Kol Skywalker vs TPM Maul

Certainly Maul, but given Kol's hype and feats I'd say he should perform pretty well.

Maul should win easily

Kol can make it a fight but he's not winning any majority.

TPM Maul takes the majority.

There is too little to Kol to really say definitely how good he is.

Maul

Although Kol doesn't have much to go off of, what he does have should be enough to suggest that he can put up a decent effort and give Maul a fight. Though tbh, Maul wins a solid majority.

Maul

@darthskywalker0: Don't know anything about Kol Skywalker tbh

@decaf_wizard said:

I wanna say Kol, TPM Maul is surely skilled, but being that Kol was a Skywalker he takes this in the raw power department. His lightsaber skills are obviously advanced, being capable of defeating wave upon wave of Sith by himself. I believe TCW Maul or SoD Maul could win a majority, but I don't think TPM Maul could. It's by no means a stomp though, Maul will put up a fight for sure.

Going with Maul on this one

@erkan12: I never questioned his capabilities. I was saying that he can put up a fight based of what he does have.

@darthskywalker0: does kol skywalker have any feats other than killing no name sith?

Maul for reasons already stated.

It's ok then, I agree with it.

I'm not seeing how Kol can win any rounds, let alone a majority.

Maul wins pretty easily.

Maul, Kol doesn't have enough backing him to say he could win.

@darthbane77: I'd love to debate you on this topic when I get home in the next hour. Wanna call it a date?

lol @ Maul winning easily.

@i_like_swords: I'm not sure how heavily this topic can be debated honestly, I think there's an argument for both sides for sure, but the evidence for Kol is rather limited. So I don't think a debate would last very long. I could give it a shot though, don't have much better to do so why not? haha.

@darthbane77: tag me for that debate. Be entertaining to read, or at least informational.

@keikrosskira: Will do, I'll try not to forget.

Turns out I didn't have as much time as I'd hoped when I made that post.

Why do you get the impression Kol is going to be able to defeat Maul?

@i_like_swords: His raw power dwarfs that of most, and being a Jedi Master means he's obviously got a good grasp on his knowledge, so I think he has at least a decent edge in the Force. Dueling is a bit harder to gauge because he only has one good feat, but he was able to slaughter wave after wave of sith, only being cut down by Nihl after Kol would already have been pretty winded. Basically, Ithink his lineage, status and obvious combat skill would amount to being able to contend at least with TCW or SoD Maul; and likely defeat TPM Maul. Unfortunately we have little hard evidence.

@darthbane77:

His raw power dwarfs that of most, and being a Jedi Master means he's obviously got a good grasp on his knowledge, so I think he has at least a decent edge in the Force.

Not all Skywalkers are necessarily Force prodigies who dwarf all of those around them (e.g, Leia), and even if Kol has the raw power there is nothing to suggest he has tapped into to a sufficient degree to defeat Maul. Also, his bloodline while powerful has been diluted over the course of over a century since Anakin. So I'm not seeing the edge. Maul has him beat in feats, accolades, holistic intent, etc.

Also, simply being a Jedi Master... doesn't correlate to having a "decent Force edge" over someone like Maul, diluted Skywalker bloodline or not.

Dueling is a bit harder to gauge because he only has one good feat, but he was able to slaughter wave after wave of sith, only being cut down by Nihl after Kol would already have been pretty winded.

Which isn't as impressive when you remember that Jango Fett can take out a group of Jedi with his bare hands and a rock. Maul would absolutely massacre those Sith, and I would suggest him quite literally wiping out the Black Sun single-handedly is more impressive; after soloing the bases of a few Black Sun Vigos (who make up their leadership board), the remaining Vigos along with their main leader consolidated all of their combined forces in their main fortress, fully prepared and expecting an attack from Maul. Their armies, bounty hunters and personal guards were all cut down in short order.

Basically, Ithink his lineage, status and obvious combat skill would amount to being able to contend at least with TCW or SoD Maul; and likely defeat TPM Maul. Unfortunately we have little hard evidence.

Simply being a Skywalker Jedi Master who can kill groups of run of the mill Sith... doesn't begin to compare to what Maul has accomplished.

Remember the four Imperial Knights who a parasite-sickened Darth Krayt speedblitzed? The best the Imperial Knights had to offer who were chosen to protect the Emperor Roan Fel himself (each one equivalent to a Jedi master)? One of them was a Fel, of Skywalker lineage.

Last I recall, A'Sharad Hett lost to Obi-Wan Kenobi quite clearly. So unless Krayt improved massively after that point, I'm going to go ahead and say murking a Skywalker-born Jedi Master isn't out of Maul's paygrade.

I could bombard you with evidence pointing to Maul's power and skill, and that of those he's fought and defeated, but even without that, I still don't see how Kol comes out of this as anything other than a corpse.

@i_like_swords: I dunno, like I said there's very little evidence for Kol. But every Skywalker has been pretty powerful, even Leia became pretty powerful. Also, Darth Krayt was vastly superior to what he was as a Jedi. Beating down multiple waves of Sith, even run of the mill, is rather impressive, no average Jedi could achieve that feat; so he has to be at least somewhat above average. Your point about Jango, while somewhat fair, can be called to question being that the Jedi he killed were all padawans; inexperienced and untested, any Mandaloroan worth his salt could perform that feat. Also, I never said that being a Jedi Master gives him an edge, I was using his status as a Jedi Master to outline Kol's ability to use the Force, Jedi Masters are pretty much the best of the best (aside from the Jedi Council) and Kol was considered the greatest Jedi Master alive at the time, basically the Jedi Master thing was used to state his knowledge of the Force. Also, Maul didn't single-handedly do anything; he used the Death Watch to kill the Black Sun (unless there was something in Son of Dathomir that I missed.)

@darthbane77: "Pretty powerful" and "at least somewhat above average" doesn't cut it against people even lesser than Maul. Proof Krayt at that time was vastly superior to A'Sharad?

Your point about Jango, while somewhat fair, can be called to question being that the Jedi he killed were all padawans; inexperienced and untested, any Mandaloroan worth his salt could perform that feat.

These points being supported by what, exactly? The Jedi were never specified, and if "any Mandalorian worth his salt" could do what Jango did, he wouldn't have been the last of them left at the battle in question.

Also, who's to say the Sith Kol fought were of particular renown or ability?

Also, I never said that being a Jedi Master gives him an edge, I was using his status as a Jedi Master to outline Kol's ability to use the Force, Jedi Masters are pretty much the best of the best (aside from the Jedi Council) and Kol was considered the greatest Jedi Master alive at the time, basically the Jedi Master thing was used to state his knowledge of the Force.

Okay? This is nothing exceptional. Maul was handpicked by Sidious to be trained as his apprentice based on his Force connection, as an infant. He was so powerful before Sidious even took him in that the Nightsisters and Brothers on Dathomir feared him. Sidious made an enemy out of a relative peer, Talzin, whose Dark Side secrets he coveted, because he felt training Maul was worth the sacrifice.

He's quoted as being one of the most lethal, skilled and highly trained Sith in the history of the Sith numerous times, and was trained from infancy by the culmination of the Rule of Two Sith (a thousand years of Sith advancement) to be a potential successor to the lineage.

His feat of surviving being cut in half was regarded as being totally unprecedented by everyone, even Sidious, and just the act of Savage going to look for Maul sent out "sinister" ripples through the Force which affected Anakin, Ahsoka, Dooku, Kenobi, Yoda and likely others. The holistic power argument falls in Maul's corner, every time.

Also, Maul didn't single-handedly do anything; he used the Death Watch to kill the Black Sun (unless there was something in Son of Dathomir that I missed.)

I'm talking about the comic book Star Wars: Darth Maul, which takes place before TPM. As I said, Maul's mission is to destroy the Black Sun, and he does so with just his lightsaber. After killing a few of their main leaders the remaining majority of them converge on their main fortress, consolidate their armies and personal bodyguards, prepare for Maul's arrival, and are still slaughtered.

@i_like_swords: I'm not looking to start an argument (just based on the way I read you reply it seems like you're getting angry), I'm just going based on what I know and feel. I've never seen Maul as anything truly special, does that mean he's weak? Not by any means, Maul is undoubtedly one of the most powerful characters of the PT era, but I really don't think Sidious ever planned on Maul succeeding him; simply because there's no way he could have done so. Jango was the last one left from a battle between Mandalorians, so let me re-phrase, and of the great Mandalorians could pull the same thing off, especially ones like Canderous Ordo. I'll admit to knowing little about Maul, I just know enough to be able to debate him properly most of the time. Kol was believed to be the greatest Jedi of the era, better than even Wolf Sazen, and I see Wolf as potentially capable of his own with TPM for a good period of time; so it stands to reason that Kol can AT LEAST contend with Maul.

Feats for Kol?

I've got to disagree with it.

Of all the uncounted trillions of sentient beings that populated the Galaxy, only one was deserving of respect: Darth Sidious. The man who dared to dream of conquering not just a world or star system, but an entire Galaxy. The man who had taken the young Maul from a backwater planet and raised him to be his successor. He owed Darth Sidious everything.

--- Taken from ; Shadow Hunter

The implications of this possibility made Maul catch his breath. For all Darth Sidious’s talk of his role as his apprentice and eventual successor, Maul still felt precious little connection to the Sith grand plan for the galaxy and his place within it. At the Dark Lord’s command, he’d spent years training on Orsis and then on Coruscant in the LiMerge Building, enduring years of privation and the harshest imaginable discipline while awaiting his Master’s visits.

--- Taken from ; Maul - Lockdown

Well, he (Sidious) shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways.

--- Source : George Lucas / AOTC DVD Commentary

Darth Sidious : And my apprentices ? Darth Maul was a loss, but Darth Tyranus... He was a proton torpedo. He served his purpose and was gone...

--- Taken from ; Darth Vader #020 (2016)

Considering the possibilities, yeah it was possible, sometimes the weaker apprentice can overcome the superior master, simply because of cheap-shots. Did Palpatine beat Plagueis via superior combat skills ? Or did Plagueis beat Tenebrous via superior combat skills ? Or did Wyyrlok III beat Darth Krayt fair and square ? ... I think you can see my point here.

@darthbane77: Grr, so angry.

That's fine and all, you're more than entitled to your opinion and you have no reason to have to justify it to me,- I'm here to debate, not chastise you - I'm just explaining why I think Star Wars disagrees with your viewpoint that Maul isn't anything special and is Wolf Sazen-tier. Also, there's a myriad of quotes hinting to or confirming that Sidious had planned for Maul to be someone capable of furthering the Rule of Two in his stead, which I think Maul amply demonstrates during TCW. Being able to carry on such a tradition points to Maul being extremely "special".

You didn't really address many of my points either, so I'm guessing a debate won't bear as much fruit as I thought it might.

@i_like_swords: Oh no I'm not angry, didn't mean to sound like I was. I don't see anything that puts TPM Maul above Sazen, and Kol by extension.

@darthbane77: So by extension, you believe Sidious would be willing to put his full resources, trust and time into training Wolf Sazen to be his apprentice, aiding him in toppling the Jedi Order and taking over the galaxy?

An interesting proposal.

Maul's subjective opinion on the lies Sidious told him about being a successor don't prove he's actually a successor.

Sidious never saw any of his pawns as anything more than that -- pawns. Some pawns were more useful(i.e. Sedriss and Vader), other pawns were quick means to an end(Dooku) or just weren't exploited to maximum capacity(Maul).

Sidious does privately confirm in BoS that he sought apprentices but never successors.

@wollfmyth209: I didn't say anything about Maul's subjective opinion. I'm referring to creator commentary and other supporting evidence.

It's near enough indisputable that if Sidious was out of the picture, Maul would be able to carry on the RoT proudly, something I'm more than happy to educate you on when I next get to a computer.

Well, if I recall correctly, Plagueis did change his stance on Maul from being a mere assassin and tool to something more in Lockdown (was it?). But Maul's only inherited a fraction of the knowledge that the Banite Sith had access to and is largely unaware of their complex political relations with various other entities, which kind of makes it virtually impossible that he'd be able to take the reins if Sidious somehow died. But in reference to the Rule of Two in its simplest objective (becoming successively more powerful), then that's something Maul could plausibly carry on, but only given very select and beneficial circumstances.

Carry the RoT proudly..... for a very short period of time.

@i_like_swords: I didn't say anything about Maul's subjective opinion. I'm referring to creator commentary and other supporting evidence.

I'm referring to the quotes that Erkan posted. And those are either Maul's subjective head filled with lies from Sidious, or comments that say Sidious shouldn't have lost an apprentice because that was a loss, which would be more because Palpatine didn't exploit Maul as much as he could've.

Sidious' private thoughts are simply that any of his apprentices were pawns, servants, instruments, not worthy successors.

It's near enough indisputable that if Sidious was out of the picture, Maul would be able to carry on the RoT proudly, something I'm more than happy to educate you on when I next get to a computer.

Well, besides Sidious, what other Sith is there at the time? The exact same could be said for: Sedriss, Vader, Dooku, Mara, Lumiya or any number of Palpatine's servants who -- if their superiors fell -- would be top dogs of the Rule of Two. That doesn't automatically translate Maul as being Palpatine's actual successor.

@wollfmyth209 Sidious's opinion of his apprentices and servants are rather inconsistent. The Book of the Sith and a few other Sources depict Sidious as disregarding the importance of the Rule of Two and the idea of having a Successor, which includes Vader. Insider 157 stated that that Sidious is wary of Vader's potential because it's possible that it's still very high and that he's determined to keep Vader as a "tiger that he holds by the tail".

"Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way." - Insider 157.

This is actually very uncharacteristic of Sidious, the Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel depicts Sidious as being infuriated when finding a critically injured Vader who's lost his chance of meeting his full potential, which means he wanted Vader to meet his full potential.

"That’s it. As quickly as he could, Darth Sidious followed the troopers outside, onto the black sand banks of a lava river. A charred heap lay on one side. No; it can’t be! But it was. His promising new apprentice, who was to be the greatest Sith who’d ever lived — maimed and burned, perhaps dead. Darth Sidious ground his teeth in frustrated anger. Part of him wanted to turn on his heel and leave what was left of Darth Vader to burn to ashes in the rising lava. Even if he was alive, even if he could be saved, Vader would be crippled. And not just with his mechanical limbs. The Force — Dark Side as well as Light — was generated by living beings, and it took living flesh to manipulate it. Darth Vader would never be able to cast blue Force lightning; that required living hands, not metal ones. And with so much of his body replaced by machinery, he would never come close to the potential he’d had." - Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel.

@yousufkhan1212: Just because Palpatine wanted his plaything to be more powerful, doesn't mean he actually wants anything other than a plaything.

@wollfmyth209: No... He wanted that "plaything" to be the greatest Sith of all time, the Junior Novel depicts Sidious as being infuriated by Vader's failure of becoming the greatest Sith of all time.

@yousufkhan1212: Yeah, and? Skywalker was essentially the only person who could be a potential successor to Palpatine and he would've become an extremely powerful minion. But as it is, he saw Vader the same way he saw any other apprentice: as a pawn.