastmen are allowed if they were part of the army and will have no effect on other beastmen just night elves.
• All lore allowed
• Random Encounter

People whom might be interested

@killerwasp@savageslayer@mightythunderbird@penderor@eisenfauste@pern@thenaughtytitan@kingant27@boringperson@lettsplay10@citizensentry@merulezall@bastets@jwwprod@detrolord@harbingerofmomz@DedmanWalkin@vortex1456789@traskindustries@tularianroman@sirfizzwhizz@reikai@wut@monsterstomp@zaied@cpt_nice@rpgesus@ghostrider2@dygoboy@pipxeroth@i_like_swords@warlordeternal@redzkz@decaf_wizard@tparks@jardinain2@dagit@wewlad80@ussj3071@aotd@army2442@john_7547@thekillerklok@dust_hawk@kgb725@rockette@supermanforever@dottiestmoon@darthsenju@solomonthenotsowise

Combined warherd... do... do you mean like.. all the beastmen? Because.. there are a stupidly high amount of beastmen in the world. Or they replace Grom's Orcs, Beastmen for Orc? If its the later, or even like.. two-three beastmen per Orc, I'd say the NE should take it well enough.

But if its the former.......... They literally outnumber the trees and just walk towards the bigga tree.

@wut: I think he means all the beastmen leaders have their warherds combined and that's the number we are given..... which is still too much. Considering we went over the fact that Gothor's warherd alone out numbers the entire alliance population 2 to 1....... That's like idk phucking 10 to 1 vs night elves. Beastmen might be dumb at times, but under this leadership I'd say they take it rather easily. They have all their beasts and shit and Morghur alone soloed the Wood elves so meh!

but no SWA you might wanna clear this up ha

@killerwasp: @wut: It's everyone's warherd that I listed combined into one? Is there really that many beastmen?

When did the beastmen defeat the wood elves??

@solarwavealpha: Alright well I still give it to the Beastmen regardless, unless they are jobbing. However, each leader is knows how hit and run tactics works, how ambushes works, how laying siege to something works or at least Gorthor does, and all of them have been in plenty of battles and know how to operate their troops fairly well. The Night elves indeed have some great leaders, but overall I don't see them fairing any better tactical wise or strategy wise and pulled something new that the beastmen haven't seen or dealt with before.

The amount of creatures mixed with infantry and so on gives them an edge as the Night elves as a whole is more of a patrol force rather than a full fledged fighting force at least at this point in time, so I feel the beastmen could easily overwhelm and route their foes before they amount any kind of resistance.

It was explained in the end times that most of the wood elf lands had been corrupted and rotten and that in one of the final reveals, it was revealed the Oak of Ages ( similar to that of the world tree ) was full of maggots and gunk. It took Malekith and a united elf force to finally flush them out, but by then it didn't really matter as the end times had already began.

@solarwavealpha: In the End Times. Although the Wood Elves and Beastmen can be summed up with, 'Oh, crap, those two races are things.. lets just drop a footnote here to explain them.'

Probably Beastmen, for reasons already stated.

Beastmen take it under these conditions, but if they were against the entire Alliance I could see the Alliance pulling a win honestly.

On top of the large numbers advantage Beastmen have (Warcraft's given population numbers are actually absurdly low for the size of their territories according to the RPG books) Morghur is going to seriously screw up the Night Elves' druidic magic.

Just by walking through the forest he can corrupt it, and MUCH faster than most things in the Warcraft universe. The water will turn to poison and the trees will twist into carnivorous mockeries of what they once were. Elves who get too close to him may get transformed into abominations and end up fighting for the Beastmen, and their nature allies will be driven mad and turn against them. Morghur is the raw corruption of Chaos incarnate. He doesn't need to cast spells, his mere existence is death to all things natural.

See wut, he gets it! Beastmen RULE!!! XD

I woudl rather see Krakanrok the Black fight the Night Elves tbh

@decaf_wizard: Get those chaos trash dragons out of here. Beastmen eat the elves for breakfast!

I am rather sure Dragon Ogres eat what they want for breakfast

@decaf_wizard: They don't, ask Settra.

Who is that? Nagash's fleshlight?

@decaf_wizard: The True king of the Tomb Kings, not broken a$$ Nagash. Settra.... down below ( third image is him and Nagash fighting it out cause Settra aint no puss )

Soloed Kholek in a 1 vs 1 duel. Yeah a skeleton boney guy who is prolly no taller than our basketball players cut off his head. Get Gud sun!

@killerwasp: Notice how it says: Humbling Of Settra

Nagash's fleshlight

@killerwasp:

Beastmen are the true Children of Chaos. The pathetic man-filth just haven't realized their place on the food chain yet.

@decaf_wizard: Naw, Nagash just hasn't yet learned how to bend the knee. Your lovely Dragon-Ogres are still dead. :D

Yeah man-filth!! Although to be fair I never really liked Beastmen being under chaos's thumb. Kinda wish they splintered off which I'm working on/writing a story in them doing so lol. Beastmen need no puny gods, they just need blood! XD

@killerwasp:

In a way they did. They got their own separate army book. I don't mind them worshiping the Chaos Gods since it's so intrinsic to their existence, but I do wish the writers at GW gave them more respect. At least one Beastman Everchosen in the history of the world would've been nice. Morghur the Everchosen would be epic.

One of my favorite things to do in Total War: Warhammer is to have my Warherd turn against Archaon after the dust settles and show him who is truly deserving of the gods' favor.

@metaljimmor:

Oh i was glad when they got their own book, but I meant chaos shouldn't necessary be part of their lore. I figured they could go for more of a shadow lore and beast lore as they fight over the dark woods against the others, but meh I wish Morghur was displayed more in the series before they decided to end it.... It's like they forgot theres more races than just the fucking four main ones.

Actually i make it my personal mission from the start to hunt chaos down lol

@killerwasp:

I get what you're saying. Beastmen as more of an evil forest faction than a Chaos faction. For me I always kind of liked the "We serve Chaos, but Chaos does not serve us" concept to them. It makes them feel more... Not really sympathetic, but understandable? More pitiable. I always thought there was a lot of story potential there with how screwed Beastmen are in their lives. Unable to build a real civilization and looked down on by everyone else, even their own gods. Filled with hatred and envy toward mankind that never stops, even in the "peaceful" moments of their lives. There's fuel for a fairly deep characterization of a barbaric warrior culture that has lost everything, but all GW wanted to present them as were disgusting savages without any depth beyond "we kill".

@metaljimmor: RPG books are non canon m

OT as for the thread I’m confused, Grom hellacream never invaded Night elf territory, so it’s hard to establish what period night elves we’re using, seeing as Kaldorei Empire have a few mages that could solo

@royal_warrior: As Grom was not around during the Kaldorei Empire, to try and say its the Kaldorei Empire is extreme debating dishonesty, more to the point, if you were to sit and think about it, he is likely referring to the time Grom cut down numerous trees and beat Cenarius. Which he did in the Ashenvale Forest which is Night Elf territory..

@wut: but it’s not clear, he has Night elves as title and Grom never really invaded ashenvale

If it’s the whole night elves races they should stomp considering what even farondis is capable of but if it’s just the northern Tryande Night elves then it seems quite unfair

@royal_warrior: He most certainly did invade Ashenvale. If force A invades force B's territory, starts taking all their resources, killing their people when they try to stop them and even kill their deity, that is an invasion. Not a mild misunderstanding.

@royal_warrior:

They're also the only numbers we have to work with. Unless you have a more canon source?

Grom did invade Kalimdor. It was a major event in WC3's story. He didn't know it was already occupied, but he did march forces into their territory and start cutting down trees. We're dealing with WC3's Night Elves and the Beastmen are starting on the eastern side of Ashenvale where the Warsong Lumbermill now sits.

Edit: Apparently I type too slow. lol

@wut: I don’t think your remembering it correctly, “killing their people”? Seriously? The night elves destroyed the Warsong clan so hard, it wasn’t an invasion because Grom didn’t inteionally invade, Orcs back then had no idea what Azeroth was and he was just using it for lumber not knowing he was in Night elf territory, not to mention the warsong clan wasn’t even functioning basically and wasn’t anywhere close to an army

@royal_warrior: Uh, no, the Night Elves didn't. The Warsong Clan, once turned Fel again, wasn't stopped until Thrall and Jaina teamed up against them.

Grom starts cutting the wood, not knowing he is in Night Elf land.

When the Night Elves start trying to stop him, does he go, "Oh, there are people here, and this is apparently their land, we should leave."

No, he instead kills any that attack him and builds the settlement anyways. Occupying land that was theirs. That is an INVASION.

Then, in the next mission, when Cenarius attacks him for defiling their land and building settlements to occupy it, what does he do? He fights him, then rather then retreat in the face of Cenarius, he becomes Fel just to beat him in this war, or as he says, "The demigod has fallen. The Warsong is supreme!" Yeah, the warsong truly sounds like it is fractured and barely a force all right.

I do not care if you think the OP is fair or not. Instead, suggest to him a different time period instead of purposely ignoring the OP's intent.

@metaljimmor:

I get what you're saying. Beastmen as more of an evil forest faction than a Chaos faction. For me I always kind of liked the "We serve Chaos, but Chaos does not serve us" concept to them.

no no no i get what you're say! haha I never got the feeling from them. :(

Not really sympathetic, but understandable? More pitiable.

Agreed!

More pitiable. I always thought there was a lot of story potential there with how screwed Beastmen are in their lives. Unable to build a real civilization and looked down on by everyone else, even their own gods.

Agreed, I feel like building though for them defeats their inner purpose as they love to roam around more than well farm and shit. I could never see them build a city, but occupy and loot it. However, I'd love to see them in large masses fighting over major cities filled with orcs and chaos forces. It'd be nice to see some large cluster fucks haha

There's fuel for a fairly deep characterization of a barbaric warrior culture that has lost everything, but all GW wanted to present them as were disgusting savages without any depth beyond "we kill".

Well tbh GW hasn't been making the best choices as a whole and yeah. I think they wanted them to start off as that but as the lore grew them they tried to keep as "we kill" but they were imo expanding as in "we lost our lands due to humanity, so they must die." kinda stuff. Either way, I feel beastmen as a whole could of went evil neutral or just neutral neutral, but that's just me ha

@killerwasp said:

Would the beastmen struggle even if we know of what the Night elves can do?

Good to know, how would the beastmen do though?

@wut: your getting your sources from Warcraft 3 which is massively outdated, we even see the broken warsong clan and how the night elves demolished them after the death of Cenarius

@killerwasp:

Personally I would have liked to see a story of a Beastman gave that was left in the woods by it's human parents. Then once it grew it became obsessed with it's former parents, filled with hatred for abandoning it and envy for it's normal human brothers and sisters that live a happy life, and came into power as a Beastlord, starting a campaign to destroy the home it never had.

There's a lot you could do with a character like that, possibly alternating between the Beastman and the parents' perspectives. Seeing the Beast's thought process as well as the horror of the parents as they realize the child they couldn't bring themselves to kill had returned seeking vengeance on them and their community.

Anyway, we're probably getting off topic. We shouldn't derail the thread.

@metaljimmor: I don't care if the thread gets derailed, just as long as you answer the question. :)

Would the beastmen struggle against the night elves or no?

@royal_warrior: Congrats, they managed to beat up a Warsong that was already broken after the loss of Grom. Much impressed. Now, as he is using the WC3 setting, that is the time period that is being used. Get over it. Stop talking nonsense. Debate with integrity.

@solarwavealpha:

In the scenario you posited, it depends on what you consider struggling. Thousands will likely die, but the sheer number of Beastmen in any given warherd is staggering. Numbers in general in Warhammer are absurd and unsustainable, but GW likes to handwave things like logistics and population growth in favor of Rule of Cool.

Lone night elves can probably solo dozens of ungors at a time due to experience and combat skill, but once you get into gors it becomes trickier as gors have a big strength advantage to compensate for the lack of skill and experience. Minotaurs are even worse and would likely be a nightmare in close combat, which evens out the frailty of the ungors. And of course you have Ghorgons that butcher huge chunks of night elves at a time and can likely win 1v1 against stone giants and the like, or the jabberslythe that drives people who look at it insane. Night elves have an inherent magic to them from the Well of Eternity as well, so I personally think it'd be fairly easy for cygors to see them with their magic eye, making those monsters more accurate as long ranged artillery than they would otherwise. That's just a possibility though.

The biggest issue for the night elves is that this is a campaign, not a single battle. Which means they will only have the forces they can muster in three days, not their total numbers. They'll have a strong defensive line with their glaive launchers and forest allies, but I can't imagine the night elves have any concept of how massive the force that is coming will be.

The night elves would have an advantage in magic if Morghur wasn't here. The night elves rely heavily on druidism for the bulk of their spells, and Morghur is living corruption in a Beastman form. His very presence will twist the natural world into something evil and broken that the druids will have a hard time working with. Meanwhile this will only make things easier for Malagor and his bray-shamans.

Once the night elves are forced to retreat and regroup it gets even worse for them as Morghur's corruption will quickly spread through Ashenvale, turning the entire forest into a Felwood 2.0. The longer Morghur is around the more damage he does to the forest and to the night elves' nature allies, and any elf that gets too close to him could be transformed into a hideous mutant that just bolsters the Beastmen numbers.

Malfurion and Cenarius are the two figures that can change this to favor the elves, but Cenarius is vulnerable to corruption, and Morghur has a history of manipulating nature gods with his darkness to get them to make terrible mistakes and become evil. Worst case scenario? Cenarius manages to slay Morghur and gets corrupted by his blood in the process, turning him against his own followers.

@metaljimmor: That is a nice break down, however as you place Morghur as the MVP, what about the beastmen leadership, another viner said that the the few beastmen in charge are going to make things easier due to their knowledge on how to give orders and use fairly simple tactics?

@solarwavealpha:

Beastmen are largely unintelligent, but Gorthor and Khazrak are renowned for their ability to use actual tactics beyond "CHARGE!" Rather than being a massive asset to their side, I'd say it's more their intelligence prevents the Beastmen from walking directly into an obvious trap and being slaughtered like they normally would. They are cunning tacticians, and Gorthor actually had an understanding of strategy, but they still aren't brilliant military minds by the standards of other races. Just enough to make decent use of the Beastmen's numbers and physical power so all their advantages aren't wasted.

@metaljimmor: So I take it you and KW agree then on that? @killerwasp? What about you @wut what you think of the beastmen leadership?

@solarwavealpha: I think the Beastmen are furry mooks that belong at nerd conventions and should leave the fighting to the real warriors of chaos.

@wut: Alright then, good to know.

Now that I think about it, I think this would just be the Legion invasion all over again, especially with Morghur in the fray. So the Night Elves really couldn't do it on their own, would be a killer last stand on Mount Hyjal though, and Morghur getting near Nordrassil(that is the World Tree on Hyjal right?) would be a scary thing for Azeroth as a whole.

@solarwavealpha:

The beastmen would struggle with the fact that like the wood elves most of the night elves would rely heavily on range tactics. However anything that happens in melee combat and the beastmen would curb them so hard into the ground it wouldn't even be funny.

That would be an interesting story tbh. However writing it would be an issue hahaa XD

Metal is basically right in the sense beastmen don't generally tend to use tactics other than causing fear before being seeing, hence bray herds. However, I think Khazrak One-Eye and Gorthor have proven to be actually very skilled commanders even in the WH verse considering A Gorthor died at the end not cause of his lack of tactics but because he won a duel and GW was a POS and decided to have him "suddenly" lose due to some bs reasons and that Khazrak consistently out did Imp commanders rather easily until what's his face decided he had a enough of Khazrak's bull shit and took him on, the two of them exchanged wins and loses all the time which again proves Khazrak can not only keep the beastmen together when they lose, but learn on how and why he lost and thus prepare to launch another attack again. These factors along with many others are far better than what I've seen the night elves as a whole do.

@wut said:

several night elf characters clear all of those factions by themselves, like malfurion who controls nature and the storm itself can summon tornadoes, turn trees against them etc, tyrande who can simply call nuke rays from the moon and destroy them all, no point mentioning illidan who is outerversal at this point from legion

Above is nonesense again, especially mentioning Illidan's legion version... when the description clearly states it's Illidan before gaining the soul of a demon, vastly before Legion.

Cenarius is the strongest character here, but he does have a rival in Morghur. In a fight Cenarius is far more effective than Morghur in most matchups, but the issue with Morghur is how he affects and counters factions based on nature like this. Cenarius could rush up to Morghur, crush him, and then he and the entire forest would be nuked with corruption. On the other hand, if Cenarius doesn't do that, Morghur will just walk through the lands and passively corrupt the night elves' lands. And the issue with characters like Cenarius, Malfurion, Tyrande, and just night elves in general, is that much like wood elves their power comes from nature. If Morghur twists it against them they have no chance. Between the forces commanded by Gorthor, Morghur, Malagor, Taurox and Khazrak they also have multiple massive armies, giving them more than enough numbers to expend to night elf arrows and other distance weaponry before they close in.