Maul & Dooku vs. Vader & Luke

VS.

Rules

• RotJ - Vader & Luke
• SoD - Darth Maul
• Location : Death Star
• Legends / Canon both are available

Vader and Luke 6-7/10

I'd say the weakest link here is Luke's force power. It simply pales in comparison to everyone else's. On the other hand, everyone is relatively close in dueling skill. So I'll take Dooku and Maul.

Hmmm I would say Luke is actually the second best duelist here (with the Count being the first). He was an equal with Vader even when he was holding back, and the moment he fought aggresively he gained an upper-hand against him.

That being said, he lacks the overall power compared to the rest of the team. Granted, his TP feats stomps everyone here, but that's all but uselss in a duel, and his TK strength is just not good enough to compete with Maul or the Count. All things considered - I do think Vader is the most powerful combatant here and would take a majority on anyone on team two, but Luke would likely loose a majority to everyone on team 1.

I'm going with Dooku and Maul for a 6-7/10 majority.

Dooku has lightning, Luke has no defence against lightning, i don't know about Vader, i guess he could block it with his saber, but 1 tiny spark would kill him because of his mechanic body .

I'll take Dooku and Maul .

LOL @ one tiny spark of Lightning kill Vader. Vader has tanked Lightning attacks far more powerful than Dooku's and lived to tell the tale.

Also, Luke could deflect Dooku's Lightning with his blade, or even deflect it with Force Deflection (albeit, that's probably me reaching, but it's not impossible)

@dccomicsrule2011:

Did you see the scene where Sidious barely hits Vader with lightning , which caused Vaders dead in Rotj ?

And do you really think if Anakin couldn't deflect lightning first time against Dooku, ( after he had been trained in the jedi temple for 10 years ) Luke can ?

Team 1

Maul annihilates Luke with telepathy and a Force Storm simultaneously while Dooku rips Vader limb from limb with his bare hands.

@jantjepeter:

Palpatine's lightning is on another level compared to most Sith, so that does not transfer over to Dooku's Lightning. I can name multiple times in the EU where Vader has tanked Force Lightning and electric based attacks and still kept going.

Also, ROTJ Luke is sueprior to Anakin by AotC. His strength in the Force, versatility, and control supersedes Anakin's. And so does his physical capabilities.

I will say Maul and Dooku because I agree with i_like_swords

Team 2. Luke fought evenly with Vader. Palpatine replaced Dooku with Vader because he knew Vader would become better than Tyranous. Dooku is better than Maul cause he beat Anakin and Obiwan. Anakin and Obiwan are better than Quigon and Obiwan who fought evenly with Maul. I think so cause at least Anakin is better than Obiwan when he was a padawan. So using the transitive property of math, I can cut out all the middle men and say Luke is better than Maul.

@dccomicsrule2011:

Ok, Vader might be able to deal with the lightning , but do you really think Luke is experienced at defending from it ?

Considering he never heard of it before, as he wouldn't of thrown his lightsaber away against Sidious .

( If Yoda somehow mentioned it to Skywalker, skywalker would of known Sith lords use it and he wouldn't of thrown he's lightsaber away at the end )

@ninjawarrior268:

Sidious didn't know Anakin would lose half his mid chlories , and end up with a limited physical body .

If Maul goes over to the light side and uses non-Sith Juyo aka Vaapad he can solo by channeling the Darkness of Luke towards Vader, thus shutting down his life support. From there Dooku can use Dun Moch to make Luke kill himself over the guilt of his incestuous behaviour with Leia.

luke and vader.

Vader has more powerful TK feats than Dooku but as far as dueling skill goes he is certainly not Dooku's superior. Vader actually lost a good chunk of his midichlorians when he was turned into Vader, and Sidious originally had plans for Anakin superceding him not Vader whom came nowhere close. Quigon and Obiwan did not fight evenly with Maul. Qui-Gon was outmatched and Obi-Wan got lucky/amped. Your logic is flawed because you're ignoring the context of what happened in TPM.

Stop it. It's completely ridiculous that people like you and ShootingNova think that movie Luke Skywalker is even comparable to top Jedi Masters of the prequels.

Do you realize that Darth Vader was never bloodlusted when he fought Luke in the movies? Always empathetic, always trying to convert Luke, never intending on killing his son. And yet the only way Luke could defeat Vader in combat was to become bloodlusted and catch Vader by surprise. Vader always held back against Luke. You know who Vader didn't hold back against? Have you ever read about the 8 Jedi on Kessel who tried to team up against Vader?

Please give me evidence or logic that would suggest that Luke is not the LEAST powerful/skilled person in this list. Because he doesn't have any impressive feats.

@shootingnova

Can't wait to see you quote from the novels and deem them as be-all-end-all proof.

Well, since my god Damn message got deleted, I'll have to post this again. The way I would see it is this. The two teams approach, and Vader senses Dooku is the more powerful on his team, so he starts to battle him to defend his son. This leaves Luke and Maul to fight. I could see Dooku spamming lightning over at Luke while fighting Vader, allowing Luke to be distracted and getting killed by Maul. However, Dooku was overconfident and got overpowered by Vader while doing this, also getting killed. This would leave Maul and Vader, in which case I see Vader taking a 7-8/10 majority.

....Luke threw his lightsaber away as a means of symbolism, he defied the Emperor and wasn't going to turn to the dark side. It had nothing to do with Sidious' Force Lightning or anything.

Going with team 2. Also considering palpatines level of force lightning and how long luke lasted says something to his durability. Dookus lightning will most likely me.mkre of a distraction than actually hurt luke. We have no idea if luke can block the lightning cause hes never had his saber when someone used it. He is smart enough to figure it out.

Well if Anakin beat Dooku and a blood lusted padawan Obi beat maul...

Vader wins luke also contributes.

Also I don't think maul has ever used force storm but it doesn't matter legends is non canon

@obi_wan__: Could you seriously not tell that my posts were a joke aside from my first one? ...

No most people post like that.

@wolfrazer:

dccomicsrule2011

Ok, i could believe you that he would rather sacrifice himself than going into the dark side , but still , what makes you so sure Luke in rotj is so mutch better than Anakin in rots ? And that Luke could resist lightning on the first time he faces it , and Anakin couldn't ?

nerdchore :

Hwo said Sidious was going all out with his lightning against Luke ? it seemed like he dosed the Lightning , and only at the end full power , so don't say Luke is better proofed against lightning than anyone else ...

Besides how in hell can everyone say Luke is even good ??

He barely had training, we know Anakin was atleast as talented as him , + Anakin had SO mutch more training and experience behind him than Luke .

I am sure Dooku could just choke Luke, force lightning Luke as he did against Anakin, Maul could just force push him everytime he got close to them fighting Vader ...

Isn't Rotj luke being extremely overrated or am i missing something here ?

@i_like_swords: YES! MY GOD HOW DO YOU COME UP WITH SUCH BRILLIANT IDEAS?!

But wait. You already said that Maul would solo, so why would you bring in Dooku using Dun Moch on Luke? lol

@jantjepeter: ....What else would it be? The Emperor was wanting Luke to kill his dad, to take the same path he took and become his new apprentice. Luke realized what he was becoming, stopped, defied the Emperor by throwing away his saber, saying he wouldn't kill Vader and declaring that he was a Jedi.

I'm sure there is proof for that....aside from what is obviously shown in the movie, but I don't have it on hand. If you really want proof though...

@dccomicsrule2011@shootingnova

I really don't think I should be bothering with someone that sounds completely rude and blatantly denies quotes when a picture/video can be interpreted in so many different ways but:

The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.

Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.

--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #111

You are unwise to lower your defenses,” Vader warned. His anger was layered, now—he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight...then he could do that, too.

--Taken from Return of the Jedi

BTW thank you Silver2467 for the quotes.

"You underestimate the power of the dark side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny."

*throws lightsaber at Luke*

Remember that Luke was holding back too and didn't want to kill his father? Yeah...

He even says it outright on Dagobah.

Edit: Also:

Palpatine patted Luke's captured lightsaber as it lay on the arm of his chair, then ordered the Death Star's gunners to fire the station's superlaser at the orbiting Rebel cruisers. With this latest provocation, Luke couldn't help but act. And if he struck out in anger, as Anakin Skywalker had done in a desperate bid to stop Mace Windu, he would be lost to the dark side forever.

At last Luke called the saber to his hand with the Force. Vader was waiting on the downswing, intercepting Luke's green blade before it could bisect Palpatine's head. The Emperor cackled with pleasure, showing a mouthful of ruined teeth.

The battle between Luke and Vader raged throughout the throne room. Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back, even ducking beneath a shadowed staircase when the fighting grew too intense. Vader again took the offensive, this time with words. Sensing that his son had been holding back, he attempted a mental probe, and arrived at an inescapable and astonishing deduction. Padme had given birth to twins.

A daughter. He knew nothing about her, but the Skywalker bloodline suggested she would make a suitable apprentice. Perhaps she could provide the missing piece in the fulfillment of Vader's vision, and the two of them could rule the galaxy as father and daughter.

Luke's scream of pure rage stunned Vader. It was all he could do to ward off his son's blows as Luke advanced on him, roiling Force energy leading him like a wave front. Retreating to the dead end of the core shaft railing, Vader cried in shock as Luke severed his wrist, taking his lightsaber with it.

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning.

--Taken from Return of the Jedi

And thank you @dccomicsrule2011 for the quotes.

@jantjepeter: Oh and you should look at this too. Don't mind the "rude" comment, that's meant for the other guy. Just look at the quotes if you are unsure of ROTJ Luke's power levels.

@wolfrazer:

I edited my post can you re-read it : p

Team 1

@jantjepeter: I never said that Anakin was so much better than AotC Anakin? Also Anakin was rather PO'd at Dooku for killing the Jedi in the arena, he ran headlong and wasn't thinking. Luke isn't Anakin, he won't charge headlong into Dooku like Anakin did.

Now does that mean he'll be able to block the lighting? Maybe, maybe not. But to say that Luke will get the same treatment as AotC Anakin did, when Anakin wasn't thinking straight isn't right.

All I was doing though really, was saying that Luke threw his saber out of symbolism, it had in no way relation to Sidious' Lighting or anything.

@wolfrazer:

Yes i agree on the fact Luke throwing away his saber doesn't necessarily have to do anything with the lightning .

Sorry i forgot to add dccomicsrule2011 to that conversation .

( the Anakin being superior meant to be pointed at him / her i appollogize for the misunderstanding )

And Anakin rushing into Dooku doesn't wanna say anything about the fact he could or couldn't handle lightning ...

This might just be the case with Luke , ( Luke doesn't even have to rush, he doesn't know about lightning so it would be a surprise soon or later as with Anakin )

@jantjepeter: Thing is though, Anakin was running straight at Dooku and had no time to stop and think about what was coming at him, he had no defense set. Luke won't do that here with Dooku, again though does that mean he'll be able to block it? Probably not but who's to say, but there would be a distinct difference.

Plus Vader is here, he could warn Luke of it.

Although I'm not really wanting to get involved here.

Well then i'll still take my chances with Maul and Dooku because i think Luke would be electrocuted from the start, and i don't think Vader could handle Dooku and Maul .

Cause i see no reason why Luke could defend himself from Dooku's lightning while Anakin hwo has same Mid chlorians and has ridiculously more force knowledge and force power failed to defend himself from dooku's lightning .

So Dooku and Maul my decision is .

If it was rots Anakin and rots Luke vs Dooku and Maul then I'd be more favoured to team 1, but Vader who lost almost half of his midi chlorians as well as most of his physical body therefore compromising his lightsaber skill would give a greater advanatge to team 2. Hmm...

@enigmalantern: Wouldn't Vader solo, he's pretty powerful and a lightsaber duelling expert. I don't know enough to give a clearer opinion.

@the_knight_rhoden: There is no way he is soloing this. Dooku alone is enough of a match for Vader.

@jantjepeter: ...pray tell where in my post did I say ROTJ Luke was superior to ROTS Anakin...? I said Luke was superior to AotC Anakin - which he is.

Compare their feats side-by-side and you would see the Luke leads almost every category.

Also, Luke was able to, albeit, breifly, deflect Palpatine's Lightning in both the ROTJ comic and novel. Source books have stated that only the most powerful Jedi can deflect Palpatin's lightning (The Star Wars character Encyclopedia)

I still see no reason why Luke couldn't deflect Dooku's Lightning with his blade. Do I agree Dooku and Maul win? Of course - Luke matches the aw Force power that everyone here is packing, but I don't Lightning will be a game changer ------not even in the slighest.

In hindsight, I'll admit my tone sounds a little coarse. I didn't mean it that way.

Incredibly inconsistent. I can see them possibly being evenly matched in lightsaber combat, maybe, when considering the fact that Luke has far less training than traditional Jedi, but Vader is far more limited in dexterity than his former self. However, Vader's use of The Force is vastly superior. Vader didn't utilize any of the vicious force attacks against Luke that he used against other Jedi during the Jedi Purge.

I'm pretty sure the first part of this quote helps prove that Vader was constantly gauging Luke throughout the whole fight. And the emboldened part just seems to tell me that Vader would do whatever had to be done if it came down to it, but only as a last resort. But he never seemed to resort. And plus he's talking about striking down a surrendering opponent, not defeating a blood-lusted Jedi fighting for his life.

Again, I'm seeing this as "I'm not afraid to do what must be done. Ball's in your court". That hardly means Vader wanted to kill Luke. If anything, it proves how hesitant he was about the mere thought of it.

And I'm not entirely sure if Vader flung the saber at Luke or at a support beam.

Yeah...right up until Vader taunted him about Leia, resulting in him going completely mental. While Vader is probably still trying to convert him. Again, I can't think of any time in which Vader unleashed an amount of rage onto Luke quite like Luke did in this moment. I think it's obvious Vader underestimated Luke and got caught off guard. ROTS Anakin vs Dooku is completely proportional.

But again, these are my interpretations. I seriously doubt I am alone in these interpretations, though. These quotes sometimes never hold up when considering that they often fail to recognize the characters' build-up in other sources.

@dccomicsrule2011:

Ok my bad, but in what world is Luke Superior to Anakin Aotc .

Comics and Novels have to adjust to movie / serie cannon .

And if Anakin Skywalker can't resist Dooku's lightning than how could Luke Skywalker resist Darth Sidious his lightning .

Luke is the Anakin if he wouldn't become a cyborg ( George Lucas ) .

This means with Anakin having hours and hours training from Yoda, having acces to jedi's library , receiving personal training from Obi-Wan since he was 9 , been practising the force since he was 9 .

There is NO way that Luke could of been better than Anakin .

With this said i think we can agree the novel and comics in that case are worthless because they can't be combined with the movie plot ( as it would be unlogically ).

This being said, i repeat, if Anakin can't hold against Dooku's lightning , neather can Luke .

Sorry if that's not how you interpret it, but from the way I see it it factually states that Luke was a match for his father. If his father was indeed superior in the force, I think that would just defeat the point of calling them equals. I see it as they are equals in every relevant area.

And please try to reply to my last two quotes. I admit the second and third can be interpreted differently, but they were just mainly there just to back up my three other quotes, which seem a lot more clearer.

The first I see as definite. Honestly, what's there not to understand? lol It says that Luke is a match for his father straight up. Don't try to dance around it by calling it "incredibly inconsistent". It's not gonna refute a fact from a Star Wars source. I think there's a line to be drawn where you can just "interpret" things. If it is straight up stated from a credible Star Wars source is where I think the line should be drawn on interpreting.

@jantjepeter: The novel is just as canon as the movie if we're using Legends version, and I think the novels were even stated to be aprt of the main canon Universe - so yes, his showing against Sidious is completely valid.

....have you even been reading my post? Luke by ROTJ was superior to Luke. His TP feats stomps Anakin, his strenth feats include him breaking through metal restraints and resisting the force of a ton.He has held up an falling AT-ST, has activated several devices across Cloud City with moderate effort, knows Force Absorption, knows deflection, he has seen TIE Fighters move in a dialated perception, formed curtains out the the blurring motion of his blade, thrown blows in a eye-flick, thrown blows faster than a heart beat, deflected fire from over a dozen shooters, blitz Assassin droids, while seeing said droid it in slow-motion, has ran invisibly fast, has thrown blows faster than the eye could see, has telepathically, projected an astral form of his self, has caused Vader pain via telepathy, has mind-controlled Imperial Officers, has shown Beast Control powerful enough to casually control a Dragonsnake, has scanned the minds of 30-50 beings, has fought off the fatal effects of the Crimson Fever, etc, etc.

Now, show me Anakin feats that supersedes these, until then, I fail to see how AotC Anakin is superior to ROTJ Luke.

But then again, we can't have a ROTJ Luke thread without him being lowballed by users who have only seen the movies, even though they don't even display 1/10 of his most impressive showings. Ignorance truly is bliss.

@spartankobe: But how? Anakin killed Dooku, was he intentionally holding back just so he could die?

@the_knight_rhoden: You are right in saying he killed Dooku. However he still had to push himself via force rage to gain an advantage. Since he has to try his hardest to defeat Dooku, there is no way he will have enough power to also be focusing on Maul too, who is at Dooku's level.

I never said he was better proofed than anyone else, read the whole thing before you comment. I said he was better proofed against dookus lightning after having taken palpatines lightning.

Also luke was a prodigy just like annakin, by rotj he was already using force choke so no dooku inst just going to force choke luke, you are extremely underestimating lukes abilities, is he could be force choked and pushed so easily, then the emperor wouldnt have bothered with force lightning his more powerful attack.

Oh... I stand corrected you're right. Plus Vader isn't in his youthful body anymore, if he was then he could probably solo. Thanks for helping a Star Wars newb find the ropes. :)

Oh no no no. I'm not letting you get away like that. Anakin in his youth would not solo what is essentially two Dooku level people at once if he had to push himself really hard to beat one.

@jantjepeter: Yeah I think you are extremely underestimating ROTJ Luke. He was Vader's match by then.

The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.

Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.

--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #111

No way of dancing around that one imo. To say that Vader is superior to Luke in force power but equal in saber combat or vice versa defeats the whole point of calling them equals.