At What Point Does Goku Become Light Speed?

Dragon Ball

@cocacolaman@floridaman29@whatamiseeing@thekappa78@oreoghoul@alextheboss@worldofruin6@chronicplane@edgelord91@mevbi@captfalcon725@jrazzle20@rikuyamaha@paulpogba@manofthunderbolts65@ouroborik@blueapril@ouroborik:@mike_strike10@oceanmaster21:@cbarlion@whitemoon@godlyshinigami@themadtitan6000@chairkage@maalik@thefinisher31@bob74h@sailormoonrock@ronan6996@frostaku@demarg:@king_isshiki@red_leader

when he used Kaio-Ken against Vegeta IMO

Saiyan saga

Even if you assume it took piccolo's blast 60 seconds to reach the moon with a PL of 400

Goku with a PL of 8000+kaioken clears it

I guess you can kinda argue it before but I think Namek is where it’s easiest to back anyone being Lightspeed.

In the same arc he was going at ~mach 10-17 without kaioken while trying his hardest. No way he was that fast there.

Any of the characters in Namek being light speed would break a lot of the arc's story. They took hours flying around the planet and no one could just zip around the planet instantly to find the dragon balls.

Zeno couldn't see Dyspo properly without aid of technology IIRC

This is a hard question to answer since Toriyama was very inconsistent with speed.

By scaling off the moon bust: saiyan saga

Going off of feats described as light: namek saga

By going off unquestionable feats and statements: ToP

End of the Saiyan saga. Travel speed wise it took place later, but DBZ characters always had much faster combat speed than travel speed. Combat speed-wise, even Kid Goku was specifically confirmed to be faster than lightning for example. And it is rather common for characters to be much faster in combat than while traveling across longer distances. A lot of One Piece characters are FTL in combat, but you will never see Gear 5 Luffy zip around the planet in seconds for example.

There's no way Goku could fly seven times around the Earth in a single second at any point before the Buu Saga.

@nwname: their travel speed is far lower than their combat speed, this is a well known phenomenon in dragon ball

Unless OP was talking about travel speed alone

Not really, its a headcanon widely accepted on forums like this that actually doesn't hold up in canon.

They blitz each other with their "travel speed" many times. Infact there are several examples of Goku blitzing Nappa's perception with his flight and running speed right after he gets back to Earth.

Gallery

Saiyan, but the most definitive is Namek Era

Either when he arrived on Namek and fought the Ginyu Force or when he went SSJ

Probably namek SSJ

I mean they do have Light speed feats at that point. Vegeta could track FTL ships but not Frieza, Goku dodged meteors at FTL speeds, Frieza’s beams are described as light and were invisible to Piccolo (who can see his own relativistic Ki blasts) and Goku could dodge them. Goku’s Kamehameha blasted him out of a solar system at FTL speeds and he can move/manipulate it. I think there’s plenty to argue they are Light speed by Namek.

I don't remember any of that except ssj goku reacting to frieza's beams which would be relativistic feat if you think frieza beams were light speed (i dont think they were described that way in manga). Are all these anime only feats? I know meteor one is at least.

@nwname: Nappa is light speed by scaling

@nwname: The Kamehameha and dodging rocks are anime. Vegeta’s Ki sensing is manga, he could sense the Ginyu force moving in their FTL space pods but Frieza was too fast for him to keep up with. Goku also reacted to Frieza’s beams prior to being a super saiyan, it was just more effortless at that point IIRC.

It’s guidebooks that refer to the beams as light, although being too fast for Piccolo (again who has relativistic perceptions at least) helps lend credence to that.

What scaling? He was blitzed several times back to back by goku flying at way below light speed.

Can you post the ship and frieza one?

Ship scaling is wack and they definitely don’t travel that fast

@nwname: Nappa got blitzed by Mach 1.5. Nimbus. Also the ship tracking by King Kai is, anime only. Further Namekian ship is 476x the speed of light and Capsule Corp Ship 2,221x, as shown in manga.

Vegeta is fightened by Frieza's "travel" speed:

sayan arc using kaioken

Bruh, this argument again? Nappa was just gonna stomp on Gohan and Goku got there on time. How does that indicate nimbus is faster?

Also, daily reminder that Raditz dodged a relativistic beam.

@takenstew22: It means Nimbus is faster than Nappa can kick

Or... Nappa wasn't expecting Goku to come in and save his kid. It ain't that deep. If Nimbus' speed was that relevant Goku would've used it in a fight a long time ago. There's a reason Goku almost stopped using it completely after Saiyan arc.

@takenstew22: It means supressed Nappa isn't as fast as LS

@vortextitan: Not LS, but def relativistic due to scaling off of Piccolo's moon beam.

@takenstew22: But the attack wasn't the same and even if it has the same speed. It has to be an outlier, since every feat is far below that.

The cloud has a confirmed speed and Nappa got out speed by it meaning ftl wank is put to an end

Because nimbus got gohan before Nappa could hit him? Getting blitzed by mach 1.5 is low end but it is what it is.

That beams speed is really unknown, its just people scaling it to another beam. And Raditz barely moved inches while the beam moved meters. Even if we assumed it was as fast as the other beam (no hard proof of this exists) it would mean raditz moved 10s of times slower than a relativistic beam.

Goku himself is faster than nimbus, but goku being faster than nimbus does not prove nappa is too. Nimbus moves faster than his kick.

just a short post cause i only got some mbs internet

Nimbus being that slow doesnt make much sense since Piccolo with clothes didnt have any problems when it moved from korrins tower to the z warriors which is much much faster than mach 1.5.

What about old king piccolo being fater than the sound barrier? Or Tao Pais Pais famous 10.000km/h? Guidebooks ftw right? riight? riiiiiiiiiiiight?

It needs a bigger post but wont have internet for a few weeks.

Meteors:

Kamehameha:

Should be noted that in the same arc Goku was manipulating and dodging the same blast pretty regularly during training. For Frieza, this is Vegeta being able to keep track of FTL ships:

This is Vegeta completely losing track of Frieza due to his speed:

This is Frieza's death beams below and here is Goku dodging them:

I don't have the relevant guidebook extracts for you but can grab them in a bit. I think it's important to note that a weaker Piccolo displayed near lightspeed perceptions during the saiyan saga. Even if you think his movement speed was fodder back then, it just isn't debatable that Piccolo could perceive his own blast that hit the moon pretty instantly, and a faster Piccolo literally could not perceive Frieza's attack because of it's speed.

@thedailybagel: It's anime filler and the ship is 2,221x the speed of light

Episode 50 of DBZ was not considered a filler episode, I also don't know where you came to that number honestly. Why do you think it was that fast?

@thedailybagel: It never happened in the manga. We know the speed of the Namekian ship, it traveled from earth to Jupiter in 5 seconds in the manga and Kai, double confirmation. Which is 476x the speed of light and it took 34 days to get to Namek and the Capsule Corpse Spaceship only took 6 days. Therebefore it's 5,666x faster thus 2,697,x the speed of light. A small correction on the time frame

@vortextitan:

It never happened in the manga.

Neither does Buu busting galaxies or Frieza busting an additional planet in his fight with Goku, neither of which come from "filler" episodes. There's a reason the two mediums need to be specified in debates, the anime is generally more impressive than the manga, otherwise there wouldn't be a point in differentiating them.

We know the speed of the Namekian ship, it traveled from earth to Jupiter in 5 seconds in the manga and Kai, double confirmation. Which is 476x the speed of light and it took 28 days to get to Namek and the Capsule Corpse Spaceship only took 6 days. Therebefore it's 4,666x faster thus 2,221x the speed of light.

I don't recall a time frame being mentioned although you are right, totally forgot about it instantly reaching Jupiter.

@thedailybagel: It shows 5 seconds and the manga 5 panels. So its 5 seconds as time frame

@thedailybagel said:

Meteors:

Kamehameha:

Should be noted that in the same arc Goku was manipulating and dodging the same blast pretty regularly during training. For Frieza, this is Vegeta being able to keep track of FTL ships:

This is Vegeta completely losing track of Frieza due to his speed:

This is Frieza's death beams below and here is Goku dodging them:

I don't have the relevant guidebook extracts for you but can grab them in a bit. I think it's important to note that a weaker Piccolo displayed near lightspeed perceptions during the saiyan saga. Even if you think his movement speed was fodder back then, it just isn't debatable that Piccolo could perceive his own blast that hit the moon pretty instantly, and a faster Piccolo literally could not perceive Frieza's attack because of it's speed.

That "ship tracking" involves a huge distance though so its not really a speed feat and doesn't need Vegeta to be quick. Same as how people tracking distant comets is not a speed feat, time frame involved is not short. I think a lot of the confusion about speed feats comes from using speed (meters per second) as the unit for reaction times (correct unit is seconds). Basically what i'm trying to say is, Vegeta does not need to have superhuman reactions to sense and track distance spaceships while he does to track Frieza moving behind which would take way less than a second. Same as piccolo's beam, its duration isn't that short.

Anime solar system on though is a very clear FTL travel speed feat. I don't know what exactly is going on in that meteor one though, is he really reacting to them there? If so that is an insane reaction feat unless goku was them from very far away.

@nwname:

That "ship tracking" involves a huge distance though so its not really a speed feat and doesn't need Vegeta to be quick. Same as how people tracking distant comets is not a speed feat, time frame involved is not short. I think a lot of the confusion about speed feats comes from using speed (meters per second) as the unit for reaction times (correct unit is seconds). Basically what i'm trying to say is, Vegeta does not need to have superhuman reactions to sense and track distance spaceships while he does to track Frieza moving behind which would take way less than a second. Same as piccolo's beam, its duration isn't that short.

Vegeta could also detect the Ginyu force touching down on the planet instantly, it’s not so much a speed feat for himself but a feat for the speed his ki sensing can detect, whereas he totally lost track of Frieza. Although I do see your point.

I heavily disagree with Piccolo’s example though. He can clearly see and manipulate his own Ki blasts which travel at relativistic speeds. It’s like if someone could shoot bullets, observe them move and manipulate them in the air - those would be perception and reaction feats. Frieza’s blast being too quick for a much faster Piccolo to even see (and specifically comment on Vegeta being fast enough to see it) is plenty to claim it’s at least FTL imo.

Anime solar system on though is a very clear FTL travel speed feat.

There’s also Goku reacting to more powerful Kamehamehas using Kaio-Ken during training on the same ship.

I don't know what exactly is going on in that meteor one though, is he really reacting to them there? If so that is an insane reaction feat unless goku was them from very far away.

Basically he’s dangling off the back of the same space ship whilst it’s travelling through space. In the Gif he’s dodging meteors that the ship is flying past. I don’t think he can see them in advance because the ship is traveling many times FTL, you can see him jolt out the way instinctively as he flies past them at that speed.

Personally, I don't even think it's really deniable by Namek from sheer power creep if nothing else. Light is Mach 874,030. Kid Goku was FTE to FTE fighters/bullet timers in the days when power levels were almost exclusively in the low hundreds and moon busting was new, so how fast do you think he had to be by Super Saiyan when the power levels were up in the millions and planet busting was becoming a 9-5 job for minimum wage?

@cocacolaman: he was FTL when he was SSJ. He scales to Frieza at his strongest.

He probably became LS while training in his spaceship pod for the Namek arrival

My problem with scaling beam speed is not all beams are equally fast, and stronger beam doesn't mean faster as shown multiple times. It can, its just not a necessary implication. And the very explicit speed feats like snake way and flying around Namek doesn't place them anywhere near light speed. If they could move around near light speed a lot of things in the story wouldn't make sense really, like Goku would come back to earth in seconds to fight vegeta and nappa and there wouldnt be long searches for dragon balls on Namek. The way DBZ characters fight makes it impossible to place their combat/perception speed significantly above their flight/movement speed too as they frequently charge into each other and move faster than other characters can perceive.

Fair on anime ones though, based on what i saw (im manga only) anime versions are stronger in every way. They have way better speed feats, way better strength feats and more (and way better) planet busting feats.

@nwname:

My problem with scaling beam speed is not all beams are equally fast, and stronger beam doesn't mean faster as shown multiple times. It can, its just not a necessary implication.

I don't really see how that applies here though. I'm using one example of Piccolo being able to perceive his own beam which very explicitly goes from Earth to the Moon instantly. I'm comparing that to one of Frieza's which was too fast for a more powerful Piccolo to see, the implication being that one was allot faster than the other, and the slower one was near light speed.

If you mean Frieza's death beams are not equally fast when it comes to Goku dodging them, I would also disagree. His Death Beams being really fast was mentioned multiple times so their speed is a key feature. Piccolo was shocked that Vegeta could even see them and it's why Frieza freaked out when Goku was able to actually dodge them.

And the very explicit speed feats like snake way and flying around Namek doesn't place them anywhere near light speed. If they could move around near light speed a lot of things in the story wouldn't make sense really, like Goku would come back to earth in seconds to fight vegeta and nappa and there wouldnt be long searches for dragon balls on Namek. The way DBZ characters fight makes it impossible to place their combat/perception speed significantly above their flight/movement speed too as they frequently charge into each other and move faster than other characters can perceive.

I mean is this not the case for basically all media? Same stuff can be said for everyone from Flash to Silver Surfer or Invincible, like in context it makes no sense for guys like Angstrom or Cecil to be able to react to Mark launching himself at them when he's repeatedly displayed MFTL travel speed. There are always going to be some inconsistencies in power or speed stuff for dramatic tension or what the writer is trying to convey. You could also argue that Goku's power is increased by like millions of times from snake way to the end of Namek anyway, which is what power levels would have you believe (as dumb as that is in practice).

Fair on anime ones though, based on what i saw (im manga only) anime versions are stronger in every way. They have way better speed feats, way better strength feats and more (and way better) planet busting feats.

Yeah anime is way more impressive in every way. Definitely allot easier to argue light speed, Goku and Buu also show lightspeed stuff in their fight in the anime.

End of Namek Saga

Well the Red Ribbon weapons are stated to be lasers and Goku dodged them so pre Dbz

If it is not in the manga, it is not canon.

It wasn't considered filler because?

Toriyama was involved in most "fillers" and the filler concept from DBZ seems to be kept in DBS.