Goku Black and Android 17 vs Broly and Frieza

Rules:

• In-Character
• Standard Gear
• Random Encounter
• No Planet Busting
• Broly cannot go SSJ or above
• Win by KO or Death
• Who Wins and Why?

Location:

Callouts:

If the fight gets dragged out Black's evolution and 17's infinite stamina gives them the win.

If Broly and Frieza decide to go all out and end it early they can probably win.

Team two handily

Toss up.

Team 2 most likely. Broly's evolution seems much higher than Black's and Frieza is smart enough to go full power on 17 before he drags out with his infinite stamina.

Don't forget that Broly has his own evolution aswell.

Team 2 wins, they're far more powerful given all of the power ups that occurred between the black arc and the Broly movie.

Team 2 comfortably.

Team 2

@shuragam: Broly seemed to be hitting his limit while fighting SSB Goku. Frieza asked if Broly hit is limit, Paragus said yes, so Frieza killed him to send Broly to the next level. With ssj restricted there isn't enough evidence he can become much stronger during the fight. If he can, it would be a clear victory for team 2.

Broly Solo

Paragus is hardly a reliable source. He said that before and was proven wrong so I don’t see why him saying it later should be taken seriously.

During the DBS Broly Movie, Broly went from being weaker than base Goku/Vegeta to being a match for Gogeta. Sure, he transformed during all of this, but his evolution was still beyond any of which was shown by Goku Black. Also, even if Broly is capped the level he were right before going SSJ, he still is vastly stronger than both 17 and Goku Black, as he was facing a post-ToP SSBlue Goku on equal footing.

The only advantage I see for team 1 is stalling with Goku Black's clones and 17 unlimited stamina, but in my opinion the power gap between the teams is too big for it to be effective.

Team 2

@thewatcherking:

Paragus is hardly a reliable source. He said that before and was proven wrong so I don’t see why him saying it later should be taken seriously.

His statement was never contradicted though. Broly started to lose, and then Frieza got him to transform.

@shuragam:

During the DBS Broly Movie, Broly went from being weaker than base Goku/Vegeta to being a match for Gogeta. Sure, he transformed during all of this, but his evolution was still beyond any of which was shown by Goku Black.

As you stated, most of those power gaps were from transformations. The reason he was evolving so fast was because he never seriously fought before, so he was quickly adapting, but at a certain point it will slow down. There is no evidence he can just keep getting stronger like that. Maybe he can, but as of now we can't say he can for sure.

Also, even if Broly is capped the level he were right before going SSJ, he still is vastly stronger than both 17 and Goku Black, as he was facing a post-ToP SSBlue Goku on equal footing.

I agree, that's why I said him and Frieza should win unless the fight drags out.

The only advantage I see for team 1 is stalling with Goku Black's clones and 17 unlimited stamina, but in my opinion the power gap between the teams is too big for it to be effective.

I can definitely see that being the case.

@alextheboss: He was never given the chance to be proven wrong, not to mention Broly was fighting evenly with Goku, not losing. As soon as Paragus gave his opinion Freiza went on to kill him and tell Broly.

Team 2. Btw Broly is always bloodlusted

@thewatcherking:

He was never given the chance to be proven wrong,

I know, but we have to go with what's shown until proven other wise. Maybe Broly could have got stronger, but it's all just guessing. And if he can get stronger, by how much and how quickly? Again we don't know.

not to mention Broly was fighting evenly with Goku, not losing.

Goku was the one who knocked Broly into the Earth and then the one who kicked him out again, then he tanked Broly's strongest ki attack with no damage, then he seemed to take the advantage and Frieza decided to kill Paragus, and for a few more seconds after that Goku and Broly threw some strikes at each other. They are definitely in the same tier, but Goku did seem to have the edge out of the two of them, and it was implied by statements as well. And even if they are the same in power Goku is a better fight with more techniques. Oozaru power Broly <= SSB Goku.

And yet he didn't bother with killing Freeza.

Broly solos hard

Edit. Nwm, he's base restricted. Team 1 pulls it off with versality and hax.

@gaoron: Broly is in Wrath form here, the form above base

@oreoghoul: Ye, I still see Team 1 winning.

Team 2. Both black and 17 lack the damage output to even put Frieza down.

@shuragam: When was Broly ever a match for Gogeta? He was losing solidly throughout their entire fight and failed to tag him.

Broly solos.

During the moment they were both regular SSJ's. Gogeta only overwhelmed Broly when he went Blue.

Team 2 mops them up.

Bump

Team 1 extremely easily. 17 holds off Frieza long enough for Black to decimate Broly. Even SSJ Broly would lose handily to Goku Black, lmfao.

Now if this is the manga, then it's a stomp in the reverse direction. Black and 17 would be simply outclassed by their competition.

Bump

Assuming its anime versions cause I’m behind on the manga

Broly cant go SSJ even with him contending with post-ToP Goku and Vegeta thats a huge disadvantage for team 2.

Black can be ruthless too he ran Vegeta through with his energy sword in their first battle in the future. I’m not saying it’ll be easy but 17 also knows enough about Frieza to not be careless I think team 1 takes it

Team 2 stomps. Golden Frieza from Tournament or thereafter is far above S17 and Goku Black.

Bump

Base Broly gets trashed by Goku Black, who held his own against Vegeta SSj Blue, who wasted Broly in his ordinary SSj God form.

Bump

Team 2.

Broly’s evolution simply outclasses Black’s, and I don’t believe Black would instantly go for the kill, which means Broly would eventually surpass and kill him.

Freiza is smart enough to go full force against 17 straight off and likely takes it but it will be close

Bump

Broly and Frieza

T2

Team 2 mid diffs

Broly going from losing to base vegeta to beating up red goku in like 10 minutes is wayyy better than Black's evolution. I see black trying to fight the Saiyan and 17 and frieza fighting each other. As long as black doesn't go right for the kill (which I don't expect) and frieza keeps 17 distracted for long enough, Broly will become too strong for both.

@noobsnowman: Even though SSJ Broly was matching SSJ Gogeta? Not disagreeing just curious

Golden Freeza > SSJB Goku And Vegeta > Wrathful Broly > SSJB Goku or Vegeta >>>>>> Black And 17

Team 2 stomps, either could solo

@oreoghoul: lt's difficult to evaluate SSJ Gogeta's strength if matching Broly is his only feat, and he has no other way to powerscale of. Therefore claiming that matching a character with unexplored feats or scaling shouldn't be the way to go as an argument.

Black in comparison decimated 2 SSBs in a much more convincing fashion than Broly, and there is hardly any compelling evidence to show that Goku/Vegeta improved their Blue forms drastically in the anime from the Black Arc to the Broly movie. In fact, Vegeta pointed out that they are reaching their physical limits, which is evidence that little improvement could be made through training their existing forms, only through breaking their limits and reaching new forms.

@noobsnowman: Yeah good point, I agree with you there. I personally think SSJ Broly is overrated (not to get confused with LSSJ). He couldn’t tag normal SSB Goku or Vegeta when they fled and he couldn’t even put down Golden Frieza in an HOUR.

I know a lot of people say that Goku and Vegeta didn’t go SSBKKx20 and SSBE respectively because they knew they couldn’t win but I think it’s because they knew they couldn’t finish him off before he adapted in power and grew; not because SSJ Broly was above their SSBKKx20 and SSBE forms. I think a lot of fighters with access to kill-moves could defeat SSJ Broly if they’re quick enough (Hit, Goku Black, 17 [I know you’ll disagree with that one xD], GoD Toppo, etc.).

That’s one thing I’ve always been mixed on: whether or not Goku and Vegeta’s SSB grew stronger since the Black Arc. Logically it makes sense if they did, the ToP would have provided more than enough fighting for them (even giving them new forms). But I don’t think there is any statements given that directly state their strength has increased.

The only ~compelling~ evidence I’ve seen is that Goku using just SSB was able to fight Jiren without SSBKKx20 (some may say even better since he almost knocked him off but that’s probably more in favor of Goku’s intelligence rather than power).

@oreoghoul:

I know a lot of people say that Goku and Vegeta didn’t go SSBKKx20 and SSBE respectively because they knew they couldn’t win but I think it’s because they knew they couldn’t finish him off before he adapted in power and grew; not because SSJ Broly was above their SSBKKx20 and SSBE forms. I think a lot of fighters with access to kill-moves could defeat SSJ Broly if they’re quick enough (Hit, Goku Black, 17 [I know you’ll disagree with that one xD], GoD Toppo, etc.).

I find that claim to be very inconsistent because in literally every other fight Goku and Vegeta were involved in, they would slowly unleash all their forms before conceding inferiority should they lose in their highest form. For example, Goku using all Kaioken levels against Frieza, revealing all forms against Jiren, Vegeta revealing all forms against Moro, etc. Even before Goku/Vegeta fused to Vegito, Goku used Kaioken, the form that he held back from using during almost the entirety of the Black Arc since it would cause immense stress to his body due to his lack of mastery of it.

I personally don't know what to take on this, but due to the massive inconsistencies from other showings, I would probably claim PIS on this one. Especially when during their clash Goku and Vegeta were very far from outmatched yet.

The only ~compelling~ evidence I’ve seen is that Goku using just SSB was able to fight Jiren without SSBKKx20 (some may say even better since he almost knocked him off but that’s probably more in favor of Goku’s intelligence rather than power).

In any fight when SSB Goku was able to clash against Jiren, Jiren was holding back as per Vegeta's statement and Jiren's passive concession in episode 123. When Jiren was serious, like in his first fight and after Toppo's elimination, Goku was chanceless even with Kaio Ken. And you're correct about Goku almost eliminating Jiren not due to power, but due to a tactical manoeuvre that he learned from Krillin during their sparring session.

Probably Team 1.

@noobsnowman: good points, good points. Could you remind me of Jiren’s concession in episode 123? I can’t recall that, do you remember what he specifically said?