Wonder Woman 2: Movie Discussion Thread

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#501 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@ready_4_madness said:

@agent41:

OOOOOOOH! It makes sense now, you want her to use her shield and sword less. That doesn’t mean she’s not powerful though, it’s just more logical that she’d use a sword and shield, because she’s a warrior. Classic just had a different approach, different fighting style.

Again I get your perspective and do agree with the fact that they need to amp up her power levels, but at the same time I would still like it if she carried on using the shield and the sword. DC do need to balance it better, that’s undeniable.

But she was a more skilled warrior AND a big powerhouse before the sword and shield. When the sword and shield get all the attention, and most of the damage she causses is because of them. It does make her look weaker without them. Makes her more of a super human warrior woman instead of a powerhouse. And there needs to be a balance between warrior and diplomat like classic WW. Especially for somebody that holds back because she tries to avoid killing as much as possible. It doesn't make sense to have a sword as the go to move.

Since the sword and shield appeared. Part of her essence is lost. Her power is lacking compared to classic WW. She is too passive and never has any WOW moment. I don't read WW to see a super human xena. I read WW to see a badass and super powerful amazon and peace ambassador, embarking in epic adventures.

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#502 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17617 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I agree, they can find a balance between the two that’s all I’m saying.

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#503 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not denying DC comics hasn't done a great job with WW but what I'm saying is that WW84 seems to be much worse. I know Diana not being useless isn't as important to most people but it's the most important to me. Patty not caring about power levels/ action doesn't make her a bad director either, just the wrong director in my opinion for a superhero movie. She is worse than Zack, Azz, Geoff and even GWW if rumours turn out to be true. It's ironic and sad that women (GWW and Patty) are handling WW worse than any man. I really really wanted this movie to prove my doubts about Patty were false. I was hoping for it to be at the very least better than the first movie. Before I was worried, now I'm just hoping WW84 never sees the light of day. Admittedly, AQ had also given me a reason to hope because I didn't believe DC would let Arthur be so powerful when they weren't planning on doing the same with Diana. So I guess it's partially to blame for the disappointment.

Note: I understand Patty J is good enough when it comes to story. That is just my opinion. I understand that we all have different priorities. This wouldn't bother me as much if it was limited to comics.

Hopefully Barda will be more powerful and have decent action scenes. Maybe she could fill the gap where Diana failed.

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#504 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity said:

I'm not denying DC comics hasn't done a great job with WW but what I'm saying is that WW84 seems to be much worse. I know Diana not being useless isn't as important to most people but it's the most important to me. Patty not caring about power levels/ action doesn't make her a bad director either, just the wrong director in my opinion for a superhero movie. She is worse than Zack, Azz, Geoff and even GWW if rumours turn out to be true. It's ironic and sad that women (GWW and Patty) are handling WW worse than any man. I really really wanted this movie to prove my doubts about Patty were false. I was hoping for it to be at the very least better than the first movie. Before I was worried, now I'm just hoping WW84 never sees the light of day. Admittedly, AQ had also given me a reason to hope because I didn't believe DC would let Arthur be so powerful when they weren't planning on doing the same with Diana. So I guess it's partially to blame for the disappointment.

Note: I understand Patty J is good enough when it comes to story. That is just my opinion. I understand that we all have different priorities. This wouldn't bother me as much if it was limited to comics.

Hopefully Barda will be more powerful and have decent action scenes. Maybe she could fill the gap where Diana failed.

Can you please tag me and asnwer this? Why would WW be useless in her own movie? That doesn't make sense at all. What rumours did you hear that suggest WW will be useless in WW84? And no Patty is not as bad as azz, zack, geof, gww. Because at least she can actually create a compelling story with WW as a center character. The others not only portray WW as a glorified super human xena. They also suck at putting WW as the center of the story, and fail to tell a compelling narrative with her character.

BTW. DCEU AQ had one great feat lifting the submarine. Overall he is not what i would call very powerful. He isn't above DCEU WW.

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#505 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Since when the hell do WW and “spy romance” go together anyway? Smh. Patty, I hope you know what you’re doing. This just all sounds terrible and cringeworthy to me.

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#506 Edited by Archizooom (2189 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Arthur didn’t “lift” that submarine, he pushed it under water which obviously takes a great deal of strength, but not as much as it would take to lift a submarine on dry land against the full force of gravity, not even close.

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#507 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

Since when the hell do WW and “spy romance” go together anyway? Smh. Patty, I hope you know what you’re doing. This just all sounds terrible and cringeworthy to me.

WW has many elements thst can work. Including spy material. The film will have better character development and a more cohesive story than current WW comics. We can be sure about that.

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#508 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: I know. Which is why i said DCEU aq is not above DCEU WW.

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#509 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: WW and "spy material" don't go together. It sounds like a recipe for disaster. Gal Gadot doesn't have the acting chops either nor is WW going to benefit from it. She should be fighting extremely powerful beings and villains. I don't think there's going to be epic powerful fights in this movie. From the early test screening nobody mentioned anything about action and fights.

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#510 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: WW doesn't have any lifting feats close to what AQ did with the sub. She's a glorified mid-tier.

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#511 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: WW can work with spy material and in fact this is a theme we have seen in the comics before. You can also have great action with the theme. I hope we do get that. We'll see. If we don't. It will still be better than current comic WW.

As for aq. He is a mid tier in DCEU just like WW. And he didn't lift anything. He just pushed it under water. Nothing close to the strength you would need to actually lift the whole thing on land against gravity. It is a good feat. But it has context. Overall he is less impressive than DCEU WW.

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#512 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I agree, they can find a balance between the two that’s all I’m saying.

Sadly i don't think they care.

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#513 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Just because we have seen it in the comics doesn’t automatically make it good. Are you talking about the cringy powerless white jumpsuit WW from the 60s or something cause if you are...that was an embarrassment.

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#514 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

We need to avoid that like the plague...especially now.

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#515 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17617 posts) - - Show Bio
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#516 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Just because we have seen it in the comics doesn’t automatically make it good. Are you talking about the cringy powerless white jumpsuit WW from the 60s or something cause if you are...that was an embarrassment.

No. We have seen it with a power up WW as well. My point is that the theme itself is not ba or an obstace for a good plot.

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#517 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: I've seen calcs that claim it might be a lot more since he was pushing the sub upwards against a large volume of water

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#518 Edited by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: In terms of raw power? That's debatable.

Note that this does not mean he would win in a fight on land or under water

Wonder woman has speed (Mach 4 at best), strength (50 tons lifting), durability (more so than AQ), slow HF, longevity, lasso that works on some people, a sword (cut doomsday), Shield (take hits from Doomsday), possible energy manipulation and an immunity to toxins

Aquaman has swimming speed (Mach 4+ Minimum), strength (1000+ tons lifting Minimum), durability (not as durable as WW) but bulletproof, enhanced vision, trident (easily stabs Steppy and nearly unbreakable), control over all sea life including Kaiju sized monsters (atleast 2), slow HF, water manipulation (limited) & ability to breathe under water

While WW is might be faster, more skilled and more durable based on feats, AQ has a bunch of other OP abilities. In my opinion he is low high tier in raw power.

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#519 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: My point about her being useless was in reference to the entire DCEU. Ofcourse if a character is looked at in the context of their own solo movie (while disregarding the rest of the universe) they'd have to be useful in one way or another. Regardless of whether that character is Hawkeye or a blind goat.

This movie seems like it's going to be WW's version of Thor: the Dark World.

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#520 Posted by Archizooom (2189 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: The overlying water does pile on weight but at the same time, the buoyant force counteracts the weight of the submarine which is why a sinking ship doesn’t plummet to the bottom of the sea, it slowly sinks. In other words, the water exerts an upward force on the object, plus submarines are designed to float so buoyancy helps

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#521 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: Probably but considering the large volume of water he had to push against due to the sub's surface area not to mention the speed at which he was moving. Even if we low ball it by saying it's below 5000 tons, it's still over 100 times WW's best lifting feat. And impressive on its own.

I'm not into the calcs and all but I've seen it range from around 10K tons to 500,000+ tons. Haven't found someone trust worthy (not biased) to do a proper calc. But if you take the BvS newspaper Supes feat about moving a tectonic plate literally then it's believable for Arthur to be closer to 500k tons.

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#522 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: WW and all the jl were useless in the jl movie. That had to do wit bad writing. But that movie doesn't mean that WW has been useless in the whole DCEU. And i'm sure she won't be useless in WW84 either.

aq has a better lifting strength feat yes. That lifting feat is also better than anything from sgazam and others. And although he didn't lift the whole weight, like i said it's still a good feat. But lifting strength is only one factor. Striking, speed, skills, durability go to WW. Her gear is more powerful as well. So overall WW>AQ.

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#523 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Well not really. Even in the DCEU AQ and Cyborg are still useful. Cyborg was the only other character to really shine in JL. It allowed him to make a valuable contribution to the team in a way no one else could. Arthur was downplayed in JL but he got his time to shine in his solo movie that's to the guy that's undeniably the best director DC films have seen in a while. Arthur was taken from a joke to greatness. After his solo movie, I'm sure Flash will be on the list as well. Diana will have had 2 movies by then. She would have wasted 2 chances to do what most characters did in one.

That's why I listed all their abilities in the DCEU. Not just strength, not just speed. Overall, AQ is more powerful but would probably lose in a fight on land.

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#524 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: DCEU WW has also had times to shine. In batman vs superman, in her first film, in jl she had some moments as well. And of course in WW84 she will also shine. I on't get where you are getting this idea that she is or will be useless. Because there is nothing to suggest that.

AQ isn't more powerful when he only has better feats in lifting strength. WW has better stats in everything else plus better skills and better gear.

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#525 Edited by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: In JL, WW was treated terribly idk what you’re talking about lol. We still haven’t seen her “skills” as the “best melee fighter” the DCEU. It’s all lip service. They keep talking about her strength, speed, etc. but we still have no good feats.

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#526 Edited by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

WW is basically chopped liver in the DCEU.

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#527 Edited by Archizooom (2189 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: I have absolutely no idea exactly how much strength it took to push the submarine but you need to take a few things into account: 1) objects “weigh less” underwater so to speak b) the submarine was near the surface where pressure is relatively low c) it was undamaged and floating underwater (no down-thrust). It’s not the same as “lifting” a submarine on land with gravity pulling it down. It's a very impressive feat nonetheless

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#528 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: In JL, WW was treated terribly idk what you’re talking about lol. We still haven’t seen her “skills” as the “best melee fighter” the DCEU. It’s all lip service. They keep talking about her strength, speed, etc. but we still have no good feats.

I said she had some moments. And as far as lip service goes. It happens the same thing with WW in the comics since 2011. But this notion that she will be useless in WW84 is based on nothing.

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#529 Edited by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Yes, her best and only high tier feats are in BvS directed by Zack btw. But that doesn't give her a unique role on the JL. You look at one movie at a time but I'm referring to the universe and how it's evolving. You have Arthur who has a bunch of Aquatic powers (the world is mostly water so that's important) (shown in his solo movie), Supes who is the only powerhouse (shown in JL) and Cyborg who is the tech expert (shown in JL).

I already looked at both of their abilities

Check them out again below

Wonder woman has speed (Mach 4 at best), strength (50 tons lifting), durability (more so than AQ), slow HF, longevity, lasso that works on some people, a sword (cut doomsday), Shield (take hits from Doomsday), possible energy manipulation and an immunity to toxins

Aquaman has swimming speed (Mach 4+ Minimum), strength (1000+ tons lifting Minimum), durability (not as durable as WW) but bulletproof, enhanced vision, trident (easily stabs Steppy and nearly unbreakable), control over all sea life including Kaiju sized monsters (atleast 2), slow HF, water manipulation (limited) & ability to breathe under water

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#530 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizooom: It's definitely not the same as lifting on land. But it could still take over/ under 10,000 tons but probably above 1000 tons. That's all I'm saying.

Honestly I don't know if DC took all factors into account when they signed off on this.

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#531 Edited by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: Yup. Here's the worst part. Everyone on the JL had an excuse for being weaker than expected in JL except her.

Flash was still inexperienced and didn't actually punch anyone (it's been confirmed that he punches at light speed)

Cyborg was also new to his powers but nonetheless was important to helping manage tech, especially alien tech. He helped understand the mother box in a way no one else, including Supes, could.

Aquaman didn't have his armour and trident. His solo movie proves that his trident adds a lot to his power level. And even without it he was implied to be nearly on par with Diana. With it, he gains unique Aquatic abilities that as previously mentioned can come in handy on a planet made mostly of water.

Batman had aged. The DCEU's batman has been implied to be above his prime. But either he got some good feats in tech, skill and intelligence. He has shown off his detective skills and strategic intelligence which makes him important to the team even with Supes on it.

DCEU Diana hasn't shown to have the power, skill, knowledge of magic, wisdom etc to justify her place among the other members besides diversity.

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#532 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: @truethemyscira Nothing you said proves she is useless. She is not the weakest being in the DCEU. She is above AQ. And when there is no water nearby. He has less to offer than WW. If people like Batman, Black Widow, Balck Panthern, Spiderman etc can have a place in superhero teams, i can't see how somebody like WW doesn't have a reason to be there. Not to mention that it was snyder and whedon the ones that made her weaker in JL. So why are you using that crappy movie to say that she will be useless in the DCEU or that WW84 will be bad is beyond me.

Do you understad this logic that DCEU WW has no reason to be part of the jl and she is useless? @archizooom kevinffinity seems to be using that terrible jl movie as some kind of metre for the future of DCEU, and it just doesn't make any sense. I don't see how a crappy movie like jl will affect WW84 and determinate that she will be useless there and in future movies. I can't make any sense out of that.

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#533 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: It doesn't sound like I can convince you otherwise. It's not that important to me to convince others of this but I was just trying to explain my opinion.

Being useful/ serving a clear distinguishable purpose is not the same as being powerful. It's about having unique abilities/ skills that allow you to be an vital asset to the group. I explained this in the message I tagged @truethemyscira. If I'm still not getting my point across then it's ayt. Lets leave this conversation lest I upset someone.

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#534 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

But I find it ironic that a while back I wanted WW:2 to be as good as Winter Soldier but now it might actually be like Winter Soldier without the great fight choreography.

With WW & the first Avenger being period pieces and WW84 & Winter Soldier being spy movies, I wonder whether the 3rd WW (if it happens) will have some dispute between her and another leaguer. If it was to happen it would probably be WW v Arthur.

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#535 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: You are assuming that WW 3 won't happen, even when we already know there are plans for it. I don't want us being overly negative about a film that we haven't even seen. I want good action as much as you do. But the movie can still be great without focusing too much on action. And saying that she won't be useful in her own movie is based on nothing. Obviously there will be action. The final battle will even see WW using a special armor. By your logic people like shazam will also be useless. Because he has powers that others also have. WW brings the magic aspect of things to the table. It is too soon to assume that everything is said and one when it comes to her. Not to mention that DC is only making solo films now. We won't have another jl movie in a while. There is plenty of time to develop WW and her verse before the next jl movie.

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#536 Edited by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I haven't watched Shazam yet. Also note that I'm referring to Diana in the DCEU.

But let's leave that subject.

Patty Jenkins has said that she has already started thinking about WW:3 but it's not a certainty. If this movie tanks anywhere near as hard as JL they probably won't. But it's likely to do well regardless of whether or not it is actually good (atleast critics should like it).

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#537 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

But I understand the importance of optimism

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#538 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: I don't see her as useless in the DCEU. And if we have a franchise, her character and verse will have more and more development. Something we haven't had in the comics for years.

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#539 Posted by Archizooom (2189 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Batman’s already been recast, Henry Cavill’s days as Superman are numbered, that awful Justice League movie is soon to be erased from continuity and there won’t be another one anytime soon so no need to fret about that now

And it’s not because Arthur can control sea-life that he’s any less inconsequential on the team. At the end of the day, anyone apart from Batman or Superman is nothing but chopped bloody liver whose sole purpose is to thin out the herds of parademons

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#540 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Geoff Johns a part of this film? I hope he isn’t.

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#541 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Batman’s already been recast, Henry Cavill’s days as Superman are numbered, that awful Justice League movie is soon to be erased from continuity and there won’t be another one anytime soon so no need to fret about that now

And it’s not because Arthur can control sea-life that he’s any less inconsequential on the team. At the end of the day, anyone apart from Batman or Superman is nothing but chopped bloody liver whose sole purpose is to thin out the herds of parademons

We been knew.

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#542 Posted by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

I strongly disagree but I don't think I can make my point any clearer. So I guess we might as well move on

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#543 Edited by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Why the heck was Geoff Johns "involved" in the first film anyway? He has never been a WW fan and never done anything good for her verse.

I hope Patty fired his ass.

But still, the skepticism continues.

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#544 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

Why the heck was Geoff Johns "involved" in the first film anyway? He has never been a WW fan and never done anything good for her verse.

I hope Patty fired his ass.

But still, the skepticism continues.

He is one of the reasons why WW is portrayed as a super human ena in current comics and the dceu. Let's hope WW84 will not have his influence.

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#545 Edited by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

Geoff barely worked on the second but don't think that means the movie will be any better. In fact it was likely the combination of Patty, Zack, Allan and Johns that led to a decent movie the first time. You shouldn't pretend like everything great can be attributed to one person and all the bad to the rest.

Patty gets all the credit/ blame for this one though. Whatever might you like or hate, it's on her and her alone. The fact that a person that loved JL like WW:84 (I think he was a reviewer) isn't feeling me with confidence.

Speaking of which, has anyone read the rumoured spoilers for WW84

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#546 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

Geoff barely worked on the second but don't think that means the movie will be any better. In fact it was likely the combination of Patty, Zack, Allan and Johns that led to a decent movie the first time. You shouldn't pretend like everything great can be attributed to one person and all the bad to the rest.

Patty gets all the credit/ blame for this one though. Whatever might you like or hate, it's on her and her alone. The fact that a person that loved JL like WW:84 (I think he was a reviewer) isn't feeling me with confidence.

Speaking of which, has anyone read the rumoured spoilers for WW84

Patty can get a pass for doing something positive with WW on the silver screen. geoff and many others have done nothing for her in the comics. Power wise or story wise.

What rumoured spoilers did you read? Can you tell?

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#547 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Geoff barely worked on the second but don't think that means the movie will be any better. In fact it was likely the combination of Patty, Zack, Allan and Johns that led to a decent movie the first time. You shouldn't pretend like everything great can be attributed to one person and all the bad to the rest.

Patty gets all the credit/ blame for this one though. Whatever might you like or hate, it's on her and her alone. The fact that a person that loved JL like WW:84 (I think he was a reviewer) isn't feeling me with confidence.

Speaking of which, has anyone read the rumoured spoilers for WW84

Mess. Do you know where I can see the reviews for the test screening? I heard some were good and some were bad so idk. What are the rumored spoilers?

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#548 Edited by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Apparently this movie could have been released in November and didn't need to get pushed back.

Test screening reviews are all over the place, I don't think you can really trust them.

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#549 Edited by Kevinffinity (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: I don't remember every detail. I don't know if I want to but here goes...

POSSIBLE WONDER WOMAN 1984 SPOILERS BELOW!!!!

Diana: Diana will be working for the British government as an agent of sorts. And she has a mission related to some kind of new Soviet spy.

Maxwell: Maxwell Lord is one of the villains and he'll basically be a wish granting genie instead of a Telepath. But the wishes come at a cost. He is the one that turns Barbara into cheetah.

Cheetah: Cheetah will start out as a fan of Diana then eventually she'll want to be like her. Her wish is granted by Max-genie. She then tries to usurp Diana.

Steve: Maxwell is going to put his soul in Steve's body. Making it harder for Diana to fight him. There's no clear word on exactly how Steve returns.

No word about any big battle or any fight at all. No word on the Bana amazons.

As much as I don't want to believe these rumours, some things much up with what Patty has been saying in interviews. For example, the main reason she set it in the 80s was because of it being a time at which people did what they wanted without worrying about the cost. Sounds like it's doing the agent thing from the early 2000s. The only thing I'm waiting for is for Han Zimmer to finish his WW score. It's the most iconic thing about DCEU WW.

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#550 Edited by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: I know it's not 100% true but it sounds underwhelming and predictable tbh.

Why are they trying to make Maxwell Lord happen for WW, it's not gonna happen. WW's villains are underwhelming as it is (I don't really consider ML a WW villain). Apparently it was Geoff's idea (because he totally has the best sayings when it comes to WW).

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