Can Wolverine's claws cut through Emma's diamond skin?

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Timandm

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#51  Edited By Timandm
@Mainline: 1. I haven't insulted you, I've asked how can an engineer overlook the fact that Wolverine is not an inelastic object. 
 
Let's see... Are you really an engineer?      Yep.  That's an insult...
 
2. That's impressive, but shouldn't basic kinesthetics and practical engineering principles reveal that Wolverine is not a ball on Newton's Cradle but something that will undoubtedly give? 
 
Well, since Kinesthetics is the ability to feel the body moving....and it is NOT the study of wolverine...  No, not really...
However, since I ALREADY SAID HIS FLESH CAN DEFORM BUT HIS SKELETON CANNOT, I don't see how your question is even relevant....

- You clearly missed or are intentionally IGNORING the fact that I was pointing out that his CLAW (NOT WOLVERINE) was not deformable...    THERE IS NO DEFORMATION OF THE CLAW.... How much simpler and clearer can I  state that?  If he used a sword of steel the blade could deform.  His claw can't...
 
Do you HONESTLY not get that his claws are not deformable?  Are you intentionally looking at his entire body so that you can DELIBERATELY ignore my point?  That his claw is not deformable?  Have I said 'his claw is not deformable' enough for you to notice?  
 
Do I really need to say, AGAIN, that his ENTIRE SKELETON is fused with adamantium.  Do I really need to say AGAIN that his FLESH can deform but his skeleton cannot?  Can you honestly not see that???? 

 1. What does combat training have to do with his ability to cut? 
 
Really???  Put a sword in the hand of someone trained to use it and see if they can slice through a bamboo tree about 4 inches thick.... No, not likely, and not without many attempt...
                     Now, put that sword in the hands of someone who has mastered it's use... They slice through the bamboo tree   in one clean swipe...
 
What does combat training have to do with the ability to cut?  EVERY - FREAKING - THING
 
Or perhaps you could write an article explaining why training with the sword, to learn how to cut your enemy with it, is a pointless endeavor.  Because training has nothing to do with the ability to cut....
 
ALSO...  Have you forgotten what you said?   Here, let me paste your own words here for you:
 
OP is presenting a combat-like situation where Wolverine is trying to use his claws martially.  To get that ninja-like cut, that thrusting plunge, etc.  Not to simply club Emma with his claws.
 
What does training have to do with the ability to cut????  Have you forgotten your OWN point that this is a COMBAT SITUATION?   See where YOU wrote "NINJA-LIKE CUT"?   What does training have to do with it????  Are you suggesting one does not have to train to become a Ninja?
Wolverine's training has given him the skills that a warrior needs...  How is that not relevant???

2b. I'm sorry, but hours ago you didn't even know bullets were typically made of lead!  You're missing a fundamental aspect to your hardness analysis...
 
I didn't know that MOST bullets were made of lead... That's true... That doesn't change the laws of physics... and you are STILL IGNORING that bullets are made HARDER to pierce ARMOR...  If you refuse to even acknowledge that, than this is all pointless...  
 
You keep insulting/attacking my knowledge of physics and engineering...  It sounds like you might have taken a few classes... What exactly is your degree in here?   
I work on projects where we have to measure the force of a single protein-protein bonding event... I know physics... I'm familiar with the math... If you're a freshmen in college who hasn't even finished differential equations, then there's NO WAY I could explain the principles involved here...
I've given the broad concepts... I've even done a little simple math to show the amount of force Wolverine can strike with...
 
 4a. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, you realize by deformation I mean force absorption, right? 
Deformation is NOT force absorption... If you believe it is, then you honestly don't understand deformation...
 
Deformation is the CHANGE IN SHAPE of a substance as the result of the application of pressure... Okay, clearly you're NOT an engineer and I cannot fathom you've actually studied engineering principles if you do not know this... This is one of the most FUNDAMENTAL concepts one learns when they FIRST study mechanics...  How can you determine what is and is not a non-newtonian fluid if you do not know what deformation is???
 
Also, " I " was the one who first brought up deformation... What " I " meant by deformation was change in shape as the result of pressure... Logan's claws will NOT change shape as the result of the application of pressure, ergo, they are NOT deformable...  Since his claws will not deform, NO FORCE can be lost in the deformation of his claws... 
 
4b. Oye.  You don't measure cutting force with PSI, 

sigh... YOU gave me the amount of FORCE... YOU DID.... You forgot?  REALLY?  You forgot that you said Logan could hit with two tons of force... REALLY????  YOU FORGOT?  um... okay...
 
and I never said 'cutting force'  I merely calculated the force delivered by his claw as opposed to his fist...  But... I'm getting the impression you honestly don't get it.  Do you?  I noticed you didn't even acknowledge the force applied by his blade.  You don't understand the difference do you?  I could draw a picture if you like...  In fact, I think I'll do that right quick...
 
No Caption Provided
I just threw this together in paint so it's not exactly a work of art...  But it makes the point.  Let's say each elephant weighs 10,000 lbs...  Gravity is pulling them down, and there mass means theres 10000 pounds of force being applied to whatever surface area they are standing on.
 
The first elephant is standing on a cylinder.  The force from his weight is being distributed throughout the circular surface area of the bottom of the cylinder...  To keep the math simple, lets PRETEND the surface area on the face of the cylinder is 10,000 square inches...  That means there's 10,000 lbs of pressure being applied to 10,000 square inches of surface area.  So, the resulting force would be 10,000 lbs / 10,0000 square inches  or   1 lb/ sq. in.  
 
The second elephant weighs the same, but the surface area (of the object he's standing on) that is making contact with the ground is much much smaller.  Let's say it's 1 square inch.
That means means there's 10,000 lbs of pressure being applied to 1 square inch of surface area.  So, the resulting force would be 10,000 lbs / 1 square inch....  
 
The reduction in surface area increases the FORCE APPLIED dramatically.   It is the same when you take the force of a punch and deliver it through a thin blade.  I don't know that I can make this any simpler.... If you can't see this, then you shouldn't bother talking about engineering principles because you can't even understand a very VERY simple concept of physics... That force is inversely proportional to surface area...It's simple math...
 
1: Can Logan easily hit Emma anywhere he wants to.. Yes....
 
2: Are his blades capable of slicing or shattering her diamond form... Of COURSE....
 
3: Can he strike with enough force?  Well, I've already done the math...
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#52  Edited By Hizang

I would say yes, but only if he was using a huge amount of force behind his claws.

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HexThis

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#53  Edited By HexThis

Oh gawd, why must Logan be able to cut her in her diamond form? Does he not have enough feats or something? Expanding on that, aren't there more than a few ways some of his abilities are contradictory to physics? The strength of adamantium is far more improbable and, much like Colossus' plating, isn't Emma's diamond form organic? As in, not really diamond but of some resemblance to it? 
 
Has anyone also pointed out that she survived this?

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Genosha was reduced to rubble and EVERYONE died but Emma and Polaris I believe.
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roadbuster

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#54  Edited By roadbuster
@Timandm:  
 
Going to renumber since non-sequential numbers is not very engineering-like. 

1. Checking your credentials isn't an insult if you misapply engineering principles like pressure, cutting force, inelasticity, etc. 
 
2. The strength of any given martial position Wolverine may assume is weaker than 440 GPa by several order of magnitudes.  The inelasticity of his skeleton is irrelevant since it is up to his humanoid strength to maintain the pose, strike, or what not.  If Wolverine swings his arm, the arm can withstand infinite pressure, but the strength of his position can't.  Even if Wolverine was a perfectly rigid object throughout, the maximum force he could bring to bear would be his own mass, which is still nowhere near the necessary 440 Giga Pascals necessary to compress diamond, say nothing of 4-inches thick of diamond.  This should be obvious to an engineer.  A structure is only as strong as its weakest point and Wolverine's ability to generate or sustain compressive force is several orders of magnitude below what's necessary to cut (not simply affect) diamond. 
 
3. A "ninja-like cut" is a martial result not a martial technique.  The OP, likely, wants to know if Wolverine's claws can cut, slice, or thrust through Emma in a martial situation.  The only relevance to technique here is that we can exclude diamond cutting techniques such as grinding, sawing, or shattering (since claws are unnecessary to accomplish the latter).  You're confused if you think Wolverine's training is relevant to that analysis. 
 
4.  If you know physics then you know the basics of Newton's 3rd Law.  The hardness of the gun matters more than the hardness of the bullet.  The gun here is Wolverine's inability to exert forces or pressures which can compress or deform diamond.  At that point, the hardness of his tool is completely irrelevant.  You intuited this yourself by saying a six year old couldn't slash through a copper door... but then you thought a man might.  I don't think it should surprise you that a 4-18 inches of solid diamond might be a might beyond what any humanoid can generate in terms of compressive / deforming force.  I'm not sure how that magnitude differential keeps escaping you.  Again, if you can't achieve the cutting deformation force to begin with, the hardness of your tool is irrelevant.  Diamond bullets thrown by toddles aren't going to penetrate 18 inches through flesh.
 
5. You keep parroting yourself and given my "using a wet noodle  to push a metal knife through a board" illustration you should have realized by now I've not once said that Wolverine's claws will deform.  Wolverine himself will.  It is impossible for him to exert the necessary forces.  Newton's 3rd law means the diamond pushes back and at substantially below 440 GPa, Wolverine will lose his footing, his arm position, his momentum, etc.  Again the magnitude analysis here is pretty clear. 
 
6. Yes, I gave you the cutting force.  I called it "striking" force to distinguish from other non-martial cuts.  Given that this is nowhere near the realm of 440 Giga Pascals by several orders of magnitude which LITERALLY trump molecular volume, I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't get it.  I comped you a "perfect" blade- even though that's not what we actually see or can reason from bone claws- which uses the maximum possible pressure coefficient of a cutting tool (zero degrees and zero blade surface drag)... that is, literally, a molecular blade... but you're still orders of magnitude below the compression of 4-inches of diamond. 
 
Addressing your bullets: 
1. Irrelevant.  Again, the question isn't "Can Wolverine exploit a weak point?"  Because if that was the question anyone with a gun could resolve the inquiry.  The question is about a martial-styled cut. 
2. Are his blades capable of slicing?  No.  This shows a misapprehension about the material properties of diamond.  Even assuming you generate enough force to compress and begin a cut, you'd need substantially more pressure to continue the cut in a martial-styled "slice"... by the time you reach that level of force, the energy dump into the perfect lattice structure of a diamond would result in shattering, not slicing.  If you want a slice you'd have to either have to melt your way through the diamond or saw through it faster than the swing of your blade (essentially smaller, less traumatic cuts which remove material without disturbing the diamond crystal).  Which is to say, a martial slice is impossible.  Could the blades cut the diamond in a non-martial situation?  Sure.  Slow scoring, sawing, hammering, or other tool techniques, provided... 
3. Sufficient force, which, a humanoid is incapable of generating.  I don't think you get the magnitudes of pressure we're talking about in order to create a deformation in a 4-inch thick piece of diamond... and you're greatly overestimating the force multiplication of edge shape.  You realize we do have molecular blades right?  Surgeons have used scalpels that have been "flinted" to create molecular edges in cases where steel or glass is not sharp enough.  Even so, the pressure coefficient on those is only a few orders of magnitude.  Not enough for a human to start crushing 18-inches of diamond. 
 
It's pretty simple.
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roadbuster

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#55  Edited By roadbuster
@HexThis: Yeah, I pointed out in the fictional (not scientific) analysis that character preservation typically trumps offensive abilities.  It would be more important for Emma to live and be whole, in most stories, than it would be for Wolverine's claws to cut effortlessly when he's had a history of crossing blades with lesser materials, sparking off of armor plating, or only scratching Colossus.  So in most stories, if the writer had to choose, they'd likely opt in Emma's favor. 
 
Regarding the collapse, that is a clear example of durability and toughness of organic diamond probably not possessed by normal diamond.  Emma has many similar feats because Morrison's goal was to essentially have her be Colossus in his book.  So given increased toughness and ductility (heck, we KNOW she is ductile since she can actually MOVE as opposed to standing as a rigid statute), it's quite possible that even if Wolverine, by some miracle, produced the 440 GPa of force necessary to begin to compress her organic diamond... it would simply give a little at that point, rather than break or crack allowing his blade to move to the next layer and continue the cut.  Essentially, having the advantage of something like a titanium alloy over hard ceramics.
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Timandm

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#56  Edited By Timandm
@HexThis: I actually mentioned that her diamond form is Organic and therefore much stronger than ordinary diamond... and yes, I considered that she survived a nuclear explosion...  I wondered how much concussive force she endured, how much heat, how much radiation, etc...  We're given a clue in that she was carrying the body of one of her students... The body is very much in tact.  Dead, but in tact...  So, the whatever force hit was enough to damage organs or shatter bones but not shred the body...  Also, it's possible that the radiation had something to do with the students death...
 
Your question, " cut her in her diamond form?"  not as far as I'm concerned... I'm simply going on what information is available...
 
- We've already seen that Emma CAN be shattered, because she HAS been shattered... So, it's possible...
 
Do I WANT Logan to be able to cut her open?  NO, absolutely not....  But based on what Marvel has presented, I think he HAS to be able to...
 
Logan's power levels change ALL the time depending on who's doing the writing... Back in the 80s, in the Wolverine/Kitty mini-series, he was stabbed through the heart and nearly died.  It took him a few days to recover...  Prior to Civil War, he was basically at ground zero of a NUCLEAR BLAST from Nitro, and he's back up and fighting in a matter of minutes... Which was RIDICULOUS... But I didn't write it.
 
My point is only that, given what we know about Emma's diamond form and Logan's skeleton and abilities, I believe he could cut her open or shatter her...  I'm not saying I WANT it that way....  I'm not even saying it's a good thing....
 
I HATE that Storm is so powerful that she can feel weather patterns over the entire globe and that she can somehow generate pressure domes that deflect bullets???  But she can.....
 
And for the record, I love Emma... Not romantically mind you... I like the character...
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Timandm

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#57  Edited By Timandm
@Mainline: Sorry, but you don't understand physics and you keep flip flopping your points...
 
You're VERY much like some of my students who try to argue why their answers were right on an exam...  The questions are obvious.... The math models are obvious... The principles are there in the book... But for some reason they keep arguing their points...
 
Ultimately, I have to tell them, "Define your argument, do the math, and find another professor who agrees with your math and maybe I'll give you the points back."  Arguing with them, is pointless...
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#58  Edited By roadbuster
@Timandm: Well, my points are there to be read, others can decide if I'm flip flopping. 
 
You still haven't answered how a 500 lbs humanoid would generate 440 Giga pascals of pressure (which, mind you, is just enough to deform diamond, to actually have a cutting action you'd need magnitudes beyond that) against 4-18 inches of diamond beyond specious arguments about hardness.  Again, I've already comped you the perfect molecular blade with the maximum possible pressure coefficient (zero degrees, zero drag), but you still come up several orders of magnitude short.  500 lbs... even two tons... is not even close to enough. 
 
It doesn't matter if you're cutting a grilled cheese sandwich or a piece of steel... you need to generate the force and pressure to start the deformation for the cutting to begin.  You haven't cleared your burden of proof to establish Wolverine can do that.  I think that's pretty plain to see.
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Timandm

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#59  Edited By Timandm
@Mainline: You do realize diamonds are cut by hand... Don't you????  By HUMAN hands...
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roadbuster

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#60  Edited By roadbuster
@Timandm: Man, resorting to equivocation rather than math now? 
 
The question isn't "Can Wolverine apply jeweler's techniques to 'cutting' Emma?"  It is the question of a martial-styled cut. 
 
Jewels "cut" by hand do not use deformation pressure, do not slice, and do not stab.  They are ground, sawed, or broken... the first two using meticulous removal of material and the latter using sheering forces either along a fault in the diamond, an imperfection in the medium the diamond is in, or simply absolute force against a whole diamond, the latter being the brittleness of diamond as it relates to sheering forces NOT compression and deformation for a martial cut, slice, or stab. 
 
If you actually read the posts above, I said Wolvie could do that withe a jeweler's loop if Emma lay still on a table, but that wouldn't answer the OP's inquiry. 
 
In simple terms you're confusing two different usages of the word "hand cut" to try and establish your point rather than the application of hard engineering math to explain how a humanoid is ever going to create deformation forces comparable to massive geological pressures compressing carbon into the hardest substance known to man.
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Timandm

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#61  Edited By Timandm
@Mainline: At least I HAVE used math.... You have not...  and "equivocation?"  LOL!  I'm not the one avoiding the truth...
 
Tell you what, rather than you saying "I'm right unless you PROVE I'm wrong..."
 
Post a diagram.  Show the force vectors involved in a strike between Logan's claws and Emma's diamond skin...
 
- Show the force vectors
- Show the math model  (don't worry, I'll be able to follow it.)
- And then sum up the forces so that we know the over all vector of the forces
 
Also, I suggest you look up the difference between Sheer Force and Cutting Force... I get the impression you think they are the same thing when they actually have NOTHING to do with each other...
 
Oh, and let me help with the whole 440 Gpa thing...  
 e type of strength tested in order to initially make a cut- of diamond is around 440-445 GigaPascals
 I already said, Diamonds are CUT BY HANDS... Now, I don't know where googled this info from... But if it is correct, then do you REALLY not understand that IF this force is required, and since HUMANS ALREADY cut diamonds by hand.... They are already generating this much force by hand?  Not super humans... REAL, normal, humans cut diamonds by hand....  You don't get that???
 
1 pascal is equal to 1 newton per square meter...  Now, let's translate that to pounds (since you were the first to use the unit pound and I stuck with that... These discussions are easier if you keep the units constant.)
 
Now if you do the math (and I have) you find that... da da da DAH!!! (musical fanfare) 

440 GPa =  63,816,604 Pounds / square inch.
 
So, you're suggesting that is what it takes to cut a diamond... Um.. No...  That's enough force to launch about 12 rockets into space....  You should check your source...
 
However, the big tell is this:   What EVER force is required to cut diamonds, humans are more than able to EASILY generate that force....
 
NOW, show me your force vector diagram....
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HexThis

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#62  Edited By HexThis
@Timandm said:
@HexThis: - We've already seen that Emma CAN be shattered, because she HAS been shattered... So, it's possible... 
Emma can be shattered but the Stepford Cuckoos used a diamond bullet loaded in a gun which was trained at her "flaw" which has never been specified. 
 
In other words, the only thing that has successfully shattered Emma was something moving at the speed of a bullet, pointed at a specific place on her body, made completely out of diamond.   
 
Also, when we see Emma carrying Negasonic Teenage Warhead from the ruins the girl has many shards of glass stuck in her body. Given the concussive force of the explosions around both of them, those shards of glass would've been shooting from the debris at an extremely high speed if they were able to stick into NTW that way whereas Emma looks to have been impervious. 
 

Logan's power levels change ALL the time depending on who's doing the writing... Back in the 80s, in the Wolverine/Kitty mini-series, he was stabbed through the heart and  nearly died.  It took him a few days to recover...  Prior to Civil War, he was basically at ground zero of a NUCLEAR BLAST from Nitro, and he's back up and fighting in a matter of minutes... Which was RIDICULOUS... But I didn't write it.

Good ole days, I remember a simulation Mystique did in Murderworld where she nearly killed all of the X-men and for Wolverine I believe she only put him in a position to continually bleed out which would eventually kill him. Apparently he can drown though...I think.
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Timandm

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#63  Edited By Timandm
@HexThis: I didn't realize it was a diamond bullet...  That's interesting... However, a diamond bullet is still softer than Adamantium claws, isn't it?
 
 A bullet from a hand gun hits with about 350 foot-pounds of force...
 
Rocky Marciano could punch with more than 900 foot-pounds of force... This was actually measured...  Imagine if all that energy were put into a very thin blade... That makes a world of difference...  A blade of normal still would likely buckle on Emma's diamond skin.  We already know that she's bullet proof (except that one spot.)
 
Also, when we see Emma carrying Negasonic Teenage Warhead from the ruins the girl has many shards of glass stuck in her body. Given the concussive force of the explosions around both of them, those shards of glass would've been shooting from the debris at an extremely high speed if they were  able to stick into NTW that way whereas Emma looks to have been impervious.  
 
Yes, this is exactly the scene I was talking about...  Notice that Negasonic's body is still in tact... So, WHATEVER force she was hit with, was NOT enough to shred even a normal human body...  But it was obviously more than enough to kill...  She and Emma were in the same room so I assume they were hit by the same amount of force and types of debris or energy...   Clearly, Emma is invulnerable to energy attacks, which is way kewl...  And the fact that she's bullet proof tells us that she has a high level of invulnerability to concussive forces... We just don't know how much exactly, but clearly it's very freaking high, which is great....
 
and YES the days when the X-Men weren't mega-powerful... I actually prefer characters who aren't...
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#64  Edited By Mercy_

Why is everybody trying to bring real world physics into this? It's a comic book.

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Timandm

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#65  Edited By Timandm
@The Dark Huntress said:

Why is everybody trying to bring real world physics into this? It's a comic book.

Well, we're just trying to figure out something that none of us actually know the answer to...
 
Consider the classic question, "Is the entropy of hell increasing?"
 
We have no idea, but it's fun to try and use real world physics to answer the question...  Of course, comic book physics always trumps...What would REALLY happen depends entirely on the writers...  We're just having fun trying to guess, that's all...
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roadbuster

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#66  Edited By roadbuster
@Timandm said:
@Mainline: At least I HAVE used math.... You have not...  and "equivocation?"  LOL!  I'm not the one avoiding the truth...
 
Tell you what, rather than you saying "I'm right unless you PROVE I'm wrong..."
 
Post a diagram.  Show the force vectors involved in a strike between Logan's claws and Emma's diamond skin...
 
- Show the force vectors
- Show the math model  (don't worry, I'll be able to follow it.)
- And then sum up the forces so that we know the over all vector of the forces
 
Also, I suggest you look up the difference between Sheer Force and Cutting Force... I get the impression you think they are the same thing when they actually have NOTHING to do with each other...
 
Oh, and let me help with the whole 440 Gpa thing...  
 e type of strength tested in order to initially make a cut- of diamond is around 440-445 GigaPascals.   I already said, Diamonds are CUT BY HANDS... Now, I don't know where googled this info from... But if it is correct, then do you REALLY not understand that IF this force is required, and since HUMANS ALREADY cut diamonds by hand.... They are already generating this much force by hand?  Not super humans... REAL, normal, humans cut diamonds by hand....  You don't get that???  1 pascal is equal to 1 newton per square meter...  Now, let's translate that to pounds (since you were the first to use the unit pound and I stuck with that... These discussions are easier if you keep the units constant.)  Now if you do the math (and I have) you find that... da da da DAH!!! (musical fanfare)  440 GPa =  63,816,604 Pounds / square inch.  So, you're suggesting that is what it takes to cut a diamond... Um.. No...  That's enough force to launch about 12 rockets into space....  You should check your source...  However, the big tell is this:   What EVER force is required to cut diamonds, humans are more than able to EASILY generate that force....  NOW, show me your force vector diagram....
Well, if you insist... 
1. "Avoiding Truth" - Given that you don't know that the compressive strength of diamond is around 445 gigapascals, I'm a little in awe at your assertion of truth dodging.  But if you need to be spoonfed.  Here are a few links: 
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae483.cfm (443)
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp102037j (470) 
 
2. "Sheer Force v. Cutting" - Uh, duh, I've explicitly said they're NOT the same thing, which is why I've isolated martial cuts- which is compressive force- from sheer force, the amount of force necessary to break the diamond along its crystalline structure NOT compress it in order to cut it.  The sheer force is magnitudes lower than the compressive strength of a diamond, meaning you could shatter a diamond with a hammer... but you could not cut a diamond with that minimal force. 
 
3. You are embarrassing yourself by doubting the compressive strength of diamonds, however, you're seriously lacking in: a) Reading comprehension and b) Materials engineering.  a) I've already explained the difference between a jeweler's "cut by hand" and Wolverine's martial "cut by hand".  Setting a stone to a grinding flywheel, using the orientation of the stone to exploit sheering, or sawing away at the diamond by hand are NOT martial compressive cuts.  Not only did I say that ALREADY- several times- but it's embarrassing how you keep trying to pretend it's the same kind of "cut" as what Wolverine would do in a fight.  I can't believe I need to distinguish between the two... sigh. 
 
Again, to spoon feed.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geology/diamond3.htm 
 
Note every technique exploits melting, sheering, or toughness NOT compression.  A groove is cut by laser using melting.  Then the wedge breaks the diamond along the crystalline structure.  Alternatively the groove is "cut" by sawing, which is the removal / scratching of material away exploiting the toughness of diamond (it's ability to hold itself together) rather than the compression of diamond.  None of these translate into a viable martial-styled cut for Wolverine, which would be a compressive cut up against diamond's compressive strength.  As I've said before, Wolvie could sit down and use jeweler's techniques, but those are fight relevant.
 
4. Yes, it's several gigapascals and your failure to recognize that immense magnitude is why you can't grasp this simple concept.
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#67  Edited By Timandm
@Mainline: Sigh... Clearly you don't have a real grasp of physics... I suspect you're a student maybe?  You're googling facts and numbers...  You've done no math here... You've shown no force vectors...  You're using words that don't apply like Kinesthetics...  It's pointless to try and explain it to you... Feel free to continue with your insults and accusations... They seem to be all you have...
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roadbuster

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#68  Edited By roadbuster
@Timandm: Dude, you're the one that said "It can't possibly be 440 GPa!" only to have links thrown in your face to the contrary.  You're the one who repeated MULTIPLE times that "cut by hand" was equivalent whether using jeweler's techniques or Wolverine's martial-styled cut.  I honestly have nothing to prove, people can read for themselves and see the obvious. 
 
To cut something- in a martial fashion- you need to compress and deform the material for the blade to penetrate and the atomic bonds to break.  This is NOT scraping away material testing toughness.  This is NOT breaking a crystal along a planar axis to exploit sheering.  This is NOT melting with a laser.  Claws on diamond in order to cut, relevantly, REQUIRES compression. 
 
By your own admission Wolverine needs "12 rockets to space" worth of energy to compress that diamond... and you wonder why I thought your position was ridiculous that Wolvie could generate that?
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Timandm

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#69  Edited By Timandm
@Mainline: Dude... its' done... let it go... You're not talking to a high school kid googlling facts online...  I've already finished graduate school... I've already published scientific journals...  Science is not a a hobby for me.... It's a profession....
 
This is pointless...  you DO NOT have an in depth understanding of physics... That's not an insult it's just the way it is...  No matter what math or diagrams or facts I put up here, you'll ignore and counter with something that makes not sense or does not apply... it's POINTLESS... This is SUPPOSED to be fun...
 
I'm done discussing this with you...
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#70  Edited By Kallarkz
@Timandm said:

 This is SUPPOSED to be fun

This most of all =) 
There is no reason to become upset or to exchange harsh words about this. Like  Dark Huntress said its a comic book. It's fun analyzing these types of things. Sometimes there is not a definitive yes or no answer. It simply depends on what the writers choose to make happen in the comics. We could read a comic next week at Emma laughing at Wolverine as he tries to cut her or we could see a book ending with her with a shocked face as Wolverine plunges his claws into her stomach. 
 
Sometimes the best way to end an endless conversation is "Agree to disagree". The world would be a super boring place if we all reached the same type of conclusions and had the same opinions.  
Take care guys
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#71  Edited By roadbuster
@Timandm: Again, this is why I question your credentials because you didn't know- or bother to check- the relevant material property of diamond to establish cutting... instead, we got rather unscientific equivocations between jeweler's cuts and martial cuts.  In terms of science, magnitude analysis is important.  You were ranting about pressure per square inch when I ALREADY comped you a molecular blade with perfect cutting properties... and now you're ranting about "force vectors" when, again, I gave you an ideal "zero degree" blade.  No vectors- beyond the perpendicular- necessary mon frere.  You don't have to account for the wedge of the blade, the outward compressive forces or the toughness of the material, just a perfect easy-math compression test... and, guess what, a 500 lbs hairy mutant is MAGNITUDES off the necessary to even START a cut, much less continue on through 4 to 18 inches of solid organic diamond.
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roadbuster

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#72  Edited By roadbuster
@Kallarkz said:
 The world would be a super boring place if we all reached the same type of conclusions and had the same opinions.  Take care guys
I've stated, repeatedly, that the fictional analysis is up in the air, which is why under the scientific analysis, the outcome should be- well- scientific.  Which, given the right constraints and variables, should result in a repeatable and predictable result... that is one conclusion, not a plurality of conclusions.
 
What astonishes me is that we had to walk through very basic steps- from understanding the irrelevance of hardness, to Wolverine's lack of rigidity, to what actually constitutes a cut, to finally his inability to generate sufficient force, by someone claiming to be scientific... which is why I've been adamant.  It seems that even some of the people not approaching the analysis as in depth intuited the ultimate issue: "Can Wolverine generate sufficient force?" which, even at a glance, should be clear we're dealing with magnitudes beyond humanoid abilities.  That said, of course, I allowed for fictional statistics such as "infinite hardness" and "organic diamond toughness" but none of those are particularly relevant to the combat compressive cut where Wolvie can never generate sufficient force to compress that diamond.  The high hardness of a diamond bullet is irrelevant to penetration if thrown by a toddler.  In comparison to the compressive strength of diamond (versus flesh in the diamond bullet hypo), Wolverine is less than a toddler despite his infinitely hard blades, making their hardness irrelevant to a combat cut. 
 
To review Timandm's point, which he repeated thinking it had traction, the fact that diamonds are cut as jewels has NO relevance to the way Wolverine's claws would cut in combat.  Swinging his arms, slashing, thrusting, etc. do not in any way mimic the ways jewels are cut, which rely on melting lasers, sawing to remove material by exploiting the lower toughness of diamonds, or cleaving a diamond against its  tetrahedral plane- sheering or shattering- the diamond as opposed to cutting as we think of with swords, sandwiches, or slashing.  Just because diamond can be overcome with much lower forces in those jewelery cases has no bearing on diamond's resistance to compression caused by a martial cut.  No one is chopping diamonds up with a blade the way Wolverine's blades work.  Frankly, I thought this was understood but if not, there's the grade school "How Diamonds Work" link for those who don't get it.
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GOREX

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#73  Edited By GOREX

In real life, a blade made out of Adamantium would not cut through diamond if it were wielded by a man. 

In comics, Wolverine is about 15 times as strong as the average person (depends on writer) and in the Ultimate X-men series he did cut through Collosus who was at the time high on that super mutant drug and took out his heart ! So yes Wolverine WOULD cut through Emma's diamond form. 
 
In the First Class movie Magneto cracked her diamond neck with METAL ! (Also in X-3 Wolverine tore a Sentinel's head off  - given it was a simulation the gravity and weight seemed well proportionate - a quarter of his face torn by rocks from an explosion) .

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Thor's hammmer

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#74  Edited By Thor's hammmer

Since he can cut through people like Thor, Hulk, Silver Surfer and even Thano's skin. all of who can survive hits that would crush diamonds into dust unharmed he should be able to cut diamond as all of there sikins' should be much harder than diamond.
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keith71_98

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#75  Edited By keith71_98

Ok, adamantium in and of itself would cut through diamond. In order to pierce Emma wouldn't we have to consider the adamantium plus the amount of force neccessary to punch through?  
 
No idea why I'm throwing this into the conversation. lol
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#76  Edited By sa5m

Yes it can I believe =)

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Edgeworth_11

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#77  Edited By Edgeworth_11

Adamantium>>>>diamond.
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#79 God_Spawn  Moderator  Online

Even though Emma's organic diamond form is much harder than real world diamonds, Wolverine's still cut above her durability on multiple occasions. She'd get sliced through.

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roadbuster

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#80  Edited By roadbuster

@god_spawn: True, but Wolverine's also failed to cut above her durability on multiple occasions as well, the best example is only being able to scratch Colossus in some stories. If fiction is the only guide, then either outcome is possible depending on the writer's requirements.

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#81  Edited By God_Spawn  Moderator  Online

@mainline: Wolverine scored him during a training exercise. He had no reason to seriously harm him there. Piotr has admitted he can cut him if he wishes. If you know both characters well enough, I don't see this as really debatable.

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Frozon

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Hmmm probably nott.

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Rickbarry

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I don't know think he can hack off a limb, but he'd certainly be able to cut her. Imagine how it would sting!

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Noone1996

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#85  Edited By Noone1996

Easily.

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