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    X-Men

    Team » X-Men appears in 13428 issues.

    The X-Men are a superhero team of mutants founded by Professor Charles Xavier. They are dedicated to helping fellow mutants and sworn to protect a world that fears and hates them.

    Could Wolverine stay dead?

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    william300

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    So, Wolverine has been dead for a little while now, and his daughter/clone will be taking up his mantle after Secret Wars, now such things are almost never permanent. Heroes almost always come back and their identities returned, but the Wolverine identity will be in an interesting place, though Laura will be calling herself Wolverine, Marvel has already brought in another version of Logan to replace the original, Old Man Logan, while still letting Laura keep the Wolverine name. So with Laura using his mantle, and his older counterpart sticking around, do you think classic Wolverine may stay dead?

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    Impervious

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    He won't stay dead. He's too popular to do so.

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    Koays

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    For at least another year. But think about Batman's death, Cap's death and Superman's death. This isn't really any different from things done during their absence. He'll return when it's most epic so we can see the pay off.

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    william300

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    @koays: But theres a difference. Marvel has more less already brought Logan back by bringing in Old Man Logan.

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    cajunpirate

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    Not if Disney can get back the X-Men (and FF) rights. My guess would be that Wolverine would come back to life, the X-Men would get off the moon, and the Fantastic Four would become a team again.

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    Koays

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    @koays: But theres a difference. Marvel has more less already brought Logan back by bringing in Old Man Logan.

    Not necessarily. If you recall there was a similar thing with AoA Kurt who was hanging around for a while. And even in situations where things could naturally evolve (Dick Grayson becoming Batman) the companies tend to revert back to status quo or not stray to far from it. It depends in large part how the Marvel universe looks after Secret Wars, but the fact remains that Old Man Logan or X-23 joining an Avengers team or showing up in a team up book doesn't have the same weight or marketability that a month of Wolverine covers has when connected to his comeback. If this were Cyclops, or any of other O5 sure...but it's Wolverine...he's arguably the most recognizeable character Marvel has ever had next to Spider-man

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    McFlicky

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    I hope it's permanent. I like x 23 more than logan. And I doubt they'll bring back 616 wolverine because they are using old man logan after secret wars.

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    william300

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    @koays: Yea, I'm probably being hopeful. They'll probably end up doing to X23 what they did to Bucky.

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    deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3

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    I still doubt it. They'll milk Old Man Logan and X-23 for all their worth and then bring Wolvie back.

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    Galerion

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    #10  Edited By Galerion

    I doubt it.

    That won't stop me from still enjoying all the new X-23 stories that are to come though. Especially with her getting a solo book once again. The end of the year can't come soon enough.

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    HAWK2916

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    I think an opportunity is being missed here big time.

    In thinking about Old Man Logan... I mean did they really kill off Wolverine him just to bring in a AU version so soon after his death? Kinda sick of Marvel forcing the movie franchise stuff and character involvement in the X-Men. You'd think they'd give us a couple years of straight-up X-Men especially after a soft reboot.

    And really with the whole post-sw thing the most interesting part about this is that Secret Wars was the perfect opportunity to bring back Adult Jean without have a ludicrous explanation for it and they didn't. I guess Bendis' Jean stopped this from happening. We also could have gotten Professor X and Wolverine back along with the great villains the Xmen had in the past that were allowed to be killed off or repowered.

    Huge missed opportunity here that would have almost certainly made more of the fandom happy

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    BaBaBoom

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    I wish he would stay dead, along with OML, let Laura be Wolverine. I had enough of Wolverine being on every book and, if they are bringing Wolverine back, make sure they brought back the Wolverine we loved not the fucked up version that came out of Schism.

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    HAWK2916

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    @bababoom: I agree with bringing back the right version. And only in one book. I don't like that Wolverine like Thor has become some mantle to be passed on. It should be a unique character

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    william300

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    I'm probably one of the few people who liked Wolverine's development after Schism. I thought it was great seeing him step up and develop into a true hero and deciding not to be a dark anti hero anymore. I didn't didn't buy him becoming school headmaster at first but it grew on me.

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    deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3

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    @william300: He was arguably at his darkest post-schism: leading a mutant kill squad, killing kid apocalypse, killing his own son etc. The funny part being that he was a headmaster of a school during all of this, and he was even hypocritical enough to lecture/shame Cyclops over killing Xavier -- at least Scott was possessed when he murdered.

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    HAWK2916

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    @sprior93: It was very hypocritical. Schism would have been better and more believable if Storm and Beast had lead it.

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    william300

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    @sprior93: that was the point of the the X-FORCE stories that took place during his headmaster days, he learned that death and revenge doesn't solve anything. It's why at the end of the run he teaches Evan that revenge isn't the answer and chooses to disband the team, it was all part of his development as a teacher. It was all part of his story, having him step away from that lifestyle, and try to help other mutants escape and stay away from the chain of death and revenge which ultimately killed him. Also, I have to disagree on him being at his darkest, Logan has always been going on black ops missions when not with the X-MEN. Also, he was against killing that child, Fantomex executed him when Logan had decided to spare him. And theres a big difference between killing villains to protect the innocent, and executing the founder of the X-MEN who has dedicated his life to teaching world peace (was he a perfect man? no, he did bad things, but he did them so others wouldn't have to).

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    HAWK2916

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    #18  Edited By HAWK2916

    Cyclops was possessed. Why is it so hard for people to get that? And why do people think that change is always progress and development? Sometimes things change and its not for the better. Logan was written so hypocritical that they had to kill him off. It was ridiculous. Its one thing to have development and feel that death is not the answer and all, but to turn around and lecture other grown people is where it goes off the rails. I could see wanting to save the younger generation from that path and in fact walking it yourself so that they don't have too. But lecturing Scott and others like he was lilly white and gods gift was silly. He wasn't being written well and there wasn't much else to do with him so they killed him off. Just like I hope the REAL Jean Grey comes back one day, I hope the REAL Wolverine does too. What we got during and after Schism was a cheap caricature

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    william300

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    @hawk2916: Cyclops wasn't fully possessed, it has even been stated in the books. Phoenix reacts to the emotions and thoughts of it's host, it wen't dark, because Cyclops wen't dark, it killed Xavier because Cyclops wanted to. It's been shown time and time again that that's how the Phoenix works. And I disagree on Wolverine, I've loved how he was written.

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    HopesummersFORtheFUTURE

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    @koays said:

    For at least another year. But think about Batman's death, Cap's death and Superman's death. This isn't really any different from things done during their absence. He'll return when it's most epic so we can see the pay off.

    u forgot spider-man!!!!!! :P

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    kcomicfan

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    He could because they introduced Old man Logan into the main universe. but I hope he does not, I want the original to return.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @koays said:
    @william300 said:

    @koays: But theres a difference. Marvel has more less already brought Logan back by bringing in Old Man Logan.

    Not necessarily. If you recall there was a similar thing with AoA Kurt who was hanging around for a while. And even in situations where things could naturally evolve (Dick Grayson becoming Batman) the companies tend to revert back to status quo or not stray to far from it. It depends in large part how the Marvel universe looks after Secret Wars, but the fact remains that Old Man Logan or X-23 joining an Avengers team or showing up in a team up book doesn't have the same weight or marketability that a month of Wolverine covers has when connected to his comeback. If this were Cyclops, or any of other O5 sure...but it's Wolverine...he's arguably the most recognizeable character Marvel has ever had next to Spider-man

    AoA Nightcrawler is not a good example; by design he's meant to be everything that the classic version is not.

    Old man Logan is meant to be the same character, just older. And considering that Wolverine's already meant to be older than everyone else, the only addition to this is the backstory of his future past, something lots of X-men have had. His backstory is still that he was the same Wolverine, just one who didn't die.

    Yeah, that he even exists creates the issue that he's from another parallel world, but in the world he's from, him still being alive meant all the other X-men were dead. So keeping him dead and having this haunted, older version is still arguably the best of both worlds.

    anyway, you are right, they will bring him back eventually for all the reasons you stated (which is just more evidence that he is the same character, right?), but that AoA Nightcrawler example just really doesn't apply here.

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    Koays

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    @oldnightcrawler: Yea it's rough as a fit mostly because the two Kurts were never even remotely the same personality wise...but when you look at how OML differs from current Logan, in his school, his avengers role, his dynamic with Cyclops that shaped the course of the X-Men for a good long while; you see that these too aren't the same guy at all. I mean sure you can retcon that into OML's backstory due to its vagueness, but he's essentially a completely different character who, like AoA kurt, only makes sense in this role because of who's on his current line up.

    What I meant was neither of them could fufill the 616 persons role, but it could've been said at the time that Marvel now has a cooler more aggressive version of Nightcrawler that all Kurts friends can interact with, so why bring back the old one. Which is sort of the reaction here

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    oldnightcrawler

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    #24  Edited By oldnightcrawler

    @koays said:

    @oldnightcrawler: Yea it's rough as a fit mostly because the two Kurts were never even remotely the same personality wise...but when you look at how OML differs from current Logan, in his school, his avengers role, his dynamic with Cyclops that shaped the course of the X-Men for a good long while; you see that these too aren't the same guy at all. I mean sure you can retcon that into OML's backstory due to its vagueness, but he's essentially a completely different character who, like AoA kurt, only makes sense in this role because of who's on his current line up.

    yeah, I was never of the camp that Regenesis-era Wolverine was any different than the classic version. Not as well written overall, but still with essentially the same motivation that always made sense to his character arc. I know not everyone sees it that way, but I personally don't see any difference between the Wolverine that became OML and the one that was around this whole time: both make sense in regards to the classic version, and even to each other.

    Even if you don't see it that way, clearly they are two branches off of the classic character, whereas AoA Nightcrawler was essentially different by design, with none of the original's backstory or motivation.

    What I meant was neither of them could fufill the 616 persons role, but it could've been said at the time that Marvel now has a cooler more aggressive version of Nightcrawler that all Kurts friends can interact with, so why bring back the old one. Which is sort of the reaction here

    Fans of classic Wolverine are just as likely to be fans of OML; to me it seems fans of AoA Nightcrawler (is there such a thing?) must have never appreciated the classic to begin with.

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    graysonofgotham

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    I hope they tell some cool stories while he is gone but I think and really want real Wolverine back at some point. I'd love to see this new Sabertooh and real Wolverine interact. Same with Old Man Logan and real Logan. It would just be really cool to see the interactions. I also can't wait until Captain America is young and back as Cap again. I just think some characters like Wolverine and Captain America are best as themselves and not legacy characters. X-23 and Falcon are awesome and the names hurt them more than help. I'd rather see X-23 get a big push/solo book on her own. Same with Falcon. Falcon/X-23 leading the Avengers or X-Men Under another heroes name seems less meaningful than if it happened under their own code names.

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    Koays

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    @oldnightcrawler: I kind of agree that their the same motivation wise. With this arguably being just the other side of his basic character being built upon the same way his "do The bad things that need to be done" side was explored in his X-Force period. I just feel OML doesn't really have as many or any real connection to these characters and who theyre supposed to be other then a somewhat over lookable affiliation with people similar to them. It really seems like a nitpick the more I think about it especially given how the O5 are far more conflict causing examples of this, but essential he has a similar personality but if he's so disconnected from the recent events in Logans life and his connection to them and his peers that it can't impact him then I just can't reconsile that as the same guy. Its like how the ultimate versions of the X-Men act similar enough that Xavier, Cyclops or even Kitty could replace their 616 counter parts...but it still wouldn't put them in the point in their life that they were at even if it is a similar character. So to me it sort of feels the same as just dropping some random person in who isn't this person and is only interesting because he looks like this person which AoA is just a far more blatant example of it.

    Fans of 616 Wolverine may be able to accept it easier, and perhaps because I've been so indifferent to him accept where he plays into other things it bothers me more. But I look at it as "You have to not like anything about current Wolverine to like this"

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @koays said:

    @oldnightcrawler: I kind of agree that their the same motivation wise. With this arguably being just the other side of his basic character being built upon the same way his "do The bad things that need to be done" side was explored in his X-Force period. I just feel OML doesn't really have as many or any real connection to these characters and who theyre supposed to be other then a somewhat over lookable affiliation with people similar to them. It really seems like a nitpick the more I think about it especially given how the O5 are far more conflict causing examples of this, but essential he has a similar personality but if he's so disconnected from the recent events in Logans life and his connection to them and his peers that it can't impact him then I just can't reconsile that as the same guy.

    I actually think the O5 are a good way to understand what OML's perspective on these characters would be. Consider how characters like Beast and Cyclops reacted to them when they arrived, especially Jean; it seems to me that this is how OML would see all of the X-men, as old friends he thought he'd never see again, even if they aren't quite how he remembers them, even if they've been through things he doesn't remember, it still seems he'd see them as the X-men he knew.

    Its like how the ultimate versions of the X-Men act similar enough that Xavier, Cyclops or even Kitty could replace their 616 counter parts...but it still wouldn't put them in the point in their life that they were at even if it is a similar character. So to me it sort of feels the same as just dropping some random person in who isn't this person and is only interesting because he looks like this person which AoA is just a far more blatant example of it.

    I don't really think that's a great example either, mostly because to me the Ultimate X-men were never much like the classic versions. They may not have been as purposefully distinct as the AoA versions, but they did exist to be versions who did things the classic versions wouldn't have.

    Continuity and recent events aside, to me OML reads as a future version of Claremont's Wolverine, a natural outcome of that character's arc, given his future past. When I read AoA or Ultimate Wolverine, I think of a character with a different backstory, but when I read OML, I see a potential fate of the Wolverine. Simply, he may be from an alternate future, but to me it seems he shares the same past.

    Because nothing about his character seems out of step with what the classic version would do in the same situation, I read him as having the same backstory, and thus can easily assume that his X-men were the ones I'd known all along.

    Fans of 616 Wolverine may be able to accept it easier, and perhaps because I've been so indifferent to him accept where he plays into other things it bothers me more. But I look at it as "You have to not like anything about current Wolverine to like this"

    current Wolverine? currently, even being dead hasn't kept him from being in several stories that are all happening simultaneously -in the same world. Of all those Wolverines, OML is by far the most like the classic version as far as I've seen.

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    HAWK2916

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    I would almost put OML in the same class as Bishop or Rachel Grey basically being an AU or a possible future version. Its OK I guess though the Old Man Logan moniker gets a bit old. I just don't see the sense in killing off the original to turn around and bring a version back in a few weeks or months and then invert his greatest enemy in Sabertooth to try and push him as a replacement. Why? Most fans know usually comic deaths don't stick so why bother with this played out tactic. Just bring the real thing back. Its the same issue with Jean Grey.

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