Now just relax for a second, take a change of pace, and also open you mind:

I found this page to be pretty damn class.

Land had his moments. He is actually a decent artist. When you look at some of his old work from the 90's, he actually used more of a cartooney style with his art, before he adapted to the tracing style. He is just very inconsistent now days, but he is far from the worst artist that has drawn X-Men.

@invain: @adamtrmm:

Is that Colossus turning into Juggernaut?

I guess I don't need to feel to ashamed that I liked some art from Phoenix Endsong.

@ursaber: Yes.

@pyrofn:

The art from Endsong was gorgeous. Just as the X-Men Origins ajean Grey art which featured a photorealistic 1950-60's art style.

Juggernaut Colossues huh. Scarier than either Jugs or Hulk. A truly unstopable and invulnerable force.

I have come around to Land as of late, his faces are still horrible but when the dude actually tries he's fairly decent.

Every artist has strengths and weaknesses, just as different readers will have their preferences. Phoenix Endsong, like above page, had a wealth of very strong, dramatic, 'static' imagery. The panel showing Colossus back, with red lightning effects, looks very dramatic and intense. Imagery of Jean backed by a fiery phoenix bird, with sullen, expressions and posing will look great. So Land can work well with a story that plays to his strengths. Alternatively, stories that require range of expression, the illusion of movement, more dynamic action, the flaws of tracing style become much more apparent.

My own issues with Land though have more to do with tracing other artists work without permission. Its a type of plagiarism. So ethical worries as opposed to artistic preferences. That being said, Marvel is okay with it, so I'd generally, at the least, hope they'd pair him up with writers, where styles compliment each other.

tracing aside, Land's art is always pretty in my eyes. I want to see my x-men (in particular) looking beautiful, or handsome (heck he drew cyclops so well sometimes he made me like the character even to look at), or both.

There's been some goddawful art in the x-books in recent years. Sure its great in some eyes, but in mine, there's been some awful awful work. I know what to expect from Land. And i admit to liking it from a posing, static imagery, perspective. That almost iconic Dark Phoenix image of his, is incredible, as well as almost iconic these days. The number of people who use it as a background, wallpaper or lock screen is amazing.

That the guy who traces&swipes?

The issue I have is that the poses and faces look like they have been traced from porn. They seem unnatural for the situation and distract my reading of the story. Kitty's mouth in that pic just looks wrong to me.

I've been reading the early Dixon issues of Birds of Prey and I quite like Land's art in that book. It certainly doesn't look traced to me and it's a perfectly fine style (nothing groundbreaking, but pleasant)

My problem is....even whilst tracing, his execution of perspective and proportion are often perplexing. It's one thing to intentionally draw disproportionate characters as your own style, but he's seemingly aiming for a more realistic appearance and misses the target more often than not.

anyone who traces porn is not worth my time

His work on birds of prey and nightwing was ok but i dont like how he draws faces in his xmen.

Endsong was gorgeous, just gorgeous.

Everyone does that.

If that is want you want to believe… I can't stop you. Just imagine if that was the go to answer for anything you express. Well you know, everyone does that, so...

Anything with him on it guarantees no support from me. Instant no.

It can't be unseen. I'm embarrassed for the guy, really.

What do you mean if it's what I want to believe? In the comic industry just about everyone has been guilty of swiping at one time. Todd McFarline, Scott Eaton, Rob Liefield, Roger Cruz, Alex Maleev, David Mack, Bryan Hitch, ect. Do you have the same problem with all of the other artists that do it? And I never even heard of Land swiping from other artists. I have only heard of him tracing over his own art and real life images.

What I mean is that you and I might just have very definitions of everyone and almost everyone. Is the entirety of comic artists to you, half a dozen names? Rhetorical question, and, yes, I have a similar criticism of all professional artists who plagiarize other artists. David Mack, Todd McFarlane, Rob Liefeld, I can remember specific examples, that I am critical of. The others, I could potentially see it, Bryan Hitch and say Mike Deodato Jr. I know are fond of implementing tracing, but if they are using their own photography/work then I don't mind… but if they aren't...

So I am both critical in the theory aspects and specifically if given reason to. I am not familiar with specific examples with all the artists you mentioned, but if given examples, my criticism would apply more specifically, than generally. I am sure if you so desired, you could find online examples of Land plagiarizing, you don't have to take my word for it.

These are comic book artists. They are paid to draw what the script calls for. It's not like it is their own artistic creation. At least not most of the time.

I couldn't find any examples of Land plagiarizing other artists on the internet. I looked it up before I state it the first time. Lots of examples of him tracing photos, and a few of him tracing his own art. Didn't find any of him tracing some else's art.

@o__o: I don't see how that addresses or is relevant to anything I expressed. You are personally fine with plagiarism because everyone does it? I aren't. If you have your own personal reasonings, to further justify or affirm your views, "oh but the artist just draws the what the script calls for, its not like" yadda yadda, thats fine, but you do not have to involve me, how I view art in comics differs. I am not going to try and change your stance.

I am not aware of some of your examples plagiarizing either, if I really wanted to know, I'd search, maybe if I didn't find any examples, I'd conclude the accusations were false, or maybe I also just didn't find any. I searched for Greg Land and plagiarism just now and found examples, but yeah the majority of search results tended to focus on tracing from photos (if not his own, then still actually plagiarism) and recycling his own art, I a sure you were being discerning. Plus hey, even if you did find examples, it doesn't matter right? Since everyone does it and its not like artists in comics artistically create, they just do what the script says.

That last bit is a little sarcastic, but not in the mocking sense, more of the, "I get this is your stance over this issue and you have your reasons, but my stance is obviously different and I have my own reasons" and so now what are you trying to communicate with me now?

@sc: The only thing that I tried to communicate with you is that you were bashing a artist for something that was extremely common.

@o__o said:

I don't view it as bashing no, criticizing, very different, and its not something I exclusively criticize Land for either. I also disagree about how common it is, but again, have no issues if you think it is.

Is there nothing in comics that you are critical of? If you are, is it fair to say you are just bashing? Individuals are not allowed to express themselves?

I don't know how you think that I ever implied anything that said you couldn't.

Yes, it makes the artist seem lazy. It is just something that I often see Greg Land bashed for, while everyone turns a blind eye to the dozens of other people in the industry who do it. I mean, if you saw a thread about Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Bob Kane, or Todd McFarline would you of went in and made the same critique?

@o__o: I agree and acknowledged you didt imply such a sentiment, it was a rhetorical question to help illustrate the issue and problem of so easily accusing others of bashing. Which is what you did to me. I ask you to imagine, if every time you expressed yourself, if someone felt the need to address you, because they asserted you were bashing. Or alternatively they accused you of blindly defending something. Imagine if my first reply to you was, well you are just blindly defending Land. Conversation would go no where.

Again, I know you aren't being literal, when you say everyone, but yes, if I saw a thread about other artists, plagiarizing, I would, and I have, (in the case of David Mack and a few others) criticized them as well. So I am not sure why you would imply otherwise. You already asked a similar question before to which I answered which went unaddressed. Also it could imply various meanings, I wouldn't personally label such practices as the sign of a lazy artist, so if you apply such an interpretation on to others, you may find a disconnect.

Or would you rather me reply something like, "Hey I get you. Everyone always only picks on Greg Land, and they never critic him, they unfairly bash and hate him, all the time, everyone. They never ever bash anyone else, even though we have examples of the other artists doing it, but not Greg Land, but it doesn't matter anyway, because everyone does it, and it doesn't matter anyway because they are just artists". If so, I apologize, thats just not my view here.

@sc: "Bashing" is a common term used for critiquing. As you can see, it is listed as the first definition of the word on the Urban Dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bashing So when I said you were "bashing" land it translates to you were "criticizing" Land.

This thread is not about a artist plagiarizing, it is about a artist doing a good job.

@o__o: The terms can be synonymous yes, but they can also vary and diverge, as in bashing translating to overly harsh, fierce, strong attacks. Hence why I prefer using the term criticizing or critiquing. If your use of the word bashing is intended to be more of the former than the latter, then cool. So then you were trying to communicate with me, the idea that I critiqued/bashed a writer for doing something other artists do.

Something I have acknowledged that yes, some other artists do, and pointed out, that I would and have also been critical towards. So with your point communicated to me, your continued replies exist for?

I know how threads work at CV, I enforce the rules and can contribute to their creation, my original comment spoke of strengths and weaknesses, positives and negatives, how Greg Land can have his moments, but also why his reputation can still be negative to many. For some reason, you decided to only hone in on that specific point, based on generalized sentiment you interpret from "everyone". its a point you can make independently without having to involve me.

@sc: That reply existed because you took issue with me using the term "bashing." If you don't want me do reply, then don't ask me questions.

@o__o: I didn't take issue, I just preferred using a word that better conveyed my personal stance, which we were discussing. We weren't discussing whether your criticisms were consistent across artists or so on. I am okay with you replying, I am less tolerant of new defenses being made for Land that aren't relevant to anything I said or address some generalization you hold, which you could just as easily make in an independent post.

Tracing as an artistic move doesn't bother me if it's done right, let's take Will Conrad and Mike Deodato for example. They trace celeb faces, but I think they do it with style and I can't possibly see anyone complain about it because of how good it can be like:

lol let's play a game - "guess the actor"

Now, with Land the problem isn't just tracing, it's the self plagiarism tracing of the same repeating images, postures, shapes, expressions and even whole panoramas/widespread pics which simply screams unprofessional laziness. So yeah, he deserves criticism for THIS matters, but all I say is that when he is at it, he has the talent and potential to be better. And since I happen to appreciate this "photorealistic" style so much I want him to be better. Remember, when Land debuted with this new style of his (at the beginning his style was different, more "generic" but also more "artistic" if you will) he became very famous, but it's his self plagiarism that became even more (in)famous ;))

@adamtrmm: You make good points and I agree with you on most of them. Land does have the talent but he's had more than enough time to get back to his roots and that he still gets hired tells me it's more because of his turn around time (obvious why it's good) and his just...easy art. It's difficult for me to give him (or Marvel) room because there are so, so, SOOOOO many good artists out there that would work day and night for the chance to be in a Big Two comic. It offends me as a fan.

@ms-lola:

I heard that writers/editors like to work with him because he is good with the dates.

I agree that he's too repetitive STILL to really appreciate his art, if he can do batter, he has no excuses to not :p About other artists, the art in Marvel is so inconsistent these days it's kind of strange. Ok, I get what happened with Gold, but Blue? They announced Jorge Molina, how many issues are there with him? Less than half. And who's replacing him? Some filler artists. This is cold, but this is what they are. Having consistent and quality, even if rotating art, is apparently impossible now. So, maybe there were many good artists, but I can't say they still are there.

I hear you about Marvel and the artists they hire. And then don't. Then do. It's a mess. That's what I meant about there being so many artists out there that they can hire, they just don't. It's a mystery.

I'm not reading much Marvel, ever since I gave up on the X-Men. It's still a mess, even with the supposed twists coming up. Until it's constant, story AND artwise, they won't get me back. I'll just cruise threads like this, haha, and get my X-Men jollies that way.

Land's name is not mentioned among the alleged tracers on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swipe_(comics)

There are quit a few people who were infamous for tracing who are missing from that list.