Wonder Woman 2: Movie Discussion Thread

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#451 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Trust me, that is the least of our problems. Honestly I'm worried it's going to be worse. When the first movie came out, some critics said something like "while the fight scenes were good, this movie isn't about...". So there's a good possibility that in WW84, they might be terrible or non-existent.

I think it was vital for Patty to have strict guidelines from a WW writer (or almost any writer). I think it's important for a movie to be a collaborative effort. And WW84 might be evidence of that. One of the main reasons the first movie didn't do as well overseas was due to the lack of spectacle and fight scenes. I would have hoped DC would have learnt from that. There's a reason AQ is the highest grossing DC movie.

Patty would have been great for a Supes movie which would allow her to focus on the romance between Clark and Lane and she wouldn't need to put as much effort into fight scenes since Supes is more about powerful feats than he is about fight choreography. His personality also fits her story telling. She obviously would have better for and would have preferred to make a Superman movie.

I'll try to remain positive but I think Patty is successfully cutting out the male audience from the WW fan base.

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#452 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: She is Superman who knows martial arts. And Patty nailed the personality. But yeah WW should be a Superhero Romance movie not Spy romance movie. The fight scene and spectacle should be equally important.

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#453 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: There should be a difference in abilities and personality. It becomes a waste if WW is a "Superman but for women" character. Obviously Diana doesn't have heat vision and freeze breath while Clark doesn't have weapons.

Plus there are more than enough characters in the JL that heavily rely on romantic interests. Pretty much every leaguer except Bats and Cyborg. Diana doesn't need to revolve around a love interest. WW should be an "Action Fantasy" or something like that. One of the things that make Diana unique from other leaguers is the fact that she is rooted in Greek Myth.

I think this disparity in who WW is, is partially the result of the first movie.

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#455 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity:

@kevinffinity:Dude, there is going to be a Superman or Justice League movie anytime soon so Diana really don't need any change to distance herself from Superman. Diana is different than superman already. She is not bulletproof, uses martial arts, lasso and bracelets, etc.

Diana and Steve should be a couple but I do agree Steve should not overshadow the story like he is in the movie

The Greek mythology and Feminism should be core of Wonder Woman and yes WW should be epic action fantasy like Aquaman.

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#456 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: First of all, it's not about who is going to have a movie soon cause I was talking about Diana generally. Second of all, even if we only refer to the movies then it's important to realise that general audiences know Supes way better than they do WW regardless of whether or not he has a movie any time soon. But I was referring to WW as a character in general.

Sounds like we kind of agree on the rest.

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#457 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: A lot of Superheroes are Boyscouts including Superman. Wonder Woman, Captain America so I don't think it something to be changed.

Plus other WW charactes like Hippolyta, Artemis, Donna, etc who should have different personality than WW

What do you want WW personality to be?

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#458 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope they downplay the Greek myth in WW, that should only be the background stuff. Let her act like a superhero and be a powerhouse. The Azz debacle was already too much. I’m sick of the use of public domain characters in WW. They have nearly 80 years of WW source material to work with so it’s better just to choose what fits best.

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#459 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Still, nothing about her power level or powers.

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#460 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve got waaaay to much focus in the first film to the point where people actually arguing that it was more of a Steve Trevor film than a WW film...seriously, I hope he stays in his place as a side character in this movie and not try and overshadow Wondy.

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#461 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: Yap. Steve was almost the lead character. Some people watched it simply to stare at Chris Pine.

WW should be a Greek Myth/ superhero hybrid

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#462 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: I don't think her personality should be at any extreme. My preferred personality for the character is more complex than one thing. She should have a nurturing motherly side, a kind of sassy side and a warrior side. Take from that what you will.

Also a lot of people would argue that her personality hasn't been the boycout type for a while.

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#463 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: I don't think her personality should be at any extreme. My preferred personality for the character is more complex than one thing. She should have a nurturing motherly side, a kind of sassy side and a warrior side. Take from that what you will.

Also a lot of people would argue that her personality hasn't been the boycout type for a while.

I mean that I can agree with especially the maternal part

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#464 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: @geraldofvengerberg: We all want great and powerful action in WW. But here is the thing. Let's say that the movie doesn't have action as epic as WW has the potential to deliver. Then we could say that maybe Patty is not the best when it comes to the action part. But at least she can do a good job in other areas. While in the comics, WW has been underwhelming in terms of action, power level. While also having mediocre stories with weak character development. This has been a problem for most of this decade. At least with Patty one can be sure she cares about the character and creating compelling stories for the character. That is more than what most writers have done for WW in the comics this decade. I mean DC editors like didio and others are always getting in the way. Forcing things like twin male brother(that is apparently more powerful than WW, Daddy Zeus, etc) Or total lack of interest like with current run. Editors are not stopping gww from portraying WW as an underwhelming super human warrior woman. When she should portray her as the powerhouse she is meant to be. When you read most of WW this decade. She feels weak, with little character development and a lifeless personality. I am sure we will get better action in WW84 than what most writers(finch, azz, gww, etc) have given us in WW title this decade. Patty may have an approach that doesn't focus on action as much as we would like. But DC is the one that gives WW a bad treatment in general. Patty cares more about the character as a whole than many of the writers we have had this decade.

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#465 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

What if Jenkins is restricted in what she can do with WW because of the higher up in the DCEU or other reasons? Some things just seem kinda shady to me.

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#466 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira said:

What if Jenkins is restricted in what she can do with WW because of the higher up in the DCEU or other reasons? Some things just seem kinda shady to me.

That could be a reason too. Don't forget that in the comics, many of the bad things that happen in the WW verse is because of heads at DC forcing things.

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#467 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: I don't think so. She was the writer, director and producer of the movie. She had the power to hire and fire whomever she wanted. I think it's fair to assume WB gave her all the power she needed. This is in EVERY way her movie. No one else had as much of a say...not Zack, not Geoff, not Allan... not anyone.

Sorry if I sound aggressive. It's just that I don't want to see people looking for someone else to blame when I've been telling them for months that this would happen.

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#468 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: I don't think so. She was the writer, director and producer of the movie. She had the power to hire and fire whomever she wanted. I think it's fair to assume WB gave her all the power she needed. This is in EVERY way her movie. No one else had as much of a say...not Zack, not Geoff, not Allan... not anyone.

Sorry if I sound aggressive. It's just that I don't want to see people looking for someone else to blame when I've been telling them for months that this would happen.

Absolutely, not to mention she or Gal can go public if there is any pressure from DC to nerf her character. WW can't even fly

Patty is more into Drama and Romance than action or CGI.

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#469 Edited by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I don't even know how to express my disappointment. Let me put it this way... "I would rather have 10 JLs than what I'm terrified WW84 is". And I'm the same person that joined this site trying to make sense of WW in JL (hence the thread about WW's role in the JL). I would say "I told you so if this didn't bother me as much". This movie might turn out to be what I've always feared it would, worse than JL. For all Zack's flaws, he gave Diana her best feats and fight choreography in the DCEU.

I appreciate your optimism when in comes to Patty. You're probably the first one to her defence and I'm glad you'll atleast enjoy the movie.

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#470 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg said:
@kevinffinity said:

@truethemyscira: I don't think so. She was the writer, director and producer of the movie. She had the power to hire and fire whomever she wanted. I think it's fair to assume WB gave her all the power she needed. This is in EVERY way her movie. No one else had as much of a say...not Zack, not Geoff, not Allan... not anyone.

Sorry if I sound aggressive. It's just that I don't want to see people looking for someone else to blame when I've been telling them for months that this would happen.

Absolutely, not to mention she or Gal can go public if there is any pressure from DC to nerf her character. WW can't even fly

Patty is more into Drama and Romance than action or CGI.

At least Patty is honest and says action is not her priority. What is the excuse for all the underwhelming moments in WW this decade, when so many writers keep talking about how she is the greatest fighter, how powerful she is and never show it?

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#471 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I don't even know how to express my disappointment. Let me put it this way... "I would rather have 10 JLs than what I'm terrified WW84 is". And I'm the same person that joined this site trying to make sense of WW in JL (hence the thread about WW's role in the JL). I would say "I told you so if this didn't bother me as much". This movie might turn out to be what I've always feared it would, worse than JL. For all Zack's flaws, he gave Diana her best feats and fight choreography in the DCEU.

I appreciate your optimism when in comes to Patty. You're probably the first one to her defence and I'm glad you'll atleast enjoy the movie.

There is no way WW84 will be as bad as jl. The jl movie made WW and everybody foddder to Superman. They couldn't do anything without him. I am 100% sure that WW will not be useless or unable to face the villain in her own film.

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#472 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: still does not excuse for Patty and Gal betraying WW. The movie is gonna make money like the first one but its gonna hurt WW long term power level wise.

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#473 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio
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#474 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: still does not excuse for Patty and Gal betraying WW. The movie is gonna make money like the first one but its gonna hurt WW long term power level wise.

WW's power level has been permanently damaged since 2011. DC has treated her poorly for years.

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#475 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m scared for this film and what it’ll do to Wondy. I don’t even trust Patty Jenkins because everything we’ve gotten from the higher ups in the movies and comics has just all been lip service.

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#476 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17621 posts) - - Show Bio

WW stans are never satisfied 😂

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#477 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Honestly, if Cheetah faces Diana without any decent feats then it only makes her worse than useless.

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#478 Edited by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@ready_4_madness: Let’s see them depower Superman and take away his ability to fly. Let’s see the outrage then.

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#479 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity said:

@agent41: Honestly, if Cheetah faces Diana without any decent feats then it only makes her worse than useless.

@truethemyscira

You mean like it has happened in the comics many times already?

I do want good action. But the state of WW verse is not Patty's fault. Let's say her vision doesn't involve a lot of action. That would be a flaw in our eyes since we want good action. But as a whole the film can still be good because of the story, character development etc. Something that comic WW has been lacking on top of lacking good action.

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#480 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

I am tired of crumbs.

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#481 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Exactly. Movies reach a much wider audience and thus Patty had an opportunity to change people's opinion of WW giving DC no choice but to conform. She messed up. I think it's better to accept and get used to Diana's inferiority. The sooner the better.

Honestly, she might be below AQ in terms of raw power.

Yes. I've never been as disappointed with a piece of entertainment than I was with JL but if I've learnt anything being a WW fan in the past 3 years is that things can always get worse. DC (and in this case Patty) always finds a way.

I don't even care that much about flight or whether she is close to Supes in power level. I just wanted her to be useful. But I guess that's too much to ask for.

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#482 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17621 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: Superman fans have more of a reason to be outraged that WW fans. WW fans seem to only care about power levels.

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#483 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity said:

@geraldofvengerberg: Exactly. Movies reach a much wider audience and thus Patty had an opportunity to change people's opinion of WW giving DC no choice but to conform. She messed up. I think it's better to accept and get used to Diana's inferiority. The sooner the better.

Honestly, she might be below AQ in terms of raw power.

Yes. I've never been as disappointed with a piece of entertainment than I was with JL but if I've learnt anything being a WW fan in the past 3 years is that things can always get worse. DC (and in this case Patty) always finds a way.

I don't even care that much about flight or whether she is close to Supes in power level. I just wanted her to be useful. But I guess that's too much to ask for.

What makes you say that WW will be useless in her own movie? Please let's not exagerate.

Patty may not focus on action as much. But she is not the one who has been making WW decline in power all this time. Her power has been underwhelming in the comics for almost a decade now. Movie WW was never going to come close to the power she has shown in the comics. If DC cared about her, they wouldn't have been dropping her power since 2011. snyder and company wouldn't have focused more on DCEU WW gear to cause serious damage than in her actual powers. The decline started way before Patty, and continues with or without Patty.

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#484 Posted by Supermanthor (22700 posts) - - Show Bio

Movie will 88 to 94 % on RT

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#485 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: Superman fans have more of a reason to be outraged that WW fans. WW fans seem to only care about power levels.

Power levels is a big topic because for many years WW's power has been dropping, and the passivity in the way that she is being writen is something you won't see in other big names like Batman and Superman. Fans simply want DC to put their money where their mouth is. They keep talking about how extremely powerful she is. But at best they give us a super human xena.

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#486 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17621 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: that’s not on DC, that’s on the writers. Their has to be consistent runs where her power levels don’t fluctuate, not just within the comics but all mediums. And despite it being important, WW stans act like power levels is the most important thing but in reality it’s not.

I consider myself to be a WW fan so I get your perspective but there’s also other things about the character that need to be improved but power levels is the only complaint I ever see.

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#487 Posted by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: that’s not on DC, that’s on the writers. Their has to be consistent runs where her power levels don’t fluctuate, not just within the comics but all mediums. And despite it being important, WW stans act like power levels is the most important thing but in reality it’s not.

I consider myself to be a WW fan so I get your perspective but there’s also other things about the character that need to be improved but power levels is the only complaint I ever see.

We do talk about other topics like her personality, lack of a consistent supporting cast. Lack of use of her villains, etc. And remember a hero is as good as their villains. WW villains are often treated poorly just like her. Consistentcy is lacking. In power level and the other aspects mentioned.

And yes, it's on DC. They allow WW being portrayed in a passive way. In a way where she just feels like a super huma warrior woman and not a powerhouse. And honestly, her power level hasn't been fluctuating. She simply isn't strong enough. It's not like we see her moving a planet and the next issue she struggles to lift a car. It's that her power just feels underwhelming in general. See current run for example. We haven't seen her beat any big opponent on her own.

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#488 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity: So you don’t care about WW’s core powers? Why?

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#489 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio

@ready_4_madness: The movie character cannot even fly. Don't you see how nerfed she is. Will there be Superman, Shazam, or Thor movie where the character can't even fly.

The Amazons neither have powerful magic or technology. For us WW fans power level is important. WW is meant to be powerful character not Black Widow or Batwoman

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#490 Edited by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Why the teasing? Why the crumbs? Why the disrespect towards the character and the fans?

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#491 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17621 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Black Widow and Batwoman wouldn’t be able to hold their own against Doomsday, they’re nowhere near Wonder Woman.

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#492 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17621 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: those other topics are discussed about once every blue moon, I see complaints about her power levels almost every week.

Again I see your perspective in terms of her power levels. Imo her power levels have fluctuated, the scale of her action is not as consistent as Superman, Green Lantern, Flash etc.

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#493 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@ready_4_madness said:

@geraldofvengerberg: Black Widow and Batwoman wouldn’t be able to hold their own against Doomsday, they’re nowhere near Wonder Woman.

The problem here is: That when we talk about power level. We are talking about other aspects at the same time. Why? Because WW as a character has become a more generic warrior woman. Where her sword and shield take more attention than her actual skills, powers and classic and iconic bracelets and lasso. She never even took a hit from Doomsday without her shield. And didn't do anything to him without the sword. Classic WW would have fought in a more unique way. Using her lasso to BFR. Using her speed advantage combined with her great strength and her unique amazon combat training to damage Doomsday. She is far above peak human level, but still not a powerhouse like she used to. Especially in movies, where they have made her more dependant on sword and shield than in the current comics. I can accept that movies will never come close to show the full potential of characters as we see in the comics. But in the comics she also feels underwhelming and a generic warrior woman. Too much sword and shield. Hardly any top level fighting skills and no great showings of her so called Godly strength, speed, durability, etc. WW's world is meant to feel epic and powerful. And i haven't felt that way in a long time.

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#494 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (669 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Black Widow and Batwoman wouldn’t be able to hold their own against Doomsday, they’re nowhere near Wonder Woman.

Why can't she fly?

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#495 Posted by TrueThemyscira (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@ready_4_madness: WW has been underwhelming for nearly a decade in the comics. In action, personality, feats, villains, etc. It’s safe to say that DC themselves are the ones that are completely screwing her over. She has no consistent rogues, no consistent powers, no consistent personality and no consistent origin. It’s a mess. You won’t see this happening to other big names in comics. Bye.

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#496 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17621 posts) - - Show Bio
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#497 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17621 posts) - - Show Bio
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#498 Posted by Kevinffinity (251 posts) - - Show Bio

@truethemyscira: I added the words "that much" because I do care but I am willing to settle for anything that gives her a role. I am tired of her being useless in the movies. She may not be much of a powerhouse anymore in the comics but she isn't fodder either.

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#499 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (17621 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41:

OOOOOOOH! It makes sense now, you want her to use her shield and sword less. That doesn’t mean she’s not powerful though, it’s just more logical that she’d use a sword and shield, because she’s a warrior. Classic just had a different approach, different fighting style.

Again I get your perspective and do agree with the fact that they need to amp up her power levels, but at the same time I would still like it if she carried on using the shield and the sword. DC do need to balance it better, that’s undeniable.

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#500 Edited by agent41 (15963 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevinffinity said:

@truethemyscira: I added the words "that much" because I do care but I am willing to settle for anything that gives her a role. I am tired of her being useless in the movies. She may not be much of a powerhouse anymore in the comics but she isn't fodder either.

In the comics she barely does anything. In jl she is just there. In gww, everytime she faces a big opponent she fails or somebody else comes in and end the fight for her. See Diana vs Ares, Diana vs stone giants, Diana vs giant minotaur. And like previous runs, gww run doesn't feel like Diana's story. It feels like Maggie's and the Wonder Sword. I keep waiting that Diana will take charge of the story instead of following Maggie and others around. At least we can be sure that Diana will be the center of WW84. And she won't be useless.

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