@John Valentine said:

@ka385385 said:

@John Valentine:

How mature ,kid ,grow up.

Learn to type.

Good lord kid,....you sure love making problems online,...I'm actually more curious on why you would bother with these forums when all you do is just make yourself look like a reclusive ass to everybody else on here.

@BaBaBoom:

I still don't like Flash Thompson even he is venom now.

If it's really about X-23 ,than why bother bring hellion on this fourm ,i read for x-23 apeear which include hellion sometime,It's called Character Development alright .bad Character Development ,Hellion never fit X-23.

@KingofMadCows: King of Mad Cows, indeed! Your words are royal, my friend. Best approach ever concerning X-23. In three paragraphs you said everything. Grats.

@FourthDeity said:

@John Valentine: Tell me. Why do you like Hellion so much?I'm not accusing you of being a fanboy I'm curious.

I wrote a massive post on one of the Hellion threads about why I like Hellion.

I could not find my post, but I found this one that pretty much sums up exactly how I feel:

@why_you_mad_tho said:

I don't know how people couldn't like Hellion. Charming, egotistical, remarkably loyal and arrogant. He's charismatic, powerful, a ladies man and he has more character and depth than most of the idiots who headline the series he appears in. Hellion had depth even when he was a "bully" in the Weir and Defilippis days. He oozed charm in just about every scene he was in with Sofia. Julian didn't like people to think he was soft..or weak. He was upset that his parents didn't attend parents-day and was forced to participate, but later told anole it was only an act to get out of working. Or when Northstar was killed. Sofia and Julian just flew around in the old spot Northstar use to teach flight training. Julian confessed how he knew Northstar cared about him. But later when he was with his friends he pretended how he could careless about Northstar or his funeral. And yet there he was watching from afar. Julian has always shown he that he valued loyalty and friendship above everything. You can say what you want about Hellion but he would risk his life, and freedom at just a chance to protect one of his friends.That's exactly why i loved Hellion and the Hellions, and hated Icarus and the new mutants. It didn't matter if Julian was getting the Hellions Squad into trouble..they followed him anyway. They did it because they knew Julian would do the same for anyone of them. Emma described him best. Even when he's being good, he's insolent. And he will always do what he FEELS is best.

Even though my interests are more with the villain type, I do find X-23 as a unique character with alot of potential for any creative writer,....I would say that the issue would be because of bad writing, for some reason it's becoming a common trend these days.

@k2 said:

@ka385385 said:

@John Valentine:

He is not that powerful or he won't lose his hands.

Wolverine might have a little pride in him ,but he was train with samurai way which teach him be humble a lot ,Angel always been polite ,Iron man always can see what good in people and he don't think he is always been better than the others ,he is somekind of Mangeto-wannbe ,or worse.

Hellion is just a snob arrogant kid ,immature behaviort thought himself is somekind of badass but he still can't see the fact that there are lots of people better than him ,like he don't respect Cyclops ,hell ,even Wolverine not like him very much ,he think even surge is better than that jerk.

i don't want to go over this over and over again and i don't need to heard stupid ridiculous excuse to deffend his arrogant.

I wish Hellion was real. He'd deal with you in like two and a half seconds, and then the rest of us could just have peaceful discussions full of awesome--troll-free.

Approved.

@MTHarman said:

Even though my interests are more with the villain type, I do find X-23 as a unique character with alot of potential for any creative writer,....I would say that the issue would be because of bad writing, for some reason it's becoming a common trend these days.

Who isn't being written badly?

Still love her.

@k2:

Well ,i don't think there is need to share about opinion about me ,its about x-23 ,i said i want Ghost Rider burn Hellion into ash (and i believe he can really do that and he will) ,and dont' you tired this kind of discussions go over and over again? it's the third time people talk this with Liu's writing ,i think Liu wirted a very fine story ,and i think i been nice to you all the time ,if you don't take that ,fine by me ,can't force you be friendly ,John Valentine has been a jerk from the beging ,so i don't argue with childlish people.

I have my right to keep hellion that idiot away from X-23 ,there is no need for X-23 such a good character ruin by a bozo.

Hellion is not real ,we can kill him...with a pen.

And stop thos pointless complaint about Liu's writing ,she write a very great story ,the comic been cancel reason i believe is because NEW 52 ,not for bad story.

@ka385385 said:

And stop thos pointless complaint about Liu's writing ,she write a very great story ,the comic been cancel reason i believe is because NEW 52 ,not for bad story.

Are you being serious about this whole thing?

There is absolutely NO WAY that Liu's book, a Marvel book, was cancelled due to a DC reboot.

"Pointless complaint" about Liu's writing. Almost as pointless as your trolling/barrage of hate against Hellion. At least people's dislike of Liu is usually founded, unlike your hate of Hellion which seems to be based on a few appearances and self-created and expanded opinions of the character.

Liu is a writer who forces her pet characters into her books and willingly undoes years of development on any and every character for which it suits to write her stories. This is why I dislike Liu.

@FourthDeity said:

@MTHarman said:

Even though my interests are more with the villain type, I do find X-23 as a unique character with alot of potential for any creative writer,....I would say that the issue would be because of bad writing, for some reason it's becoming a common trend these days.

Who isn't being written badly?

That's your opinion, not everybody else

@ka385385 said:

@k2:

Well ,i don't think there is need to share about opinion about me ,its about x-23 ,i said i want Ghost Rider burn Hellion into ash (and i believe he can really do that and he will) ,and dont' you tired this kind of discussions go over and over again? it's the third time people talk this with Liu's writing ,i think Liu wirted a very fine story ,and i think i been nice to you all the time ,if you don't take that ,fine by me ,can't force you be friendly ,John Valentine has been a jerk from the beging ,so i don't argue with childlish people.

I have my right to keep hellion that idiot away from X-23 ,there is no need for X-23 such a good character ruin by a bozo.

Hellion is not real ,we can kill him...with a pen.

And stop thos pointless complaint about Liu's writing ,she write a very great story ,the comic been cancel reason i believe is because NEW 52 ,not for bad story.

If there's one thing that anybody cannot do online, is try to reason with immature people.

My best advice is just ignore immature users, you'll never prove a point with people like the ones your dealing with on here. Most of all who cares about Hellion, Liu's writing, or whatever, this topic is about X-23 and should remain X-23.

@MTHarman:

you got the point ,it's X-23 fourm.

and not "Most of all who cares about Hellion" ,i stick here for a while i know thise topic have made for serve time ,and i also see lots people who hate hellion as much as i do.

@ka385385 said:

@MTHarman:

you got the point ,it's X-23 fourm.

and not "Most of all who cares about Hellion" ,i stick here for a while i know thise topic have made for serve time ,and i also see lots people who hate hellion as much as i do.

You brought him up.

@John Valentine said:

@ka385385 said:

@MTHarman:

you got the point ,it's X-23 fourm.

and not "Most of all who cares about Hellion" ,i stick here for a while i know thise topic have made for serve time ,and i also see lots people who hate hellion as much as i do.

You brought him up.

Who cares, if you wanna continue to talk about Hellion, then make a post of how you feel about Hellion on his forum page and stay off of this one.

Reads past few posts...

@MTHarman: It was more of a joke but allright

@x_29: LOL she looks gorgeous even when she's just eating popcorn

At first I responded to the posts, but then I decided that I don't want to be involved in this discussion anymore, so my comments are officially withdrawn. Have a good day all! :o)

@k2 said:

At first I responded to the posts, but then I decided that I don't want to be involved in this discussion anymore, so my comments are officially withdrawn. Have a good day all! :o)

A shame, I actually enjoy reading what you write.

Nup.

@k2:

Right ,remember it's not my starting this ,this kind of topic made three times already ,pointless.

@k2 said:

At first I responded to the posts, but then I decided that I don't want to be involved in this discussion anymore, so my comments are officially withdrawn. Have a good day all! :o)

um...okay.

Anyway, getting back to the topic. It does look like they might be putting X-23 in more of a leadership position in Avengers Academy. She has been the voice of reason and everyone has been following her advice. I don't know if they'll give her more character development but they are giving her something new to do so it might be interesting.

@KingofMadCows: I think she's only going to be in a leadership role during the Avengers vs X-Men event. I doubt Gage will replace Reptil as group leader (not yet anyway). As of the recent Avengers Academy issue I am now more convinced that X-23 doesn't fit in any shape or form with the kids in Avengers Academy. Issue #32 made me especially hate Juston Seyfert and his Sentinel because I hate kids/people who brings something so offensive to a certain group of people and not part away with it or leave with it. That's just me being a minority in a place with people not exactly knowing what's offensive and what's not (AMERICA) though they stop or refrain doing offensive stuff to me when they know its offensive. I guess my issue with the recent issue would be that I thought Laura has already gone over her Facility days or at least the small ones. I may be wrong, but I think the writers that use Laura nowadays only reference the X-23 mini-series and the NYX books and totally dismisses anything from New X-Men and X-Force.

I could just be ranting because the Avengers Academy #32 left a really bad taste in my mouth.

@Crom-Cruach: what she is AWESOME

@BaBaBoom: There are enough students in Avengers Academy for two or three different teams.

As for whether or not X-23 fits in Avengers Academy, it is a place for super powered kids with lots of personal problems so she definitely could fit in there. She can be a good leader and she can help the other students deal with their problems. In fact, it would be interesting if they made her an instructor.

And they definitely have a problem with cultural sensitivity. They just don't treat the whole thing very seriously. They don't seem to recognize that the sentinels are a symbol of oppression and genocide to the mutants. Having one around, even if it is benign or sentient, is like having a giant burning cross or a swastika.

I say bring her back to the X-books.

When her solo beginnings came out, I fell in love with the character. I regularly blame my former roommate, simply because he was so infatuated with Wolverine that I began hating him, so my frustration about that came in the form of X-23. I hold her dear to me, she is ultimately my favorite Marvel character next to Psylocke. I've read every topic about her and her minor appearances, and I even own a bust of her in her Saber suit.

@YoungSpawn said:

@Crom-Cruach: what she is AWESOME

You and I clearly have very different standards on what makes a character awesome, let's respectfully leave it at that. I personally consider her one of the worst creations of marvel.

the fact that she is only just a female version of wolverine and nothin more makes sence. if we need a new wolverine we got daken so i kind of understand but powers wise those are what i like.

@YoungSpawn: Except she's not just a female version of Wolverine. Her personality is completely different.

Anyone who thinks X-23's just a female version of Wolverine obviously knows nothing about her.

@War Killer:

her early version in uncanny x-men (when her eyes not even green) looks pretty much like a female version of wolverine ,but Craig Kyle put some very great work at shaping her.

@KingofMadCows: Well sort of they both are freakin phyico

@War Killer said:

Anyone who thinks X-23's just a female version of Wolverine obviously knows nothing about her.

This.

@War Killer said:

Anyone who thinks X-23's just a female version of Wolverine obviously knows nothing about her.

Agreed!

@x_29 said:

@War Killer said:

Anyone who thinks X-23's just a female version of Wolverine obviously knows nothing about her.

Agreed!

Needless to say.

@YoungSpawn said:

the fact that she is only just a female version of wolverine and nothin more makes sence. if we need a new wolverine we got daken so i kind of understand but powers wise those are what i like.

No.

And X-23 >>>>>> Daken.

I liked her relationship with Gambit. It was a good big brother/little sister relationship to me.

It's a character that could have an extrordinary development, her limited series were great, and her relashionship with Gambit and Jubilee on her solo series proved to be nice,

but overall it's poorly treated with hollow stories.

@Arad said:

It's a character that could have an extrordinary development, her limited series were great, and her relashionship with Gambit and Jubilee on her solo series proved to be nice,

but overall it's poorly treated with hollow stories.

I think it's a problem with the comic book industry in general. They're not as willing to explore bigger and deeper ideas of philosphy, humanity, politics, science fiction, etc.

Granted, the medium is more limited in that capacity compared to movies, TV shows, books, and video games, but that does not preclude the possility. Just look at movies like The Wrath of Khan, Terminator 1 and 2, The Matrix, and District 9, which were all action/thriller/adventure sci-fi movies that managed to entertain on that level but also dealt with some very interesting themes on a deeper level.

That's certainly the way they should be treating X-23, along with a lot of other characters. They can keep all the action and dramatic elements but build it on a deeper level of a search for humanity that is integrated with her development of personal identity.

And the problem with Liu's treatment of X-23 is that she tends to forget some of X-23's "very particular set of skills." X-23 thinks strategically, carefully studies her target, and always tries to make sure she doesn't go into a situation blind. However, she failed to display those traits several times in her ongoing series. For example, she studied Wolverine for a week before going after him, yet she went after Daken as soon as she saw him.

@KingofMadCows: DC before the New 52 tend to deal with a lot of deeper themes and Marvel has always dealt dark themes especially with the X-Men. Though not as much today those 2 did explore ideas of philosophy, humanity, politics, science fiction, etc. Other than Ultra, Pride of Baghdad, Fables, Walking Dead and Y: The Last Man I haven't read anything that truly explored the ideas you're talking about.

In Liu's X-23, she did build it on a deeper level of a search of humanity, or at least tried, in some of the chapters but most of them either has been dealt with before or fell flat on the floor.

@BaBaBoom: While many comics have certainly touched upon those issues, I don't think they've really explored them in any depth. A lot of times they'd point out an interesting idea or theme but wouldn't really do anything with it.

As for Liu's X-23, she failed to create a basis for that search for humanity. X-23's view on humanity has never really been explored. Liu hadn't really dealt with what humanity means to X-23 before she had X-23 begin her search for her humanity. Considering how her experience with people in general haven't exactly been pleasant, should X-23 even have as much faith in humanity as she seems to have?

@War Killer said:

Anyone who thinks X-23's just a female version of Wolverine obviously knows nothing about her.

Exactly.

I have a good friend who doesn't like her so I don't find the hate surprising. Not everyone is going to like every character. I've been a fan of her's since Marvel vs. Capcom helped get me back into Comics and I picked up the series Chris Yost did on her. I really like what he did with her. I enjoyed Liu's ongoing X-23 series as well. As much as I liked X-force, I felt her inclusion on the Team was a step backwards for her, so I was glad to see Logan take her off the team. I feel that she is really under used in Avengers Academy (so is alot of the cast of that book, Lyra, Ricochet etc..) though I'm glad to see she at least is still in a book. I really wish she would go back to the X-men though. Hopefully with the Marvel Now thing shaking stuff up she goes back to them. To answer the question at hand, No I'm not sick of Laura. She is one of my favorites. I do understand why people may not like her however.

While there were certainly problems with X-23's arc on X-Force, I get what they tried to do but I think they just weren't able to expand on their ideas due to how much stuff they had to cram into the series. I think they were trying do an arc about the struggle between her humanity and her Facility conditioning. She had real purpose in joining the X-Force, she wasn't just doing it because Cyclops told her to, she was doing it to protect her friends. However, in order for her to be as effective as possible, she had to let her Facility training take over. She was sacrificing her new found humanity so that people she cared about could keep theirs, all the while knowing that they wouldn't really understand her actions.

That theme was explored somewhat in the "Not Forgotten" story. She could have just left that SHIELD agent behind and used her stealth training to evade Kimura and escape from the Facility. However, she took a big chance and used the trigger scent so that they'd both have a chance to escape. The underlying subtext of X-23's break down at the end of that story was a reassurance ofher empathy and compassion, that even if her own future is full of hopelessness and despair, that even if she can never save herself, she would still fight on in order to save others from such a fate.