Outerversal Shinra vs Living Tribunal

Weaker fire force characters neg diff both verse let alone Shinra neg diff entire marvel and dc combined.

Smh

i find this shit to be consistent every time I become active on the site and post something Shinra related--since no one else even understands dimensionality or argues it.

but aside from the potential meat riding, what hax does the living tribunal present? since I know most of you would like to say ignorant on R>F ill give you the leisure of baiting me into a hax debate.

i mean this is a legit argument but to be fair, it's cause the writers fucking suck at using LT

its the LT and Spectre effect (and somewhat galactus)

established as strong dudes that writers make job to hype up villains

they're eternal jobbers

iirc there are incarnations where LT gets beaten by Master Order and Lord Chaos so he can def lose to Shinrabanshoman

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

I wonder--if LT doesn't have at least the hax to put up against Concept manip, Possible Axiom manip (Something that hilariously made Umineko threads against marvel--always in favor of the former--even without the superior cosmology) What is he doing?

let alone, how is this thread still up?

@xebec: Galactus would smoke Shinra. Let alone the living tribunal. This man plays with Universal concepts, not outerversal ones. The concepts are also human made and are linked to and directly affeced by humanities desires. Shinra cannot scale far above his cosmology

Seems like you dont know the distinction between a universal and outerversal concept, let alone what fire force as a series runs on to have humans directly interact with there own collective unconscious lol, shit like persona and SMT can get a pass, but when it comes to fire force that's literally using a more plato friendly setup--it gets tossed out the window because of ignorance.

and the fact that Shinra is being downplayed despite literally being above the collective is crazy--when a more suitable person to say doesn't scale past the collective--would be a creation he made being death from soul eater.

It's like saying Anos can beat Unicron because he can destroy concepts, even though Unicron can just nuke his plane of existence. It's laughable

Concepts are more fundamental than just simple existences, someone whos contingent on say the concept of life or story, would be hilariously hard to kill as the concept of life/story would be a backup form of immortality.

well yeah thats my problem with LT in general. At least the DC jobber (spectre) fights

LT is all talk no action

this dude never got a fight or feats in dozens of years of publications, it's pathetic

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

@chainchan: Gtfo out of here I've debated you millions of times stop your shinra wank he is not outerversal or even complex multiversal his best feat is messing with human concepts and warping reality on the level of a star.

Im sorry--you're not....really that memorable to be that familiar with me.

and I really can't tell the difference between you, Argos and the Bots that use sarcasm as a coping mechanism (And even now--I still have no f*cking idea on who you are, or when we debated.)

Adolla is an abstract relm but one linked to humanities will. It is directly tied to human ideas and affected by that. At best these concepts encompass the Universe, thats it. At best Shinra is Universal with type 3 conceptual manipulation, even that can be considered wank when Shinra himself never affected the entire Universe when he destroyed Adolla.

Realm*

Type 3 concepts aren't the ones that adolla follows, and i'd probably advise you to read any tiering system hax classification before trying to assert shit like that--because believe me, I will debate that until the thread is locked.

When Beyonder killed Lady death it affected the entire multiverse and nobody could die. Thats ACTUAL Platonic Conceptual manipulation

No it isn't lol--it doesn't even fall under the same properties as platnoic ones and rather--would fall under airstoles universal concept--as to say, they affect everything universally (I think I might have to speficy further since you might attribute "Universal" to just a simple universe--but just think of it as 1 change to the concept just changes the cosmology, which is generally assumed on concepts as like--a default).

Fun fact; it's like harder to get Type 3 concept manipulation than Type 1, since the conditions are so far off and janky, that you have to be making a verse in mind to have such localized concepts--like say, ichibeis name manipulation in bleach--but I digress.

But since you're Mr. know-it-all.

do tell me the contents of what makes a platonic concept a platonic concept, and how death in marvel follows this--so the assertion of yours can hold up.

Shinra isn't even an abstract being nor is he immortal.

This what Reading 10 chapters and ignoring the rest of the series does to someone....its tragic

He is a fusion between his brother and mom. Anyone with existence erasure or multiversal AP can kill his ass

Possibly your perception/lacky version of shinra--but not mine, to which I've done extensive research on, but aye, you do you, ill do me, and frankly? i think Xebec was right, Shinra One shots the Sorry Jobber due to:

1) A Lack of Hax presented, 2) A Lack Of AP/Scaling Presented, 3) No argumentation whatsoever.

its almost like people forget the proper way of arguing these days. but if it's another debate you want--im happy to deliver since i have some stuff I've been cooking behind the scenes.

And maybe--if you can show me some respect, i'd show some in turn, but starting off a message like that is just asking for an altercation.

@chainchan: Goofy ass mf. There is only 1 Universe in Fire Force and at best the Adolla relm encompasses that. Shinra cannot be fucking outerversal if there is only 1 Universe in fireforce. The Adolla relm is literally stated to be a higher dimension at best it is 5D and nothing more.

Explain the things one must have to be outerversal, Sir "argomkii", surely--you don't need to transcend dimensionality or a concept of space--which are superior to any number of universes.

Even saying he's 5d implies he's above Multiversal

It is made of human emotions. Stated numerous times to be a thought world and merged with the human world because of human despair growing stronger. it is a relm directly linked to humans. These concepts are not type 1, they are jugian archetypes and are Universal at most. Even if they were, his conceptual manipulation would still only be universal and would be totally featless in manipulating complex multiversal beings like the Anti Spiral

Ignoring how you butchered everything on what adolla is--and how you likely dont know what you're talking about.

I hope you know Jungian archetypes are an extension or can be said to be descendants off platonic ones right? and even be used together lol--but I guess I shouldn't expect you to know that.

"Shinra has no business scaling to outerversal without the cosmology stop your ridiculous nonsense"

Like the previous question, tell me, what one must be to be outerversal.

Edit: Sadly (Or hilariously), Galactus gets dropped on his neck by Shinra--let alone the evangelist--hell--even Haumea would neg bro, and I'm ready to argue it.

@chainchan: Shinra is Universal. There is one Universe in fireforce and Adolla cannot be Platonic since its affected by Human ideas and stated to be Human despair itself. No one is Outerversal here.

Platnoic concepts arent invalidated if a human manipulates them lol, there's a reason why the collective exists--to be metaphysical/allow this shit to happen for story.

So I recommend slowing down on whatever you're smoking and rereading Platonism in Metaphysics.

Even giving Shinra conceptual manipulation doesn't do much when Shinras cosmology is small as shit. His conceptual manipulation is only Universal.

You know you dont need a cosmology to have platnoic concepts right? the very fact that Fire Force as a verse brings in metaphysical aspects in the forms of achertypes is enough to start lol.

He has no feats of affecting other parallel timelines or Complex Dimensions like a 10D object.

That isn't impressive--nor is it relevant to outerversal, especially when he transcends time--something literally stated in correlation with his ability, so what use would temporal structures have on him?.

You can argue Adollas not even 5th dimensional since it's best statement is being stated to warp the laws of the Universe and nothing more.

Doesn't affect the status of what the 5th dimension is lol--its literally just an extra cardinal of space, and I wouldn't care if it wasn't 5d, Because I literally argue its not a higher dimension but plane.

Being generous he is as strong as Hades from Seint Seiya max due to cosmology.

No bearings on anything.

Realistically.... he is as strong as the Silver Surfer with visual star level feats

No bearings again.

Shinra is geting dogwalked by 616 Odin let alone Galactus

Alright, so not only can you not tell me what makes an outeversal thing--well outerversal, you cant prove death in marvel is platonic. furthermore, you haven't even said what makes something platonic--and you continue to ignore the big questions that may reveal on how much you know about the actual subject at hand.

But, Its become apparent that you're speaking out of your ass and don't even know a thing about the metaphysical ideas you're trying to argue are false/dont exist in fire force, and yes-i can literally tell, from-your dodging of the questions, that have led me to such a conclusion.

and hell--i feel as if--I was to present an argument, you'd choke up and continue on your bullshit rant about "Human Despair Human Ideation Human Everything!" like bro, get off the site, read fire force, or read platonism, possibly debate on a site where you can get dropped on your neck (Metaphorically of course)--so you can get humbled, and then maybe--you'll be able to talk to me respectfully, and on intellectual level that doesn't make this a pointless argument--without spouting rubbish I see every time I debate anti-fire force peeps (Or depending on age--get a job).

and it's even more amusing--because even DC--a verse you probably think is strong, has humans as a collective--hilariously high (The dreaming ring a bell?)--but I digress, there's clearly a huge knowledge gap between me and you (Take that as you will), and ill appreciate it if you don't tag me with dumbass counters/retorts--but again, if you're actually gonna argue--no, give reasonings as to why the LT wins, ill happily debate you, because i think the opposite is true.

@chainchan: Platonic Concepts are absolutely invalidated when regular ass humans can manipulate them and at least affect them.

Nowhere does it say that in Standford (Hell, if FF regular ass humans could all manipulate platonic concepts--knowingly, it'd literally just upgrade the verse in totality) and you're just stating an opinion now, and no, no regular "ass" humans cant manipulate them, their metaphysical collective can, much like the dreaming in DC can manipulate reality.

Platonic Concepts encompass the physical world, they are not affected by normal phenomenon or regular cause and affect in the physical world and are not made up of human thoughts or apart of the mind.

If you were smart enough to copy and paste, you'd be smart enough to know that adolla is literally not an extension of the mind and acts more or less as a plane connected to humanities collective--but I digress, I dont need much to debunk/retort here, since its not attacking my argument.

Oops... guess what Adolla is

Not a physical world, but we can run that right now as well, as even the very flames and "objects" there are abstract.

Affecting an aspect of physical reality as we know it is not going to affect a platonic concept.

That's in effect of say, changing every aspect of said object a platonic concept is under--wouldn't change it, that's not happening in fire force.

Read a book without any pictures in it for once.

So you're making the assumption or assertion I dont read books without pictures off a series I argue off of? ignoring how I at least have knowledge on external forms that dont have images to represent them? you're making quite the crazy positive assertion, so I ask--prove that.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism/

This link debunks your goofy ass argument.

I've read Standford, and the entry, is not a debunk, it literally further validates my points (Like I literally use it to argue)--but I will say this, you've debunked yourself, as the arguments your fighting--are yet, just assertions of yourself.

And even if we gave Shinra conceptual manipulation, guess what bro. He can only scale to his cosmology, which is UNIVERSAL.

So after finding the entry of one of the best places to explain such phenomena, you resort to idiocy that doesn't debunk the notion, nice.

So any of that conceptual bs will not save him from a being who can blink his verse away.

Not only do we have Shit Like the kishin being contingent on human fear and the sort--we also have shinra being the projection of humanity's concept as a savior--destroying physical reality would do jack shit to him.

Adolla being a higher plane is meaningless. Adollas only capable of warping the laws of the Universe so it changes nothing. Adolla only has power over 1 Universe

And Platnoic concepts don't necessarily govern many universes, your point?

But since your whole entire post is just attacking fog, ill explain the argument you need to debunk.

Adolla being a world of ideas would mean it has concepts, (Pretty easy to conclude), Adolla being a higher plane (meaning it transcends the world--which is also stated) would be another property of it, adolla being non-physical (as in literally everything in the realm up until it fused with the earth could be described as extensions of perceptions put into the metaphysical human physce known as the collective uncionsness, or just flames that have the same aspects of souls and abnormally burn without oxygen--showing a non-contingency, on physical matter) would then become by logical inference and from the very logic of Standford and conventional definitions (A-Spatial, and A-temporality--which are the things that make a platonic concept--well outer), fall for itself, as its own platnoic concept, as it not only holds the properties to be one--it has the properties to contain them.

From that, you could even argue the very souls of FF humans would fall under original platonic beliefs.💀

but other than that, you have only stated 1 of the many conditions of what it means to be a platnoic concept (Doesn't really matter, since I've practically spoiled the conditions), and have ignored other questions.

Shinra is no near close of being outerversal, that being said, only a low multiversal entity is needed to stomp the fodder that Living Tribunal is currently that is threatened by beings that cannot even encompass a destruction to one single multiverse, where LT is bound by all sides trapped and can be killed by matter destructio, and per Secret Wars he might be unable to pass judgement to any extra-dimensional being. Guess all depends of where do you scale Shinra, I know is pretty lowballed here unlike VSBatlles where is highballed to giant levels of cope, but is not too dificult either to find any cosmic being capable of trash Living Tribunal.

@chainchan: Exactly, their thoughts can affect Adolla. Adolla is human despair and driven by Humanities thoughts and actions. It is stated numerous times to be a thought world, made of human thoughts, a world of human ideas, human thoughts given form, a world of human perception. Etc etc it is linked to human minds and bent by humans.

Its not a world of thought, and the word you're looking for is ideas, which can be interchanged for concepts, which doesn't help your case, and to my recollection--i haven't seen "Thought given form" unless it refers to the weird eyeball thing--that doesn't exist, and exists at the same time.

If you paid attention last time we debated you would've seen the 10 scans i posted.

I already told you--you aren't memorable, and neither is your argumentation.

Adolla has concepts, but they are not platonic for reasons already stated.

Said reasons I debunked/countered, you literally attacked your own views of adolla, and I literally gave you the argument that you should be attacking.

It is not stated once in the manga that they are fundamental to reality or the Universe.

I dont think that needs to be stated when its already assumed lol--the very alteration of the world by adolla can also be expressed as the will of the universe changing its surroundings.

The Cataclysm is literally the merging of Adolla with the real world because of an increase of human despair in the physical world. If it was what you think it is, this shit wouldn't happen

It would still happen, because the formula I use for the realm has humans as top priority, and since PI is solvable--the bridge that separated adolla from the world isn't a thing anymore.

Even if we give wank Shinra and give the man conceptual manipulation, these concepts encompass 1 Universe. One Universe.

The previous quote from myself:

And Platnoic concepts don't necessarily govern many universes, your point?

How the hell does Shinra scale to Outerversal ? Stop using internet vs wikis and use common sense.

> How does Shinra scale to outerversal (Alright sure lets use a website that defines it)

> Stop using the Wiki to define it!

You're delusional and non-sensical.

And ive presented is common sense--this is logic, I've already told you, and I'm tired of expressing such, he scales to outer off the concepts, is it that hard to get through your head?

Concepts that encompass a multiverse like shit in Marvel or just a bigger verse in general are going to be infinitely superior than the powers Shinra has.

No they wouldn't, infact--you do know conceptual scaling like this work of quality rather than quantity? so such bullshit as "X has more universes" doesn't make its concepts more impressive.

This is not hard to comprehend.

But what I seemingly say is so hard for you to comprehend--you don't bother to address my full points.

Anos is another example. Anos's verse has a superior cosmology and the concepts that encompass that verse are going to be superior. Even so, Anos is not outerversal despite the fact that he can destroy concepts

You do know the only reason he's not outer is because he doesn't have type 1 concept manip--otherwise known as platonic ones--which for your information is:

You like to say shit like, "Dont use wikis" then what else am I supposed to use for a metric of actually proving my character is outer then? the answer is nothing, because the whole tier is contingent upon the website's definition and placement of it.

Shinra is also not an abstract being.

Gallery

> Is literally part of a fusion where 3 concepts are put in your face

> Is the projection of a concept

> His final form is literally that from a soul fusion

You couldn't be more wrong on the matter.

Also--if you cant read--or choose not to read--ill give you one more chance at attacking the main argument:

Adolla being a world of ideas would mean it has concepts, (Pretty easy to conclude), Adolla being a higher plane (meaning it transcends the world--which is also stated) would be another property of it, adolla being non-physical (as in literally everything in the realm up until it fused with the earth could be described as extensions of perceptions put into the metaphysical human physce known as the collective uncionsness, or just flames that have the same aspects of souls and abnormally burn without oxygen--showing a non-contingency, on physical matter) would then become by logical inference and from the very logic of Standford and conventional definitions (A-Spatial, and A-temporality--which are the things that make a platonic concept--well outer), fall for itself, as its own platnoic concept, as it not only holds the properties to be one--it has the properties to contain them.

If you keep on ignoring that--you'll just come off even more ignorant.

Living Tribunal stomps Shinra, lmao wtf is this? The same LT that easily turned off the classic IG? C'mon bruh.

@chainchan: Gtfo out of here I've debated you millions of times stop your shinra wank he is not outerversal or even complex multiversal his best feat is messing with human concepts and warping reality on the level of a star.

Adolla is an abstract relm but one linked to humanities will. It is directly tied to human ideas and affected by that. At best these concepts encompass the Universe, thats it. At best Shinra is Universal with type 3 conceptual manipulation, even that can be considered wank when Shinra himself never affected the entire Universe when he destroyed Adolla.

When Beyonder killed Lady death it affected the entire multiverse and nobody could die. Thats ACTUAL Platonic Conceptual manipulation

Shinra isn't even an abstract being nor is he immortal. He is a fusion between his brother and mom. Anyone with existence erasure or multiversal AP can kill his ass

LT stomps based of IG alone.

Thanos with IG casually nerfs Abstracts which range from Universal, Galactus, Celestial to Multiversal Eternity.

Adam Warlock did the same and was doing so with ease.

LT reversed the effects with ease.

It was also stated by The Living Tribunal that a conflict between Adam and his self would lay waste to their reality.

It's clear at this point before LT restricted the IG it was high end Multiversal and yet LT was almost not interesting at all and Ruled against Eternity and in Adams favour. This was in regards to who should decide the fate of where, how and who should protect and or wield the stones.

Shinra probably.

His conceptual manipulation is higher level.