Who is more fake in their "respect" for the character.

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#1 Edited by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

didio-geof-scott snyder.

They all have filled their mouth more than once talking about how she is a self empowerment icon and powerhouse. But they have taken away her origin, made her weaker. Turned her into short temper warrior woman. Allowed the amazons to be turned into men hating rapists and murderers. Created a male wondy that is appearently above her. They treat her villains like trash, etc. Who is the worst?

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#3 Posted by tensor (8590 posts) - - Show Bio

Hard to pick one for me .

They went down a new direction which is not good reminds me of Thor where they just turned it upside down.

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#4 Posted by Klaus (2041 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:

didio-geof-scott snyder.

They all have filled their mouth more than once talking about how she is a self empowerment icon and powerhouse. But they have taken away her origin, made her weaker. Turned her into short temper warrior woman. Allowed the amazons to be turned into men hating rapists and murderers. Created a male wondy that is appearently above her. They treat her villains like trash, etc. Who is the worst of this cancer trinity for WW?

Geoff Johns consistently portrays Wonder Woman as a powerhouse. I prefer the daughter of Zeus origin better than the made from clay origin. I don't think she is short tempered, I think she just isn't afraid to let her feelings known. The raping, murdering man hating amazons were retconned to be fake illusions. Jason was consistently shown to be weaker and dumber than Diana. And I don't think her villains have been treated like trash, I just believe they have barely been shown. Grail interests me far more than the other villains, and the latest writer on Wonder Woman is treating her like trash so there is that.

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#5 Edited by Stahlflamme (5851 posts) - - Show Bio

@klaus: That they rerconned it really doesn't change the fact that they originally established it for real... and Geof Johns potrayed Wondie in the New52 Justice League initially with the intelligence of a child, ready to destroy everything around her of Steve Trevor did not hold her in check and with a murder boner that let her want to kill everyone except a villain she had a personal relationship with like a huge hypocrite, not to mention that she tried to convince Superman to start killing too. She was repeatedly acknowledged as a mass murderer, would lash out and physically assault her teammates at the slightest reason and for all the dialoge that said how she was just as powerful as Superman the plot repeatedly either felt the need to handicap Superman and not her so other characters could shine or would go to the point were characters told Superman he was the only one who could do something with her right next to him, even if it only required powers Wonder Woman had as well.

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#6 Edited by masterwitcher88 (1405 posts) - - Show Bio

@klaus said:
@agent41 said:

didio-geof-scott snyder.

They all have filled their mouth more than once talking about how she is a self empowerment icon and powerhouse. But they have taken away her origin, made her weaker. Turned her into short temper warrior woman. Allowed the amazons to be turned into men hating rapists and murderers. Created a male wondy that is appearently above her. They treat her villains like trash, etc. Who is the worst of this cancer trinity for WW?

Geoff Johns consistently portrays Wonder Woman as a powerhouse.

Proof?

I prefer the daughter of Zeus origin better than the made from clay origin.

Why?

I don't think she is short tempered, I think she just isn't afraid to let her feelings known.

She nearly killed Green Lantern for a very poor reason and started a fight with everyone on the league for no reason in one issue. All she ever talked about was killing her enemies or stabbing them with a sword. She beat up Metallo for info on Luther even though she has a LASSO OF TRUTH! She even did that with the Furies! Its ridiculous.

The raping, murdering man hating amazons were retconned to be fake illusions.

True, but that's not what everyone that doesn't read WW thinks.

Jason was consistently shown to be weaker and dumber than Diana.

No he wasn't, he was consistently being given easy wins simply because the plot demanded it. He had all the powers of every God, Tricked the Dark Gods because reasons, went from betraying WW to joining her in a single issue, and was only given attention because he was her brother. He literally stated that he was faster then her.

Terrible character.

And I don't think her villains have been treated like trash, I just believe they have barely been shown.

The problem is both. They're never shown and treated like trash.

Grail interests me far more than the other villains

Why?

the latest writer on Wonder Woman is treating her like trash so there is that.

How is GWW treating Diana like trash? I can understand not giving her powerful feats but, I like the story. Diana questioned her self once. Ares, her opposite, made her think; Dear GOD the HUMANITY!!!! I'm glad because she held on to her beliefs against opposition and showed Ares the error of his ways. The one problem I have is how depowered she and Ares feel, but that's a problem since Nu52 and I will not solely blame GWW on that.

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#7 Posted by JamesWayne (992 posts) - - Show Bio

@klaus: yeah I would say Geoff’s initial characterization of her was way off, like a really aggressive kind of crazy warrior murderer,but as the series went on he really started to get the character.

In terms of power, she never did anything crazy when he wrote but he’s not a crazy feats writer in general so I also thing he wrote her powerful in that respect

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#8 Edited by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@stahlflamme said:

@klaus: That they rerconned it really doesn't change the fact that they originally established it for real... and Geof Johns potrayed Wondie in the New52 Justice League initially with the intelligence of a child, ready to destroy everything around her of Steve Trevor did not hold her in check and with a murder boner that let her want to kill everyone except a villain she had a personal relationship with like a huge hypocrite, not to mention that she tried to convince Superman to start killing too. She was repeatedly acknowledged as a mass murderer, would lash out and physically assault her teammates at the slightest reason and for all the dialoge that said how she was just as powerful as Superman the plot repeatedly either felt the need to handicap Superman and not her so other characters could shine or would go to the point were characters told Superman he was the only one who could do something with her right next to him, even if it only required powers Wonder Woman had as well.

Pretty much this. geof is a lot of talk but not real showings. She never did anything big under him. She is weaker than Pre 52 WW under his hands. He turned her into a ready to kill everybody in my path type of warrior.

Her villains are treated like crap. Cheetah was defeated by green arrow at one point in new 52, now Cheetah defeated by batman. In a special suit but still. A character powered up by a God that will be the big villain of the next Wonder Woman film is not being treated properly. It is not much better with other villains from the WW rogue gallery.

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#9 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@klaus: yeah I would say Geoff’s initial characterization of her was way off, like a really aggressive kind of crazy warrior murderer,but as the series went on he really started to get the character.

In terms of power, she never did anything crazy when he wrote but he’s not a crazy feats writer in general so I also thing he wrote her powerful in that respect

All of a sudden nobody is a crazy feat writer when they write WW. Yet snyder, geof, azz, etc have writen much bigger feats for other characters. With WW? oh no they are not big feat writers. What a coincidence right? @masterwitcher88

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#10 Edited by masterwitcher88 (1405 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:
@jameswayne said:

@klaus: yeah I would say Geoff’s initial characterization of her was way off, like a really aggressive kind of crazy warrior murderer,but as the series went on he really started to get the character.

In terms of power, she never did anything crazy when he wrote but he’s not a crazy feats writer in general so I also thing he wrote her powerful in that respect

All of a sudden nobody is a crazy feat writer when they write WW. Yet snyder, geof, azz, etc have writen much bigger feats for other characters. With WW? oh no they are not big feat writers. What a coincidence right? @masterwitcher88

He just meant Geoff which I kind of disagree on. But Snyder and Azz have no excuse.

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#11 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:
@jameswayne said:

@klaus: yeah I would say Geoff’s initial characterization of her was way off, like a really aggressive kind of crazy warrior murderer,but as the series went on he really started to get the character.

In terms of power, she never did anything crazy when he wrote but he’s not a crazy feats writer in general so I also thing he wrote her powerful in that respect

All of a sudden nobody is a crazy feat writer when they write WW. Yet snyder, geof, azz, etc have writen much bigger feats for other characters. With WW? oh no they are not big feat writers. What a coincidence right? @masterwitcher88

He just meant Geoff which I kind of disagree on. But Snyder and Azz have no excuse.

Trust me. geof can do better feat wise than what he did with WW.

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#12 Posted by Pokeysteve (12025 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not caught up on her books at the moment. Not excited to get reading either after this thread haha.

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#13 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@klaus: @masterwitcher88: @Pokeysteve: Big events by geoff johns usually always never use Diana in any impacting way. He's made Superman, Batman, The Flash, Aquaman etc important, but not her. Where is the powerhouse? geof doesn't show it. Even booster gold seems to do more than she does. In Doomsday Clock it just continues the trend. You'd think a woman with Godly powers might have something to contribute to help saving the world sometimes, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

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#14 Edited by Kevinffinity (211 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 @klaus: Hmmm I don't hate or even dislike some of the New 52 changes.

Origin - At first I liked the Daughter of Zeus origin simply because it made her a demigodess and provided some interesting story telling opportunities as well as the possibility of Wonder Woman getting new powers as a result of her divine heritage. As of late, I've liked the made from clay origin because it's more unique. I understand why they went with the former in the DCEU though (it's simpler). Overall I don't mind which of the two origins she has that much. Both have pros and cons.

Powers - I think Wonder woman's power levels in the new 52 were far higher than what we've had in the past two years. I understand she wasn't as powerful as she was pre new 52 but she had a god mode that handled "Doomsday-Superman" in his own event. Overall she was pretty powerful especially in her god mode. I'm also into diversifying her power-set. Other characters were also weaker than their pre new 52 versions. While Clark was arguably stronger, he certainly appeared to be a lot slower. Aquaman got "comparatively" more powerful but kind of lost his telepathy.

Amazons - I have no idea why they chose what they chose honestly. This was the most baffling decision they made. However it hasn't been used anywhere else since.

Diana's personality - I think calling her a mass murder/ Warrior woman is a bit of an exaggeration. Yes. She was more Violet than I would have liked and as a result she came off as "less intelligent". However I don't mind her being more aggressive than Superman and Flash.

If I had to pick one, I'd pick Scott because he is the only one that might actually dislike the character. The rest probably only like certain aspects of the character.

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#15 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 @klaus: Hmmm I don't hate or even dislike some of the New 52 changes.

Origin - At first I liked the Daughter of Zeus origin simply because it made her a demigodess and provided some interesting story telling opportunities as well as the possibility of Wonder Woman getting new powers as a result of her divine heritage. As of late, I've liked the made from clay origin because it's more unique. I understand why they went with the former in the DCEU though (it's simpler). Overall I don't mind which of the two origins she has that much. Both have pros and cons.

Powers - I think Wonder woman's power levels in the new 52 were far higher than what we've had in the past two years. I understand she wasn't as powerful as she was pre new 52 but she had a god mode that handled "Doomsday-Superman" in his own event. Overall she was pretty powerful especially in her god mode. I'm also into diversifying her power-set. Other characters were also weaker than their pre new 52 versions. While Clark was arguably stronger, he certainly appeared to be a lot slower. Aquaman got "comparatively" more powerful but kind of lost his telepathy.

Amazons - I have no idea why they chose what they chose honestly. This was the most baffling decision they made. However it hasn't been used anywhere else since.

Diana's personality - I think calling her a mass murder/ Warrior woman is a bit of an exaggeration. Yes. She was more Violet than I would have liked and as a result she came off as "less intelligent". However I don't mind her being more aggressive than Superman and Flash.

If I had to pick one, I'd pick Scott because he is the only one that might actually dislike the character. The rest probably only like certain aspects of the character.

She never handled SuperDoom. Sure she wasn't owned. But she didn't do much either. We never truly got quantifiable feats for her in God Mode.

She was portrayed as warrior woman. Somebody that likes to kill her enemiees as she said. Somebody that can kill her own peers. See her fight with Green Lantern.

Where is the proof that these writers like some parts of her character? She has never been important or very powerful in any of the books they have writen with her in them. They love the generic angry warrior woman attitude, and use her own villains as fodder. I don't see any respect for her verse.

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#16 Posted by JamesWayne (992 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: yeah exactly I just meant Geoff. imo his hal Jordan had crazy good feats but he had to write the guy for 9 years. you mentioned batman? batman under Geoff does not have any crazy feat showings. hes been important storywise though, like wonder woman

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#17 Posted by SaintWildcard (21890 posts) - - Show Bio

@klaus: yeah I would say Geoff’s initial characterization of her was way off, like a really aggressive kind of crazy warrior murderer,but as the series went on he really started to get the character.

In terms of power, she never did anything crazy when he wrote but he’s not a crazy feats writer in general so I also thing he wrote her powerful in that respect

Superman got a bad shake as well (but I honestly hated his actual Superman run in the N52 as well). I had an interesting conversation with a DC artist that stated how Johns wanted to write "Millennial" Superman, but he himself isn't a millennial so it came off really weird. I honestly don't get why the reboot made Johns so off his game. The man is just past his prime. Bumbled Wonder Woman, Superman... the SM/WW relationship, just a bumbler that guy.

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#18 Edited by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterwitcher88: By the way. Wasn't during priest run in jl, that she threatened some people by crushing a piece of metal and throwing it their way to get some info? So with that we have another example of Post Flashpoint WW showing us that she prefers to beat people up for info, even though she has a freaking lasso of truth. Funny that this attitude is usually shown around people that are totally fodder to her. Because we never see much of this "unstoppable" powerhouse warrior pose when big threats are around. During those times she is usually just background while somebody else saves the day. So basically all of these writers mentioned in this thread, simply don't care about her. They usually give her a bad, violent attitude, make her weaker and have her do nothing important to help save the day.

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#19 Posted by masterwitcher88 (1405 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:

@masterwitcher88: By the way. Wasn't during priest run in jl, that she threatened some people by crushing a piece of metal and throwing it their way to get some info? So with that we have another example of Post Flashpoint WW showing us that she prefers to beat people up for info, even though she has a freaking lasso of truth. Funny that this attitude is usually shown around people that are totally fodder to her. Because we never see much of this "unstoppable" powerhouse warrior pose when big threats are around. During those times she is usually just background while somebody else saves the day. So basically all of these writers mentioned in this thread, simply don't care about her. They usually give her a bad, violent attitude, make her weaker and have her do nothing important to help save the day.

Different writer but it was in rebirth so.

You should see what King did with the lasso though....

No Caption Provided

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#20 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:

@masterwitcher88: By the way. Wasn't during priest run in jl, that she threatened some people by crushing a piece of metal and throwing it their way to get some info? So with that we have another example of Post Flashpoint WW showing us that she prefers to beat people up for info, even though she has a freaking lasso of truth. Funny that this attitude is usually shown around people that are totally fodder to her. Because we never see much of this "unstoppable" powerhouse warrior pose when big threats are around. During those times she is usually just background while somebody else saves the day. So basically all of these writers mentioned in this thread, simply don't care about her. They usually give her a bad, violent attitude, make her weaker and have her do nothing important to help save the day.

Different writer but it was in rebirth so.

You should see what King did with the lasso though....

No Caption Provided

Yeah i already saw it. heros in crisis has been crap. They had the trinity jobbing to harly queen. So i'm not surprised.

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#21 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (2128 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:

didio-geof-scott snyder.

They all have filled their mouth more than once talking about how she is a self empowerment icon and powerhouse. But they have taken away her origin, made her weaker. Turned her into short temper warrior woman. Allowed the amazons to be turned into men hating rapists and murderers. Created a male wondy that is appearently above her. They treat her villains like trash, etc. Who is the worst of this cancer trinity for WW?

I gotta go with Didio he was the free radical that mutated the cells that metastasized and are probably inoperable. It's a job for the Purple Healing Ray.

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#22 Edited by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:
@agent41 said:

didio-geof-scott snyder.

They all have filled their mouth more than once talking about how she is a self empowerment icon and powerhouse. But they have taken away her origin, made her weaker. Turned her into short temper warrior woman. Allowed the amazons to be turned into men hating rapists and murderers. Created a male wondy that is appearently above her. They treat her villains like trash, etc. Who is the worst of this cancer trinity for WW?

I gotta go with Didio he was the free radical that mutated the cells that metastasized and are probably inoperable. It's a job for the Purple Healing Ray.

Truly a group of writers that always mess with Wonder Woman's legacy.

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#23 Edited by Kevinffinity (211 posts) - - Show Bio

I wasn't going to mention this but I feel it's important.

First off, I want to emphasise the importance of a title. Before the New 52 (or atleast before batman said it), Wonder Woman wasn't the world's greatest ANYTHING. Sure she was a symbol of female empowerment but combat wise not really anything. You could say she was the third or fourth most powerful member after Superman, Martian manhunter and the Flash (arguably GL as well). Giving Wonder Woman a title as the world's greatest something is a much bigger deal than you think it is. She may not have acted like it all the time but it's still a defining aspect of the character. It's mostly why I became a fan of the character. If a particular writer doesn't give Diana the feats to prove it, then another will as long as she has the title. My first topic on this thread was about Diana's place in the league and a lot of people quoted the greatest warrior thing.

To put it simpler, think of it as a step by step process. By calling her DC's greatest warrior, it lays the foundation. The next writer can then go a head and show it. This doesn't mean that she's going to body Superman and his rogues because that's never going to happen. It's unwise to just pretend like the title doesn't mean anything.

But that's also not the only title she received. She and Supes were often referred to as the two most powerful beings on the planet. Supes is often referred to as the most powerful superhero on earth but on a planet with Dr Fate, Cap Atom and even Martian manhunter that's not true. Regardless of all of that, that title still means something.

Secondly, the weaponry... I'm not a fan of Wonder Woman using weapons all the time but she definitely should occasionally. There are multiple advantage for example to the atom cutting blade. But the most important was that it added to her power level. Diana might never punch as hard as Supes but she has a sword that can do more damage than anything else on the team. An example is the Thor vs Diana argument. Alot of sites have done the match up and claim Diana would win due to her sword. Even at post crisis power levels, she couldn't dish out that level of damage. Are swords used to kill or injure? Sure, but that's what heroes have been doing for years. Diana's punches don't exactly tickle. She shouldn't use it all the time but it should definitely be an option in her arsenal. Because it's the most powerful thing she has or might ever have.

The fight with GL wasn't that big a deal. She got emotional cause she wanted to save Steve, it's the same thing she did in the movie. They probably just needed an action moment. Honestly, the fact that she did it for a reason and got some good feats in doing so isn't all bad.

Everything has its up and down sides. Most Wonder Woman fans have different opinions on what the character is or should be because of how often she changes and that's why writers have a hard time writing her. She isn't always going to be perfect for everybody. I think compromise is the way to go cause things could always get worse.

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#24 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

I wasn't going to mention this but I feel it's important.

First off, I want to emphasise the importance of a title. Before the New 52 (or atleast before batman said it), Wonder Woman wasn't the world's greatest ANYTHING. Sure she was a symbol of female empowerment but combat wise not really anything. You could say she was the third or fourth most powerful member after Superman, Martian manhunter and the Flash (arguably GL as well). Giving Wonder Woman a title as the world's greatest something is a much bigger deal than you think it is. She may not have acted like it all the time but it's still a defining aspect of the character. It's mostly why I became a fan of the character. If a particular writer doesn't give Diana the feats to prove it, then another will as long as she has the title. My first topic on this thread was about Diana's place in the league and a lot of people quoted the greatest warrior thing.

To put it simpler, think of it as a step by step process. By calling her DC's greatest warrior, it lays the foundation. The next writer can then go a head and show it. This doesn't mean that she's going to body Superman and his rogues because that's never going to happen. It's unwise to just pretend like the title doesn't mean anything.

But that's also not the only title she received. She and Supes were often referred to as the two most powerful beings on the planet. Supes is often referred to as the most powerful superhero on earth but on a planet with Dr Fate, Cap Atom and even Martian manhunter that's not true. Regardless of all of that, that title still means something.

Secondly, the weaponry... I'm not a fan of Wonder Woman using weapons all the time but she definitely should occasionally. There are multiple advantage for example to the atom cutting blade. But the most important was that it added to her power level. Diana might never punch as hard as Supes but she has a sword that can do more damage than anything else on the team. An example is the Thor vs Diana argument. Alot of sites have done the match up and claim Diana would win due to her sword. Even at post crisis power levels, she couldn't dish out that level of damage. Are swords used to kill or injure? Sure, but that's what heroes have been doing for years. Diana's punches don't exactly tickle. She shouldn't use it all the time but it should definitely be an option in her arsenal. Because it's the most powerful thing she has or might ever have.

The fight with GL wasn't that big a deal. She got emotional cause she wanted to save Steve, it's the same thing she did in the movie. They probably just needed an action moment. Honestly, the fact that she did it for a reason and got some good feats in doing so isn't all bad.

Everything has its up and down sides. Most Wonder Woman fans have different opinions on what the character is or should be because of how often she changes and that's why writers have a hard time writing her. She isn't always going to be perfect for everybody. I think compromise is the way to go cause things could always get worse.

Wonder Woman has been called one of the most powerful beings along with Superman for decades. And the greatest melee fighter in the world, also before N52. The difference is that before N52. She actually had feats to prove those statements. Plus, being a warrior is not all there is to the character. And if they are going to portay her as a warrior bitch that likes killing and stabbing her peers, like in N52 where she could easily get angry and attack other jl members, they can keep it. Pre 52 WW is a bad warrior powerhouse, and she didn't need to act like a female kratos to prove it. And the actual problem is not the fans. It' the writers that don't mantain consistency in her portrayal. They are the ones who have to be consistent. The reason for the inconsistencies is that is very obvious that WW shouldn't act like geoff and others portray her, angry and eager for battle as the first solution to anthing. So other writers, usually the ones from her own title. Feel the need to balance things out. And that's how many times, you end up with a WW in her solo title, and a completely different one outside of it. The truth is that fans don't ask too much. We just want balance. A warrior, but one with codes that cares about lives. A powerhouse that is compasioate but ready to go all out in battle if she has to. Balance, it is not that difficult.

What do you guys think? @masterwitcher88@somayareece

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#25 Posted by masterwitcher88 (1405 posts) - - Show Bio

I wasn't going to mention this but I feel it's important.

First off, I want to emphasise the importance of a title. Before the New 52 (or atleast before batman said it), Wonder Woman wasn't the world's greatest ANYTHING. Sure she was a symbol of female empowerment but combat wise not really anything. You could say she was the third or fourth most powerful member after Superman, Martian manhunter and the Flash (arguably GL as well). Giving Wonder Woman a title as the world's greatest something is a much bigger deal than you think it is. She may not have acted like it all the time but it's still a defining aspect of the character. It's mostly why I became a fan of the character. If a particular writer doesn't give Diana the feats to prove it, then another will as long as she has the title. My first topic on this thread was about Diana's place in the league and a lot of people quoted the greatest warrior thing.

Titles are meaningless. You can be Grandmaster God of the Universe but if Batman can beat you then your nothing. All that title did was make it more impressive for Batman to beat you. If you have NOTHING to back up that title then the existence of that title is consistently put into question.

The fact is Diana does have titles... Wonder Woman, Princess (at one point she was Queen), Champion of the Amazons, World's greatest melee fighter, There was an entire hym to her Stronger the Hercules, Swifter then Hermes, as Wise as Athena, as Beautiful as Aphrodite but I guess people forgot about the first three and just cared about the last one.

Hell, I can make up titles for her.... The Amazing Amazon, The Undaunted, Once-Princess Once-Goddess, Oath-Keeper, Peace-Maker, War-Ender, She who Speaks Truth, Breaker of Chains, Battle-Eagle. Now she's DC's greatest warrior.

Titles are more then just Worlds Greatest whatever. But what's more important is that those titles mean something, they have proof behind them. Diana earned those titles why is she champion, because she literally bested every other amazon in trial by combat. And even then that title is meaningless because the Amazons are constantly hailed as DC's greatest warriors and they have little to nothing to show for it.

To put it simpler, think of it as a step by step process. By calling her DC's greatest warrior, it lays the foundation. The next writer can then go a head and show it. This doesn't mean that she's going to body Superman and his rogues because that's never going to happen. It's unwise to just pretend like the title doesn't mean anything.

If the next writer bothered to care. We've had what, 5-6 different writers since Nu52 started? and only like 2 actually bothered to put some weight behind those words. I cant count Rucka cause his story was more narrative in nature rather then action oriented. Its unwise to pretend a title is full of meaning when there is little to nothing shown for it.

But that's also not the only title she received. She and Supes were often referred to as the two most powerful beings on the planet. Supes is often referred to as the most powerful superhero on earth but on a planet with Dr Fate, Cap Atom and even Martian manhunter that's not true. Regardless of all of that, that title still means something.

It means something because people took the time and effort to make it mean something. Guess what no one is doing with Diana.

Secondly, the weaponry... I'm not a fan of Wonder Woman using weapons all the time but she definitely should occasionally. There are multiple advantage for example to the atom cutting blade. But the most important was that it added to her power level. Diana might never punch as hard as Supes but she has a sword that can do more damage than anything else on the team. An example is the Thor vs Diana argument. Alot of sites have done the match up and claim Diana would win due to her sword. Even at post crisis power levels, she couldn't dish out that level of damage. Are swords used to kill or injure? Sure, but that's what heroes have been doing for years. Diana's punches don't exactly tickle. She shouldn't use it all the time but it should definitely be an option in her arsenal. Because it's the most powerful thing she has or might ever have.

I've already explained my problem with the Sword and Shield. How is it that the supposed Greatest Warrior in DC is the stupidest person when it comes to basic safety and use of a weapon. She swings them at everyone friends, family, children, etc... I'm surprised know one has inadvertently died because of her carelessness. She also lacks any real skill either, For the greatest warrior in DC she has shown little to no skill with a sword and shield. What do I mean by that?

Loading Video...

I know that comics cant replicate fully what happened in that video but you get the Idea. Don't even get me started with the effectiveness of her weapons too. It seems she uses them all the time but when the weapons actually need to back up their statements they suddenly fail.

Let alone her hand to hand skill, here I am expecting Taskmaster/Azula level BADASSERY and I get basic flying brick punches and kicks.

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That's skill, that's martial arts badassery. Where's Diana's skill? she should easily be able to replicate that.

The fight with GL wasn't that big a deal. She got emotional cause she wanted to save Steve, it's the same thing she did in the movie. They probably just needed an action moment. Honestly, the fact that she did it for a reason and got some good feats in doing so isn't all bad.

She attacked a teammate with a sword that was designed to cut atoms and actually cut him. She then turned to attack other teammates for trying to stop her. She was too emotional, what happened to Athena's wisdom? oh right she's Zeus's bastard now she no longer has those gifts from the Goddesses. The reason was unjustified and got in one decent feat kicking Superman making him bleed a little. A feat that Sups fans constantly point out as irrelevant because Superman didn't see it coming. And if anything Superman got a better feat because he grabbed Diana's sword and didn't instantly get his fingers cut off.

Everything has its up and down sides. Most Wonder Woman fans have different opinions on what the character is or should be because of how often she changes and that's why writers have a hard time writing her. She isn't always going to be perfect for everybody. I think compromise is the way to go cause things could always get worse.

Most fans just want DC to put there money where there mouth is when it comes to what Wonder Woman can do. DC says she's as powerful as Superman, DC says she's the greatest warrior, DC says XYZ about her but when push comes to shove what do they have to show for it? NOTHING.

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#26 Posted by Kevinffinity (211 posts) - - Show Bio

I've read everything you guys have written and most of the points are valid and understandable. I feel like we might end up going in circles so I'll just write down what I liked and disliked about how certain people have handled the character with brief explanations. If you disagree that's understandable. We have different tolerances and perception. So here goes.....

Instead on focusing on the names above I'd like to change some names since I'm not sure exactly how people like Didio influenced the character. I feel like most of that is speculation.

Geoff Johns

Liked - Diana is said to be the greatest warrior in the DC universe. Batman has been the world's greatest detective, Flash has been the fastest man alive and Superman has been "Earth's champion" since forever. It was about time Diana got her own "thing". It is atleast better than nothing in my opinion.

- Diana got a god mode. She had this in the Marston days but it's nice to have it back. I'm not a fan of Diana being OP (more powerful than Supes) but I like the idea that she suppresses her "OPness" with vambraces to avoid killing her opponent.

- Diana using a sword and shield. I would prefer if she used them less (only when fighting Darkseid level threats or greater) but none the less they added to her arsenal. Altho the shield got little to no feats, Diana's sword definitely elevated her offensive capabilities.

Disliked - Diana was a little too aggressive. She was overly emotional at times. When I first got into the character, it didn't bother me that much until I read more about the character and realised how she had changed over the years. Even though I think calling her a warrior woman is an exaggeration, she was definitely too aggressive. The Amazons selling babies was also a problem.

- While Diana was given the title of greatest warrior/ fighter, they did not specify what that meant. All we have is speculation based off of what batman said in one issue a long time ago. It would be great to know what they meant by it and see Wonder Woman prove it. I don't expect her to solo every villain but would have been nice to see her defeat an opponent no one else on the league could due to her "warrior abilities".

Scott Snyder - I can't think of any positives at the moment. He hasn't really been with the character long enough. She featured prominently in Aquaman's event but she wasn't at the power level I wanted (even though it wasn't her event).

I'm adding Zack Snyder (even though he didn't write her in comics he has had a large influence on her perception in the public so I feel it's important)

Liked - He "seems" to either have had an influence (Wonder Woman Warehouse fight) or directed Wonder woman's (the bank scene & BvS fight) best fight scenes.

- I know this might be controversial but I liked that she worked at the Louvre. I liked the idea that the Justice league was international in the sense that Diana and Arthur were based in locations outside the USA. I'm African so maybe that's why.

- Directed Diana's most powerful DCEU scenes. The fight with doomsday did a lot for Diana's stats. Unfortunately they ruined all that with Justice League.

Disliked - Justice League really made not just Diana but the whole league look inferior. To the point that it was like it was written by an angry Superman fan. It really implied that DC didn't care about any of it's other characters outside the money making Flagships.

- Diana is really slow. I don't have that big of a problem with her not flying but she was shockingly slow.

- Diana seemed to be really limited powerwise in her solo movie

- He made Wonder woman look pretty useless. To the point that it led to me making a thread about her usefulness.

- One of the most upsetting things that I believe came from Snyder was the death of the gods. The idea that a large portion of Diana's rogues were just killed off screen is frustrating.

Patty Jenkins (even though she didn't write her in comics she has had a large influence on her perception in the public so I feel it's important)

Liked - Diana seems to be compassionate

- She seems to have a strong vision for the character. Whether or not I agree with it/ like it, it's nice to know she knows where she's going

- She said that even though Diana is loving, the difference between her an Superman and Batman is that she would kill if she needed to.

Disliked - She directed one of wonder woman's worst fights, the third act fights. Diana didn't need to be blowing up planets for it to be a good fight. It just needed to be well choreographed. Even with limited finances, it would have been nice to see something good.

- Based on interviews and the first movie, she doesn't seem to be that interested in fight scenes. She seems to be more focused on relationships and less focused epic battles.

- She also seems to be more of a Superman fan than a Wonder woman fan. Sometimes it seems like she is or might adjust Wonder woman to be more like Clark (which has upsides and downsides)

I wanted to look at the positives and negatives. If I had to pick one, I'd say Scott Snyder but I feel like that's because he has a strong vision for the character that isn't what fans want not because he hates her or anything like that. I think they all have their pros and cons. I'm not saying what we get is perfect or even good but it could always get worse.

I think we should have a thread on which everyone shares their "ideal" version of the character. Not a story but personality, stats, relationships etc.

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#27 Posted by kgb725 (19583 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought The Amazons hated men ?

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#28 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@kgb725 said:

I thought The Amazons hated men ?

Not in most comics. Thank God Rebirth fixed that horrible n52 portrayal.

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#29 Posted by masterwitcher88 (1405 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we should have a thread on which everyone shares their "ideal" version of the character. Not a story but personality, stats, relationships etc.

I believe there was one but you can make another.

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#30 Posted by gunchar16 (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@kgb725 said:

I thought The Amazons hated men ?

No, that was never their point.

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#32 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterwitcher88: @archizooom@somayareece@geraldofvengerberg@scorpio_cassadine@klaus@Pokeysteve See what i mean?

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Here we see people like geof talking about WW being compassionate, smart, super powerful. Yet he gave us the portrayal of warrior woman in love with violence, stabbing everybody even her peers. And she never felt as much of a powerhouse as Pre 52 WW under his hands. Of course we also see snyder talking about what a powerhouse she is. But his WW in the movies was more about gear than power.

OH. And the hypocrisy shows big time in cliff chiang. First starting at 0:19 he says it was important to him to respect the character and show how powerful she is. Then at 8:35 he basically calls her miss perfect. And that they wanted her to be more vulnerable(aka weak because she did nothing impressive in azz run), because she wouldn't be interesting otherwise. "you need a character to make mistakes" She never made mistakes before new 52? Or maybe what they are trying to say is, she needs to look like she can't beat any big threat on her own to be good. Because in azz run, she never beat a male God without help, but could trash the female Gods by going into God Mode for example. I would like to ask people like chaing

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#33 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (651 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Archizooom (2179 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: You know I love Cliff Chiang and I don’t disagree with what he said. I think Perez and his disciples put Wonder Woman in a straightjacket of political-correctness where Diana has no personality apart from being right about everything

I believe the new 52 was a very heavy-handed, botched attempt to remedy that, especially outside her eponymous book where they basically turned Wonder Woman into a caricature of herself

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#35 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: You know I love Cliff Chiang and I don’t disagree with what he said. I think Perez and his disciples put Wonder Woman in a straightjacket of political-correctness where Diana has no personality apart from being right about everything

I believe the new 52 was a very heavy-handed, botched attempt to remedy that, especially outside her eponymous book where they basically turned Wonder Woman into a caricature of herself

@geraldofvengerberg@scorpio_cassadine@masterwitcher88

I don't agree with him because:

1) We can see her making mistakes and facing obstacles in many Pre 52 stories.

2) Her character had more depth and actually approached real life issues. None of the stories in n52 and onwards can compete with the most ambisious of WW stories in Pre 52, where she tackled issues like sexual liberation for women, equal rights, homosexuality, misoginy, etc.

And 3) How come that what chiang said, is never a big deal with Superman for example? He never has to face a downgrade in power on the level WW has suffered more than once. He is a goody two-shoes, a boy scout, the american dream and he is celebrated for that. When they tried to make him a little bit darker, they were fast to go back to basics. While WW continued to be weaker than before and portrayed as a caricature of what some men think a strong woman looks like.

chiang and many others in the past 8 years can't throw stones when they are living in a house of glass. What did they do that could be called great story telling? Turning WW into a female Hercules and taking away most of the things that made her character unique compared to most flying bricks? Turning her people into rapists while making the male amazons a bunch of saints that were quick to forgive the sins of the female amazons? What is so groundbreaking about that? To each their own, i just don't see the great things that chiang and company did with her.

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#36 Posted by PurplePerson (911 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, I don't agree with Chiang's comment.

The character is what she is. The way I see it is that the world isn't black and white, therefore characters don't have to be either. Put her in a situation where there is no "right" or "wrong" way to handle it or simply a situation where she can't find the best way to handle something and then you might get interesting stories. I don't know how he can think that butchering a character's origin and turning her people into rapists somehow makes her an interesting character.

I say this as someone who liked the Azz run for what it was.

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#37 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, I don't agree with Chiang's comment.

The character is what she is. The way I see it is that the world isn't black and white, therefore characters don't have to be either. Put her in a situation where there is no "right" or "wrong" way to handle it or simply a situation where she can't find the best way to handle something and then you might get interesting stories. I don't know how he can think that butchering a character's origin and turning her people into rapists somehow makes her an interesting character.

I say this as someone who liked the Azz run for what it was.

Very well said.

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#38 Posted by Archizooom (2179 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I like Azzarello’s run but I completely understand why some of the creatives choices he made didn’t go down well with fans, I got pretty worked up about them too I'm ashamed to say. That said, he did succeed in making Diana more likeable and charismatic, credit where credit is due. And the same is true of her supporting characters

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#39 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I like Azzarello’s run but I completely understand why some of the creatives choices he made didn’t go down well with fans, I got pretty worked up about them too I'm ashamed to say. That said, he did succeed in making Diana more likeable and charismatic, credit where credit is due. And the same is true of her supporting characters

I don't see it. But i can respect your opinion.

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#40 Posted by agent41 (15897 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterwitcher88: @geraldofvengerberg: @archizooom: @purpleperson Another example of these writers not truly caring about her legacy. An interview from azz.

https://www.timeout.com/chicago/things-to-do/wonder-woman-and-before-watchmen-writer-brian-azzarello-interview-outtakes

"A: I was out to dinner with Dan DiDio. This was actually prior to the New 52 becoming the New 52. We were actually in talks about me doing a different character. We’ve gone out to dinner and I told him what my feelings were about taking this character in a certain direction. He was happy with it, so we were finalizing that. I asked, “Are you doing this [heading in new directions] with some of the other ones?” He said Batman is staying Batman, and he told me what editorial wanted to do for Wonder Woman. I was appalled. I came up with something different right there at dinner. I thought the direction was going to be a mistake for that character, right at her core. And I knew nothing about her"!

"A: Some people thought it was an insult to the ideal of feminism. Giving her a father was an assault to that. Though I have never met a feminist who didn’t have a father. ... With Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, any really famous character, you can break their origins down into a sentence or two, and Wonder Woman didn’t have that. And the sentence or two is not for people who read comics; it’s for people outside of comics, in general popular culture. But now she is Zeus's daughter, and now it works. In a general pop-culture sense, it works. That’s something that everybody can get their head around".

So batman stays batman. But WW becoming female kratos/hercules and turning the amazons into murderes and rapists is showing "respect" to her character. Now that she has a father her origin "works" How i have to ask? by becoming one of Zeus bastards? If anything, that is a more generic origin, much less unique than her classic one.

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#41 Posted by Nucleon (3648 posts) - - Show Bio

As a part-time writer myself, I would have troubles handling such a character as Wonder Woman, in this day and age. I can see no way to please everyone of her fans. She got aspects that cannot co-exist with some other apects of hers. When one writes for WW, he ought to make a choice.

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#42 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (651 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: So Dan Didio and Azzrello are exclusively responsible for the new 52 mess

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#43 Posted by Archizooom (2179 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I guess we’ll never know what the editorial’s plan for Wonder Woman was but I bet it was even worse than what we ended up getting. Now I’m not a massive fan of the Pappa Zeus origin story either but only because it’s super generic, they could’ve come up with something a little more unique. Personally, I like Wonder Woman’s Earth-1 origin story best

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#44 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (651 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon said:

As a part-time writer myself, I would have troubles handling such a character as Wonder Woman, in this day and age. I can see no way to please every one of her fans. She got aspects that cannot co-exist with some other aspects of hers. When one writes for WW, he ought to make a choice.

Like What?

So you think choices like making her princess of a rapist or just another bastard child of Zeus are good choices

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#45 Posted by Nucleon (3648 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: Off the top of my head, the things that are most schizoid about WW:

- It's difficult to reconcile WW's most warrior aspects, such as the sword, with her peace-keeping aspect.

- Her American bunny flagsuit is difficult to reconcile her with her Aegean roots and origins.

- It's hard to reconcile her virgin high pristess role with any form of romance.

Each writer on WW must make a choice among these, and more, thus being certain to displease and alienate at least part of her fandom.

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#46 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (651 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon: She did not have a sword for 70 years. She had a lasso and she did powerful feats with that compared to Sword

The suit has nothing to do with Amazons but America. In the comics, the queen if she dressed in American colours she will be seen as non-threat and as an ally.

Original WW was in love Steve Trevor and not a virgin high priestess. Even in the movie, the romance was the best part.

These are not even the concerns here. Our main concern is DC rebooting her, changing her mythos and nerfing her and her universe compared to other characters

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#47 Posted by Nucleon (3648 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: These are not even the concerns here. Our main concern is DC rebooting her, changing her mythos and nerfing her and her universe compared to other characters

All this is par for the course as far as this character is concerned, for the reasons I mentionned. It's been about 80 years that WW went through temporary changes to more temporary changes. She is a multiple-hearts kind of character instead of having one focused direction, and that has been the case for as long as she existed.

Don't forget that she was created as a somewheat sexualized bonding expression, much more light-hearted than she is today. That was a real revolution at the time, and still is today. Nowadays that aspect has been thrown overboard.

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#48 Posted by masterwitcher88 (1405 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon said:

@geraldofvengerberg: Off the top of my head, the things that are most schizoid about WW:

- It's difficult to reconcile WW's most warrior aspects, such as the sword, with her peace-keeping aspect.

Are you going to write her like a piece of shit warrior that knows nothing about safety? Someone with no codes of honor, wisdom, generosity, valor, and compassion? Someone who swings her sword at everyone friends, family, even bystanders? Someone with no skill what so ever? Are her equipment useless in every situation that actually counts? Is she fighting with rage and anger? Is she fighting an unnecessary battle for a poor reason? Did she start it?

If the answer is no to all those questions you are fine.

- Her American bunny flagsuit is difficult to reconcile her with her Aegean roots and origins.

Just use the rebirth costume. Having some stars on her battle skirt is fine. If you need an origin for it look at my idea...

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/wonder-woman/4005-2048/forums/your-ideal-wonder-woman-1997077/?page=1#js-message-26

- It's hard to reconcile her virgin high pristess role with any form of romance.

My guy, every person here wants her to be with Steve. Some even want her to have a boy, the age of Jon or Damian, to complete the supersons trinity. Just not with Batman or Superman.

I actually have not met a single person that wants Diana to a 3,000+ year old virgin.

Each writer on WW must make a choice among these, and more, thus being certain to displease and alienate at least part of her fandom.

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#49 Posted by Geraldofvengerberg (651 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterwitcher88: Wouldn't Diana having a girl make much more sense considering Batman and Superman has sons.

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#50 Posted by masterwitcher88 (1405 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterwitcher88: Wouldn't Diana having a girl make much more sense considering Batman and Superman has sons.

That's what everyone expects. I just want to do something different. Besides you ca use him to really see the training Diana went through with the Amazons in really time, and how it would effect him being a boy. Like they are not cruel or anything, but they would push him harder and closer to perfection. His teacher, Nubia captain of the Royal Guard, would say stuff like "almost perfect, {insert whatever small mistake}" and he'd grow to be like "almost perfect isn't good enough". That would be his flaw, trying to be what the Amazons want him to be and what he thinks Diana wants him to be. Diana's lesson for him would be that perfection and power are overrated. But, because of that, he's supper skilled. Like think Azula from Avatar the last Air Bender, if you know who that is.

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