Naruto and Sasuke vs Ichigo and Kenpachi

@thevivas: 1) basically the bottom line is they are unreliable.

2) kirin wasnt dodged though

3) guy wasnt facing naruto in the manga directly and it clearly showed motion lines on madara's part clearly showing that madara was swing his head. And guy is the fastes character in the narutoverse given the ease at which he embarssed madara in speed using only taijutsu whereasnaruto and sasuke while they tagged madara in battle, had madara in a handicap and also made use of various assorted techniques.

4) i ll take that as a concession. And gaara and onoki's company of troops were battling not quite far away from the hq. So basically i guess a messanger bird is far faster than elite shinobis then sice an ordinary bird (doesnt even come close to subsonic speed) covered the distance in hours.

5) lets be logical here. Literally all the examples you listed do not apply as not only do they involve characters far above any one in the allied headquaters but also involved active combat where reaction is naturally heightened. There was nothing going on other than casual conversations albeit their impending doom. They werent in active combat else your examples MIGHT hold some weight.

Heck you are comparing full statements and discussion to quick thought in combat which barely amount to a sentence.

as for this arm feat.

heres a better one. stand still. hold your arm out in front of you parallel to the ground. now swing your arm down and back up until its behind you, again parallel to the ground. if your arm had a 2,000 mile beam coming out of it, you would have just disected the planet. is your arm now light speed?

quick answer. no.

light speed is, what somewhere around 300k miles per second.

how does 4k miles per second =/= 300k miles per second?

EDIT: 299k miles per second. wanted to get that right before a rage fest starts over the incorrect number lol.

@kroczilla: 1. I don't need a calculator to tell know a 2000 mile long beam being swung at massively hypersonic speeds is going to be light speed in its arc, with even a basic idea of how numbers work you'd see the physics involved are ludacrisly beyond our real world limits. That very simple calc, as I explained already, was help people who think in those terms understand that you physically can't swing a 2000 mile long anything at MHS speeds and not have it be light speed at the end.

Scaling from Mimihagi is utterly stupid, Ywhach does not have to be as fast as Mimihagi to notice it coming. This is like saying you're as fast fast than a car because you saw it coming from a mile away and had time to react. Ywhach did not have to contend with the distance, Mimihagi did...and btw, the only instance of that speed was when directly transferring to a being it was literally already a part, so I hope you're not it can move like that in any other situation lmao.

I could have gotten mixed up on the number of districts, but when we plainly see the whole thing in its entirety on panel there's no way we can mistake it. It is plainly a city. The size of the landmass SS is on is as unspecific as the 5 dimensions Kaguya created.

The soul of the ground in Earth's realm is in Earth's realm, not Soul society. It is not a mirror of Earth at all, it does not contain alternate versions of everything on Earth, it just houses dead people. We are told souls that pass on go to soul society. We have seen Soul Society is a large city. At no point in the entire series has anyone been like "so how about all those other soul cities all over our soul planet?" No, because it's just one city, on one unspecified land mass.

Idr this manga adaptation you speak of, but if this is true then okay, the land mass is specified. ...This doesn't some how make Soul Society more than one city on a whole lot of empty planet, but sure. It doesn't make Ywhach planet level either, btw, because of the nature of absorption: you get stronger as you use it. Had he absorbed a planet, he would unmistakably be planet level. It's the same logic that prevents Ultimecia from being as strong as time itself, despite her absorbing time itself...she didn't finish.

The meteor is several times larger than the entire city. It doesn't need to be as wide, if it were it would be hundreds if not thousands of times larger than the city because of its height, length, and the fact that it's solid. As it is, the actual city is not even close to the mass of that meteor.

When has Ywhach displayed the physical strength to lift cities? He's shown city+ reality warping on said cities, but he has no strength feats on that level besides beating Ken...and by extension, Ichigo.

There was nothing vague about the statements on amaterasu. They just straight up say it. Shamelessly, too, like wtf. Yam gave solid numbers that he ultimately never came close to by showings. I understand that he was holding back, but THAT is something that is vague. How much? At what point does he die? Can he even go all the way? The problem is we have not seen it at its maximum potential...partly because he outright said he can't even handle it, and when he dies the bankai ends so there is no sense even trying to argue it on higher level because would never even try for anything but a unquantifiable suicide run (if someone's arguing a kamikaze attack...their character already lost lol it's literally arguing that your character has no option but to die).

@kingofhell: Regardless of what you may think, harassing other users is actually supposed to be flagged. I told you to leave me alone a dozen times now, all you're doing is setting yourself up for a warning and then, should you still persist, a ban. Do not bring it to that level, just be an adult about it and do as you've been told. I told you I'm done with you.

at light speed the beam would have travelled the distance of the moon in under 1/1000th of a second. you can CLEARY see in the movie/gifs it takes longer then that. literally.

light speed is 299,000miles/second

the moon is ~2000 miles in diameter.

just based off those rough numbers, shows the swing of the beam would have to have happened nearly instantaneously. he would have swung his arm to fast you literally wouldn't be able to see it, one second he would have had his arm straight up, the next it would be down and through the moon.

the swing is not light speed. in the ~1 second it took to swing his arm, the beam would have travelled 1,000 times that distance,

imagine 1,000 moons lined up in a row. imagine that beam cutting through every, single one of them in that same amount of time. that is light speed. these are logical numbers you can not deny.

Dude, you are debating... but... your completely going at it in the wrong way.

You follow databooks as well?

Low on chakra? you mean the same guys that got recharged every 5 minutes. I think your understanding of low on chakra is very dull.

Is not like Obito had just given him 9 bijuus to recharge, is not like Kabuto had just healed sasuke, and Hagoromo had just given them a power up. Ending in low reserves of chakra is just prove they can't keep up with that lv of power for too long at the contrary of their predecessors who could go at it by an entire day.

I know the context, but it sure loves to contradict itself a lot when both Sasuke and Naruto were getting healed and recharged constantly. Like I said, if anything, it just proves they can't keep up with that lv of power for too long. Which is also shown in the movie, where Naruto's chakra reserve ends after resisting two attacks from Toneri.

Read databooks.

Actually they will, Sasuke's sword can, they can.

Oh those same attacks they end up without chakra after receiving/delivering 2 or 3? Those attacks? Ok, let's talk for real here for a second. Bijuu Bomb, this is what takes to make Sasuke and Naruto's Perfect Susano'o and Avatar star breaking appart.

Gallery

you like it? you love it? Check the size of that thing, which considering it reaches the clouds is arguable 2000 meters. And compare it the meteor Kenpachi broke. Or Aizen's fragor that Ichigo no sold. Or Yhwach's shadows that were destroying all of Soul Society.

Just wanted to be sure you knew. Remember the difference in damage from both attacks.

No, Ichigo's Getsuga which are energy based will do jack. That's the difference. There is still his strength, speed, and Getsuga Enggraped in a sword.

Actually he does. Considering that Naruto doesn't have anything alike.

Like which one?

Sage Jutsu doesn't make it real lightning and still works in milliseconds while normal lightning works in Microseconds.

Bro, the explosion that Naruto and Sasuke can deliver at their best, Ichigo can also take them at his normal path. Sorry if it hurts you but is the true.

I don't care about other debaters when is you the ones I'm debating. Look locust what is claiming. Toneri's attack being light speed, but I'm not saying you fall under the same category as he does.

What context am I ignoring? Which one? I'm not low balling here at all. I'm arguing for Kenpachi and Ichigo being stronger. That's all, the only moment where I lowballed was when the other guy started saying and arguing for the size of mountains and explosion in Bleach. Saying the Bleach's explosions are smaller because we see multiple forests around huge ass mountains.

Like which one? Naruto and Sasuke almost dying from an explosion they can only create when really amped? Or their Megazords being destroyed under an explosion that both Kenpachi and Ichigo have feats to be able to replicate/tank? Get bend.

You do realize you trying to prove me wrong and convince me is what is debating right?

No, thinking you saying "Naruto or Sasuke solo" without proves, when feats show the contrary, and I'm actually posting why is wrong but you choose to ignore it, while thinking that is what debating is is nothing other than blatant stupidity.

Is this a threat or something? Because dude, you are a poor debater and that's a fact.

first off, bumpoing an old threat is not an error is wanting to debate something. Second, if you read the comments before I bumped here, you and others have been debating the same way. Arguing you don't have to prove anything and if me or other read the manga we would know. I have read the manga, I have read databooks, and guess what? You are wrong.

I have never said Bleach is better. I don't go by that type of comment as me arguing for victor of a battle. And again, what context have I ignored?

They only limit themselves to mangas, just like you. I have read and followed every content that there is for Naruto and Bleach, guess what? You are wrong.

No fanfiction. Kenpachi and Ichigo have greater strength and speed feats on paper. They can win.

Greater speed, greater strength and the means to stab and burn respectively.

Greater strength, endurance and the means to stab, hack and slash both of them.

Same as above.

Again that word, and another excuse that translates, you can't prove anything.

Ignoring list is a thing.

it is as thing.

people are quick to flag but will then reply back AND not ignore list somebody. kind of ironic really.

if he was really done i would think the logical adult that he is would stop replying to you, tagging you, and unfollow this particular thread. but you know, why do the logical thing right?

Uh......Last I checked light moved at a constant of 186,000 MpS

@chair-sama: The calc was for the arc of far end of the beam, I already admitted Naruto did not interact with that part. Why an I repeating myself? Did you even read the post or were you really in that much of a rush to respond with whatever preconceptions you had that you skipped entire paragraphs? How rude...

In your example, your arm is moving at human speeds, in mine, it is moving 42x faster than an average fastball pitch (baseball) at Mach 5. Mach 5 is nowhere near as fast as they can actually move. 42 x 4,200 mps = 176,400 mps

Speed of light:

"Einstein theorized that the speed of light in a vacuum -- approximately 186,280 miles per second, or about 700 million miles per hour -- is an absolute speed limit, and used the value in his famous formula, E = mc2."

You can easily Google it, I'm not sure where you got your number. Literally every page I go to says 186,000. Yes, I'm rounding. Kill me about it.

At that point in the movie we have slowed down to the point that they no longer appeared as blurs of light, the time frame under that effect is not accurate. In real time, they are appear as inperceivable streaks of light as was clearly shown throughout the fight.

@kroczilla:

basically the bottom line is they are unreliable.

Except they're not. Concession accepted.

kirin wasnt dodged though

Not the main point. Just because the databook says something is undogeable doesn't make it an outlier if it is dodged. Not even close.

guy wasnt facing naruto in the manga directly and it clearly showed motion lines on madara's part clearly showing that madara was swing his head.

Quit dodging the question. I'll ask again:

Are you so dense that you really think Madara turned his head away from Naruto, spat out the beam, and then tried to swipe it across the cut off his head?

And guy is the fastes character in the narutoverse given the ease at which he embarssed madara in speed using only taijutsu whereasnaruto and sasuke while they tagged madara in battle, had madara in a handicap and also made use of various assorted techniques.

No he's not. Naruto, Sasuke, and Kaguya are all faster than him.

And lol at various assorted techniques. What did Naruto do to combat Madara's Limbo clones, again?

i ll take that as a concession.

And I'll take that as an other cocky Bleach fan who ignores what the manga clearly states so he doesn't have to admit he was wrong.

And gaara and onoki's company of troops were battling not quite far away from the hq.

Nope. They all went towards the same battlefield and away from the HQ. Learn to read a map.

So basically i guess a messanger bird is far faster than elite shinobis then sice an ordinary bird (doesnt even come close to subsonic speed) covered the distance in hours.

Manga > your opinion.

Not that hard to understand.

Literally all the examples you listed do not apply as not only do they involve characters far above any one in the allied headquaters but also involved active combat where reaction is naturally heightened. There was nothing going on other than casual conversations albeit their impending doom. They werent in active combat else your examples MIGHT hold some weight.

1) What the hell does "heightened reactions" have to do with forming a thought? Try saying anything they said in those examples and

2) Literally every example simply proves that you can't gauge a real time speed feat by what other characters are thinking, especially since all of it was "casual conversation", just like what Shikamaru and his dad were having.

Madara formed a thought in his head that, if you read it out loud, there wasn't time before Sasuke should have cut him.

Ay formed a thought in his head that, if you read it out loud, couldn't have been said before Minato teleported, yet it was.

Obito formed a thought in his head that, if you read it out loud, he couldn't have said before Minato hit hem, yet he did.

Izuna formed a thought in his head that, if you read it out loud, couldn't have been said before all those kunai flew past him, yet it did.

It doesn't take a genius to notice the trend.

And burden of proof is still on you.

@thelocust619: 1) like i said, not even gonna address your obviously incorrect calc. And not only did ywach easily react to mimhagi he alsoabsorbed and added mimihagi and the soul king to his power. Yet ichigo with his hallow and quincy side awakened easily moved at speed ywach could barely keep up with forcing ywach to go against his initial plans of use the almighty.

2) at thispoint,i dont even know what to tell you anymore. Show me ONE INSTANCE WHERE ALL OF SOUL SOCIETY WAS SHOWN TO BE THE SIZE F A CITY (i cant believe i am actually having this conversation). Ginjo stated that all objects have souls. The very fact that fullbringers showed they can use their abilities even in soul society withut problem clearly shows this to include the lands of soul society. Please stop spouting ignorance in claimng ss to be a city. Its honestly embarassing. The seireitei alone surpasses FIVE SPACED OUT CITIES IN SIZE. And that merely their capital. Soul society isthe entire world while the seireitei and rukongai are residential areas that do not in anyway reflect the full size of ss.

Heck the memories of nobody movie pretty much makes your point here moot. Please i suggest you URGENTLY rwefresh your memory on bleach before replying this post.

The meteor kenpachi destroyed wasnt even up to half of seireitei's size and ywach absorbed the soul king who is respionsible for the continued existence of all the realms including earth. Ywach lifted those buildings (which again were more than enough to fill five cities and even much more) with tk, not reality warping (we even see then being ripped out and lifted into the sky) over a massive distance in mere minutes.

Honestly, your ignorance is mind boggling.

3) amateratsu was merely stated in a databook to be as hot as the sun. Its vague as it could be a hyperbole and doesnt even specify what portion of the sun its as hot as. Yama on the other handnot only gave solid numbers but even clearly showed he was controlling his powers to prevent the destruction of ss similar to how n fkt he was going to control his shikai s explosion attack to affect only himself, aizen and the xaptains whereas same explosion when absorbed and eventuallyunleashed by a dead wonderweiss were going to destroy an area far larger than fkt cause yama wasnt in control.

@thelocust619: Reading your argument reminded me that yuha stole yamamoto's bankai but he never used it. It would have been cool to see that bankai used by someone that actually wanted to destroy everything.

@thevivas: 1)except they are. Concession accepted.

2) it kinda does though. Its the author's words after all using your own logic. Concession accepted btw.

3) what was shown in the manga was madara swinging his head though.

4) guy is the fastest. Lol at kaguya who got tagged by literally everyone. Nothing naruto and sasuke did combined reached what guy did to madara. Heck madara didnt even have time to use limb against madara despite earlier stating that he didnt want to get hit by guy directly. All he did was hide behind a tsb shield and shot tsb orbs at guy's trajectory.

And i m pretty sure teleportatin, resenbijuu bombs, shadow clones etc.count as assorted techniques.

5) how is that not a concession though? You literally brought no point foward.They were battling within the same country as hq . That was my point. And i m glad manga>>>my opinin. Since manga shows a pigeon to be faster than elite shinobis.

6) again all your examples are far more powerful than either shikamaru or his dad, made what amounted to quick thoughts that barely constitute a sentence (unlike whole sets of conversations that took place sfter the bijuu bomb was fired) and were all in active combat scenerios.

If you honestly cant see the difference, then there isnt any point to this.

my bad, 299k meters per second.

186k miles per second, even still. the speed in which the beam would be moving is still substantially more then 4000 miles in that second.

still over 40x faster then it is based off the previous calculations of 4000 miles in ~1second.

but yea, i goofed that one.

@kingofhell:

Dude, you are debating... but... your completely going at it in the wrong way.

Oh the irony.

You follow databooks as well?

Indeed I do.

Low on chakra? you mean the same guys that got recharged every 5 minutes. I think your understanding of low on chakra is very dull.

No, he was low. He didn't get a complete recharge every time he was healed, and then he fought Madara and then Kaguya right after Hagoromo gave him chakra.

If he wasn't low on chakra, Sasuke wouldn't have said that he was. Your understanding of the manga is very dull if you don't know that.

Is not like Obito had just given him 9 bijuus to recharge, is not like Kabuto had just healed sasuke, and Hagoromo had just given them a power up. Ending in low reserves of chakra is just prove they can't keep up with that lv of power for too long at the contrary of their predecessors who could go at it by an entire day.

1) Obito barely gave him a fraction of each Bijuu's power. Try reading the manga.

2) Both Naruto and Sasuke had fought Madara and then Kaguya after Hagoromo gave them the chakra. They didn't clash literally five minutes afterwards.

3) They can definitely keep up that level of power for a long time. You just don't understand the concept of "context".

I know the context, but it sure loves to contradict itself a lot when both Sasuke and Naruto were getting healed and recharged constantly. Like I said, if anything, it just proves they can't keep up with that lv of power for too long. Which is also shown in the movie, where Naruto's chakra reserve ends after resisting two attacks from Toneri.

1) You either know the context and ignore it, like most other Bleach debaters do, or you don't know it and make a fool of yourself. Whichever one it is, you clearly need a better understanding.

2) Naruto's chakra reserves didn't end after resisting two attacks from Toneri, what the hell are you talking about?

Actually they will, Sasuke's sword can, they can.

Actually, they won't.

Oh those same attacks they end up without chakra after receiving/delivering 2 or 3? Those attacks? Ok, let's talk for real here for a second. Bijuu Bomb, this is what takes to make Sasuke and Naruto's Perfect Susano'o and Avatar star breaking appart.

You posted the scans yourself, how are you that blind to literally state the exact opposite of what is shown in those scans?

They weren't even scratched at all from the Bijuu Bomb/Chidori clash.

you like it? you love it? Check the size of that thing, which considering it reaches the clouds is arguable 2000 meters. And compare it the meteor Kenpachi broke. Or Aizen's fragor that Ichigo no sold. Or Yhwach's shadows that were destroying all of Soul Society.

I "like" how you can read a scan and still not see what it shows, I "love" how you act cocky and still can't read a scan correctly.

And lol each and every feat you mentioned is nothing compared to Naruto and Sasuke's clash. Keep wanking them, though.

Just wanted to be sure you knew. Remember the difference in damage from both attacks.

Yeah, Naruto tanked an attack that puts every one of Ichigo's to shame. Why do I have to remember it, again?

No, Ichigo's Getsuga which are energy based will do jack. That's the difference. There is still his strength, speed, and Getsuga Enggraped in a sword.

His strength is nothing compared to Sasuke or Naruto's. Lol

His speed is nothing compared to Sasuke or Naruto's. Lol

Actually he does. Considering that Naruto doesn't have anything alike.

Reacting to a lightspeed attack, reacting to Madara, and reacting to an attack that crossed the entire surface of the moon in seconds is leagues above what Ichigo can do.

This is exactly what I mean when I say you "wank" feats.

Like which one?

Everything I just named.

Sage Jutsu doesn't make it real lightning and still works in milliseconds while normal lightning works in Microseconds.

So because Sage Jutsu uses natural energy, which is energy from the natural world, it isn't lightning speed because you say so?

And you try to insult my debating. Terrible.

Bro, the explosion that Naruto and Sasuke can deliver at their best, Ichigo can also take them at his normal path. Sorry if it hurts you but is the true.

Bro, the explosion that Ichigo can deliver at his best, Naruto can tank in his Base. Sorry if it hurts you but it's true.

I don't care about other debaters when is you the ones I'm debating. Look locust what is claiming. Toneri's attack being light speed, but I'm not saying you fall under the same category as he does.

So you don't care that other respected users on this site that are more knowledgeable than you and me on both series still agree that either Naruto or Sasuke can solo?

Good to know.

What context am I ignoring? Which one? I'm not low balling here at all. I'm arguing for Kenpachi and Ichigo being stronger.

1) Every piece of context regarding any feat of Naruto's or Sasuke's. You're the same guy who brought up Sasuke getting hurt by Momoshiki's lava jutsu while leaving out why he got hurt in the first place.

2) You definitely are lowballing.

It's kind of obvious if a plethora of users notice it too.

That's all, the only moment where I lowballed was when the other guy started saying and arguing for the size of mountains and explosion in Bleach. Saying the Bleach's explosions are smaller because we see multiple forests around huge ass mountains.

No, every time you mention a feat of Naruto's or Sasuke's destructive capability you lowball it.

Like which one? Naruto and Sasuke almost dying from an explosion they can only create when really amped? Or their Megazords being destroyed under an explosion that both Kenpachi and Ichigo have feats to be able to replicate/tank? Get bend.

1) The clash of their explosion is a better showing of DC than anything Ichigo or Kenpachi can dish out. That much is obvious to anyone.

2) Neither of their "Megazords" were destroyed in any explosion, unless you're referring to the one above which neither Ichigo or Kenpachi can replicate.

Keep wanking, dawg. You'll be the King of Bleach fanboys as well as Hell soon enough.

You do realize you trying to prove me wrong and convince me is what is debating right?

And you do realize that Naruto or Sasuke can still solo, whether or not you believe it?

This thread doesn't need your stamp of approval to have a definite answer. Get off your high horse.

No, thinking you saying "Naruto or Sasuke solo" without proves, when feats show the contrary, and I'm actually posting why is wrong but you choose to ignore it, while thinking that is what debating is is nothing other than blatant stupidity.

You posted the feats yourself and then proceeded to claim the exact opposite of what they showed just so you can keep wanking and try to prove a point that you yourself disproved.

You haven't posted why anything I've said is wrong, only continued to lowball and ignore any piece of context whatsoever.

I know it hurts, but that is what stupidity is.

Is this a threat or something? Because dude, you are a poor debater and that's a fact.

A threat? Lol.

You're following the same trend as every new Bleach fanboy: bump old threads to wank the same exact points, do so in every Bleach vs Naruto thread, lowball the hell out of any Naruto feat, and then leave. Like I said, I can name about eight other accounts that have done the same thing you're doing here.

And sure I am, which is why I had a nomination for the Debating Hall of Fame and have actually earned some respect from some of the most renowned debaters on this site.

first off, bumpoing an old threat is not an error is wanting to debate something.

You bump a thread if there is new information to bring that would change the already "consensus" agreement.

You didn't do that.

Second, if you read the comments before I bumped here, you and others have been debating the same way. Arguing you don't have to prove anything and if me or other read the manga we would know. I have read the manga, I have read databooks, and guess what? You are wrong.

And if you had a brain, you'd realize why. The Bleach duo didn't have the feats to compete back then, and they still don't now.

You clearly haven't read the manga, you clearly haven't read the databooks, and you clearly don't have the authority to claim that you're right and I'm wrong.

This has been backed up by the fact that the only people even arguing for the duo outside of yourself are people with less than 200 posts who also wank Bleach.

I have never said Bleach is better. I don't go by that type of comment as me arguing for victor of a battle. And again, what context have I ignored?

By making up your own stats for your preferred characters, you clearly have a hidden agenda.

They only limit themselves to mangas, just like you. I have read and followed every content that there is for Naruto and Bleach, guess what? You are wrong.

So limiting themselves to the source material is a bad thing now? That's new.

And again, every single post on this thread has only proven you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

No fanfiction. Kenpachi and Ichigo have greater strength and speed feats on paper. They can win.

It's definitely fan-fiction, seeing as how myself and others read the exact same paper as you do and come to completely different assessments.

Greater speed, greater strength and the means to stab and burn respectively.

False, false, and countered by healing and better defenses.

Greater strength, endurance and the means to stab, hack and slash both of them.

False, false, and countered by better defenses.

Again that word, and another excuse that translates, you can't prove anything.

Seeing as how you can't prove either of the duo don't solo, I'm not the one who can't prove something.

Come back when you have an actual argument that doesn't involve lowballing, wanking, the complete and utter disregard for anything related to common sense and/or context, and evidence that isn't from your own "made-up" power levels.

The problem is when you think they are adults. Kids this day man.

Didn't you heard the new sensation? Yhwach hates conflict/Wants to save the world. *Sarcarms*.

@kroczilla:

except they are. Concession accepted.

They're written by the same author as the series, they include information that is also present and corresponds to the Canon manga. Just because you don't like some of the "metaphors" used doesn't mean you get to label it as non-Canon.

And lol at you thinking that's a concession. You don't get to say that until you actually win a debate.

it kinda does though. Its the author's words after all using your own logic. Concession accepted btw.

So one sentence you're bashing the databook for using metaphors, which makes it unreliable and non-Canon in your own words, and the next you're trying to use of of those metaphors to refute a feat in the manga?

LOL gtfo. You're done.

what was shown in the manga was madara swinging his head though.

So the complete inability to answer my question just to avoid the words "I was wrong". Concession accepted.

guy is the fastest. Lol at kaguya who got tagged by literally everyone.

No he's not.

And literally everyone you say? Alright then show me any character outside of Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, or Sakura tagging Kaguya. I'll wait.

Nothing naruto and sasuke did combined reached what guy did to madara. Heck madara didnt even have time to use limb against madara despite earlier stating that he didnt want to get hit by guy directly. All he did was hide behind a tsb shield and shot tsb orbs at guy's trajectory.

Let's see:

1) Naruto blizted Madara and cracked the World Tree.

2) Sasuke blizted Madara and cut him in half.

3) Naruto combated Madara's Limbo clones perfectly, which have the exact same stats as Madara himself.

4) Naruto and Sasuke also forced him to use his Limbo Substitution to escape them.

They're faster than Guy. And so is Kaguya.

And i m pretty sure teleportatin, resenbijuu bombs, shadow clones etc.count as assorted techniques.

Read the manga:

how is that not a concession though? You literally brought no point foward.

So now you can't even read what I write?

Every ninja faction left the HQ and headed towards the battlefield, which was away from the HQ and towards where they all met up with Naruto and Bee. Seriously, learn to read a freaking map.

They were battling within the same country as hq . That was my point.

The same country and literally right next to the Frost Village. Which is why I'm telling you to learn to read a map.

And i m glad manga>>>my opinin. Since manga shows a pigeon to be faster than elite shinobis.

No, the manga shows it reaches three days to reach the sand Village from Konoha for Team 7, which you previously claimed was false. What's wrong, zilla? Don't want to admit you were wrong that bad, so instead you're whining about how a bird is supposedly faster than ninja?

again all your examples are far more powerful than either shikamaru or his dad, made what amounted to quick thoughts that barely constitute a sentence

1) So now the stronger a shinobi is, the quicker he can form a thought in his head? Th quicker he reads that thought in his head? Huh.

2) All of them constitute a sentence. How in the hell do you not see that?

If you honestly cant see the difference, then there isnt any point to this.

I agree, you're just going to completely gloss over the meaning behind it and continue to complain about how you were wrong about the distance between Suna and Konoha.

@kroczilla: 1) K. Then go ahead and stop already. Going on about it how you are is baiting, but it's not happening. Kinda don't really care what you think, you've shown me enough with your underhandedness, going so far as to trying to slander me with a blatent misquotes....are you all the same guy?

And I guess we're just ignoring my entire paragraph on why Mimihagi scaling doesn't work, and just repeating what you said anyway. That's cool. I'm used to it from you guys. Just keep ignoring the things inconvenient for you.

2) "Show me ONE INSTANCE WHERE ALL OF SOUL SOCIETY WAS SHOWN TO BE THE SIZE F A CITY (i cant believe i am actually having this conversation)"

-Uh...what? Im on a phone, but next time someone drops it I'll tag you, even though I'm sure you've already seen them all so it's not like there's magically gonna be more in the picture than the one same city it's always been.

"Ginjo stated that all objects have souls. The very fact that fullbringers showed they can use their abilities even in soul society withut problem clearly shows this to include the lands of soul society."

-Yea? And souls from soul society can come here and do stuff here, too...so? This is completely irrelevant. "Soul powers work in both places!" Well...there's souls in both places...so yea. This has nothing to do with size at all. Why did you even say this to me? Are you high?

"Please stop spouting ignorance in claimng ss to be a city. Its honestly embarassing."

-What is embarrassing is your entire arguement from the second you started, both here and in the messages. You're just repeating the sane things while not even addressing anything detrimental to your case. The points that do have a shot of sticking rest on the shoddiest, one shot foundations with literally nothing else to support them...and in Mimihafi's case, taken vastly out of proportion and context. This is right in league with King of Hell, I'm pretty sure you guys must be the same dude. I'm like...70% certain so far.

"The seireitei alone surpasses FIVE SPACED OUT CITIES IN SIZE."

-Yea, and they're part of that same city, which is Soul Society. It's a big city.

"And that merely their capital. Soul society is the entire world"

-Can you show me anyone anywhere saying that...ever? Where do they say anything resembling "this is our nameless capital, made of the Rukongai and serieti, on the planet of Soul Society"?

"seireitei and rukongai are residential areas that do not in anyway reflect the full size of ss."

-no, SS definately is made up of the Serieti and rukongai (380 districts, mybad), and that's it. They never tell us there is anything in it other than that. And the soul palace, but that came later.

"Heck the memories of nobody movie pretty much makes your point here moot."

-Only shows 1 city, so not really.

"Please i suggest you URGENTLY rwefresh your memory on bleach before replying this post."

-I'm feewing vewy wested and wefreshed, thank you.

"The meteor kenpachi destroyed wasnt even up to half of seireitei's size and"

-Width, you mean. It is unmistakably larger in both volume and mass. You only have to look at it.

"ywach absorbed the soul king who is respionsible for the continued existence of all the realms including earth."

-Yes, his existance held the entire universe...that doesn't make him universe level, the same way the zipper holding your coat together isn't your actual coat.

"Honestly, your ignorance is mind boggling."

-Ah, self criticism. Good on you, but try and keep it in your own head next time.

3. I'm pretty positive it was outright stated in the series, but it has admittedly been a while. I'll check later. None of the rest of your paragraph has any bearing on anything, you're just repeating what I already countered instead of responding to what I said. If you're going to keep using the KoH tactic of just repeating yourself endlessly without even properly addressing the most critical points then why should I bother even explaining? In regards to this, refer to my previous post because I'm not writing it again for your amusement.

Fix this behavior in your next post or we can be done too, I'm not talking just to be ignored and have to waste my time repeating what's already been said because you refuse to even address it. I'm already suspecting you're an alt, I'm seriously running out of reasons to talk to you. Dodging entire paragraphs is a good way to get write off as not worth my time.

@ash_kechup_: "He blocked a move that sliced the moon in half. How does that mean he has the ability to do the same thing?"

-I never said he could? I said it's moon level. He blocked a force that could cut the moon in half. At what point am I losing you?

"I pretty sure durability and power are two completely different concepts"

-Naruto blocked the blast with his cloak, and then with his cloak focused into his hand. That is a power feat. His actual, non blocking durability is actually far less.

Lol, that's not 1% of the mountain itself. Ichigo did this just from a small raise of his sword(meaning there was not much effort put into it). Its more like using my brain, then just scaling."

-I never said he wasn't stronger than that, and he has way better feats to show for it like tanking Fragor and Muugetsu. This is twice now you're arguing things I haven't said. Come on, man.

"For godsakes, there is no proof that Toneri's golden wheel was lightspeed and he was only able to dodge madara's light through precog given from the sage of six paths mode, which he can't even use anymore, it's similar to dms Kakashi."

-Oh, I can take it farther: If you're cutting with a beam, the beam needs to be growing fast enough to keep up with the swing. What cuts are the particles moving from the source to the end point, if the particles are not moving faster than the swing then it will not cut because they will scatter. Now chakra is not particles, tmk, it is a shapeless, flowing mass, but it still needs to be flowing from A to B faster than the swing to cut. In other words...the extending beam Naruto ran into and blocked? That was potentially even faster than the actual swing. :)

-Precog doesn't make someone less reactive, nor does it impact speed because he moved after the beam was fired. He did not move the same distance the beam did so he is slower in that time, but GG anyway.

"Ichigo was already faster than lightning in the first arc in the series and has shown consistently he can dodge or fight and even travel at such speed pretty fine."

-So?

@ash_kechup_: Where does it say that? They it gave an alt name, I guess Sea World is a planet, too?

Where do they specifically say Soul Society consists of more than the Serieti and Rukongai, that's all I'm asking. It's not like such a huge detail would just go unmentioned...

http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_71_19#gohere

Here, bottom left, Yourichi shows them a map of the city and affirms "this is Soul society" Checkmate #1

In context, from the bottom right:

ICHIGO: "So this is Soul society?"

YOURICHI: "That's right. This is the outskirts."

So I ask you...are you seriously going to argue she means the outskirts of a flufking planet and not the city she's showing them a map of? Come on. Checkmate #2

Soul Society is a city.

@kroczilla: That tag I promised you. Follow the address in post 325 for a map of all of Soul Society, right down to the outskirts.

@thelocust619: lets start;

1) souls in objects do not take part in the re incarnation cycle, they are simply there and are present inboth worlds in obviously equal mass else the balance of souls would be disrupted. Soul power hasnothing to do with it.

2) seireitei alone is much larger than a city as i have already shown. Seireitei and rokungai are clearly just resisdential areas. This was even clearly shown during the fkt arc when the whole of kurarkura town was transported to soul society in an area far outside rokungai (rokungai districts were literally nowhere in sight) and ichiho taking aizen went far beyond that for their final battle yet they were stil within soul society.

3) kenpachi's meteor was only as large as the central dome which made up roughly one fourth of seireitei. Please take time to read the manga.

4) your zipper analogy is very flawed (unless ofcourse your trousers falls apart and crumble out of existence should you zipper get broken).

@thelocust619: damn, your level of reach is honestly amazing. First of all how does a rough diagram made to quickly give use an idea of the structure in soul society (i.e. world building since that was the first time soul society was introduced) prove your point. Heck i also bring diagrams that explicitly show ss and earth to be the same size and be done with this by your logic ofcourse.

Heck here is a diagram from yourichi more recent than yours showing soul society and eaeth to be same sized.

http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/625/13

And it not like i havent already shown that there are areas far outside rokungai which along with seireitei are only resisdential areas.

Like i said, the memories of nobody movie pretty much settles. I would advise you watch it or atleast look into it before posting again.

@kroczilla: 1) I still have no idea why you even brought it up.

2) Yet we have Yourichi plainly identifying the Rukongai and Serieti as Soul Society, even so far as to point out they were literally on the outskirts. There are no outskirts on a round planet yet Soul Society clearly has borders, so it is not all encompassing.

3) A city is buildings, dude. Those buildings are not more than the meteor. I'm not gonna keep repeating why only comparing the width is faulty, if you can't understand more than 1 dimension then just move on.

4) A coat with no zipper comes apart, dude. It doesn't have to literally disintigrate for the analogy to be there. You seem to have gotten the idea just fine if thats yoyr biggest complaint, so it'd seem at this point you're just being difficult for no reason at all.

@kroczilla: "First of all how does a rough diagram made to quickly give use an idea of the structure in soul society (i.e. world building since that was the first time soul society was introduced) prove your point."

-It shows Soul Society is a confined area with borders, and thusly is just one city.

"Heck i also bring diagrams that explicitly show ss and earth to be the same size and be done with this by your logic ofcourse."

-Yours isn't a map lol its not meant to factually depict an area as mine is, it's a representation of an interaction between two dimensions. You need to stop. This is getting dumb.

"Heck here is a diagram from yourichi more recent than yours showing soul society and eaeth to be same sized."

-See above. This is really sad, btw. Comparing two blobs with a cartoon line between them to a map.

"And it not like i havent already shown that there are areas far outside rokungai which along with seireitei are only resisdential areas."

-Ik, you love repeating yourself. And making other people repeat themselves in turn. I gave it to you, remember? If memories of nobody made it in, then sure, we can say there's a whole planet under Soul Society. I never even disputed that there weren't things beyond Soul Society...after all, if it has outskirts, something must be beyond those outskirts.

"Like i said, the memories of nobody movie pretty much settles."

-and like I said...not really. The map of Soul Society settles it.

"I would advise you watch it or atleast look into it before posting again."

-Your advice sucks. I advise you to stop advising me.

In fact...why does this exact arguement feel familiar...oooh, you are an alt, aren't you? Because ik I'm not the first one to make this exact arguement, and you're responding with the exact things the last dude did before he got banned or something. I think that about wraps this up, no sense repeating history. Ik you won't give, you know I wont,because neither of us considers the other to be reasonable, so let's live to fight another day.

@thevivas: 1) can you show that kishi alone took time out to create the databooks.

2) nope. I am simply using yourlogic against you. And something being called undodgeable due to its implied speed isnt a metaphor, its a statement of fact.

3) actually you are the one who failed to provide proof showing madara aiming directly at naruto andnot swinging his head as was shown in the manga.

4) bruh guy is the fastest. Unless ofcourse you can show actual feats to the contrary. And not only where those people you mentioned the only ones to actually face kaguya but the fact that even sakura tagged her kinda destroys your point. Lol

5) naruto didnt blitz madara. Not only was madara still in shock that naruto was alive but he was still injured from fighting guy. Sasuke used his teleportation technique to surprise attack madara, not speed. Yes, naruto fought with limbo clones and forced madara to switch with his clones BUT against guy, he was getting blitzed so bad, he mostly relied on staying on the defense cause the moment he was exposed, guy blitzed and landed at least four hit from different angle so fast it was like madara was standing still. Another thing to consider is that guy was only oneperson while naruto and sasuke were a duo making use of special techniques and would obviously be ordinarily harder to keep track of in battle.

6) smh. They are battling in the same country with the hq yet made it the naruto in minutes while the hq was literally within the same country.

Heck that isnt even the only fact on this issue. Even jugo and karin (who is practically fodder tier) made it from konoha to the cloud and then frost country in minutes. Like i said earlier, the three days statement was merely for plot purposes.

7) i m not whining. Just stating a fact that a pigeon according to you is much faster than elite shinobis. Nit to mention, shinobis specificallymake use of body flicker speed techniques to achieve those levels of speed.

8) smh. The stronger shinobis have greater reaction feats. Not to mention, THEY WERENT IN ACTIVE COMBAT AND WERE HAVING GODDAMN CONVERSATIONS. Not simply forming a few words of thought that barely make up a full sentence. There was an exchanfge of info between multiple characters who werent even in active combat hence that feat DOES NOT apply in this scenerio.

@thelocust619: 1) it proves the point that earth and soul society need equal mass to maintain the balance of souls.

2) so just gonna ignore the fact the soul socirty has shown to extend far beyond seirreitei and rokungai which i already proved btw. Its much easier to admit you are wrong btw.

3) not even gonna bring up the kenpachi meteor again. Its quite clear you need glasses

4) a coat with n zipper simply comes loose, not fall apart or fade out of existence like what would hapen to all the realmd. Seriousl your reachis amazing.

@thelocust619: 1) already showed ss us more than just rokungai and seireitei though

2) yours isnt a map though (pls look up what a map means). Its a simply diagram showing the residential areas of ss as a form of world building. Yourichi's diagram which shows them to be equal in size is just as if nit more valid than the diagram you are hilariously trying to pass off as a map. It was made to show that ss and earth are two equal dimensions connected by the dangai with several pocket dimensions inbetween.

3) not a map. Not to mention the memores if nobody movie is much more recent and thus takes precedence

4) if you want to stew in ignorance, that honestly not my problem. Ignore my advise but do not make false accusations against me.

@kroczilla: 1) I see what you're saying now, I already agreed there's a planet there so I didn't understand that you were still trying to convince me of this. Idk why you are.

2) You proved that land exists beyond the city. That's great, but it only serves to hammer the one and only point I already agreed to. It does not undo the fact that Soul Society has borders. You don't know how much land is considered to be within or outside of those borders, so this contradicts nothing at all.

3) Lol whatever man

4) The part that's reaching is you're arguing symantics to avoid the actual point. It was an analogy of the Soul King's placement in a system, you're talking like it was an analogy of what specifically happens when the universe ends.... In other words you're pretty much having a different conversation than me right now. Nope. That's my que. See ya

@thevivas said:

@kingofhell:

Dude, you are debating... but... your completely going at it in the wrong way.

Oh the irony.

Check the dictionary and you will understand what irony is.

You follow databooks as well?

Indeed I do.

The you understand Sasuke's current sword > the sword he cut Madara in half.

Low on chakra? you mean the same guys that got recharged every 5 minutes. I think your understanding of low on chakra is very dull.

No, he was low. He didn't get a complete recharge every time he was healed, and then he fought Madara and then Kaguya right after Hagoromo gave him chakra.

he had enough time to recharge chakra between everybattle exept with Madara and Kaguya, which all he did was use a few Rasen Shuriken of different styles with Madara, and then we can say he used more with Kaguya, his Kage Bushin has always worn him out harder than his other techniques.

If he wasn't low on chakra, Sasuke wouldn't have said that he was. Your understanding of the manga is very dull if you don't know that.

Sasuke also says he is the strongest, yet Naruto right off shows his superiority in their fight and Kaguya's fight.

Is not like Obito had just given him 9 bijuus to recharge, is not like Kabuto had just healed sasuke, and Hagoromo had just given them a power up. Ending in low reserves of chakra is just prove they can't keep up with that lv of power for too long at the contrary of their predecessors who could go at it by an entire day.

1) Obito barely gave him a fraction of each Bijuu's power. Try reading the manga.

1-8 was a fraction. He give him half of the Kyuubi he had inside.

2) Both Naruto and Sasuke had fought Madara and then Kaguya after Hagoromo gave them the chakra. They didn't clash literally five minutes afterwards.

Which again just shows how he can't keep up that lv of power forever. When he and Sasuke fought they only were completely out when they clash in the explosion that broke their megazord (where they amped their powers to the maximum).

3) They can definitely keep up that level of power for a long time. You just don't understand the concept of "context".

No, you don't understand what context means, and how is used. Naruto and Sasuke were healed up completely in the battle with Madara. They then went and got the Chakra to seal Kaguya (the jutsu in their hands). After that they started fighting with their own reserves of chakra and what happened? The got almost killed because of how much power they were using.

I know the context, but it sure loves to contradict itself a lot when both Sasuke and Naruto were getting healed and recharged constantly. Like I said, if anything, it just proves they can't keep up with that lv of power for too long. Which is also shown in the movie, where Naruto's chakra reserve ends after resisting two attacks from Toneri.

1) You either know the context and ignore it, like most other Bleach debaters do, or you don't know it and make a fool of yourself. Whichever one it is, you clearly need a better understanding.

2) Naruto's chakra reserves didn't end after resisting two attacks from Toneri, what the hell are you talking about?

No, he was low completely needing some from Hinata to finally defeat Toneri at the end. The huge amount of power he needed to exert + Toneri absorbing some completely drained him.

Actually they will, Sasuke's sword can, they can.

Actually, they won't.

Yes they can, why? Let's put this up both of the teams going all out, once again, Sasuke's Susano'o and Naruto's Kyuubi Avatar almost being destroyed from the bijuu bomb, Kenpachi in Shikai can destroy a meteor the size of that explosion with just one swim and in Bankai his shockwaves alone are even greater than that. Both his Bankai and Ichigo's Hollow Powers + Bankai are essentially around the same lv. If Ichigo uses one he may be weaker. But even then he and Kenpachi both can take any of Naruto's Rasengan and Sasuke's attacks, and Kenpachi by himself is strong enough to do the same he did to Gerard to Sasuke without any problem. The biggest and only real threat to the team is Naruto, which can only take and dish out so much, while both Ichigo and Kenpachi won't be falling any easy. Ichigo by himself has been taking all day long attacks on the lv of Naruto's Rasenshuriken, like Yhwach's shadows

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or Aizen's fragor while using Bankai alone

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or his Hollow Power by separated. With just 1/3 of his power he could stop and no-sell Lanza del Relampago and brake it and contain the explosion in his hand,

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and dish out Cero in this size,

Gallery

and remember his strength, basically blowing up mountains with his movements and stopping Aizen with one hand,

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creating huge shockwaves and matching Yhwach blow for blow,

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and even killing him twice

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and Naruto's Bijuu dama get broken down by explosions less than Kenpachi's meteor then they deffinetely can take them on and beat them in pure raw power/strength.

Oh those same attacks they end up without chakra after receiving/delivering 2 or 3? Those attacks? Ok, let's talk for real here for a second. Bijuu Bomb, this is what takes to make Sasuke and Naruto's Perfect Susano'o and Avatar star breaking appart.

You posted the scans yourself, how are you that blind to literally state the exact opposite of what is shown in those scans?

They weren't even scratched at all from the Bijuu Bomb/Chidori clash.

Check again, there are multiple pieces of their megazord around them.

you like it? you love it? Check the size of that thing, which considering it reaches the clouds is arguable 2000 meters. And compare it the meteor Kenpachi broke. Or Aizen's fragor that Ichigo no sold. Or Yhwach's shadows that were destroying all of Soul Society.

I "like" how you can read a scan and still not see what it shows, I "love" how you act cocky and still can't read a scan correctly.

And lol each and every feat you mentioned is nothing compared to Naruto and Sasuke's clash. Keep wanking them, though.

Bro, Yhwach's shadows is comparable at least above, Mugetsu is above, Kenpachi's meteor is comparable as well. I love how you keep denying it. And if you don't remember, the two of them were amped to the point they couldn't become any more stronger.

Just wanted to be sure you knew. Remember the difference in damage from both attacks.

Yeah, Naruto tanked an attack that puts every one of Ichigo's to shame. Why do I have to remember it, again?

Energy based attack. Ichigo has piercing/slashing/hacking damage, same as Kenpachi.

No, Ichigo's Getsuga which are energy based will do jack. That's the difference. There is still his strength, speed, and Getsuga Enggraped in a sword.

His strength is nothing compared to Sasuke or Naruto's. Lol

His speed is nothing compared to Sasuke or Naruto's. Lol

So you claim, but neither have done anything close to Ichigo's feat or Kenpachi's.

Actually he does. Considering that Naruto doesn't have anything alike.

Reacting to a lightspeed attack, reacting to Madara, and reacting to an attack that crossed the entire surface of the moon in seconds is leagues above what Ichigo can do.

Naruto new is coming so he focused all of his chakra into his hand to block it. That's all. Madara has no feats to say much. And Naruto has no light speed feats, if you refer to lightfang, Naruto's seen evading Madara's movement to avoid being hit, in both anime and manga.

This is exactly what I mean when I say you "wank" feats.

Yet I don't see any feat comparable to Ichigo's.

Sage Jutsu doesn't make it real lightning and still works in milliseconds while normal lightning works in Microseconds.

So because Sage Jutsu uses natural energy, which is energy from the natural world, it isn't lightning speed because you say so?

And you try to insult my debating. Terrible.

Sage Jutsu increase the power of normal jutsu, doesn't make it equal to the real thing and again. Zetsu's claims lightning in naruto moves at milliseconds. Your debate skill is pitiful.

Bro, the explosion that Naruto and Sasuke can deliver at their best, Ichigo can also take them at his normal path. Sorry if it hurts you but is the true.

Bro, the explosion that Ichigo can deliver at his best, Naruto can tank in his Base. Sorry if it hurts you but it's true.

You mean Mugetsu? Sure, but that would be energy based attacks. Ichigo has a sword that works perfectly fine with Naruto.

I don't care about other debaters when is you the ones I'm debating. Look locust what is claiming. Toneri's attack being light speed, but I'm not saying you fall under the same category as he does.

So you don't care that other respected users on this site that are more knowledgeable than you and me on both series still agree that either Naruto or Sasuke can solo?

Haven't meet andyone that can say anything besides the same stupidity you and locust have brought me here.

What context am I ignoring? Which one? I'm not low balling here at all. I'm arguing for Kenpachi and Ichigo being stronger.

1) Every piece of context regarding any feat of Naruto's or Sasuke's. You're the same guy who brought up Sasuke getting hurt by Momoshiki's lava jutsu while leaving out why he got hurt in the first place.

Except I'm not. Why did he got hurt in the first place? Remember in Kaguya's dimension he was trying not to fall in lava, why? Because he could die the same. He was k'oed by Momoshiki's techique because his endurance isn't as good as you want it to be.

2) You definitely are lowballing. It's kind of obvious if a plethora of users notice it too.

No I'm not, and we both know that. Simply because both Naruto and Sasuke are weak to piercing and heat based attacks is not my fault. You got problems? Go talk to Kishimoto or the guy writing Naruto to try to retcon it. Until then, Naruto in his Bijuu Cloak Mode will get impaled and Sasuke will burn.

That's all, the only moment where I lowballed was when the other guy started saying and arguing for the size of mountains and explosion in Bleach. Saying the Bleach's explosions are smaller because we see multiple forests around huge ass mountains.

No, every time you mention a feat of Naruto's or Sasuke's destructive capability you lowball it.

Sure. How am I lowballing, the final explosion where both Naruto and Sasuke were amped as thier best can be seen both the statues and trees around the Valley. Not my fault is how Kishimoto decided to write it.

Like which one? Naruto and Sasuke almost dying from an explosion they can only create when really amped? Or their Megazords being destroyed under an explosion that both Kenpachi and Ichigo have feats to be able to replicate/tank? Get bend.

1) The clash of their explosion is a better showing of DC than anything Ichigo or Kenpachi can dish out. That much is obvious to anyone.

No it isn't. Considering Kenpachi's meteor alone is far bigger than the explosion both Naruto and Sasuke made.

2) Neither of their "Megazords" were destroyed in any explosion, unless you're referring to the one above which neither Ichigo or Kenpachi can replicate.

In the Chidori vs Bijuu you can see them being shattered and affected, in the final clash with amped versions to the maximum of their abilities, both Perfect Susano'o and Kyuubi Avatar were destroyed in the process.

Keep wanking, dawg. You'll be the King of Bleach fanboys as well as Hell soon enough.

What's a mob to a King.

You do realize you trying to prove me wrong and convince me is what is debating right?

And you do realize that Naruto or Sasuke can still solo, whether or not you believe it?

I don't see the prove.

This thread doesn't need your stamp of approval to have a definite answer. Get off your high horse.

It doesn't need it, nor yours is the last word.

No, thinking you saying "Naruto or Sasuke solo" without proves, when feats show the contrary, and I'm actually posting why is wrong but you choose to ignore it, while thinking that is what debating is is nothing other than blatant stupidity.

You posted the feats yourself and then proceeded to claim the exact opposite of what they showed just so you can keep wanking and try to prove a point that you yourself disproved.

Yes, I posted the feats myself, to show just how much you and other overrate the feats Naruto and Sasuke have and compare them to Kenpachi and Ichigo. The fact Kenpachi's meteor was as big as the Seireitei and Yhwach's Shadows were also destroying it and doing even more damage, is what puts Naruto and Sasuke's feats in shame.

You haven't posted why anything I've said is wrong, only continued to lowball and ignore any piece of context whatsoever.I know it hurts, but that is what stupidity is.

Really? Let's see, did you figure out yet that Kenpachi was in the epicenter of the meteor and emerged without any damage. That same Kenpachi still possessing his eye-patch and only in Shikai tanked the explosion. Without the eye-patch and in Bankai he can both dish out more than that and take more than that. When Ichigo was taking Yhwach's shadows he was worn out and without the Hollow Powers which gives him even more of a boost. And that when he fought Aizen he got to bitchslap all of his fragors that he had put together at the same time? This Ichigo in a weaker version than current Bankai Ichigo and still no Hollow Powers activated. Meaning even without both Kenpachi and Ichigo being at their maximum when doing the feats are still more than comparable with both Naruto and Sasuke.

Is this a threat or something? Because dude, you are a poor debater and that's a fact.

A threat? Lol. You're following the same trend as every new Bleach fanboy: bump old threads to wank the same exact points, do so in every Bleach vs Naruto thread, lowball the hell out of any Naruto feat, and then leave. Like I said, I can name about eight other accounts that have done the same thing you're doing here.

Ok, so? Still haven't proven how either Naruto or Sasuke are winning considering Sasuke is the weakest in the group.

And sure I am, which is why I had a nomination for the Debating Hall of Fame and have actually earned some respect from some of the most renowned debaters on this site.

Congratulations, this site has low standard for debaters if that's the case.

first off, bumpoing an old threat is not an error is wanting to debate something.

You bump a thread if there is new information to bring that would change the already "consensus" agreement. You didn't do that.

Except you know, bringing the fact both Kenpachi and Ichigo have greater stats.

Second, if you read the comments before I bumped here, you and others have been debating the same way. Arguing you don't have to prove anything and if me or other read the manga we would know. I have read the manga, I have read databooks, and guess what? You are wrong.

And if you had a brain, you'd realize why. The Bleach duo didn't have the feats to compete back then, and they still don't now.

Mostly, no one even bothered to bring the obvious feats and you and other were ignoring or lowballing.

You clearly haven't read the manga, you clearly haven't read the databooks, and you clearly don't have the authority to claim that you're right and I'm wrong.

I have read both, and I know more than you when you apparently either were acting dumb about Sasuke's sword being superior to the one he had before or simply didn't know. Which either make you a troll or a dumbass.

This has been backed up by the fact that the only people even arguing for the duo outside of yourself are people with less than 200 posts who also wank Bleach.

Don't know those people, don't care.

I have never said Bleach is better. I don't go by that type of comment as me arguing for victor of a battle. And again, what context have I ignored?

By making up your own stats for your preferred characters, you clearly have a hidden agenda.

What stats am I making up when the feats are right there.

They only limit themselves to mangas, just like you. I have read and followed every content that there is for Naruto and Bleach, guess what? You are wrong.

So limiting themselves to the source material is a bad thing now? That's new.

No, limit themselves to only the manga, and not read all source materials is a bad thing. Specially when you are claiming a supposed knowledge is obvious you don't have.

And again, every single post on this thread has only proven you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

You keep saying that. I don't see you proving me wrong.

No fanfiction. Kenpachi and Ichigo have greater strength and speed feats on paper. They can win.

It's definitely fan-fiction, seeing as how myself and others read the exact same paper as you do and come to completely different assessments.

Really? Do you read both of them? Yet somehow claim Naruto getting stabbed by possibly the more sharpest sword in the series and falling to his knees is low show because weaker versions have been shown to no-sell/block swords from FUDDER or weaker characters. Or Sasuke being k'oed by Momoshiki is also low balling when is known Sasuke seems that he would die/receive great damage form falling into a volcano. But Naruto almost no-selling two attacks capable of splitting the moon is somehow following the context of the series, even though both Naruto and Sasuke have gone down by far lower attacks, in far stronger versions. And that neither Kenpachi nor Ichigo can stab Naruto while Sasuke and Naruto can solo the two of them. You my friend, at best have only flip through the pages and read over them. That's not reading.

Greater speed, greater strength and the means to stab and burn respectively.

False, false, and countered by healing and better defenses.

Is not false as already proven by feats and healing on get you so much if you don't have a head. And defense? Sorry but both the avatar and susano'o can only protect them from soo much.

Greater strength, endurance and the means to stab, hack and slash both of them.

False, false, and countered by better defenses.

Same as above.

Again that word, and another excuse that translates, you can't prove anything.

Seeing as how you can't prove either of the duo don't solo, I'm not the one who can't prove something.

You are the one who is claiming that they solo. If you got the feats to claim that, then explain them to me.

Come back when you have an actual argument that doesn't involve lowballing, wanking, the complete and utter disregard for anything related to common sense and/or context, and evidence that isn't from your own "made-up" power levels.

Again more excuses to not give an actual argument.

@thelocust619:

1)????? Is this a concession?

2) again not only is seireitei alone much larger than a city but i literally just debunked your failed attempt at trying to place borders on soul society based solely on a random diagram of the residential areas in ss.

3) o.k.

4) your analogy is wrong for the simple fact that the entire existence of all worlds rely on the soul king. The existence of a coat or trouser does not rely on a zipper which only serves the main purposes of comfort and avoiding embarassing situations.

@kroczilla: 1) If all that was to argue that there is planet there, yes, I agreed to that back in like our first or second exchange. You can stop now. I understand. You're done. It's over. I get it. Chill.

2) Cities are different sizes dude. It IS a city, it can be a big one, but it can't be bigger than what it is. "That city is bigger than a city!" Lmao! How about: "That road is bigger than a road!" Or "That lunchbox is bigger than a lunchbox!" Have you realized we're not going to come to an agreement yet? I have. Im pretty sure there's no way I can convince you of anything rational, and I'm not buying the whole nameless city on planet Soul Society fanfic when the city was straight up identified as Soul Society....so what, do you wanna go in circles for eternity? Is that the plan?

As for your "debunking"...Nothing you provided had anything at all to do with SS not having borders. I understand you feel the need to boast about the concession you'll never get to feel good about yourself...but you're lying to yourself. And it's sad. The real truth is nothing changed. You still have your opinion, I still have mine, and we both accomplished literally nothing new here in this grand waste of time, thank you for that. What you are doing is the classic "announce how victorious you think you are as if people somehow can't just read the thread and decide on their own"....yea, that's not desperate. Lol.

3) That has nothing at all to with the point of the analogy, you're arguing it's merit on completely different criteria, and avoiding the point entirely. You can't even act suprised when I ignore you, because this is a ridiculously pointless arguement you're trying to have. Now go ahead and get that boasting out of your system, we both know you can't just drop it.

This is sad...

Lol what happens when the ninja duo gets EVEN better feats which is inevitable?

Naruto and Sasuke these days oppose moon splitting global civilization enders if Foddergo and Kenny don't fit the bill get em da fuq outta here!

@thelocust619: 1) so concession accepted. The planet btw is soul society which balances with earth btw. Just educating you.

2) first of all seireitei is a city the same way texas is a city (i.e. not the smartest thing to say). Secondly i literally debunked your so calledproof the instant you posted it and provided more up to date info showing soul society to be the same size as earth (including the now canon memories of nobody which is far more recent than your so called proof

https://m.reddit.com/r/bleach/comments/3zfvzj/the_first_bleach_movie_is_confirmed_to_be_canon/

and the diagram of yourichi clearly depicting both worlds as equal in size since apperently diagrams=checkmate per your logic).

You literally have nothing except for a long debunked "proof" simply by the fact that kurakura town in soul society but nowhere close to rukongai talkless of seireitei.

3) your analogy was illogical. No amount of word twisting or so called context is changing that fact. Zippers are not the equivalent of the soul king's role.

Someone's destructive capability has nothing to do with the person actually winning the fight. I already explained this in my post above this.

@ash_kechup_: First off, if it were plain durability it would be a massive outlier, because he has been damaged by far less both before or since.

His cloak is part of his power, and we see he specifically focused it in order to block it....so he blocked it with his power. Unless you're saying Naruto would be just as unharmed had he not defended himself (in which case defending himself was pointless), it is a power feat. I am personally not of the mind that Naruto would have been so well were his back turned/not actively defending himself.

Im not even shooting for light speed, though. All that is just to show how easy it is to argue for it. I'm only going for "remotely close", which is well within reason and still more than Ichigo could even dream. Considering the half dozen other feats, listed countless times already, that Naruto has that are well over Ichigo's lightning+...There isnt even a need to fight for this point. You can disagree on Golden Wheel, it's not really a critical issue.

In VOTE 1, Sasuke's precog allowed him to move before Naruto, which is why he was "faster". Sasuke moved first. In Naruto's case, he began moving after the beam was already fired: it doesn't matter if he knew it was coming. Madara moved first.

What? Nothing about Naruto's speed is inconsistent, he even has multiple showings for each speed tier. Proving Ichigo can consistently move slower than Naruto doesn't help anything...also I question your use of the word consistent, considering he has literally no relevant current feats. In fact, let me address this again:

Lightning is garbage. For both series. It was our speed checkpoint for both series for like 5 YEARS AGO, with SS arc Ichigo, Kakashi, and Itachi...all of these characters are trash now. Idk what's with the two or three people coming out of the woodworks trying to scale off lightning like it's throwback thursday. It has been irrelevant to both series for years now. Noone is putting anything over even war arc KCM Naruto using freakin lightning scaling. It's like trying to scale to moden PCs by saying "well he's faster than Windows 95!"

This statement actually isn't true at all. DC is a major factor in how battles come out around here. It's not the only factor, but unfortunately the Naruto team doesn't just outshine bleach in DC. The naruto team also has the speed advantage, the hax/versatility advantage, the durability advantage, and the range advantage. There's literally no argument that would allow the bleach team to win here. You're one of the only holdouts siding with them, and everyone has been trying to explain how pointless that is. You really need to stop.

@ash_kechup_: You haven't even questioned my knowledge of his speed feats. You didn't even show any knowledge of speed feats. You just said his bankai increases his speed and then listed stronger forms. First off, none of that is new to me, it's all common knowledge. All it proves is he is faster than he was, to scale him to something else he needs actual feats in comparison to something else, which is something the rushed final arc was not kind to him about. The things Ichigo actually can be compared to are slower than Naruto, and simply saying Ichigo is better than he was before, as you are, is not enough. Thats an empty arguement.

Also he did not react to teleportation, he reacted to Aizen after he teleported. He didn't do a single thing about the teleportation itself, nor could he. Also, there are teleporters in Naruto too so idk how bringing this up at all is supposed to somehow set Ichigo apart.

Maybe you didn't read what I said right: I put "faster" in quotes for a reason. You just tried correcting me by saying exactly what I said in different words. Let me reword it again, so you know exactly what I am saying: Sasuke used his precog to begin countering Naruto's next movements before he could even finish his first, so in other words, as I said, he was starting his movements before Naruto was, giving him more time per movement in order to deal with Naruto's higher speed. So we are clear: We are in agreeance here. No need to counter.

Naruto's precog does not effect movement speed. He moved out of the way after the beam was fired and before it could hit him. The fact that he knew it was coming is not making his body move any slower. In this case, Madara moved first, then Naruto's movements began and ended before Madara finished.

Ichigo never once outpaced teleportation or Almighty. He reacted to Aizen after he teleported and he was literally powerless on his own against future manip. Neither of these are speed feats. Also, again, with the teleporter...did you forget Sasuke can teleport too? Naruto had no trouble either, and Sasuke is even faster than Aizen (yet even here, just like Ichigo, Naruto could do nothing to actually interfere with the teleportation itself...because teleportation is "instant") lol so again...how the heck does doing nothing about Aizen teleporting make Ichigo faster? For example, if Aizen could teleport his sword into Ichigo and Ichigo actually dodged the actual teleportation, you'd have something. Instead, you have Aizen teleporting behind him totally uninterrupted and THEN attacking. You have Aizen teleporting away totally uninterrupted. In both cases Ichigo just stood there while he teleported, that's not reacting to teleportation.

Btw...if someone DID dodge teleportation with raw speed, then it's probably not teleportation. Teleportation is instant. Instant means no time elapses at all. Speed is measured by time, there is no speed faster than no time.

@ash_kechup_:

"Oh really? Then prove it."

Prove what? That DC is important to a fight? Obviously if a character's DC is higher than his enemy's durability, he can one-shot. Done.

"So does Deidara solos 90% everyone because he has high Dc? Lol"

What on earth does Deidara have to do with any of this? For starters, Deidara doesn't even do his city busting or suicide attacks as a first move. He certainly can't solo every character b/c he has those attacks. Who even says that?

"I agree on the durability and maybe destructive capability,

Maybe DC huh? Let's just forget about Naruto's moon level stuff for a minute. Is Ichigo even a multi mountain buster by feats? Because Naruto was a while ago before his last upgrade.

but not the speed or versatility. ichigo has proven himself to be very fast and versatile, probably even more then naruto"

Based on? Pre time skip, he was shitting himself at the thought of facing someone with an attack that was mach 500 (later revealed to be a lie). Post time skip, his best speed feat is reacting to Candice's lighting attack, and that's only impressive assuming her attacks are actually lightning speed. Pray tell what speed feats are you even referring to in order to place Ichigo at -- wait, what speed are you even saying Ichigo is? Naruto has reacted to a beam of light (I'm sure someone already mentioned it, and you're probably ignoring it or something) and reacted to Toneri's attack, which even if you lowball the hell out of it, is still above anything you could possibly put Ichigo at. Hell, I could lower Naruto and Sasuke down to Ichigo's speed, and the ninja duo would still stomp. And lol, what versatility does Ichigo have? I'm assuming you can't even be referring to Kenpachi -- the guy's a one trick pony, with nothing but DC to his name.

"Have you ever heard of something called ad populum? Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it true and considering the bias a majority of users have towards bleach, I wouldn't be surprised that something like Naruto that is heavily wanked her would have more votes. That's the thing about comic vine. I can make an argument instead of hoping on a hate bandwagon."

So you respond to perceived Naruto wank by wanking Bleach in turn? Neat. There is no hate bandwagon; there's just too many Bleach debaters that come around lowballing Naruto feats and wanking Bleach feats to absurd levels.

Prove what? That DC is important to a fight? Obviously if a character's DC is higher than his enemy's durability, he can one-shot. Done.

Again you didn't read my earlier post. Saying a character is multi-mountain level , moon busting etc. alone and leaving it at that is a really stupid way to measure a characters power imo. In most cases it has no relevance to a fight, because explosions do widespread damage, but not much to individual durable people. Chidori and rasenshuriken for example don't explode, but do much more damage to a person than most of those attacks. Bleach characters are more of the latter, the types of attacks they use aren't meant for destroying the the platform or the battle field, but mainly the person there fighting. They even have moves reserved for focusing on there target and they literally take others to different dimensions to execute this(Bankai).

What on earth does Deidara have to do with any of this? For starters, Deidara doesn't even do his city busting or suicide attacks as a first move. He certainly can't solo every character b/c he has those attacks. Who even says that?

You said that DC matters right, Deidara is a character with high Dc, yet he isn't even considered top tier, I'm starting to see the double standards. The fact that people are so fixated off of, how big a characters explosions are to the point that they become blind to the conclusion that a wide spread explosion isn't that important on a singular matchup, is just saddening.

Maybe DC huh? Let's just forget about Naruto's moon level stuff for a minute. Is Ichigo even a multi mountain buster by feats? Because Naruto was a while ago before his last upgrade.

Wait, let me stop you there. Blocking a moon level attack does not mean in any way that Naruto can do the same so, that statement is nothing more than a fallacy

Based on? Pre time skip, he was shitting himself at the thought of facing someone with an attack that was mach 500 (later revealed to be a lie). Post time skip, his best speed feat is reacting to Candice's lighting attack, and that's only impressive assuming her attacks are actually lightning speed. Pray tell what speed feats are you even referring to in order to place Ichigo at -- wait, what speed are you even saying Ichigo is? Naruto has reacted to a beam of light (I'm sure someone already mentioned it, and you're probably ignoring it or something) and reacted to Toneri's attack, which even if you lowball the hell out of it, is still above anything you could possibly put Ichigo at. Hell, I could lower Naruto and Sasuke down to Ichigo's speed, and the ninja duo would still stomp. And lol, what versatility does Ichigo have? I'm assuming you can't even be referring to Kenpachi -- the guy's a one trick pony, with nothing but DC to his name.

Aizen was so fast that it looked like teleportation skills, but he couldn’t do anything against Ichigo. It’s safe to say that it wasn’t even Ichigo’s full power. He’s pretty damn fast! Not lowballing, your just overrating ever little feat and making it out like naruto is goku or something. I'm not dwelling on this topic, I've argued this a plethora of times, and it really does get frustrating repeating the same thing over and over again.

So you respond to perceived Naruto wank by wanking Bleach in turn? Neat. There is no hate bandwagon; there's just too many Bleach debaters that come around lowballing Naruto feats and wanking Bleach feats to absurd levels.

I'm not wanking bleach, just giving it the respect it deserves. I've seen various nonsensical BS matchups on this forum, where people say bleach loses and I just find it hilarious and pretty sad. Complaining about wank from another series, when Naruto actually gets worse wank is hypocritical. Please don't let me get started on Itachi wank threads