oh god. lol. willing to accept other opinions? i'm not looking for your approval. lol you lost me after accusing me of being factually wrong. lol. common sense dictates that in 35 issues there would be some degree of compassion demonstrated, at least once, at some point. it was a general overview of her characterization during the entire run that i was discussing, and not a literal statement. the last 2 issues of the run were the only issues where she was characterized in the manner i described being interested in.

making diana another of zeus' children adds nothing to the character other than name dropping for uneducated readers who need to associate her with a big name they may have heard in freshman english class. she's just another illegitimate child of his now, with unnecessary extra power that comes from a man -- meaning a man is defining her. and it's also problematic because it conflicts with greek mythology. greek mythology means nothing to the avg american but some of us respect that as ancient/classic literature. he [Azz] may as well have just claimed she was Jesus' sister to me. same thing. it's stupid and implies that already being one of DC's top most powerful heroes isn't powerful enough to be taken seriously unless she's related to a really powerful man somehow -- she needed a boost and had to become the daughter of the king of the gods, so that tween male readers will think she's badass enough to read. and it throws away a classic iconic origin that is unique across all superheroes in favour of a very tired, cliched trope.

anyhow. after trying to nitpick something out of it's context, i'm not interested in hearing about your feelings. on any topic.

LOL. I like how you're now backtracking from what you said earlier just because now I poked several holes in it. Might as well start poking some more.

It wasn't "one instance" of compassion. It was her personality. Her taking care of Zola, her attempting to free the male Amazons from what she believed to be slavery, her comforting Orion when he was confronting inner demons, her bringing the male Amazons back to Paradise Island, her unparalleled ability to convert former enemies into allies. Its all a testament to how Azzarello crafted her to be a compassionate, well-rounded individual. So, yeah, ignoring all that makes you factually wrong.

And FYI, acting superior doesn't really help your position. For one, Greek mythology isn't just for you. Marvel and DC and a plethora of other fictional universes have been interpreting and reinterpreting mythology for a loooooong time. Like, centuries. If DC's new interpretation of the Greek gods is such a travesty then so is Kirby's interpretation of the Norse gods. And secondly, this interpretation doesn't "disrespect" the stories of the old Greek mythology. I used to eat up old myths from Greece and Japan and China and Africa and all around the world. I've read Oedipus. I've read Antigone. I've read the Bacchae. So stop acting as if you get to sit on a high horse and pass judgment on those who enjoyed Azzarello's run because, newsflash, you're not the only one who has studied Greek myth, and studying/respecting Greek myth does not preclude one from enjoying Azzarello's interpretation. Hell, Azzarello has probably read and studied Greek myth, because his interpretations of the Amazons and the gods are closer to how they were in those myths than they were Pre-New 52.

Also, every woman has a father. Its Wonder Woman, not Wonder Golem. Just because her origin was "unique" (which it wasn't because there are several stories and heroic tales about golems) doesn't mean it was particularly good.

Plus, in no way shape or form is Zeus "defining" her. LIke I said, every woman has a father, from whom they've probably inherited traits. Does that mean that all of them are "defined" by their dads? No. No, it doesn't.

And, I'm sorry to break it to you, but it does add to her character. Because now she has an entire network of brothers and sisters, all gods and demigods, that are now connected to her. Characters like Lennox, Milan, and Siracca would not have been introduced or had as much importance if they had not been related to Diana. So, yeah, it does add to the character because it gives her more options for diversity for her mythos than just the Amazons, the Justice League, and whatever clichéd and horrible villain she's fighting any given week. Honestly, the only good Wonder Woman villain pre-New 52 was Cheetah.

Plus, notice how Zeus didn't appear AT ALL in the entire run until the very end. Hell, I don't even think his name was dropped outside of a few issues. So, the links that YOU make in your brain aren't necessarily the ones that others do.

And, all in all, I don't really care if you wanna hear my opinions because I am going to share them whether you want me to or not.

i didn't read past the first sentence. not interested.

i'm not backtracking at all. you understand the concept of generalization vs being literal right? only a complete tool would read what i wrote and get from that that i was literally covering 35 issues of a book and saying that the character never demonstrated any compassion. lol.

stop wasting my time. go away. sigh.

Likes:

Justice League appearance

Paradise Island scenes

Dislikes:

Some of the artwork (especially some of the characters in that two page spread that's people have already posted on this thread)

The "fight" with Swamp Thing

Verdict: 3.5/5

@zeeguy91: I agree with you. I thought in Azz's run, in fact, Wonder Woman's was fully realized beyond what virtually any team had accomplished with her (or virtually any new 52 character). All the items you cite, and a few you didn't, very much painted her as a fierce warrior that was also very compassionate and noble. They fused this with a sort of regal bearing -- and all of it resulted in a character that was distinct from characters like Superman. In fact, their run converted me to someone for whom Wonder Woman was in the top tier to someone for whom WW was my favorite character.

I also agree that Azzarello got the mythological tone spot-on, with Chiang's artwork giving it a modern reimagining. It reads like Greek Myth in character if not specifics -- including (and particularly) some of the very twisted qualities you find among those stories -- items like Cronos perpetually eating Hades, Cassandra being fed the flesh of her servants, the gods being capricious, duplicitous and cruel.

And while I don't feel quite as strongly that this was a terrible issue (I appreciate that they are trying to give WW some additional psychological shading, and this is a first issue), it definitely falls short of what I would expect from the previous team. Items I didn't like:

- Her going off on Swamp Thing for no particular reason was especially clumsy

-Starting with the shower scene was a bit gratuitous (but I did like that she was washing away blood from some unspecified previous event),

- The confession scene did border on self-pity (Maybe if they had doled it out a little at a time rather than an emotion-dump in a couple of panels)

- The art is a bit 'comic book generic' after the evocative almost Art Nouveau/Aubrey Beardsley style of Chiang -- and WW was drawn as too much of a cheescake pin-up (particularly problematic given the 'barely legal' face they gave her and the perma-pout lips)

Things I liked:

- The integration with the rest of the DCU... as long as they don't go too far with it and keep the book squarely focused on her and it doesn't become a second Superman/WonderWoman or JL title.

- Paradise Island scenes. The identity of the old woman is intriguing, and I do like that they are addressing and leveraging that not everyone might be so happy to have their society radically altered. I liked that her origin as Zeus' daughter and new 'family ties' is used to possibly discredit her (ironically, @ips expressed a similar opinion)

- The opening V.O., which honestly gave me hope for the writing that the rest of the book didn't live up to. In fact, I was a bit confused when the phenomenon had nothing to do with water or flooding, given the symbolism set up in that opening.

- That they did, in fact, keep the continuity between the previous run and now, even if they do their own themes, tone and take the story somewhere else.

P.S., don't get too worked up about @ips: I gave a quick glance at his comments and literally I couldn't find one that wasn't negative. And not just about WW, but basically any character, team or title. It's one of those cases were one wonders why they read Comics, since he doesn't seem to actually like any of them.

@ponteyuen said:

lol you may want to glance harder next time. i'm involved in a discussion that you're jumping into which mostly praises this book positively. that's why your friend is mad and trolling. unless what you really mean to say is that i'm not entitled to be critical of anything or share that insight unless you personally concur with my observations. because if i don't, you'll accuse me of hating comics and being negative.

i'm an actual fan familiar with both mythology and the character. not a "fair weather fan" like yourselves.

it's the 2 of you making negative posts.

sigh. i wish you people would stay under your bridges.

Spoken like someone who can't even defend their own point of view. You literally said this:

i hated Azz's replacement origin and didn't care for his characterization of WW. she was all business and warrior and had none of the human qualities that make her popular. being a powerful warrior and being a compassionate being contrast against each other and they make the character endearing.

General inference from that would be that you disapproved of Azz's run because he didn't portray her as compassionate enough. Hence, my response stating that he did indeed show her as compassionate and not just in a few "isolated instances." So, I'm not wasting your time, bud. You're wasting everyone else's.

LOL. Fair weather fans. So, because we didn't like a bad issue, which is very much what Wonder Woman #36 was, we're fair weather fans? LOL, your superiority complex would be truly hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Dude. I've been interested in comics and mythology for years. Your trying to pawn off my like for the Azzarello run as me being a "fair weather fan" is so ridiculous, especially when every critic is practically singing from the mountaintops about how good it was compared to some of the crap Wonder Woman comics were pre-New 52. Yeah, that's right. I was reading Wonder Woman pre-New 52, but almost every run I ever tried, from Simones to Rucka's to Perez's to JMS's bored me to tears. Azzarello's was the first that actually appeared to be telling a story while building up Diana, as opposed to the writer just crafting Diana as the ultimate Mary Sue, who just preaches to everyone else around her, while completely neglecting to make the plot compelling. I remember one Simone issue when Wondy literally compared bra sizes with Black Canary. Yeah, cuz that's the one thing that female superheroes need to do when they're in a room together: compare boobs.

And, I'm sorry, but bridges are meant for trolls, so that pretty much precludes me, but I'm sure you would be right at home under one.

exactly. this means that she was portrayed compassionately to some degree but not ENOUGH to satisfy me. ... you just confirmed that i was making an obviously general statement of the overall entire run. which you clearly understood from your above words but still chose to troll.

spoken as someone who doesn't need to defend their point of view at all.

troll on. troll on.

yes you're a fairweather fan. jumping onto team WW because a writer like AZZ came in and reworked her to be teenage boy badass approved makes you a fairweather fan. jumping onto team WW because they scrap everything iconic and established and unique about the character to make her defined by a man makes you a fairweather fan. you're not a wonderwoman fan, you're an Azz fan. follow him to his next book. part of being a good writer in this context was to take an existing character and add to it. not re-write everything 70years of existing fans love about the character.

you didn't dislike a bad issue. you posted a hissyfit of vitriol that wasn't rational at all. don't confuse my inferior view of and utter lack of respect for you personally, for a superiority complex. two completely different things.

and i'm sorry but, that sounds about right.

Can we all just get along? LOL. Seriously, we can have differences of opinion without all the personal attacks can't we? I think you both make good points for what makes a comic good or bad to you personally. Myself, I loved Azarello's run on WW, but I can respect someone else's opinion if they didn't.

This particular issue from the Finch family was OK in my opinion, but I can see where I'm going to miss Azarello. I'll keep reading though and give it a chance to get better. By the way, am I the only one that thinks Mr. Finch makes everyone's face look the same? His art is incredibly detailed overall, and I do generally like his artwork. However, everyone shouldn't have the same face.

Then pray tell, what would make her compassionate enough because almost everything about the character we saw showed her as a compassionate, smart, and well-rounded individual. Maybe it went over your head? Either way, just because you want to thumb your nose at that (to justify a hatred which is mostly just based in nostalgia) doesn't mean it isn't there.

Also, simply dismissing me as a fair weather fan just proves my point that you can't defend your point of view without resorting to ad hominem attacks. And maybe you missed the part about Azz's not being the first Wonder Woman run I ever read? But, it certainly was the best, because I was severely disappointed with the writing on many of them. I was always a fan of the character, but the people who wrote her comics never could make her shine like Azz could. You wanna know what was so good about Azzarello's run? The fact that, before the reboot, writers characterized Wonder Woman as either an soft-spoken diplomat who preached patience and restraint or the battle-ready warrior who would knock your head off at a moment's notice. Azzarello found a way to balance those two personalities, allowing her to be the warrior who first preaches compassion and then jumps into combat when its clear there's no other way. THAT'S what makes his run so good.

Also, a few points that make your argument totally invalid:

• I think you're confusing "iconic" with "something that you personally liked." Iconic means that it makes her well-known and is something that everyone who knows who the character is would know about her. Her "golem" origin was not one of those things. Why? Uh, because nobody in the general American populace even knew about it. You know what makes Batman's origin iconic? Superman's too? Uh, because everyone who has ever even heard of those two characters knows the stories of where they came from. I guarantee you, nobody who was familiar with Wonder Woman from TV or other media ever knew that she used to be a clay monster.
• Do you know how to read? I already said how her now being the daughter of Zeus (who, again made almost no appearances throughout the whole run) does not make her "defined by a man." Newsflash, all women have fathers. Saying that she's now "defined" by a man is like saying all women in the world are defined by the men who sired them. If anything, this makes her more like a real woman. You wanna go read about an earth monster? Go pick up an issue of Fantastic Four to check out Thing.
• Maybe you missed the fact that this is A REBOOT?!?! The whole point of the New 52 was to take the characters in new directions. Look at Nightwing. He found out not long after the reboot that Haley's Circus was actually a front organization for the Court of Owls and their own personal "Talon farm."

And yeah, you clearly have a superiority complex. Anyone who sits behind their computer (located in their parents' basement most likely, given the vibe I'm getting off of you) and attacks people just because they personally disagree with him has either a severe superiority complex or a severe inferiority complex. Honestly, it HAS to be one of those, given your general behavior. So, which is it?

Lastly, liking Azz's Wonder Woman run doesn't make me a fair weather fan. It just makes me a fan of good comics. Your bad taste is no skin off my nose.

100% agree. i'm really not enjoying the art. on some pages i thought it was nice and others it was just very harsh and unflattering. the colours were beautiful though and really helped de-emphasize the harsh pencils in a lot of the pages making them easier to appreciate. i knew i wouldn't enjoy the art after reading Forever Evil though :/.

i've already explained. i am looking down on you specifically. that is not a superiority complex. a superiority complex would be if i looked down on everyone. get over yourself. it's only your opinion that doesn't matter to me. i have plenty of respect for just about anyone else i encounter in the world who has something of value to say.

i didn't attack you; this is comical. you REPLIED(attacked) to me. i could care less what you think. my general behaviour?! is that i'm an adult who knows what they're talking about, talking to a tween who doesn't. having an opinion is not the same thing as being knowledgeable. you have nothing of value to add. no one cares.

also, i'm a professional art and creative director. a dev on a superhero video game also. i'm 38. everyone is entitled to their opinion. but they are not entitled to be taken seriously.

we're done here.

Notice how, in my original post, I never attacked you. I only said what I believed you got wrong. YOU were the one who responded being all pernicious and rude, literally saying this:

anyhow. after trying to nitpick something out of it's context, i'm not interested in hearing about your feelings. on any topic

When you say something like that, you are essentially flipping the other person off, saying you don't take them seriously. Nothing in my original post was as rude or insulting as your comments.

You may be 38, but you essentially have the maturity and social skills of a 13-year-old. Your incessant need to attack anyone else's opinion, even if it is just mine, pretty much solidifies that. And FYI, superiority complex doesn't necessarily mean everyone. It can specific and targeted. As in this case, you think you're superior to someone else (me), but you're really not. Not by a long shot.

And I know what I'm talking about! I've read Wonder Woman comics from several different runs (Simone, Rucka, JMS, Perez), and none were as good as the Azz run. So, my opinion is completely informed. Just because you wish to dismiss it as trivial and uninformed doesn't make it so. Get over YOURSELF!!

So, yeah. we are done here, because, all in all, I don't need to sit here and have my opinion attacked by someone who is so utterly insecure in their views.

read. we're done.

What a massive step back for WW this issue is... Wonder Woman is backing to being defined by the people around her and the way she is drawn makes her look emotionally weak and sorta child like.

Is this seriously what people want from WW? I thought she was meant to be an empowering character...