@ursaber: WOW 9 Spider People in Marvel Prime Earth Universe.........that's so dumb.

@ursaber: when does jean grey #1 solo come out? next week?

@ursaber: I'm hyped for Jean Grey #1.

Next week.

Good for you. Hope you enjoy it.

Me however, I hope this book gets the Venom treatment wherein the original takes over the book by issue 5 or 6. Preview was not bad but at the same time, a little discomfort here and there.

Its sales projection, don't know how well its gonna sell since its not a team X-Men book but number 1's do sell well just before the massive drop when issue 2 releases.

@rubear: On the subject of Phoenix Scott vs God Doom, are you making the point that the Phoenix is not all-powerful and people overrate its power?

If so, you do realize that Scott is neither a high-end telepath naturally without the Phoenix, nor skilled in using it, don't you? Scott had impressive feats in AvX, but still did not compare to his daughter or his deceased wife. A Phoenix user with a sliver of its power was able to effortlessly hurl planets, turn them into stars, and use the towers the Phoenix instituted across the multiverse as communication stations. How exactly does Scott compare, or God Doom?

Sorry @pyrofn but against God Doom even the full might of the Phoenix is absolutely nothing. Doom is powered by the Beyonders, the beings who destroyed the Multiverse, killed the Celestials, Eternity and even the Living Tribunal who is the second most powerful being under the One Above All, above even the Phoenix Force, dwarfing it actually. In fact, Doom killed the Beyonders and took the power that destroyed all of existence for his own. He effortlessly killed a Phoenix powered Cyclops (last Phoenix at the time) and Thanos (who was immortal due to being banished from death). He created Battleworld, the Sun from Human Torch, etc.

Jean Grey White Phoenix would never win in a direct contest of strength against God Doom no matter how many feats of the Phoenix you can drum up, God Doom had true omnipotence.

@ursaber:

Magneto and Doom are Marvel's greatest villains.

Yep, alongside Loki.

If Fox could've pulled off F4, we could have had the Fantastic Four teaming up with X-Men to defeat Doom and Magneto. Ultimate wish fulfillment.

Well, some wishes will stay wishes (DAMN YOU FOX !!!!).

Iron Doom's armor and cape are perfect for me.

Well i also like it, but i would have preffered if it had a bit of his old armor in it as well.

He's the only Marvel character I want to be right now. It also helps that Tony's latest Model Prime armor was also my favorite armor aside from the Bleeding Edge so the transition to Iron Doom Armor was absolutely great.

Same.

Not a fan of Riri either. Too perfect and therefore unlikable.

True.

I read Unworthy Thor because of Thor. Didn't really know that it was hyped up to be a Thor vs Thanos.

Yep, they hyped us and they dissappointed us with it and with ending as well.

In any case Thor along with Beta Ray Bill, Nick Fury as Unseen, the Collector, Thor's goat and the whisper revelation made for one of the best stories of Marvel so far.

That was not really a good revelation, Gorr was right is and will be bullsh**, that was pulled out of nowhere. And not only that Thor acst as weak willed man who can do nothing and is entirely dependant on his hammer, that's just another butchering of Thor.

I am also not looking forward to his new War Thor either BTW.

Marvel needs to get rid of him and Jane-Thor.

There are TWO Thors, TWO Spider Men, TWO Wolverines, TWO Novas, TWO Angels, TWO Icemen, TWO Beasts, TWO Captain Americas, TWO Iron Mans, etc. There are too many of the same its infuriating.

I like 2 Novas actually(they are just like GLs), other than that, kill them all.

They should bring back Jean, Scott, Xavier, and Logan. Then send the O5 to another reality that lost its O5,from there they can play out the changes and effects it has on the timeline, using it as a secondary comic line, like Ultimate Universe.

They could start from 60s and 70s, mirroring the 616 universe, but showing how time travel has affected it. Like the O5 shattered time and sent ripples that has altered things.

+Like your proposition. Send them to the 05verse

Original Jean, Scott, Logan and Xavier can come back via Jean Grey White Phoenix who resurrects them from within the White Hot Room (it also serves as an afterlife).

@ursaber: The Phoenix was the one responsible for recreating the multiverse when the M'Ktaan Crystal was breached on Earth-0, the Earth Galactus was from. Even if the Beyonders were powerful enough to take everything out, the Phoenix would still survive like it did before. Phoenix is above the Celestials, Eternity and it is still debated on these forums as to whether the Living Tribunal is superior to the Phoenix or not. As many have demonstrated, including the Beyonders, sooner or later, the cosmic entities were said to have been frightened by Jean and Phoenixes merging due to it being the very thing that meant the replacement by those whom were once beneath them in the cosmic hierarchy, with other examples such as Doom, Thanos, and the Beyonders as further evidence. And unlike the Living Tribunal, life in the universe could not function without the Phoenix and we have no evidence of the Beyonders successfully doing this.

As for God Doom, he never beat the full might of the Phoenix. He beat Phoenix Cyclops, who has barely had any experience with it at all. You can't say that Cyclops confrontation with Doom was the answer as to how powerful Doom was in comparison to the Phoenix because the wielder was not someone who knew how to use it properly. Unlike Cyclops, a person with a small sliver of the Phoenix was capable of communication to multiple realities throughout the multiverse, effortlessly hurl planets, and detonate them into mini stars. Jean Grey with small bit of Phoenix that wasn't enough to fly out into space was capable of destroying the hand of a Celestial. When has Cyclops ever done anything remotely impressive with this kind of power. He pales in comparison to previous weilders, and Doom had not done anything in that story to demonstrate that he had that much power. At best he was capable of defeating the Infinity Gauntlet. As Molecule Man and Dr.Strange have stated, Doom had his limits. Dooms power and world were kept in place by the Molecule Man and Dr.Strange has stated that Doom wasn't omniscient, a giant flaw to begin with in comparison to White Phoenix who had that.

The Phoenix's universal destruction power emerges only at the end of time when the universe is naturally going to die. What the Beyonders did was destroy, not the main Earth 616 Universe but the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE, absolutely everything. They achieved this through mere experimentation to end the Multiverse before its time. This is a race of beings with basically omnipotent power from where the Cosmic Cubes come from. The Beyonders are not part of the cosmic hierarchy, they challenge said hierarchy, they break free off its limitations. Three Beyonders were enough to kill the Living Tribunal, imagine what the entire race can do together and that is the entirety of power Doom achieved. The full power of the Beyonders race.

Phoenix is not above Eternity. Eternity is the very universe Phoenix inhabits. Phoenix stands on the ranks of Galactus and the Celestials (Phoenix may well be stronger than both of them) however the Celestials are an entire race of cosmic entities and the combination of just three of them is enough to destroy Galactus. Against the entire Celestial race combined even the Phoenix is down for the count.

The Living Tribunal is singular across the multiverse, second in power to the One Above All. It is by definition stronger than the Phoenix. The Phoenix is a threat to all cosmic entities and they would be fools no to admit its full power but the Phoenix is not stronger than all of them or even some of them.

Doom made little to no effort in defeating the last Phoenix Cyclops. As evidenced many times before, even half assed Phoenix Hosts have incredible power and Doom wasted practically no strength in terminating Cyclops just as he would've destroyed effortlessly Rachel, Quentin Quire or Hope Summers if they had the Phoenix. He killed the unkillable Thanos as well, Phoenix hasn't done that.

The Infinity Gauntlet is a power greater than the Phoenix Force. Its greater than the entire cosmic hierarchy able to challenge all cosmic entities combined. Doom overcame its power. Where was the Phoenix when the Beyonders destroyed all realities. Where was the Phoenix in Doom's Battleworld. Phoenix is the Guardian of Creation, yet said guardian never showed up to protect the entire Multiverse from destruction.

Omniscient is nothing in comparison to the power of Omnipotence. Who needs omniscience when you have Omnipotence. You have all the power. You can give yourself omniscience. Phoenix has no Omnipotence.

In fact, Phoenix has always been bested by forces it should automatically have annihilated but hasn't. Magneto defeated a Phoenix powered Jean Grey with a pathetic cosmic stroke. The Phoenix is easily manipulated as well and the Phoenix has always been defeated by the forces of Earth. For all the powers of the Phoenix, it has never been able to destroy the universe, something the power of the Beyonders did and that same power is Doom's to control.

@ursaber: It isn't a universal destructive capability, its a multiversal destructive capability. Evidence shown by the fact that we see on multiple occasions the Phoenixes multiversal feats, evidence of the M'Kraan Crystal being the nexus of realities, and White Phoenix of the Crown.

The Phoenix inhabits Eternity only in its energy state, not its psionic state, not to mention White Phoenix held the universe in her hands. There was also the many claims that the Phoenix could destroy all that is and a what-if that backs that claim up.

If I remember correctly, someone on these forums claimed there being one Phoenix (in its natural state), with other Phoenixes inhabiting each universe in connection to that single Phoenix. I can't remember who claimed it though. And yes, the Phoenix is stronger than the cosmic entities. Though out of sheer curiosity, I'd like to hear who it is you claim is stronger than the Phoenix.

Yes, Doom destroyed Scott, one without experience in using the Phoenix. How does that make a case against stronger hosts. Its like comparing a newbie to someone with years of experience. There is more evidence a feats for the latter over the former. We can't say that Scott could do all that other hosts at their power level if he has never demonstrated as much, especially when Anti-Phoenix demonstrated that the use of the Phoenix can differ in power level when he was owning Rachel with an entire Phoenix using o ly a sliver of a piece that he had.

There is no evidence to say the Gailet is more powerful? Why? Because the Gauntlets capabilities were stated to be barred within its own universe and the few multiversal feats it has are sketchy.

How on earth should I know where the Phoenix was other than that egg Scott had in his universe? You can't use the Phoenix apparent absence as evidence that it has no power over others. Any answer I give you is speculation. So what? The Phoenix is always absent when these events go down and when it is present it is usually capable of breaking whatever bindings are put against it. Example: Inferno, Rachel breaks free of Madelyne control when Nathan's cries are heard by her, Phoenix comes to Earth to break Scarlet Witches spell, Onslaught Saga, Doom tries to kill Magneto through time travel and gets owned by Green Phoenix, causing him to run from Dark Phoenix.

As for the guardian of Creation, you should know by now that the Phoenixes title is not something in literal terms in its totality. Its job is to keep up the life cycle, judge to make sure the obsolete is burned away. So long as the Phoenix exists, life goes non. If is wiped out,the Phoenix restarts it. Here's my question: Why didn't the Beyonders take out the Phoenix? It was quite obvious it wasn't destroyed because in the process of them destroying the multiverse, life still existed. When you destroy the Phoenix, you end life in the universe as Galactus accidentally demonstrated when he tried to forcefully separate the Phoenix unnaturally from is host, thereby killing it because Rachel allowed it. If I had to make a serious claim as to what was going on, I'd say out of pure SPECULATION, that the Phoenix was under someone's protection. Why? I'm not sure, maybe there were too many risks and it was not strong enough in its current state. Maybe White Phoenix wasn't ready and was more focused on salvaging what was left before taking on the Beyonders. If you don't want speculative guesses, than please don't give speculative questions because these don't show an inaquedacy on the Phoenix part, only that it is always suspiciously absent in events su h as the Infinity Gauntlet, Onslaught Saga, etc. Based on the fact that the Phoenix has shown greater feats than the likes of at least Onslaught, it is unreasonable to think that the Phoenixes absence was d to incompetency, especially when it has managed to save the universe more than they have tried to conquer it in succession.

Omniscience is a part of omnipotence. You aren't truly omnipotent until you have the knowledge to properly use it and on the opponents and subjects that you could effect with them. Phoenix isn't omnipotent as far as we know. While Phoenix is still up in the air. That amount of freedom and evidence of its multiversal power at its disposal already in its universal form gives me reason to believe that there is a big chance it is really up there in power. And the so-called heirarchy that everyone refers to is always getting broken by someone seen as mere dust. There is no reason to say everything is set in stone, especially for one who keeps evolving past the limits thought possible to the point of frightening the entities as Death noted.

One, that was an amped Corn, not Magneto. The circumstances surrounding the incident show that Phoenix allowed Jean to die. Two, a Green Phoenix was killed. Hardly the Phoenix at her greatest. The only instance the Phoenix has ever been manipulated properly was by Mastermind, Madelyne Pryor, Beyonder, and Jean Grey. Masterminds manipulation was not only sneaky and amped, it was using emotions already present in Phoenix, in which she broke free from when he made the mistake of killing Scott. Madelynes and Beyonders incidents were against an inexperienced Rachel Summers. Rachel broke free from Madelyne control and was able to figure out Beyonders plan once she got help from her friends. Jean Grey is the most powerful and skilled user of the Phoenix, why would anyone think she couldnt manipulate powers that she has used and claimed for her own? For all the powers of the Phoenix, it has destroyed universes. White Phoenix destroyed two and an alternate version shows what would have happened if Dark Phoenix was still around during the Saga. Not only has the Phoenix destroyed universes, it has repaired the damage done to the universe and the M'Kraan Crystal, even though it was done with help, but I cal that a win for her considering she was at her most inexperienced and yet, was resourceful enough to stopping the end of all that was. Had the Beyonders had succeeded, they would have seen the Phoenix still present and for all their powers, they can't destroy the entity who can't die. As I've said, the Phoenix has survived the end of the multiverse before. (Or a universe as large as a multiverse since Ultimates confirms my suspicions that the Multiverse used to be a singular universe that broke apart when it was destroyed. Thereby proof that the Phoenix was singular at one point. Interestingly, it also shows that there was a Jean Grey before our Jean Grey.)

@pyrofn:

Its bedtime over in my part of the world so after this statement I'll answer you tomorrow.

I underestimated Phoenix's powers but you have thoroughly underestimated Doom himself and the power of the Beyonders.

One being I can certainly say is stronger than all cosmic entities including the Phoenix is the Beyonder (individual, not the race).

@pyrofn:

As I see it, based on the info you provided and the research I did into the Phoenix Force, both the Phoenix and the Beyonder's power match each other blow for blow. Both are capable of multiversal destruction and creation, reality warping and have the power to kill cosmic entities. Both have the power of absolute immortality and indestructibility. Both have unlimited energy, Phoenix's power is all psionic energy there was, is or will be and the Beyonder's home dimension also gives them unlimited energy as they are the source of cosmic cubes and each one of them is also capable of unlimited energy. Both of them exist outside the Multiverse and can exist regardless. The Beyonders are a race, a RACE, thousands, millions or even billions and all of them capable of nigh omnipotent power and only a handful of them can easily, EASILY kill cosmic entities. Take every single Beyonder put together like when Doom took all their powers and you have virtual omnipotence which in turn matches/rivals/possibly surpasses the One True Phoenix/White Phoenix who is also the concentration of the entire Phoenix Consciousness and all White Phoenix hosts across the multiverse. Both of them have unlimited power and virtual omnipotence.

However I would like to mention something, the Infinity Gauntlet has absolute power in its native dimension. Phoenix's power has universal and multiversal power but in Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos killed Jean Grey/Phoenix (along with half of every living being in existence) with but a snap of his fingers as evidenced when the Avengers compiled a list of all heroes who had gone missing and among them was Jean Grey in her Green Phoenix outfit. This in turn confirms that the Phoenix is not without equal or superior within a universe. Ergo, when Secret Wars came and the Multiverse was destroyed, all cosmic laws were destroyed with them and Doom created his own universe, one where a Phoenix Host, even Jean was beneath him for he was the master of the universe he created. For all Phoenix's powers it is capable of being defeated but not permanently destroyed. When Phoenix is defeated it returns to the White Hot Room and turns into a Phoenix Egg so that it might hatch again. This is also true for the Beyonders because they were killed and their power stolen by Doom. Phoenix's weakness is a universal author, the true master of any universe is more powerful than every inhabitant or every invader that comes into its folds. Phoenix is at its strongest in the White Hot Room, Mephisto and Dormammu are at their strongest in their native dimensions, Beyonder in his dimension was the universe, God Doom was the absolute master of Battleworld and there was no other power that could rival him within his own universe for in his own universe he wrote the laws.

Right now, I've summarized and explained that the full power of the Phoenix equals/matches/rivals the power of the Beyonders, both of whom are Omnilocks (exist outside the multiverse and have ultimate freedom and power). Both can alter universes, destroy them and create then and both are capable of destroying the Multiverse. And there is evidence of this. Earth 0, Galactus' universe was destroyed by the Phoenix at the end as is the Phoenix's purpose. Phoenix destroyed the previous multiverse and probably the previous multiverses as well but Phoenix didn't destroy the current multiverse prior to Secret Wars as it was destroyed by the Beyonders themselves.

Alas, both Phoenix (Universal and Multiversal) and the Beyonders (universal and multiversal) have virtual omnipotence. Their powers neutralize each other's. So the answer in whether God Doom or White Phoenix Jean is the strongest, is not in the Phoenix or Beyonders' power but in Victor von Doom and Jean Grey themselves as wielders of virtual omnipotence.

Who is smarter, stronger, more powerful, more capable between Jean Grey and Doctor Doom. I'll let you handle Jean Grey.

Doctor Doom is the smartest and greatest villain in the marvel universe and interchangeable with Reed Richards over who is the smartest man in existence. Through his own power and intelligence he has stolen the Power Cosmic, the power of the pre retcon Beyonder, the power of the Beyonders race, has wrested Thor's hammer Mjolnir, is a master of time travel, has survived the Infinity Gauntlet, is a master of magic and science and is the top contender for Sorcerer Supreme, has powerful psionic resistance, has indomitable willpower and vast knowledge (has resisted Purple Man and Emma Frost with willpower alone, no telepathic resistance) and experience and can literally crap out any invention capable of pretty much any desired effect.

You take Doom, the most experienced accomplished almost unbeatable in terms of feats, a mortal man who can take cosmic powers from higher beings on his intelligence alone and give him the virtual omnipotence of the Beyonders and there is absolutely nothing Doom cannot conceive and cannot do.

As I said, both Phoenix and Beyonder's powers are basically virtual omnipotence, neither could truly destroy the other, only best them depending on the power of their hosts. Given this, I conclude on my part that God Doom would defeat White Phoenix Jean. The deciding factor is on whether Doom or Jean are better than the other and I vote for Doom.

@ursaber: Interesting thoughts. Unlike most I've read, you have brought well thought out explanations. That said, I have a rebuttal and will present it as briefly as I could.

Most would write Jean off as below the Beyonder, something I would have disputed with them had those conversations not have been years before. The Beyondera limit was unfortunately that of being incapable of undoing the damage he caused on the multiverse, even though he was pre-retcon. He needed the aid of Molecule Man to undo the damage, whom had limits of his own, that if being unable to undo the laws of universe, such as changing concepts like life and death. Unlike them, Phoenix was fully capable of restarting life when the universe first began, undoing the Scarlet Witches spell, and heal the universe while destroying timelines.

As for the Infinity Gauntlet feat, Jean was in her X-Factor uniform back then, meaning she wasn't Phoenix. Where th Force was at the time, I have no idea. Even f she was, it would most likely be Green or Dark Phoenix. Both have a hinderance, Geen is self-imposed psychic circuit breakers to control her power and Dark is inhibited by Jeans humanity. Because the Phoenix Forces power is as limited as the experience and imagination of the host, Jean would have had to let go of her inhibitions and accept the Phoenix for what it is, ergo the existence of White Phoenix. We see that process in effect in Morrisons run, where she did not hold back her power and she was keeping communication with the Phoenix, even while not being its host until Wolvie killed her.

Quick note: It was the M'Kraan Crystal that destroyed everything by virtue of the Stranger if I'm not correct. (Or was it the Inbetweener? I forget. The points is someone enacted the breaching of the Crystal like D'Kenn did in the Phoenix Saga) The Phoenix was responsible for resetting life once the Crystal edited. How it did is a mystery. There are two theories I can think of. One is it was fixed by TOAA, which is logical because is omnipotent in its full sense. The second is less likely but not to improbable and that is the Phoenix fixed it. The problem with this is she said that the damage has already been done, so it can't be the same Crystal that broke if she did recreate it. It could be a new one, but it's all speculation. Continue later.

@pyrofn:

As I said, the full power of the Beyonders (the race, the Beyonder individual and the Cosmic Cubes) matches that of the White Phoenix and the Phoenix Consciousness. Ergo both are sources of unlimited power and virtual omnipotence. Since both the Beyonders and the Phoenix have nigh omnipotent power they are at a stalemate.

The deciding factor will be the commander of those two powers, Jean or Doom. Who is the more experienced (in general), who is the better tactician and strategist, the smartest, the one with more willpower, etc.

Given that Jean has been dead for years after Dark Phoenix (or rather inactive) and then in Endsong, Jean Grey's feats, not hers with the Phoenix, are lacking in comparison to Doom who has remained consistently active since his debut in 1961 hatching his schemes for world domination and is credited with fighting nearly every hero and cosmic entity in the MU, both defeating and killing them at one point or another. His ambition knows no bounds, his determination is endless and he will never stop at nothing to achieve ultimate power and superiority. He has returned from death and Hell through his own intelligence and power, has outsmarted devils and gods and is literally the most accomplished, most experienced villain in the MU. Even when the odds are thoroughly against him he has won such as when he defeated Magneto even though his entire armor was metallic and was able to counter him with his magic and intelligence.

Most of Doom's feats come from his own power and intellect whereas Jean's most formidable feats come from her being the Phoenix and not herself without the Phoenix. At least not as much as Doom. Her long absences after Dark Phoenix Saga and then in Endsong also contribute to her inferior portfolio of feats and accomplishments in comparison to Doom.

With virtual omnipotence against Jean with virtual omnipotence, Doom prevails.

@hopesummersforthefuture: @stormphoenix: @del_torro: @pyrofn:

Huh, the Jean Grey solo book wasn't half bad. I still don't like Teen Jeen but the self aware and cleverly written comic did help me not outright hate her. I also did like a lot that she knows she's not the Original Jean and does not intend to become her or supplant/replace her in the MU.

It still bothers me that Phoenix does not give us any hint of Original Jean inside the big flaming raptor. Jean and Phoenix are supposed to be one but the Phoenix has been completely out of control these past few years after Endsong. I have a feeling that despite being connected and as one, that Jean and Phoenix may once again be separate beings again despite retaining their unbreakable connection to each other.

If so then good for I long for Original Jean Grey stories that don't revolve around the Phoenix or feature the flaming raptor.

@ursaber: It was ok for her solo, but I don't think this will survive because if that the ONLY thing we can talk about with the Phoenix than this book is going to get boring FAST.

@stormphoenix: Agreed. Jean's (any Jean really) singular theme revolving around the Phoenix has become a tired trope.

Break new ground Marvel!

yeah it was kinda dull but im hoping the next one(in 3 weeks) is better :)

jean grey #1 was sold out at my comicbook store, so i saw it online today......it was sold out in one hour after the store opened LOL

im going to get there next time, before it opens, so i can get it.......i also want the graphic novel if the other books are good but i hate waiting for the graphic novel, it takes like months @koays

@hopesummersforthefuture:

Graphic novel, you mean the X-Men Origins Jean Grey (which is awesome) or the X-Men First Class?

no i want the jean grey solo 1-5 grahic novel but i do have the jean grey origins

Oh, the trade paperback of the first five issues. Okay. I get it.

@ursaber: On paper yes, but the flaw with that comes from the massive jobbing that came when they started losing against mere mortals. Yes, Jean has had her fair share of losses, but there were explained circumstances outside of what the Beyonders limits. Jeans losses were consistent of her lack of confidence in herself or the Phoenixes testing her, whereas the Beyonders just straight lost to beings that should be of insignificance even individually.

If we are going by the avatars, then let's check the info. Smarts go to doom, willpower should be Jean for her general dealings with a cosmic force. Tactics and strategy go to Doom, but overall power naturally goes to Jean. Still there is one factor you have forgotten that I have mentioned before as well as lordofallhumans. And that is that Doom has triumphed over both Rachel and Scott before as Phoenixes, but not Green Phoenix 'Jean', whom Doom met up with and lost during the Onslaught Saga. In fact the experience prompted him to flee when he came across the moment Jean was Dark Phoenix. That means Phoenix actually had a win on Doom in the form of Jean Grey, even if it was only a copy, it was in every other way Jean. She was in fact, at a lower point if I remember correctly how her face off with Magneto went before the Dark Phoenix Saga, due to the experience of the M'Kraan Crystal draining her.

Jean has also had the benefit if experiencing life and death from the Phoenix as well, and what's more, she ends up learning from Death that they have no hold over her. Her conquering the Phoenix is a big seal. That fact that her humanity had so much impact on an entity that doesn't feel under normal circumstaes, to the point that it feels remorse, the fact that one moment in time when she stopped her friend from dying gave Phoenix a reason to notice, shows that Doom is not underestimated by any means in this conversation it is Jean who is underestimated.

Also, the feats of Jean feats coming from Phoenix? You're kidding me right? Stopping the life cycle briefly in her childhood the first moment her powers awakened was Phoenix? Her traveling in space to Binary and stop her was Phoenix? Her willpower of keeping the Phoenix at bay was the Phoenix? Her curbstomping Phoenix Emma in Endsong was due to the Phoenix? We area speaking about Phoenix vs God Doom, so I will most

Y refer to Phoenix. If you want Jean feats, I'd be more than happy to oblige as the rhetorical questions above show.

Doom has faced Jean and lost once. He ran from a second fight and defeated lower hosts. Doom is great, but he seems to have a lacking to Jean for whatever reason as the fact that he lost with his time-machine. True the attack was unexpected, but his helper warned him that Green Phoenix noticed them before she attacked. He still lost. The same could happen to God Doom if he doesn't run away like he did with Dark Phoenix.

@pyrofn:

Both Beyonders and Phoenix have virtual omnipotence based on everything known about them and their combined power together. That's my prerogative. Whether Jean is confident or not, the Phoenix's power is without question. You're nitpicking on a matter which I've already resolved. Both have virtual omnipotence ergo they stalemate each other as power sources. Jean and Doom will have full mastery of their respective powers and the only thing left to determine is who is better on their own ground, Doom or Jean.

Doom has massive willpower and he deals with all manner of cosmic beings not just one like Phoenix. Silver Surfer, Galactus, Mephisto, Thanos, Dormammu, the Beyonder, the Beyonders, this guy's has seen and done all and outsmarted them all and his ambition and determination and will are boundless. Doom is a master of science and technology and his magical powers match Jean's psychic powers for Doom is also capable of telekinesis and telepathy plus all manner of spells, travel through time, travel through alternate dimensions, etc. His power in magic rivals Doctor Strange and Scarlet Witch.

Doom may have lost against Jean but Jean had Phoenix powers where as Doom was his standard self and for all his natural mortal power he doesn't always defeat his foes, just most of them.

Intelligence goes to Doom. Willpower (I would say Doom more but) they're matched. Tactics and Strategy obviously go to Doom. Jean's natural Omega level potential is only slightly greater than Doom's tech and magical powers. Doom has shown that he can counteract most superhuman abilities from the F4, X-Men and Avengers even capable of making himself immune to Magneto's magnetism despite being in full armor. He can invoke entities of demonic or cosmic origin, travel through time and space, travel through dimensions and teleport himself. This is all Doom's magical power. Can Jean teleport or open up a portal to another dimension herself without Phoenix's powers?

I may be underestimating Jean on some aspects but at the same time she's also being overestimated. Her willpower is staggering but most of her feats and powers are due to her possessing the Phoenix. The number of her natural powers and feats don't stack up to her actions as Phoenix. Jean's entire them revolves around her being the Phoenix Force Avatar. That's why she's most recognizable for. Jean and Phoenix but Jean without the Phoenix is not as impressive on her own. Death has no hold over Jean because of Phoenix. Jean is supremely powerful mostly because of the Phoenix. Jean has been conquered death because of the Phoenix. Her most noticeable and impressive acts all come from the Phoenix rather than her own power. Doom on the other hand is a mortal man who through his own intelligence, willpower and his own powers has achieved indomitable feats and acquired ultimate power. Unlike Jean who was practically handed over ultimate power, Doom has grinded and through his own strength achieved ultimate power. He earned it whereas Jean was handed ultimate power. Doom has also been faced with Death and demons like Mephisto. In fact he has conquered and tricked them.

Stopping the cycle of life!? Jean used her telepathy to hold onto Annie's soul and if she could do it than in theory and technically other powerful telepaths can replicate her feat. Heroes of all walks of life have staved off death from themselves and kept others from meeting their end through their own efforts.

We are talking about God Doom vs White Phoenix Jean, both the power of the Beyonders and the power of the Phoenix. God Doom alone against the Phoenix Force, Doom can win just as Phoenix has been defeated by Earth's heroes and like Hope and Wanda defeated Phoenix in AvX. Difference is, neither Wanda nor Hope had God Doom's virtual omnipotence. Jean stomped Emma because at the time Jean was ALSO Phoenix, one and the same remember, PHOENIX. I am not saying Jean on her own isn't impressive, she is, but on her own without the Phoenix she is not as impressive as Doom who hasn't had a cosmic force throughout most of his life giving him ultimate power and an immunity to death. Besides, all of Jean and Doom's powers individually will be absorbed into their respective virtual omnipotences, what will decide this contest is who is smarter, who is more capable, versatile and efficient, who is the better strategist and tactician and who has better mastery of their virtual omnipotences.

You said Doom ran from Phoenix Jean, not Jean herself alone without Phoenix. Its laughable to think Doom as God Doom would run from Phoenix when he has literally seen and done it all and acquired through his own merits virtual omnipotence. I remind you, Doom (mere mortal) ran from a Phoenix powered Jean, not Jean herself and not her power. I already explained that the Beyonders power and Phoenix's powers match each other as being virtually omnipotent so the contest will be decided on who's the better host Doom or Jean. Ergo for this we need to analyze Doom and Jean in their standard form and Jean without the use of the Phoenix and stand on equal ground with Doom.

@ursaber: Point taken on the beyonder.

Jean has dealt with cosmic level beings outside of just Phoenix. Onslaught and the Celestial in X-Factor come to mind first and foremost.

Doom lost to a weaker version of Phoenix Jean. He won against Rachel Summers Phoenix. Both were inexperienced. It is not only a parallel at the difference in power for different hosts, but also shows Doom has tried and failed against the real Phoenix. Even if it was merely the force acting as Jean.

As for Jeans powerful capabilities, she may not be able to teleport in the physical most sense, but you should take into consideration Jeans astral form, capable of entering the astral plane, aka an alternate dimension for psychics. Then if she were to be killed, she could just as easily enter so done and possess them, bringing her powers with her. She has traveled unaided tough space before without Phoenix, even if I were just a time due to the psychic shielding being airtight. This shows Jeans resourcefulness,power, skill, and if need be, she could always call to the Phoenix. We know that from the many times it has responded to her calls or aid, even mentioning it in Endsong when Jean rejected its attempt to resurrect her. Cosmic power is never to far from Jean, but she has shown skill without need of it in her overall history. Its sad that not many know that, and only credit her as Phoenix, but the truth is, she is just as capable without the Phoenix, even accessing its powers without it due to that being one and the same deal in Endsong. Nowadays, Jeans natural state is Phoenix, but even to compare her previous mortal form to Doom, it is still much closer.

As for willpower, a big part about telepathy is willpower. Resisting the Phoenix is just one, though a big, example of her willpower. Others include the number of times she held out with her tk enough to give the team the time needed to do what they needed to do, forcing other entities out of minds (such as to demon that tried to possess her and Apocalypse possessing Scott), forcing her way into people like Magneto's mind (whom not even Xavier was able to penetrate at times), and even at her young age when her friend died, she stopped the life cycle briefly, to keep her from dying. That is not skill, that raw willpower and actual psionic power.

True, but all heroes were still dying, even slowly. Jean halted it completely. I'd like to hear of the telepaths who have accomplished this feat if it is so doable in theory. Jean actually accomplished something that you say can be done by other telepaths in theory. We can't say as much if no other being that doesn't have cosmic power or magic power has demonstrated as much. Like. Or not, her stopping Annie briefly from dying was a huge feat for a telepath, especially one at her age. I can understand that if O were speaking of Jean herself, yes, she has more control over her faculties, but an age 11 or 12 Jean Grey with powers barely surfacing, holding her friends soul tightly enough that it stopped her dying successfully for a time only to be dragged down with her to the otherwise almost completely says a lot. No telepath as far as I know has demonstrated as much as far as I know. I will dial down the severity of it if you can name an example of a telepath doing this.

On the subject of AvX, the heroes didn't defeat the Phoenix, Hope and Wanda did. More so Hope, due to evidence showing from issue ten that her powers can't affect half of the Phoenixes power on their own. I am confident that Hope probably could have handled it on her own with bothe Wanda's and Shao Lao's powers at her disposal, since Phoenix hosts typically can affect the Phoenix and Scarlet Witches hexes seemingly having no effect. The 'No More Phoenix' ordeal was most likely done by Hope Summers solely, with Wanda perhaps directing her. Otherwise, Wanda should have been able to take on the last two members, Dark Phoenix, or Hope as Phoenix on her own. The heroes at best, were distraction. Only Xavier was the one other person capable of doing anything, and he lost not only to half Phoenix Scott, but to Dark Phoenix years earlier. He only succeeded back then because Jean's humanity was still in play resisting Dark Phoenix.

Doom ran from a weaker variant of Green Phoenix posing as Jean Grey, while the real deal was resting at Jamaica Bay. She had just gone through the M'Kraan Crystal ordeal not long before and lost to Magneto because of it. If Doom were so capable, she should have been know problem, like Rachel was. After all, this ttok place after he had already trapped Rachel in a looping illusion that restrained her completely. The only credit I will give him is the fact that neither he nor his assistant saw her attack coming, yet he ran from Dark Phoenix when he could have had ample opportunity to take her. The only other time I remember seeing Doom against Jean was an X-Factor scan, and he did not face Jean, but rather had a hostage. The closest that we get of such a battle is Teen Jean vs Ultimate Dr.Doom. Neither are the real versions, so I doubt that we could use these. Needless to say, Jean still won that one since she was able to match him in power while simultaneously buying time to wake the rest of the team up, but again, not the real version so its null. If you want the closest Jean vs Doom, that is what I'd refer to since it is a natural telepathic Jean, teen no less, vs an experienced Dr.Doom. Looking for a Doom vs Jean example where neither have fought against each other in the terms you suggest is a bit redundant in my opinion, but just as well I guess.

@ursaber: Also, I just noticed the motif on the Teen Jean book. Oy, I've been really busy, lately, a lot is escaping my notice. Mostly in terms of secular work.

Anyways, when I read it, I was relieved that it was actually decent. Since it is a Jean book those doubled it into something I like. The art was surprisingly good, the continuity in line with Blue was there (and by that I mean Pickle. +2 for adding the cutie, I was disappointed Scott 'chased him away' as Bobby put it.) I love the relating of Jeens overall thoughts on our Jeans legacy, whether good or bad because we mostly saw utter shock about Jeen and how she wanted to follow her own path, never elaborate thoughts on her predecessor in detail. Liked the familiarity the Phoenix was speaking towards Jeen in, sort of alludes to how close the real Jean was to the force, especially when it commented on her confidence. (Emphasizing how Jean Grey would hold back her power due to uncertainty of her ability to control her powers.) I also liked how Hopeless described her as a beginner. Even though she has been in that time for a while, she still is a young one getting started in the superhero game, and it is emphasized real well. I didn't notice , but some say they saw bits of Emma in there, so Hopeless is done real well then if s true.

@pyrofn:

Over and over again you prove my point. Green Phoenix Jean is still PHOENIX powers. Even having a fragment of Phoenix makes any host a powerful force regardless of their experience. Green Phoenix Jean is the standard Phoenix form before being led astray into the much more unhinged and destructive Dark Phoenix but it is the cosmic power of the Phoenix nonetheless.

Doom is a mere mortal and even if he lost to Green Phoenix Jean, he still fought and lived, Doom, a mortal man with no cosmic powers of his own to counter Phoenix. Doom has achieved ultimate power not through some godsend firebird from space, but through his own will, power and intelligence. The most notable of Jean's accomplishments are due to the Phoenix.

In this match up we are not pitting plain ol Doom against Jean with Phoenix, we are pitting GOD DOOM against White Phoenix Jean. Doom has only ever lost to Jean because she summoned the powers of the Phoenix like a crutch. Pit standard Doom against standard Jean and Doom is the superior. All of Doom's accomplishments have been through his own intelligence, power and will alone without the aid of a cosmic force helping him achieve the impossible which is what Jean has had almost always.

In this matchup Jean is going to face a Doctor Doom with over 50 uninterrupted years of experience wielding virtual omnipotence to stalemate Jean's Phoenix Consciousness. Doom isn't gonna run away and won't even be a shred intimidated by Jean as White Phoenix because he too also holds power to stalemate her's.

The question is on whether Doom or Jean (without their respective cosmic powers) are the superior in intelligence, willpower, efficiency and capacity. In this category, Jean's Phoenix powers are not taken into account only her own Omega level Telekinesis and Telepathy against Doom's Magical prowess.

In this contest, Jean and Phoenix are separate entities, just as Doom and Beyonders power are separate. Both Phoenix and Beyonder stalemate each other as they possess virtual omnipotence, ergo by definition, virtual omnipotence against virtual omnipotence is a tie. The deciding factor will be Doom and Jean themselves and their own skills, abilities and intelligence. Who is the better commander?

My answer is Doom.

The art was neat, clean and understandable which is a plus.

Hopeless did a good enough job to differentiate this Jean from the One True Jean as her own Jean version. Her fears are both out of ignorance and out of the reality of the Phoenix's actions.

She's also clearly diverged from Original Jean in attitude, behavior and personality as she display's more modern quirks and traits that Adult Jean didn't have.

Overall its was enjoyable enough.

Also did you notice how Teen Jean mentioned that "I never died in the love of my life's stupid arms". It was funny and maybe a hint of things to come. Also this Jean looks significantly more younger than Jean from All New X-Men. She went from an early college chick back to high school.

@ursaber: Being powerful doesn't set a host in stone as the same level as the rest. Like many cases, there are different levels of power between Phoenix hosts. Defeating one host does not mean they can beat the rest.

Doom did not attain the power on his own. He had clear help from the likes of Dr.Strange and Molecule Man. And as I've mentioned before, the brunt of Jeans feats do not all come from the Phoenix, but if we are to compare ones of God Dooms level, then we have to use ones at his level. I have mentioned a few of Jeans own feats without Phoenix, should I keep going? Btw, just because Doom got away does not mean he could survive another Phoenix encounter, ergo why he ran before Dark Phoenix could notice.

Needless to say, you are ultimately right about one among many things. This isn't Phoenix vs Doom, but White Phoenix can God Doom. The examples of Doom against Phoenix may not help determine the winner, which I've failed to recognize, oddly enough. Still, to say the ample amount of feats Jean has stacked up for herself is credited to the Phoenix, is wrong. Not to mention Doom on his own cannot do things such reality warping without an outside force, just the same as Jean. Jean has fought the likes of Mr.Sinister, Goblin Queen, Onslaught, hordes of demons, a Celestial, Binary, Meme (a mutant who absorbed multiple minds), Magneto, and Apocalypse successfully without the Phoenixes help. Experience against magical users, geniuses, powerful mutants, and cosmic beings that aren't the Phoenix. What is Dooms experience fighting telepaths on Jeans level? At best, I've seen Doom warn Emma about the consequences of reading his thoughts, in which she didn't even look like she was pressing hard in the first place to warrant it as a proper feat. The only other evidence are his Doombots that could fool low-level telepaths, something Jean is not.

In this match-up, Doom is gonna face someone who has conquered both life and death her whole time in comics, with the rest of that time spent being an actual cosmic being, thereby given her the edge in using that type of power per Doom who has attained and lost such levels of power everytime where she has not.

Also, you did just say that Jean and Phoenix were one and the same being according to Endsong. We can no longer count Jeans lack of knowledge being a cosmic force anymore since she has fully merged and spent te rest of the comic time as a cosmic being, where Doom only had a much brief time being a God over Battleworld. Dooms intelligence and strategy would matter, had he not lost so much with said achievements and Jean triumphing people like Doom and feared as much if not more than Doom, not to mention them having more power than Doom.

This is why I think Jean wins.

@pyrofn:

Doom HAS resisted Emma Frost's telepathy. It wasn't a taunt, Doom resisted through sheer force of will. Emma is on Jean and Xavier's level of telepathy hence her being an Omega level telepath.

Doom didn't get the power of the Beyonders on his own (well except for the Power Cosmic and the Original Beyonder's power, ON HIS OWN) but the power he wielded was all him. Fate dictated he would lose his power in order to progress the plot but in this scenario its just God Doom against White Phoenix. No aids like Strange or Molecule Man or a Phoenix Consciousness. Its only Doom and Jean with virtual omnipotence on their respective sides.

Jean on her own, with her own telekinesis and telepathy cannot alter reality and neither can Doom. However Jean cannot travel through dimensions or in time like Doom can with his magic and his devices. Doom has faced off against every hero and nearly every villain in the MU, and it was all him, every single time it was all Doom with his own power with no aid like Phoenix. And not just heroes and villains, cosmic entities, monsters, demons, you name it. Doom survived a blast from a fully powered Infinity Gauntlet and continued fighting.

Jean's conquest of life and death has always been through her link to the Phoenix, not through her own power. Every time she was killed, by circumstance or Wolverine, the Phoenix manifests like an emergency net to save her. The best Jean can do to evade death is to save her mind via the Astral Plane while her body dies but through her own power (no Phoenix) Jean cannot come back to life. In Endsong she came back because by that point in time she was the Phoenix, one half of the greater firebird.

Right now, within the Marvel Universe, Jean and Phoenix are a single entity but because of the retcon that originally resurrected Jean (cocoon in Jamaica Bay) they won't always be one and the same as they can easily separate into two individual beings if the writer wishes it. For the purposes of this versus match, there are two sides but four combatants.

1. Doom
   1. Beyonders Power (virtual omnipotence)
2. Jean
   1. White Phoenix (virtual omnipotence)

The bit about Doom losing his power and Jean always winning is due to ONE rule in superhero comics, Good Guy and Bad Guy. By this law Jean as the Good Gal is stated to come out victorious on most occasions amped up by her Phoenix connection whereas PLOT always demands that the bad guys lose. This law does not apply here.

Doom's intelligence dwarfs Jean's completely. His willpower matches Jean's. His own natural power is only slightly surpassed by Jean's Omega level power. On power and will they are almost evenly matched. Their own individual power, not Jean with Phoenix. Doom's intelligence and capacity for preparation, analysis, strategy and combat tactics coupled with his experience fighting every hero and villain in the Marvel Universe will give Doom an edge in experience over Jean. That together with virtual omnipotence to match the power of the White Phoenix makes me certain Doom would defeat White Phoenix Jean through great hardship. This isn't a battle to save the universe or protect others. This is a battle to determine supremacy and this is the kind of battle where Doom revels and gives it his all because its all for power. Heroes are always typically empowered because of their need to protect their loved ones but in here that's not something to worry about because this is all just the two of them. The only motivation these two will have is survival and victory. Nothing so noble and nothing so malevolent.

Doom will win because of the nature of this combat.

X-Men: Discover Your Hidden Mutant Power

https://www.whatsyourmutantpower.com/

I got Telekinesis, like Jean Grey :)

@pyrofn@adamtrmm@koays@del_torro@hopesummersforthefuture@sprior93@hawk2916@darthphoenix@mcklayn@invain@stormphoenix@marvelman92@poisonfleur@itsaworld@phoenixofthetides@phoenixegg@sourwolf97@DevilMayehm666@macdio@krleavenger

@ursaber: I got magnetism, and hell I'm not complaining about it xD

Cool. In many ways, Magnetism can contest and beat Telekinesis because of how focused it is. Whereas Telekinesis can manipulate everything (however through great concentration) Magnetism allows for easier manipulation.

@ursaber: Ugh I'm a Telekinesis-Jean Grey -_-

@stormphoenix:

So am I :)

What's wrong with that!? :(

With Telekinesis you can do almost anything.

Magnetism

@ursaber: I wanna be Storm lol. But eh I guess your right , I can control people's mind.

I denounce this fake test.

Also got telekinesis :) really liked the question cards with Xmen pictures at the back

Actually that's Telepathy. You can manipulate the physical world but you cannot influence the mind. You can control a person's body against their actively resisting will but you can't do like Professor X.

Still, you can move objects without touching them, you can fly, create force fields, etc. The list goes on and on.

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis

Ok what power did you get that made you disappointed?

@ursaber:

I can't possibly say it out loud <_< >_>

But to be honest, I was just having fun with the "survey", I mean for real the questions were pretty nonsensical so I clicked accordingly lol

@ursaber: Sorry I was drunk a bit.

@ursaber: That is still up for debate since like I said, Emma didn't make any real attempt. It was literally,

"Ms.Frost, no man or woman shall attempt at entering the mind of Doom. I suggest you stop or risk incurring my wrath."

"Yeah, OK."

No actual display of fear or even a display of struggle in Emma. Not to mention Jean is more powerful and skilled than Emma as she has shown before. This gives me little faith in Doom going up against a psychic actually trying with Jeans level of power.

The fifth in question sounds good on paper, as I've said many times, but if we go by canon, than no, Doom isn't getting this power all on his own. It came with the help of another. If Jean were to just face Doom alone, than this fight would be much closer, but it isn't. What would most likely happen rather than Doom using his intelligence due to the threat of the White Phoenix, he would do just as he did to Scott. He'd view her as inferior, which would cost him for underestimating her power. She would hit him harder and he'd barely have any time to defend himself. Once things start becoming even, Doom would try to think of a way around her, whereas she would dispel any cosmic or magic attempt due to her having more time as cosmic entity than he. He would gain a couple surprise attacks, but nothing to truly to put her down. Once it goes to the battle of the mind, she will keep breaking through his defenses because unlike Dooms history against telepaths, she has more experience in her mortal form against those of indomitable will and knows the work arounds, making it easier will be the nexus of all psionic energy powering her up more and more as the fight drags on. If she were to learn any bit of info as to what powers Doom, she could go to that source (Molecule Man) and have a Congo of her own with him, or just straight take care of him, since as I've explained, he has his own weaknesses. That of being susceptible to the laws of the universe, such as life and death, which she typically is. If need be, she could even summon Reed Richards and absorb his knowledge since he was present. Assuming no one is around, the fight would only go as far as the mind, since as you said, they are equal on the physical aspects. That is her department. He can resist as much as he likes, but he isn't a telepath and he can't build a device that'll successfully halt her because every device used against the Phoenix to dampen it has failed. Concentration won't be a problem because Jean has multitasked before without it inhibiting the overall effectiveness of her attacks. The more this fight goes on, the less evidence I am seeing that will properly halt her and give Doom the win.

Going to the astral plane is a form of dimension hopping, even if. Is mutually exclusive to telepaths only. Traveling through time is an issue for regular Jean, but we can't say that will be a problem since we are applying these abilities to God Doom and White Phoenix. Actually, neither will the dimension hopping, especially since Phoenix Jean has experience in that department. Whether Jean was incapable of. In her mutant state or not, that is null in a match where she can do those things and exist outside of those realms. Remember, you said, we were determining skills that Jean and Doom could do in they're native states that provides some form of balance tipping. Mentioning Jeans inability to travel through time and dimensions without Phoenix, is moot when her time as Phoenix compensates. Dont tell me that we are gonna take that experience from her because her mutant abilities didn't allow her that as a mutant, especially since she did gain that experience from Madelyne memories and eventually White Phoenix. We should look at her ability against villains like Doom. After all, the Phoenix only adds to her experience, not detracts it, she isn't gonna lose the knowledge when she loses the Phoenix, she just loses the power to use it and could use I just as effectively if she were to gain it back as she has shown before.

As for the foes Doom has faced, I'd like a list of telepaths from there since it will apply to Jean. Jean has faced all kinds of villains like Doom has. Magic, Psychic, Genius, Mutant, Mutate, Demons, Monsters, etc. I mentioned those in the category that Doom fits that she has triumphed over, please compensate that with a list of psychics like Jean.

Now we have run into a problem. You keep mentioning how Jean could not save herself from death without Phoenix. Three things:

1) You forget that on the shuttle, she has resisted death through willpower. She was still as good as dead, but she was still able to resist long enough for Phoenix to aid her. This would be of no issue later on since she was able to use her astral form to take another body. Why is this a problem?

2) She is gonna have the Phoenix in the fight? Why are we gonna write I off when it is gonna be there for her? So what if the Phoenix is the one that gives her that experience? What, is she all of a sudden incompetent in that because she couldn't do I naturally? Is she not adept in using the Phoenix? Can she not call to it? Will the Phoenix go "Nope! Dead!"? Is Doom all of sudden more experienced as a cosmic entity because he has had gained and lost power and escaped death where Jean has gone tough it period? Are we gonna ignore the fact that she has the experience due to the Phoenix and that she would be capable of it had she the power or something else give her that kind of power? Its no different from when your parent teaches you to ride a bike. OE they let go of the handle bars, you can do it on your own. We see this for Jean in Endsong when she could tap into the Phoenixes power and resurrect herself without the Phoenix. Don't tell me Jean is more incompetent than Doom in the use of such powers that he could do just because she didn't have the power as mutant Jean Grey. If she has practiced and successfully used these powers as Phoenix on her own, than she is fully capable of doing it since the power is accessible to her.

3) If you mean that Jean has had less time learning those abilities than Doom, so he will do it better, that is wrong. As I mention above, Jean can do it due to the experience as Phoenix as you have brought out. I would debate she could do it better since she has more power to work with naturally with Phoenix over Dooms limitations. She would be more used to using her newfound power on those levels than Doom because she would have more time using it in ways Doom could ever dream of. We may compare their knowledge as Jean and Doom, but we don't get rid of knowledge given to them from others, unless you are saying Jean will lose her White Phoenix powers. She knows how to use them on a greater level because she has spent time on that level, no matter how she did it. Doom doesn't gain the edge because he was quicker on a more contained level. If anything, that limits Dooms perspective, Jean wouldn't be limited because of Phoenix, she would be enhanced. The Phoenix doesn't hold her hand, it puts her in the grunt of it, much like my weight analogy. Where Doom has to work up to it, she is put in the brunt of it and she will do it just as effectively because she would have already gone through it at a quicker pace than Doom.

We can always think of what-ifs, but unless you mean the actual documented what-if issues, we can't dwell on it too much because it isn't canon in the story. It doesn't mean we stop theorizing how it would go, but it means we still stick to facts and theorlif based on those facts. And the simple fact is, Jean and Phoenix are one and the same, so we must look at them as such. True, the Phoenix still speaks to Jean, but Endsong already provides the extent of that in action, as well as the Here Comes Tomorrow story.

So you are saying that Doom always losing is due to plot, not due to his character flaws or the character accomplishments. I agree that Secret Wars is not the best example to go off, but what of the other stories. You can't tell me that established history is null because the plot was good guy vs bad guy. We still look at their accomplishment and failures as such, unless the character would never do such actions in character, but that isn't the case for Doom. Same can be said for Jean. She has always been doomed to die in her arcs, but she has also always been destined to rise. That isn't the consideration, the consideration is how she does it. Is it on her own? What were the circumstances? Can she replicate it if we provide the necessary tools, whether it is the Phoenix, a mutant amplifier, etc.? These must be considered and unless there was something so specific and unordinary about said circumstances that never happens all the time, than we must take into account the repeated failings.

As for Dooms strategy, an I to suspect Doom is getting prep rather than a random encounter? Because his intelligence will give him only a slight edge, much like every other genius Jeans faced. And we know she can extract that same info if she pushes hard enough. There is clear evidence of her doing so successfully and safely, so that isn't so much a gap since the intelligence and strategy lies in the realm of his mind, something to me is accessible. And I find Dooms active contingency planning to be much similar to Batman. When he implements it, it works, but without it, it inhibits him because he hasn't the time to institute a plan because she has yet to think of one in the spur of the moment. I'm not saying he can't do it, it just isn't as clear cut as you make out out to be in that regard, especially since Jeans triumphed over those with said levels of intellect and has been both spur of the moment battler and planner in her time, even if their opponents dwarf her knowledge with their expansive knowledge.

As for the nature of the combat, this is where the difference between heroes and villains are to simplified in your explanation. While yes, this fight is more barbaric in nature and less noble, it doesn't take away the stakes Jean would go. The emotion behind combats in stories aren't what drive people to do the impossible. It is a factor if it is what has driven said character consistently, but not the supreme factor. If we are thinking logically, then Dooms win could mean a rule under Doom, something Jean would find oppressive. That would give her the drive that you say is missing, just the same way that Dooms drive is ultimate power in every way imaginable. What's more, you underestimate Jeans will to live in every respect of her life. Yes, she would die and risk everything for those she loved, but that doesn't go out the window when her friends are in danger. If she is fighting for her life, she does the impossible. If she fight for another's life, she does the impossible.

Examples:

•On the shuttle, she pushed for survival for her friends and herself. Both she and the Phoenix stated that she was pretty much dead, but her mind wouldn't allow her to acknowledge it, thereby why she was still alive then. This is typical for any character, but it means something for Jean specifically because she specifically was afraid of dying and wanted to keep living, even being in sort of a denial when she realized that she wasn't feeling pain anymore.

•The M'Kraan Crystal brought an interesting revelation. When they were in the heart of the Crystal, it bring up everyone's worst fears to reality in their minds. Jeans was dying specifically. Yet, she was unaffected in contrast to the way everyone else was because she already had died, so it was of no issue to her anymore. It didn't mean necessarily that she didn't care about living sine she still went on living and fighting for her life, she just typically valued her friends lives more than her own.

•Then there was the sentinel incident when she transfered her mind to Emma's body. None of her friend were the target in that moment in time, making that sole feat for survival, in which she did the impossible according to Xavier.

These are but a few examples. While I agree that Jean values others lives over her own, a fight for survival won't exactly mean she won't try as hard. If power is what will help her in the endeavor, she will by all means take that power, as shown from when Maddie's Phoenix piece offered her to escape Madelyne spell and especially when she and the Phoenix met formally on the shuttle when it offered her life and safety of her friends.

Needless to say, the more we go back and forth, this becomes all the more difficult this becomes at determining the victor, because you still brought very good points. There is still doubt at my decision, but I have more confidence in it than Doom, solely why I still read these rather than end it. It is very close. Very. :l

@ursaber: I got Professor X in telepathy, though I have the sneaking suspicion I would ha e gotten Jean if they gave her telepathy and tk or had separate Jean tp and Jean tk. My answers don't line up with Xavier, such aschoosing a bit of fun with my powers and not being a natural born leader. Then again, we can look at Jean as a sort of a successor to Xavier, which I guess makes hit applicable. Whatever the case, I'm happy that I'm telepathic, the world is my oyster for harmless fun. >:D

I got Telekinesis. My application or use of this ability would be similar to the movie Chronicle.

Mine said shape-shifting, but I didn't really pay attention and hit the wrong answer a couple times.