The X-Men are a superhero team of mutants founded by Professor Charles Xavier. They are dedicated to helping fellow mutants and sworn to protect a world that fears and hates them.
I see a lot of discussion about jean being the most power psychic around, but then when exodus is brought up, she seems to pale in comparison to him, both in combat feats and in their actual encounter. So what is the consensus here?
well about the encounter, i'm assuming you mean the one on asteroid M? It wasn't really a straight up battle, i doubt she expected anything of the sort to happen. Also, i don't think she was at her peak back then
@pyrofn: what was the second time around? Also, ive seen a number of people use that very instance of emma stalemating/beating him as an argument for both exodus vs jean and emma vs jean haha >.< to be fair, jean is a very high tier jobber, surpassed only by rachel probably lol
The writer and story determine who is the most powerful at that time. If the plot dictates Exodus to win in order to move things forward, he will. If the writer favors Jean to be the victor, she will.
We fans like to compare past feats and argue who had better showings but honestly, most of us realize that in a medium where a single storyline can have multiple writers inconsistencies are going to happen as the plot necessitates. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.
Looking at you IvX 6.
Based on past showings, without the PF, Jean is a top tier psychic as is Exodus. It could go either way.
Emma never defeated Exodus IIRC, she stalemated him telepathically to distract him while Dust performed a direct attack on his internal organs. Which is kind of PISish because Carey also wrote him to be spatially aware when engaged in TP battle with Xavier and being a telekinetic on level that allowed him to rearrange Xavier's brain down to molecular level.
Jean was in the weak 90s stage the two times she encountered him. This is around a time she acknowledged that she was holding back because she was scared people would be worried about her becoming the Phoenix, before she stopped holding back and had storm, cable, Scott, and wolverine worried about her going Phoenix mode.
And the first time, Exodus was holding luna hostage, quicksilver, Scarlet witch, Crystal and Jean didn't attack him because of this, so that doesn't show him being stronger, and even then, Jean read all his weakness and sent them to Xavier, allowing Charles to stop Exodus.
The second time, Scott and Jean were suddenly teleported onto asteroid m while they were driving, Jean saw Exodus and entered his mind to ask him what was going onand he kicked her out, with Jean saying he was stronger than she thought.
These were times before Jean defeated Phoenix Emma frost, An omnipath Gamemaster, started breaking down psychic shields easily, Astral project to another universe, make Xavier scared of burning by just being in her mind, manhandle apocalypse.
The two are hard to scale against each other, let's just leave it at that, besides, I don't agree with Jean being the strongest, she's just one of the strongest and most skilled. I would just put her in the same Tier with Xavier, Emma, Rachel, Exodus, but lower than Cable and Nate grey
Without morals or operating near the peak of her potential/powerset, she should be able to take out Exodus in a good fight. Generally, because her powerset, she tends to get gimped in these types of encounters until the story calls for it to give other X-Men a chance to shine.
It's really just a case of many of the more powerful X-Men being written to be less powerful in order to depict a traditional fight, but if a writer wanted to get unconventional, a lot of these fights would not unfold in the traditional superhero punchfest. In a Jean v. Exodus fight, it would really be a case of who can get past the other's shield and psi attacks to either pulverize the others bones or achieve a knock out.
@marvelfan1992: If jobbing was an excuse for not taking a characters feats into account, then no character including the Living Tribunal would have any leg to stand in these debates. We are looking at them at their best before their worst. As far as I'm concerned Jean has more evidence for beating Exodus than Exodus winning considering the circumstances of Exodus victories and the number of times Jean has gotten past individuals with incredibly tough psychic defenses.
@del_torro: I wouldn't say she is below Nate and Cable. True Cable has potential, but as far as I know, he is still an alpha level mutant. Nate is an interesting case. Yes, he is an omega level with the most ridiculous feats for any normal psychic. Rachel basically took every step her mother made, without going Dark Phoenix, but only due to the Phoenix. Jean is probably one of the most underrated. Yes, I said it. Granted she is well loved, but there is a lot underestimation when they compare her to her children, when that very potential they inherited originates from Jean.
Had she not died, who knows what she would have been capable of. Taking the Phoenix down is not easy and no one has done it as successfully as Jean Grey, with exception of maybe Hope Summers (Rachel never really took down the Phoenix since it was more of a mutual partnership). Jean breaking down impossible defenses, having immense skill, and unlimited potential are all some of the reasons I would dispute the statement saying Jean is a lower tier than her children amongst the psi order.
Morrison run jean wins this. Her tp and tk have gone way powerful. She'd be munching chips while she takes exodus down.
in his defense, he was fighting the whole x-men team on the physical plane at the same time wasn't he? wouldn't that make it an uneven battle. And focus is one of the most vital aspects in using TP
That's laughable. Not only Rachel wasn't able to put Exodus down in JUST a telepathic battle, it took all of her concentration to do so, all while Exodus was ALSO successfully fighting Rogue, Cannonball, Frenzy, Iceman, Wolverine and Gambit. And that with one of his powers already absorbed by Rogue and him admitting to hold back. I think that pretty much confirms there's a significant gap between the two when Exodus can stalemate Rachel where she puts her full effort, as he himself can also keep multitasking against a pretty stacked team all while holding back and not being even at his full power.
That's how it was about to end before Hope attacked him from behind. Does he look defeated?:
@mcklayn: Jean most certainly does not need the Phoenix to be a match or Exodus. Unlike Rachel and Emma, she has both power and skill on her side that outranks the both of them, as well as Exodus. That is all without Phoenix.
@adamtrmm: i think solo villains always have an edge on hero groups , story-wise at least. it makes the stories longer and would appear more interesting on panels.
@adamtrmm: i think solo villains always have an edge on hero groups , story-wise at least. it makes the stories longer and would appear more interesting on panels.
Indeed. And a solo villain of a team group would automatically make him more powerful than individual members.
@ursaber: but if you put him in a team on team battle, he would still be taking on an a weaker character and writers would make it seem like he's having a hard time. I think that is how comics stories are basically formulated
Well Jean hasn't been present for close to 12 years, so her feats are kind of of outdated and may not seem impressive with the current day twlepaths, but apart from being a planetary level telepath that can Astral project to other dimensions, she's been able to outperform planetary level telepaths like Xavier (doing things he's claimed are impossible) and Xenmu (a being who can control billions of minds but has trouble entering hulk mind, while Jean has been using telepathy on hulk since she was a kid). She went toe to toe against Onslaught on the Astral plain and took attacks from him with minimal damage, has a psi resiliency feat of being shown the whole universe and knowledge of it telepathically by The stranger (this had the juggernaut rolling on the ground crying and hold his head), during the 12,she was still able to enter apocalypse mind while he was amped and was resisting his reality warping and mental influence, and during Revolution was able to dominate apocalypse and rip his essence out of Scott.
She beat Gamemaster (a omnipath so powerful he's connected to all the minds on the planet at all times) on the Astral plain and was able to knock down Phoenix empowered Emma frost with a psiblast, beat Psylocke twice (though this was before Psylocke upgrades, and Jean was weaker back then too), helped Psylocke free her mind from the shadow king.
The fact that other Jean clones or time distance versions like Tean Jean, Xorna Jean, and Madelyne Pryor ar strong enough to hang with nate grey, Emma frost, selene, Phoenix Quentin, while all being less skilled than Jean who has the same omega Level potential should be an indicator that Jean, when not holding back, is an high ranked telepath.
Alas, modern day feats of Rachel, Exodus, Emma, Madelyne and Xavier are a bit more impressive, so it's hard to compare her to them and the amps they've gotten. Hopefully, in generations, when she teams up with Teen Jean, we'll get some impressive feasts from her.
3 best telepaths not named Jean are Xavier Emma and Rachel.
Emma stalemated him.
Xavier flatout beat him.
Rachel who is stronger then both, has training from both and a mind dump from Xavier is able to shut him and all his powers down completely. BUT it takes time and interference from 2 teams worth of X-Men and a mind battle across 4 different mental levels...
3 best telepaths not named Jean are Xavier Emma and Rachel.
Emma stalemated him.
Xavier flatout beat him.
Rachel who is stronger then both, has training from both and a mind dump from Xavier is able to shut him and all his powers down completely. BUT it takes time and interference from 2 teams worth of X-Men and a mind battle across 4 different mental levels...
What does this mean?
this is probably how crackheads feel about crack lmao . comparing power levels/A vs B comparisons, you know its nothing but BS and a disaster waiting to happen that will ruin your life, but you keep at it anyway loool (exaggeration to the highest degree, but you get my point)
@koays: That or writers need better research material. At least she was successful. If I had a theory on why it tool Rachel so long, I would think that maybe she had not been able to practice the knowledge from the mind dump until that moment, but that could be false and downloading knowledge doesn't work that way, as Jean in Uncanny X-Men First Class shows the prowess of two martial artist by downloading their training once. XD
@pyrofn: Pfft...Im pretty sure the same writer wrote all 3 confrontations across a 8 year period.
Regardless though my opinon has remained for a while that it depends on the Psychics approach to battle. Exodus and Emma throw psychic attacks memories and trauma at people, Jean and Xavier have physical battles on the psi plane. While the Rachels Cables and Nate Greys prefer to just throw raw power and emotion at people.
Provided Rachel tried to shut him down like Emma did and he blocked each of her attempts with a battle on the psi plane till they were having a battle at 3 different mental levels it would make sense that she wasnt able to drop him outright or perform better since he just had to defend himself.
Whereas i think that if she had tried to all out attack and overwhelm his mind she wouldve ended up in a situation like Xavier where they wouldve sent waves of power flying off for miles trying to hurl attacks at eachother.
i think solo villains always have an edge on hero groups , story-wise at least. it makes the stories longer and would appear more interesting on panels.
Indeed. And a solo villain of a team group would automatically make him more powerful than individual members.
Yes, but he still said he was holding back. Regardless, that was a great showing of his power, the best since Bloodties so I'm loving it :)
3 best telepaths not named Jean are Xavier Emma and Rachel.
Emma stalemated him.
Xavier flatout beat him.
Rachel who is stronger then both, has training from both and a mind dump from Xavier is able to shut him and all his powers down completely. BUT it takes time and interference from 2 teams worth of X-Men and a mind battle across 4 different mental levels...
What does this mean?
Not really that radical. Xavier beat him the same way Mags beat him - he wasn't really cutting lose and wanted both lead him, that's a character trait. Emma's part is PISish and I can explain why - two instances both written by Carey, this one and Xavier's yet in one he's somehow completely occupied by just Emma's telepathy so that Dust can take him out physically, and in other one with Xavier, he shows molecular level TK, which is more than enough to detect Dust, and IS aware of his surroundings when battling Xavier telepathically. Plot convenience right here is obvious.
But Rachel more powerful than Xavier? I mean, come on... Not even love can make you so.............................................. lolz
@adamtrmm: Eh. I disagree with the Emma thing mostly because the confrontaion specifically notes that shes distracting him. So unless you believe that there is 100% zero chance that Emma could possess the skill and power to distract him from detecting Dust if that was her only goal its quite plausible. Especially since his very next confrontation he erects a complete psi barrier that would especially protect from similar interference.
Rachel being stronger then Xavier. Hell yea. Ill say it with the pride of a loyal husband
But that's exactly what I said - all of a sudden, it was possible to wholly occupy Exodus with juts telepathy when plenty other times, even by Carey himself, he was able to multitask over it as well. Which is more consistent I ask you, and which screams PIS?
Another thing possible though, Carey might've considered Emma probably the most credible telepath around since he had her mindF Xavier so hard it took two issues IIRC lol so that maybe additional factor to consider.
Especially since his very next confrontation he erects a complete psi barrier that would especially protect from similar interference.
Remind me please...
Rachel being stronger then Xavier. Hell yea. Ill say it with the pride of a loyal husband
I don't want to deconstruct your authority exposing the evident bias but you need to be careful with these postulates, my friend.
But that's exactly what I said - all of a sudden, it was possible to wholly occupy Exodus with juts telepathy when plenty other times, even by Carey himself, he was able to multitask over it as well. Which is more consistent I ask you, and which screams PIS?
Another thing possible though, Carey might've considered Emma probably the most credible telepath around since he had her mindF Xavier so hard it took two issues IIRC lol so that maybe additional factor to consider.
Especially since his very next confrontation he erects a complete psi barrier that would especially protect from similar interference.
Remind me please...
Rachel being stronger then Xavier. Hell yea. Ill say it with the pride of a loyal husband
I don't want to deconstruct your authority exposing the evident bias but you need to be careful with these postulates, my friend.
(a spoilerblock so that no one will see!!)
http://imgur.com/a/f98dx
i mean she could have just thrown something at him, or throw him at a wall, with TK, but sure go ahead and get into a TP battle with him. Should have made her codename Jobber instead of Prestige
Power levels generally are arbitrary and done to suit the writer, much like everything else in comics. Because of this I no longer consider anything 'canon', anything I like happened, anything I don't, didn't, and every character is exactly as powerful as I think they ought to be. Not worrying about the wild hares, jobbing, one-off gimmicks and plot induced stupidity from the corporate monkeys that produce comics saves you a lot of grief.
That being said, in MY Marvel Universe Exodus is something of a demigod, and can waste most people (including telepaths), but a fully amped Cable or a Phoenix-y Jean would beat him. Normal Marvel Girl type of Jean, though, gets wasted.
i mean she could have just thrown something at him, or throw him at a wall, with TK, but sure go ahead and get into a TP battle with him. Should have made her codename Jobber instead of Prestige
Don't forget that's the guy who helped to hold back Dark Phoenix back in the day, so him pulling top of the top class TP extravaganza is more than sufficient. I mean, besides getting back at Exodus and making him a merit, it gets consistent powerful telepaths can overwhelm her quite well. It's not about Ray losing you know ;)
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