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    X-Men

    Team » X-Men appears in 12773 issues.

    The X-Men are a superhero team of mutants founded by Professor Charles Xavier. They are dedicated to helping fellow mutants and sworn to protect a world that fears and hates them.

    Which Team would You Choose? And Who Was Right?

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    Cutter

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    #1  Edited By Cutter

    Which team would you choose to be? Whose side would you be with? And who you think was right all along? Lets face it....we all wish to have power...we all have a favorite character...especially dressing like one too. And to even awaken in the Marvel world is one of our dreams. I wouldn't say who's side I will choose because THIS is so obvious just...by writing it. But before we get to choose let me have a little memo of why the X-Men collaborate with each other on saving human kind whereas Magneto's conspiracy is to destroy them in order to save his kind (including the X-Men). Ever since the beginning...his primary concern was to protect mutantkind from the genocide his own people suffered. While Prof-X doesn't value one group more than the other. I think the best definition of Magneto's belief is in the book of...God Loves Man Kills. In order to understand you must read this book. Why? Because is the best answer you can get from Magneto's madness toward humanity (beside Anya's death).

    There were a time when Cyclops was right, Prof-X was right, the X-Men was right and all seemed to follow Prof-X's dream...and all because he just want harmony among everyone. However, after so many stories going on, after everything X-Men did, they are still the enemy in humanity's fearful eyes. I came to an understanding that Magneto is clearly in the right and Xavier's X-Men are a bunch of dupes. Magneto theory is always payback time. Yes, payback is nice and it makes you feel good...but that doesn't solve anything and that's the X-Men philosophy. I would be on Prof-X's team since all he wants is equality...where Magneto sometimes wants war or segregation which down the road would start a war. But his reason for this is that there's no such thing as equality when you have super powers and the other party doesn't. People are different, some are better than others with more gifts than others and THAT'S where the problem heated up. Where all the prejudice, racist, hates, jealousy, bitterness (and so on), had begun, where fears on both side grew. Some people might say "Magneto was so right in First Class" In Magneto's belief...mutants will never live in a world where everyone respects them and their lives are nothing but sunshine and unicorns. While Prof-X's dream is nothing, but a dream of hope.

    Despite who you or I might choose...I actually see both perspectives. Like Prof-X side with trying to create peace, but I can also see Magneto's perspective and I actually see why he is the way he is (I wouldn't ask him WHY since to ask WHY is like entering into a crazy spot...lol). And before you grab at my throat listen to what I have to say. Imagine that you lost your family and had to go through something worse than death just because of who you are? And after what happened, you try to live a better life, but you still have to deal with prejudice just because of who you are. And because of who you are...you have to stand with your head erect just to show...who you are. And all I ask is this...if you've gone through all that and you were able to deal with it no matter how extreme and at any cost...would you? Think about it. And I know I'll probably get angry replies, but looking at both the X-Men and Magneto...I think Magneto would have my sympathy. If not, as said, my loyalty or overwhelming support. This is the reason why the Acolytes believed in his cost. Magneto is mutant and proud...and if I was one...I would too.

    My question is...what would you do if you see your kind getting diminished by humans? What if you choose to be in combination of both...Magneto and Prof-X (or even Cyclops) in tolerance and freedom...the liberal ideals? Who you think was right all along anyway?

    This is an example of what humans would do just for being different. And why Magneto is the way he is...and why I think he was right.

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    Yup...Magneto was right all along.

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    Cutter

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    By the way...I found this book while searching for the EoD. I almost forgot about this book :O

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    Jay_Alam

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    There is a scene in the movie (First Class) when Mystique, in her more *normal* human form, is lifting weights. Magneto startles her by manipulating the weights to float in the air above. he say to her, *If you are using half of your concentration to look normal, then you're only half paying attention to whatever else you are doing. Just pointing out something that could save your life* He then releases the weights and, in order to catch them before they fall on her, Mystique has to release her shifting form. Magneto then says, *You want society to accept you, but you can't even accept yourself*

    in spite of the path that magneto and Mystique eventually choose, I believe in this moment Magneto has the right idea. Self-acceptance may not be easy, but the best thing never are. I think is one thing Magneto got right.

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    Viperians

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    #4  Edited By Viperians

    Magneto is the messiah of mutants only Xavier's dweebs can't see that.

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    There goes Thor hammer hahaha.

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    Night4345

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    Magneto.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @cutter:

    "Are arbitrary labels more important than the way we live our lives, what we're supposed to be more than what we actually are?" -Cyclops.

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    Cutter

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    @oldnightcrawler:

    "I know something of grief. Search throughout my homeland, and you will find none who bear my name. Mine was a large family and it was slaughtered, without mercy, without remorse. So speak to me not of grief boy, you know not the meaning of the word....I remember my childhood, the gas chambers at Auschwitz, the guards joking as they herded my family to their death..."

    "You are far too trusting Charles. Too naive. You have faith in the essential goodness of man. In time you will learn what I have learned. That even those you love will turn from you in horror when they discover what you truly are. Mutants will not go meekly to the gas chambers. We will fight. And we will win.” -Magneto.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @cutter: sure, but that doesn't answer the question so much as changes the subject.

    Yeah, Magneto is lots of people- he's seen the worst of man's inhumanity to man, of what people are capable of when they dehumanize their fellow man; in the end he becomes just as bad, regardless of how he justifies it.

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    cattlebattle

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    #9  Edited By cattlebattle

    Magneto is not a real person, he is a character that has been written by many different writers. The reason why his stance and dialogue in "god Loves, Man Kills" is so great is because Claremont wrote it. The very same Chris Claremont that totally redeemed the character and had him become the headmaster of Xaviers school and intended for him to continue Xaviers dream. There was an even an issue from the 80s where Rachel Grey attempts to kill some anti mutant bigots and Magneto talks her out of it claiming they need to "find a new way". "Hate only breeds more hate" or something like that. Now of course, that Magneto has been retconned into having had his brain tampered with by Moira Mactaggert due to editors wanting him to be a perpetual villain...but, my point is Magneto has had a very convoluted history.

    I like Magneto just as much as anybody else. I think he is without question the best comic book villain, if you can even really call him a villain in the traditional sense. However, I do think his position has always been contrived considering his background. There is nothing wrong with being proud to be a mutant, but when you think you have some right to lord over others because you are born different was kind of the thought process Nazi Germany was born out of. I have no problems, in terms of a long drawn out continuity, with Magneto starting out as a terrorist with his usual standpoint, but personally, in my own "head canon" I would have liked to see him take over for Xavier and continue his dream, maybe a little more militant as Xavier was of course a pacifist, but his whole "terrorist mutant" schtick is really redundant at this point.

    Just my thoughts on Magneto

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    Cutter

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    #10  Edited By Cutter

    @cattlebattle:

    No...Magneto's not a real person. Yes, he's a character with a characterization of what a real man can go through in real life. My point was IF you were awaken in the Marvel world (everyone can have their own Fantasy world...including me). This is not just in the Marvel world...this is actually in real life where prejudice, hates, racism, and soooooo on, exist.

    Your quote "I would have liked to see him take over for Xavier and continue his dream, maybe a little more militant as Xavier was of course a pacifist" My quote " What if you choose to be in combination of both...Magneto or Prof-x (or Cyclops) in tolerance and freedom...the liberal ideals?" I would love that...which means he would follow Prof-X dream in combination with his beliefs. I agree...but this in an old x-man theme that was only dropped after Chris Claramont stopped writing x-men. the very early and post 80s/90s Magneto returns to the evil role but for years he was a "good guy" with demons. He also tried Prof-X way, even teaching/leading the school. but in the end, his way was right.

    This is why Magneto is my all time favorite super-villain: He's not just a cookie-cutter bad guy, he's got complexity and moral ambiguity. In some regards, you may not consider him a villain, but rather an anti-hero.

    @oldnightcrawler:

    And you don't think Magneto already tried that? Let give that quote "meaning" Your quote from Cyclops means...to live your life as a better person even if you aren't....try to be better always. He tried that already after his family was murdered. As I stated already "Imagine that you lost your family and had to go through something worse than death just because of who you are, and after what happened, you try to live a better life but you still have to deal with prejudice just because of who you are."....AND After his daughter's death (which was the only thing that can make him a better person) was taken away from him once again (the only peace of mind he had)...by the humans...and that brought him back to the past of when his family was murdered.

    He tried everything...he tried being a hero (not to mention....several times and for a period of time) and went back to villain because humans continued to light the fire. He even built Genosha so his fellow mutants can come and live their life and have freedom and peace...away from society of prejudice and hate...and what happened? Humans (or government) sent sentinels to destroy them all (which a lot of his kind was diminished) and destroyed Genosha (DOFP was the best described). I'm sure he got to a point where he stepped up and said "I had enough" And I'm sure this wasn't enough to the X-Men to see his reasons of being the way he was because they're a bunch of dupes to let humans do this to their own kind...their own family...their own self and is escalated from that moment on. A better quote that can be close to your quote "I've suffered at the hands of men just following orders...Never Again" -Magneto

    I'm sorry, but Magneto is right.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @cutter said:

    And you don't think Magneto already tried that? Let give that quote "meaning" Your quote from Cyclops means...to live your life as a better person even if you aren't....try to be better always. He tried that already after his family was murdered. As I stated already "Imagine that you lost your family and had to go through something worse than death just because of who you are, and after what happened, you try to live a better life but you still have to deal with prejudice just because of who you are."....AND After his daughter's death (which was the only thing that can make him a better person) was taken away from him once again (the only peace of mind he had)...by the humans...and that brought him back to the past of when his family was murdered.

    He tried everything...he tried being a hero (not to mention....several times and for a period of time) and went back to villain because humans continued to light the fire. He even built Genosha so his fellow mutants can come and live their life and have freedom and peace...away from society of prejudice and hate...and what happened? Humans (or government) sent sentinels to destroy them all (which a lot of his kind was diminished) and destroyed Genosha (DOFP was the best described). I'm sure he got to a point where he stepped up and said "I had enough" And I'm sure this wasn't enough to the X-Men to see his reasons of being the way he was because they're a bunch of dupes to let humans do this to their own kind...their own family...their own self and is escalated from that moment on. A better quote that can be close to your quote "I've suffered at the hands of men just following orders...Never Again" -Magneto

    yeah, I know all that stuff about Magneto, but you still didn't answer the question.

    and you're still just coming up for excuses for why it's okay to be a bigot, because that is what Magneto is. Yes, that bigotry is understandable because of his life experience, but that doesn't make it not bigotry.

    Magneto doesn't value human life because he doesn't identify as being human, because he sees humans as intrinsically evil. But he still is human and, because he doesn't value human life, he himself still does evil things. He hates humanity because some humans are cruel to each other, and he uses this as his justification to be cruel. There's nothing about that that isn't the most dangerous kind of hypocrisy.

    You're just not going to convince me that that there's anything "right" about being a bigot or not valuing human life.

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    #12  Edited By Avenging-X-Bolt

    I can understand how easy would be to pull a Magneto but it the X-Men who are truly right in my mind.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    I can understand how easyir would be to pull a Magneto but it the X-Men who are truly right in my mind.

    exactly. That you can empathize with Magneto is what makes him a great character, but that still doesn't make him right.

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    PurePower

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    ahem F^^k Cyclops. Ya all mother-flowers can follow the Professor X or Cyclops-wanna-b-Magneto as much as you want. I'm hedging my bets with Magneto.

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    BlackBlade

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    There's another reason why Magneto is right anyway... technically, 'Homo Superior' isn't some kind of mutation (i.e. despite being called Mutant) it's evolution.

    Meaning that in the Marvel Universe (barring that whole House of M debacle), in a couple hundred years - the 'mutants' will be the majority. And Magneto, if history keeps his name around, will probably be seen as some kind of messianic figure. I've always known I'd be on Magneto's side, without a doubt. There is just no end to the stupidity evident in humanity's prejudice against mutants that I would be reluctant to throw down with humans even if Magneto's team didn't exist. There's not even anything really sick or abnormal about his methods; he's very clear about what he intends to do and he follows through with it.

    "Magneto Was Right"

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    StarWatcher

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    I love me some Magneto but I'd go with the X-men. Although things are quite different now.

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    Cutter

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    @cutter said:

    And you don't think Magneto already tried that? Let give that quote "meaning" Your quote from Cyclops means...to live your life as a better person even if you aren't....try to be better always. He tried that already after his family was murdered. As I stated already "Imagine that you lost your family and had to go through something worse than death just because of who you are, and after what happened, you try to live a better life but you still have to deal with prejudice just because of who you are."....AND After his daughter's death (which was the only thing that can make him a better person) was taken away from him once again (the only peace of mind he had)...by the humans...and that brought him back to the past of when his family was murdered.

    He tried everything...he tried being a hero (not to mention....several times and for a period of time) and went back to villain because humans continued to light the fire. He even built Genosha so his fellow mutants can come and live their life and have freedom and peace...away from society of prejudice and hate...and what happened? Humans (or government) sent sentinels to destroy them all (which a lot of his kind was diminished) and destroyed Genosha (DOFP was the best described). I'm sure he got to a point where he stepped up and said "I had enough" And I'm sure this wasn't enough to the X-Men to see his reasons of being the way he was because they're a bunch of dupes to let humans do this to their own kind...their own family...their own self and is escalated from that moment on. A better quote that can be close to your quote "I've suffered at the hands of men just following orders...Never Again" -Magneto

    yeah, I know all that stuff about Magneto, but you still didn't answer the question.

    and you're still just coming up for excuses for why it's okay to be a bigot, because that is what Magneto is. Yes, that bigotry is understandable because of his life experience, but that doesn't make it not bigotry.

    Magneto doesn't value human life because he doesn't identify as being human, because he sees humans as intrinsically evil. But he still is human and, because he doesn't value human life, he himself still does evil things. He hates humanity because some humans are cruel to each other, and he uses this as his justification to be cruel. There's nothing about that that isn't the most dangerous kind of hypocrisy.

    You're just not going to convince me that that there's anything "right" about being a bigot or not valuing human life.

    Magneto is right, but he did it the wrong way. I'll give that much...no more. He is not EVIL...just misguided. He is only bigoted because of bigots, doesn't make it right, but it does make it understandable. In his new series...Magneto's only hunting bad people...as you can see what humans are really doing.

    Xavier is NOT a Saint either...neither Cyclops. In Wolverine: Origins we learn that Prof-X is the one responsible for mind-wiping Logan , and on more than one occasion. Oh, he also did that to Magneto as well. Which is not necessarily something someone with high morals and ethics does. As far as Magneto, he is a tormented soul. With everything he has had to live through, clearly he is broken. Does Cyclops was also right for killing Prof-X? No he wasn't as much as Magneto don't have the right for killing humans. Cyclops is another hypocrite who after written by Fraction...was acting like as machiavellian as Magneto and trying to compare himself with Magneto which at one point...think I can say he might thought Magneto was right.

    "I'm all for peace, love, and understanding, maybe if I didn't live on this hateful planet, maybe I'd try to work with other side and not take it to the streets if mankind didn't demand it"

    -Magneto was Right.

    Is that better?

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    Moonlighterstone

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    @cutter said:

    @oldnightcrawler said:

    @cutter said:

    And you don't think Magneto already tried that? Let give that quote "meaning" Your quote from Cyclops means...to live your life as a better person even if you aren't....try to be better always. He tried that already after his family was murdered. As I stated already "Imagine that you lost your family and had to go through something worse than death just because of who you are, and after what happened, you try to live a better life but you still have to deal with prejudice just because of who you are."....AND After his daughter's death (which was the only thing that can make him a better person) was taken away from him once again (the only peace of mind he had)...by the humans...and that brought him back to the past of when his family was murdered.

    He tried everything...he tried being a hero (not to mention....several times and for a period of time) and went back to villain because humans continued to light the fire. He even built Genosha so his fellow mutants can come and live their life and have freedom and peace...away from society of prejudice and hate...and what happened? Humans (or government) sent sentinels to destroy them all (which a lot of his kind was diminished) and destroyed Genosha (DOFP was the best described). I'm sure he got to a point where he stepped up and said "I had enough" And I'm sure this wasn't enough to the X-Men to see his reasons of being the way he was because they're a bunch of dupes to let humans do this to their own kind...their own family...their own self and is escalated from that moment on. A better quote that can be close to your quote "I've suffered at the hands of men just following orders...Never Again" -Magneto

    yeah, I know all that stuff about Magneto, but you still didn't answer the question.

    and you're still just coming up for excuses for why it's okay to be a bigot, because that is what Magneto is. Yes, that bigotry is understandable because of his life experience, but that doesn't make it not bigotry.

    Magneto doesn't value human life because he doesn't identify as being human, because he sees humans as intrinsically evil. But he still is human and, because he doesn't value human life, he himself still does evil things. He hates humanity because some humans are cruel to each other, and he uses this as his justification to be cruel. There's nothing about that that isn't the most dangerous kind of hypocrisy.

    You're just not going to convince me that that there's anything "right" about being a bigot or not valuing human life.

    Magneto is right, but he did it the wrong way. I'll give that much...no more. He is not EVIL...just misguided. He is only bigoted because of bigots, doesn't make it right, but it does make it understandable. In his new series...Magneto's only hunting bad people...as you can see what humans are really doing.

    Xavier is NOT a Saint either...neither Cyclops. In Wolverine: Origins we learn that Prof-X is the one responsible for mind-wiping Logan , and on more than one occasion. Oh, he also did that to Magneto as well. Which is not necessarily something someone with high morals and ethics does. As far as Magneto, he is a tormented soul. With everything he has had to live through, clearly he is broken. Does Cyclops was also right for killing Prof-X? No he wasn't as much as Magneto don't have the right for killing humans. Cyclops is another hypocrite who after written by Fraction...was acting like as machiavellian as Magneto and trying to compare himself with Magneto which at one point...think I can say he might thought Magneto was right.

    "I'm all for peace, love, and understanding, maybe if I didn't live on this hateful planet, maybe I'd try to work with other side and not take it to the streets if mankind didn't demand it"

    -Magneto was Right.

    Is that better?

    Well, this is affection. Poor Magneto. Despite how wrong or right people might think he is or was, Magneto has his motives to be the way he is. No one is perfect in the mutants world including the XM. B4 anyone became a "HERO" some of them started as a villain. Magneto is not the only one.

    I like Magneto. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't. I also feel like Xavier's dream and his own clash analogously to the State of Nature debate taken from the 18th Century. Is Man essentially good or evil? I feel like Xavier was naive and too kind. When he was needed to be strong for his kind... he was weak for humankind.

    I never saw Magneto as a villian, just a man deeply scarred by what's around him. He was extreme in his ways because his trust was exhausted. He met nothing but tragedy and sadness his whole life. How does one who live through the same experiences be not affected? There are many writers who try to make Magneto "evil" and "hypocrite"; this was done for the sake of making a villian to fill up the storyline without depth. Every good villain has their own reasons to be "EVIL". There are only a few characters who are purely evil in marvel heroes universe and Magneto isn't one of them. With the X-Men being seen as heroes to the most of the world, Xavier's way is often right. Then again, there will always be groups like the Purifiers and places like Genosha who want to see mutants wiped off the face of the Earth, in which case, Magneto is right about completely annihilating them. No doubt... Magneto was right. And always was. Despite the decision he made he got his reasons.

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    Azalae

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    Oh no hold on hold on. Magneto is the last one ya should be considering a monster. In reality of human kind (speaking in the real world and not fanfic), are the ones who drag them selves into this fear into religious "belief" that if you are a deviant, you should be dead, crucified, and burned. Most of Magneto actions are fueled by fear, I think. He is afraid of what happened to him (Jews, Holocaust) will happen again to the mutants. This part I can understand. Again read Civil War House of M and House of M. It seems to me that you have Magneto down pat. I don't see him as a bad guy. Just a guy who does things not exactly in a good way. But in many ways Magneto is right no matter which angle you try to look at it. He's the man and a man like him as a survivor should be considered and that his point of view of his life and humans are pretty much one hell of an extraordinary life.

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    Moonlighterstone

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    @azalae said:

    Oh no hold on hold on. Magneto is the last one ya should be considering a monster. In reality of human kind (speaking in the real world and not fanfic), are the ones who drag them selves into this fear into religious "belief" that if you are a deviant, you should be dead, crucified, and burned. Most of Magneto actions are fueled by fear, I think. He is afraid of what happened to him (Jews, Holocaust) will happen again to the mutants. This part I can understand. Again read Civil War House of M and House of M. It seems to me that you have Magneto down pat. I don't see him as a bad guy. Just a guy who does things not exactly in a good way. But in many ways Magneto is right no matter which angle you try to look at it. He's the man and a man like him as a survivor should be considered and that his point of view of his life and humans are pretty much one hell of an extraordinary life.

    Indeed

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    Galerion

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    I choose Apocalypse. The weak should die and the strong ones should prosper.

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    Moonlighterstone

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    @galerion said:

    I choose Apocalypse. The weak should die and the strong ones should prosper.

    Funny cuz even Apocalypse was destroyed by Magneto. So it's like a has a weak link :)

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    Azalae

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    @azalae said:

    Oh no hold on hold on. Magneto is the last one ya should be considering a monster. In reality of human kind (speaking in the real world and not fanfic), are the ones who drag them selves into this fear into religious "belief" that if you are a deviant, you should be dead, crucified, and burned. Most of Magneto actions are fueled by fear, I think. He is afraid of what happened to him (Jews, Holocaust) will happen again to the mutants. This part I can understand. Again read Civil War House of M and House of M. It seems to me that you have Magneto down pat. I don't see him as a bad guy. Just a guy who does things not exactly in a good way. But in many ways Magneto is right no matter which angle you try to look at it. He's the man and a man like him as a survivor should be considered and that his point of view of his life and humans are pretty much one hell of an extraordinary life.

    Indeed

    :)

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    oldnightcrawler

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    #24  Edited By oldnightcrawler

    @cutter said:
    1. Magneto is right, but he did it the wrong way. I'll give that much...no more. He is not EVIL...just misguided. He is only bigoted because of bigots, doesn't make it right, but it does make it understandable. In his new series...Magneto's only hunting bad people...as you can see what humans are really doing.
    2. Xavier is NOT a Saint either...neither Cyclops. In Wolverine: Origins we learn that Prof-X is the one responsible for mind-wiping Logan , and on more than one occasion. Oh, he also did that to Magneto as well. Which is not necessarily something someone with high morals and ethics does. As far as Magneto, he is a tormented soul. With everything he has had to live through, clearly he is broken. Does Cyclops was also right for killing Prof-X? No he wasn't as much as Magneto don't have the right for killing humans. Cyclops is another hypocrite who after written by Fraction...was acting like as machiavellian as Magneto and trying to compare himself with Magneto which at one point...think I can say he might thought Magneto was right.

    1. misguided makes it sound like he was following anyone else's wishes than his own. I like Magneto, I think he's a great character, but there's no justification for being a bigot. In fact, as a perpetual victim of bigotry and an intelligent, worldly person, he's got even less justification than most people who are bigots simply because he should a broader cultural perspective. I don't think anyone's really as simple as being purely good (whatever that is) or purely evil, but when both someone's methods and goals are based on hatred, bigotry, and violence, I feel it's fair to say that what they do is evil.

    I do like the idea of Magneto being more of an anti-hero, like a mutant-themed Punisher type character, there's a nice balance there of a lot of the themes that make Magneto distinct. But I would never say the Punisher was right either, and even he's not a bigot.

    2. I'm not even trying to say that any other character is right, necessarily (most of the major X-men characters have some morally questionable and/or hypocritical decision at some point), I'm just saying that Magneto certainly was not.

    And you still didn't answer the question.

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    Jay_Alam

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    I never read this book *God Loves Man Kills*, but I know it's a novel. And the graphic novel seems too dark. Especially where those kids are executed in cold blood simply because they're mutants. I come to wonder... If Magneto don't make a stop of this hate toward mutants, then, who will? The x men? If they see a human burning a mutant they probable just be like "Why oh Why tell me why" and then walk away like if nothing happened. I mean, beside Wolverine (I assuming since what they do is protect humans).

    I ask cause in the panel it shows the x men walking into the scene, where stryker is giving a speech, They seem to know about the two little children and just saying "Why? it's wrong. We are human We should be equal", when if it was Magneto he would just kill them. Magneto's reaction would be more aggressive then the x men. I truly don't know what to say.

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    #26  Edited By Viperians
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    Cutter

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    #27  Edited By Cutter

    @cutter said:
    1. Magneto is right, but he did it the wrong way. I'll give that much...no more. He is not EVIL...just misguided. He is only bigoted because of bigots, doesn't make it right, but it does make it understandable. In his new series...Magneto's only hunting bad people...as you can see what humans are really doing.
    2. Xavier is NOT a Saint either...neither Cyclops. In Wolverine: Origins we learn that Prof-X is the one responsible for mind-wiping Logan , and on more than one occasion. Oh, he also did that to Magneto as well. Which is not necessarily something someone with high morals and ethics does. As far as Magneto, he is a tormented soul. With everything he has had to live through, clearly he is broken. Does Cyclops was also right for killing Prof-X? No he wasn't as much as Magneto don't have the right for killing humans. Cyclops is another hypocrite who after written by Fraction...was acting like as machiavellian as Magneto and trying to compare himself with Magneto which at one point...think I can say he might thought Magneto was right.

    1. misguided makes it sound like he was following anyone else's wishes than his own. I like Magneto, I think he's a great character, but there's no justification for being a bigot. In fact, as a perpetual victim of bigotry and an intelligent, worldly person, he's got even less justification than most people who are bigots simply because he should a broader cultural perspective. I don't think anyone's really as simple as being purely good (whatever that is) or purely evil, but when both someone's methods and goals are based on hatred, bigotry, and violence, I feel it's fair to say that what they do is evil.

    I do like the idea of Magneto being more of an anti-hero, like a mutant-themed Punisher type character, there's a nice balance there of a lot of the themes that make Magneto distinct. But I would never say the Punisher was right either, and even he's not a bigot.

    2. I'm not even trying to say that any other character is right, necessarily (most of the major X-men characters have some morally questionable and/or hypocritical decision at some point), I'm just saying that Magneto certainly was not.

    And you still didn't answer the question.

    You're right, Punisher isn't a bigot. He kills everyone equally. But he is motivated by the very same emotional reasoning as Magneto: REVENGE for the slaughter of his family.

    As for the question...

    "Are arbitrary labels more important than the way we live our lives, what we're supposed to be more than what we actually are?" -Cyclops.

    In a perfect world, everyone would live their lives the way they are "supposed to" Do you actually know anyone who does? does anyone? this is NOT a perfect world; neither is Earth 616, or any other timeline/storyline in Marvel. Ideally...yes...we should all strive to live that way, mutant or not...but the reality is that this simply WILL NOT HAPPEN!

    Cool Image...I like it...

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    #28  Edited By Viperians
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    oldnightcrawler

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    @cutter said:

    You're right, Punisher isn't a bigot. He kills everyone equally. But he is motivated by the very same emotional reasoning as Magneto: REVENGE for the slaughter of his family.

    As for the question...

    "Are arbitrary labels more important than the way we live our lives, what we're supposed to be more than what we actually are?" -Cyclops.

    In a perfect world, everyone would live their lives the way they are "supposed to" Do you actually know anyone who does? does anyone? this is NOT a perfect world; neither is Earth 616, or any other timeline/storyline in Marvel. Ideally...yes...we should all strive to live that way, mutant or not...but the reality is that this simply WILL NOT HAPPEN!

    so.. your answer is no, then? (it's just.. it really is a yes or no question, that's all..)

    I'm not saying Magneto should do the right thing, that's neither the purpose nor the beauty of his character; I'm glad Magneto does things for the reasons he does, but that doesn't make them the right reasons. He does things that are wrong for the wrong reasons, that's the point of his character.

    Seeing his actions as understandable is one thing, seeing them as justified is another thing entirely.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @jay_alam said:

    I never read this book *God Loves Man Kills*, but I know it's a novel. And the graphic novel seems too dark. Especially where those kids are executed in cold blood simply because they're mutants. I come to wonder... If Magneto don't make a stop of this hate toward mutants, then, who will? The x men? If they see a human burning a mutant they probable just be like "Why oh Why tell me why" and then walk away like if nothing happened. I mean, beside Wolverine (I assuming since what they do is protect humans).

    I ask cause in the panel it shows the x men walking into the scene, where stryker is giving a speech, They seem to know about the two little children and just saying "Why? it's wrong. We are human We should be equal", when if it was Magneto he would just kill them. Magneto's reaction would be more aggressive then the x men. I truly don't know what to say.

    right, Magneto would just kill anyone he could connect with that murder, right there on t.v. in front of the world. And that would only make things worse for mutants.

    He might stop a few specific killers, but how many more would he create by giving people another reason to fear mutants? People are fearful and vengeful and cruel, that's Magneto's perspective and he's no less so. Magneto hates and fears humans just like Stryker hates and fears mutants. They both give each other good reason to be afraid, but neither of them are right.

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    Jay_Alam

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    @oldnightcrawler:

    right, Magneto would just kill anyone he could connect with that murder, right there on t.v. in front of the world. And that would only make things worse for mutants.

    He might stop a few specific killers, but how many more would he create by giving people another reason to fear mutants? People are fearful and vengeful and cruel, that's Magneto's perspective and he's no less so. Magneto hates and fears humans just like Stryker hates and fears mutants. They both give each other good reason to be afraid, but neither of them are right.

    Yes, I agree with your last sentence. It's why I said "I truly don't know what to say." If I can recall it, humans are the ones that started this war. By looking at both perspectives, in the bad scene if Magneto ever killed them right on T.V. in front of the world, it will be a bad reputation for them. Now, looking at the good scene if Magneto will get to do this it will be just to show them that if they harm another child (or any mutant), death will be awaiting them. This he will do it only to stop this hate crime toward mutants. Because while Stryker is giving them (humans) wings, so they can kill mutants (if they see one). Magneto can take those wings away from them. And talking isn't working and for how long has this been going on and nothing was done to put a stop to this hating thing. No wonder Magneto's reaction will be extreme.

    @cutter: Best Line I ever heard.

    In a perfect world, everyone would live their lives the way they are "supposed to" Do you actually know anyone who does? does anyone? this is NOT a perfect world; neither is Earth 616, or any other timeline/storyline in Marvel. Ideally...yes...we should all strive to live that way, mutant or not...but the reality is that this simply WILL NOT HAPPEN!

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    Koays

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    Yea....I'm with the side not advocating the race wars thank you.

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    Sincerely, if I were a mutant I would go all Magneto-ish extremist.

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    HAWK2916

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    I think i tend to be a bit more jaded in my outlook. I hate racism and bigotry however I think I hate pacifism almost as much as and I'm of the opinion that at times fighting fire with fire is necessary. Its almost a question of do you terrorize a terrorist. I know people will say you would be creating an endless cycle and maybe so but I almost go back to a line from Godfather 2 in which Tom hagen ask the question: " mike you won, do want to kill everybody?" Micheal Corleone responded " I dont want to kill everybody Tom...... Just my enemies".

    Sadly I feel if get rid of them all then the cycle ends and while that may seem like a miserable existence losing your whole family is as well. I happen to be a Black man and if I woke up in Mississippi with crosses burning on my front lawn, I would machine gun everyone out there to death, if I could, and if not I'd take as many of them out as I could. This is the same way I feel about the military. If you are afraid of what Im doing in your cities and towns you might think twice about terrorizing mine. Sometimes you have to become what you hate most to destroy it.

    One of my favorite quotes is from Winston Churchill where he said: "We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence against those that would harm us."I happen to be one of those people and I can understand doing whatever to insure that your the people you care about sleep well at night.

    So i would say no Professor X is not always right and neither is Magneto. I believe you need a little of both, in that I would sit back and try to live and coexist but I would visit swift and terrible justice on anybody that would try to hurt. In my experience you cant coexistence or convince people once their minds are made up so why try. It's really quite simple "is the world a better place with less racist in it?". If the answer is yes then I dont see the dilemna.

    You should hear my views on the criminal system lol

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    Frozon

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    I hate humans and I am one so If I were a mutant... NUFF SAID!

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    Lightblaze

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    Magneto was right. Humanity would persecute mutant-kind. However, his response was wrong: waging counter-genocide/tyranny only escalated the conflict.

    At the same time Xavier was wrong. Humanity and mutant-kind were never going to hold hands and live in peace. Nonetheless, his methods were more fruitful: creating a proactive team helped neutralize radicals and de-escalate tensions.

    This is why the split between Charles and Erik is so tragic. Together, they could have done more to alleviate suffering for both sides by covering for each other's blindspots. Instead, they nullified each other as human and mutant relations descended into full-scale war.

    As you can see there is a balance in-between. Neither Charles and Erik (or even Cyclops) did it right. They all seem to have a point, when this could've be a projecting part of anything. Unfortunately, peace and war will be the answer for everything.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    #37  Edited By oldnightcrawler

    @koays said:

    Yea....I'm with the side not advocating the race wars thank you.

    oh, thank goodness, I was starting to feel like I was the only one.

    this thread makes me a bit sick, actually.

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    #38  Edited By Viperians
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    Koays

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    #39  Edited By Koays

    @koays said:

    Yea....I'm with the side not advocating the race wars thank you.

    oh, thank goodness, I was starting to feel like I was the only one.

    this thread makes me a bit sick, actually.

    Yea, i was kinda hoping the logic would filter through eventually but it's sorta just went left around the time Magneto defenses started to seem like Neo Nazi bullet points.

    There's a point where you realize Prof X's kill them with kindness pacifism isn't dropping the number of potential dark futures, but idk at what point that changes into "Kill them before they kill us" without considering a different peaceful solution first. Magneto is justified in feeling how he does, but there's no justification for starting a war with everyone who isn't like you based on the paranoia of a few people.

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    @koays said:

    @oldnightcrawler said:

    @koays said:

    Yea....I'm with the side not advocating the race wars thank you.

    oh, thank goodness, I was starting to feel like I was the only one.

    this thread makes me a bit sick, actually.

    Yea, i was kinda hoping the logic would filter through eventually but it's sorta just went left around the time Magneto defenses started to seem like Neo Nazi bullet points.

    There's a point where you realize Prof X's kill them with kindness pacifism isn't dropping the number of potential dark futures, but idk at what point that changes into "Kill them before they kill us" without considering a different peaceful solution first. Magneto is justified in feeling how he does, but there's no justification for starting a war with everyone who isn't like you based on the paranoia of a few people.

    Maybe if the humans wouldn't start the war, things would have been as you described. There is nothing being sick about it when this is the fact.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @koays said:

    There's a point where you realize Prof X's kill them with kindness pacifism isn't dropping the number of potential dark futures, but idk at what point that changes into "Kill them before they kill us" without considering a different peaceful solution first. Magneto is justified in feeling how he does, but there's no justification for starting a war with everyone who isn't like you based on the paranoia of a few people.

    Word. Up.

    Maybe if the humans wouldn't start the war, things would have been as you described. There is nothing being sick about it when this is the fact.

    maybe you should check your "facts", because there weren't any Sentinels, Purifiers, Mutant Registration Acts, etc, until after Magneto started attacking military bases. The war that Magneto's fighting, it's a war he started. And all mutants have suffered for it.

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    Maybe if the humans wouldn't start the war, things would have been as you described. There is nothing being sick about it when this is the fact.

    Yea accept who are the soldiers on the human side? The innocent people going about their day when he decides to make his presence known? The innocent people minding their business when he decides to rip apart the earths magnetic field?

    The real enemy are the minority of people who decide to take their hate to extremes NOT Joe the salesman who never graduated highschool let alone learned how to build a sentinel, but is considered an acceptable casualty along with every other person near him, just for being a baseline human in Magneto's war against the 5 people who do take their hate to the extremes necessary to build a giant robot.

    But you know what, if you go around saying "humans are my enemy" and considering all of their lives to be worth the same as the worst of their ilk, then even the best of them are going to see you as their enemy.

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    deactivated-097092725

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    If I may just interject this great discussion with a comment, the recent Magneto has been presented as someone who also wants to protect the humans who have stood up to the humans (and mutants) who have made it their mission to hurt mutants as a whole.

    Great read and an example of why I love the whole X-Men mythos. While applying real world concerns to the discussion is a bit of out of my pay grade, I do like to think I would be more in Xavier's camp, perspectively. Being better than them by not being them is a motto I try really hard to live by.

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    #44  Edited By Viperians

    @koays: @oldnightcrawler:

    He was never a villain for villainy's sake. He was a reasoned, charismatic villain; yes, he had an extreme agenda, but an understandable one. As a boy Magneto was separated from his parents in a Nazi death camp, it makes it clear that he is in fact Jewish. You want to compare a Nazi? Then, take Sebastian as an example and not Mag. The Nazi was Sebastian who wanted to destroyed the whole world, not Magneto. In fact he was a hero at that moment. This war started by Sebastian. In x1 is clearly stated at the beginning of the film what Senator Kelly wanted to do with the mutants. They wanted them to registered only to know who they are, what they can do, and of course to eliminated them. This wasn't just registration (so who started). I'm not saying I'm against humans, but seeing through Magneto's eyes he was right about the whole thing. Humans are just jealous and prejudices only because they can't understand the evolution. If they don't have powers so mutants should be eliminated. Simple as that.

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    Koays

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    Ahwaybutwhaa?

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    @koays said:

    Ahwaybutwhaa?

    Exactly

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @koays: @oldnightcrawler:

    He was never a villain for villainy's sake. He was a reasoned, charismatic villain; yes, he had an extreme agenda, but an understandable one. As a boy Magneto is separated from his parents in a Nazi death camp, it makes it clear that he is in fact Jewish. You want to compare a Nazi? Then, take Sebastian as an example and not Mag. The Nazi was Sebastian who wanted to destroy the whole world, not Magneto. In fact he was a hero at that moment.This war was started by Sebastian when the war was already being created by the humans. In x1 is clearly stated at the beginning of the film what Senator Kelly wanted to do with the mutants. They want them to registered only to know who they are and what they can do and of course to eliminated them. This wasn't just registration (so who started) I'm not saying I'm against humans, but seeing through Magneto's eyes he was right about the whole thing. Humans are just jealous and prejudices only because they can't understand the evolution. If they don't have powers so mutants should be eliminated. Simple as that.

    No Caption Provided

    I'm well aware of Magneto's history and motives, but you're thinking of only the 2011 movie, X-Men: First Class. And yes, in that it is Sebastion Shaw who starts a war with humanity. Magneto just takes up Shaw's cause, despite the fact that he hates him. Even after they've stopped Shaw, stopped the war, and stopped the missiles, Magneto still aims and fires missiles at the fleets of two world powers and declares war on humanity.

    I'm talking about the 1963 comic book, The X-Men #1, the original X-men story, in which it is Magneto who first attacks a military base and declares war on humanity.

    either way, it was a mutant who started the war, and no one was systematically targeting mutants until Magneto gave them justification to. He makes people afraid of mutants because he's afraid of people. That is and always has been the point of his character.

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    Night4345

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    IMO Humans and Mutants will never live in peace, not in the 616 even without Marvel writers keeping them from achieving it. Too much has happened to both sides for a realistic peace to happen. Maybe in another universe where mutantkind made a better first impression, X-Men didn't hide so much in the beginning or someone/group was able to get people to see past the fear with the mutants and humanity somehow balancing the power scale (I do see why humanity is so afraid of out of control mutants and they do need a option to stop them for society to continue. Just not genocidal robots).

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    #49  Edited By Viperians

    @oldnightcrawler said:

    @viperians said:

    @koays: @oldnightcrawler:

    He was never a villain for villainy's sake. He was a reasoned, charismatic villain; yes, he had an extreme agenda, but an understandable one. As a boy Magneto is separated from his parents in a Nazi death camp, it makes it clear that he is in fact Jewish. You want to compare a Nazi? Then, take Sebastian as an example and not Mag. The Nazi was Sebastian who wanted to destroy the whole world, not Magneto. In fact he was a hero at that moment.This war was started by Sebastian when the war was already being created by the humans. In x1 is clearly stated at the beginning of the film what Senator Kelly wanted to do with the mutants. They want them to registered only to know who they are and what they can do and of course to eliminated them. This wasn't just registration (so who started) I'm not saying I'm against humans, but seeing through Magneto's eyes he was right about the whole thing. Humans are just jealous and prejudices only because they can't understand the evolution. If they don't have powers so mutants should be eliminated. Simple as that.

    No Caption Provided

    I'm well aware of Magneto's history and motives, but you're thinking of only the 2011 movie, X-Men: First Class. And yes, in that it is Sebastion Shaw who starts a war with humanity. Magneto just takes up Shaw's cause, despite the fact that he hates him. Even after they've stopped Shaw, stopped the war, and stopped the missiles, Magneto still aims and fires missiles at the fleets of two world powers and declares war on humanity.

    I'm talking about the 1963 comic book, The X-Men #1, the original X-men story, in which it is Magneto who first attacks a military base and declares war on humanity.

    either way, it was a mutant who started the war, and no one was systematically targeting mutants until Magneto gave them justification to. He makes people afraid of mutants because he's afraid of people. That is and always has been the point of his character.

    About Magneto's Bigotry:

    "Stan Lee elaborated that he "did not think of Magneto as a bad guy. He just wanted to strike back at the people who were so bigoted and racist... he was trying to defend the mutants, and because society was not treating them fairly he was going to teach society a lesson. He was a danger of course... but I never thought of him as a villain"

    As for attacking the military base:

    "Magneto's first villainous act is attacking a United States military base called Cape Citadel after bringing down missiles"

    -Wikipedia

    AFTER. BRINGING. DOWN. MISSILES.

    AFTER

    Which means, they had to have FIRED missiles in the first place.

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    Koays

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    @oldnightcrawler said:

    @viperians said:

    @koays: @oldnightcrawler:

    He was never a villain for villainy's sake. He was a reasoned, charismatic villain; yes, he had an extreme agenda, but an understandable one. As a boy Magneto is separated from his parents in a Nazi death camp, it makes it clear that he is in fact Jewish. You want to compare a Nazi? Then, take Sebastian as an example and not Mag. The Nazi was Sebastian who wanted to destroy the whole world, not Magneto. In fact he was a hero at that moment.This war was started by Sebastian when the war was already being created by the humans. In x1 is clearly stated at the beginning of the film what Senator Kelly wanted to do with the mutants. They want them to registered only to know who they are and what they can do and of course to eliminated them. This wasn't just registration (so who started) I'm not saying I'm against humans, but seeing through Magneto's eyes he was right about the whole thing. Humans are just jealous and prejudices only because they can't understand the evolution. If they don't have powers so mutants should be eliminated. Simple as that.

    No Caption Provided

    I'm well aware of Magneto's history and motives, but you're thinking of only the 2011 movie, X-Men: First Class. And yes, in that it is Sebastion Shaw who starts a war with humanity. Magneto just takes up Shaw's cause, despite the fact that he hates him. Even after they've stopped Shaw, stopped the war, and stopped the missiles, Magneto still aims and fires missiles at the fleets of two world powers and declares war on humanity.

    I'm talking about the 1963 comic book, The X-Men #1, the original X-men story, in which it is Magneto who first attacks a military base and declares war on humanity.

    either way, it was a mutant who started the war, and no one was systematically targeting mutants until Magneto gave them justification to. He makes people afraid of mutants because he's afraid of people. That is and always has been the point of his character.

    About Magneto's Bigotry:

    Stan Lee elaborated that he "did not think of Magneto as a bad guy. He just wanted to strike back at the people who were so bigoted and racist... he was trying to defend the mutants, and because society was not treating them fairly he was going to teach society a lesson. He was a danger of course... but I never thought of him as a villain"

    As for attacking the military base:

    "Magneto's first villainous act is attacking a United States military base called Cape Citadel after bringing down missiles"

    -Wikipedia

    AFTER. BRINGING. DOWN. MISSILES.

    AFTER

    Which means, they had to have FIRED missiles in the first place.

    Ok, i'll bite. Who were they firing the missiles at?

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