Is Wonder Woman the same level as Ms. Marvel?

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#151 Posted by agent41 (15871 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon said:

@agent41: She still can be shot by a .38, though.

And heal like nothing happened like we have seen more than once. Stay on topic please.

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#152 Posted by agent41 (15871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:
@agent41 said:
@dshipp17 said:
@agent41 said:
@masterwitcher88 said:

@agent41: what I tell you. Dshipp17 believes in his own version of reality when it comes to Wonder Woman and Marston, everything else is wrong.

SMH... Here is MARSTON'S OWN WORDS

“Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.”

― William Moulton Marston

“As lovely as Aphrodite - as wise as Athena - with the speed of Mercuryand the strength of Hercules - she is known only as Wonder Woman.”

― William Moulton Marston, Wonder Woman: The Golden Age Omnibus Vol. 2

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/89375.William_Moulton_Marston

@dshipp17

And since you always talk about other fans only expressing their own vision and opinion. Well, what you say about WW is just your opinion.It is not true that Marston WW had no big feats. It is not true that he wasn't thinking of a big female powerhouse when he created her. And the fact you deny he wanted her as the equal to Superman. When he said that's what he wanted her to be. When he said she is as wise as Athena, as fast as Mercury and as strong as Hercules. Those are the words and intentions of her creator. You can't sit here and tell us that you know better than Marston when it comes to what WW is supposed to be.

I didn't say any of those things about Marston. His run largely involved Wonder Woman doing detective work and getting into binds in order to solve a problem; once she found out and thought of a solution, she would break out of her bonds and come to the rescue; this would undoubtedly involve feats, at times; however, the overarching theme was the detective work and breaking out of binds; this means that Wonder Woman was more designed to be a thinking character not a warrior character; and that's the problem with the current Wonder Woman; and the overall problem of extracting her character from the theme of using her mind and breaking out of binds and coming to the rescue; naturally, one attribute of making Dr. Psycho her arch-nemesis, as intended, would go a very long way towards returning her to this theme; the other would return more of her late 60s-early 70s theme of adding the compassion part; however, by then, DC had largely removed the breaking out of a bind theme, but, it was still there, ever so slightly (e.g. the problem wasn't maintaining these Marston themes, the problem was, plan and simply, the creativity of the subsequent writers); but, now, it's getting to look like there's just no end in sight, where every new writer who comes in is apparently losing the fight to tell their own story, but to continue this line of story that very few people like, that started, when Gail Simone lost her battle to tell her own story, heading into the mid-2010 time period to what we have now; apparently, got to tell his own story, in introducing the New-52 era, but, that was it; and he literally did consider Dr. Psycho, but declined; but, I think that happened, because, to a large part, he wasn't really telling the story that he truly wanted to tell; DC needs to go back to the prior management style that existed throughout the 90s of giving each writer their freedom of movement with their story; with that, you should notice a very distinct difference between writers; for example, Messner-Loebs was drastically different from Perez; Byrne, although doing away with Messner-Loebs was still drastically different from both Perez and Messner-Loebs; and, then, the following writer, Luke was drastically different, from his predecessors, still; but, the problem is that Marston's main theme of Wonder Woman breaking out of binds using detective work should have still been there, as certain themes were still true of Batman and Superman throughout their history, despite the writer; otherwise, Batman might be a drunk crime fighter living in San Francisco, by now, had they given him the Wonder Woman treatment; throughout his history, he should have been through most professions and no professions, fighting crime; the fighting crime would kind of like having Wonder Woman keeping her lasso and bracelets.

Marston run involved Wonder Woman doing all type of things. That's why his run is so good. Versatility. She was a scientist, a diplomat, a detective, a warrior, a powerhouse. His run showed her intellegince, bravery, her power, her skills, etc. carol danvers has never been portrayed as such a multifaceted character like Marston Wonder Woman.

You jumped in before I'd finished my editing. Take a look at the final product of my post above.

Sure, my point was Wonder Woman used her mind and brute force, if necessary, not being a warrior. Marston's Wonder Woman wasn't actually a warrior. Making the Amazons warriors is a later addition, probably the Perez rendition; rather or not it started with Perez, his addition of the Amazons was them being warriors; it wasn't Marston's version.

Danvers could be multifaceted; Marvel's approach to character building leaves the possibilities open, at least, from the approach they showed during 90s X-men TAS.

The amazons in Marston were skilled, powerful, intelligent. They know how to fight, they know how to create and develop things more advanced than humans.

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#153 Posted by Nucleon (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: And heal like nothing happened like we have seen more than once. Stay on topic please.

Which is, unless I am wrong, a comparison of Wonder Woman and Carol Danvers' respective power levels. You can't kill Carol Danvers (assuming she's somehow powered) with a .38 revolver. In terms of power levels, only street levels and glass canons are easily killeable with a .38 shot. Wonder Woman can tank hits by Supes yet she can be killed by a kid holding a shop keeper's snub-nosed .38? What about fragments in a pitched battle, what about shrapnel? The fact that WW hasn't encountered a real, simple fragmentation grenade's effect shows some mary-sueish treatment of the character, IMO.

Wonder Woman isn't a balanced, stable or consistant character. Okay, Danvers hasn't been a paragon of stability neither, but at least one can safely send her to arrest a Bullseye or a Deadshot with having her getting killed.

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#154 Posted by agent41 (15871 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon said:

@agent41: And heal like nothing happened like we have seen more than once. Stay on topic please.

Which is, unless I am wrong, a comparison of Wonder Woman and Carol Danvers' respective power levels. You can't kill Carol Danvers (assuming she's somehow powered) with a .38 revolver. In terms of power levels, only street levels and glass canons are easily killeable with a .38 shot. Wonder Woman can tank hits by Supes yet she can be killed by a kid holding a shop keeper's snub-nosed .38? What about fragments in a pitched battle, what about shrapnel? The fact that WW hasn't encountered a real, simple fragmentation grenade's effect shows some mary-sueish treatment of the character, IMO.

Wonder Woman isn't a balanced, stable or consistant character. Okay, Danvers hasn't been a paragon of stability neither, but at least one can safely send her to arrest a Bullseye or a Deadshot with having her getting killed.

Wonder Woman has never been killed by a bullet. I remember her being shot in the chest, the adomen, and the head in Rebirth alone, and being fine afterwards. And she has contained granade explosions with her bare hands.

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#155 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12147 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman stomps Carol.

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#156 Edited by Nucleon (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Wonder Woman has never been killed by a bullet. I remember her being shot in the chest, the adomen, and the head in Rebirth alone, and being fine afterwards. And she has contained granade explosions with her bare hands.

She wasn't fine - she was hurt as heck. She would have been killed, too, if it was Deadshot firing it. I have seen a Gail Sinome run when she fights Shrapnel; the writers found nothing more to do for Shrapnel but staying there, conveniently passive, waiting for his turn at being demolished by WW.

It's like the Sleeping Beauty and her spining wheel "vulnerability"; Like the SB's father, DC writers take great cares to not getting her in contact with lethal firearms and explosive specialists, although one or two slipped by here and there. In other words, they job. Danvers doesn't get such a Mary-Sueish treatment at Marvel's.

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#157 Edited by agent41 (15871 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon said:

@agent41: Wonder Woman has never been killed by a bullet. I remember her being shot in the chest, the adomen, and the head in Rebirth alone, and being fine afterwards. And she has contained granade explosions with her bare hands.

She wasn't fine - she was hurt as heck. She would have been killed, too, if it was Deadshot firing it. I have seen a Gail Sinome run when she fights Shrapnel; the writers found nothing more to do for Shrapnel but staying there, conveniently passive, waiting for his turn at being demolished by WW.

It's like the Sleeping Beauty and her spining wheel "vulnerability"; Like the SB's father, DC writers take great cares to not getting her in contact with lethal firearms and explosive specialists, although one or two slipped by here and there. In other words, they job. Danvers doesn't get such a Mary-Sueish treatment at Marvel's.

She was fine and continued fighting. She didn't die from a shot to the head. A human being would have been dead after that. She just stood up and continued fighting. And she has encountered well trained snipers, including the likes of deadshot.

The susceptibility to bullets may be silly. But WW has never been treated as a spoiled princess like you try to make it out to be. Usually she is just there, doing nothing. It's been like this for years. On the other hand you have danvers. You think danvers doesn't get mary sue treatment? She has been pushed down our throats for years now. They are trying like there is no tomorrow to make her happen as an A list character. See civel war 2 for example. Or her upcoming movie where they gave her planetary level feats and made her more powerful than everybody else right from the start. When she was nowhere near that level in the comics. If DC tried even half as hard with Wonder Woman, what a story that would be. danvers is currently the defination of sjw hype.

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#158 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (651 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon said:

@agent41: Wonder Woman has never been killed by a bullet. I remember her being shot in the chest, the adomen, and the head in Rebirth alone, and being fine afterwards. And she has contained granade explosions with her bare hands.

She wasn't fine - she was hurt as heck. She would have been killed, too, if it was Deadshot firing it. I have seen a Gail Sinome run when she fights Shrapnel; the writers found nothing more to do for Shrapnel but staying there, conveniently passive, waiting for his turn at being demolished by WW.

It's like the Sleeping Beauty and her spining wheel "vulnerability"; Like the SB's father, DC writers take great cares to not getting her in contact with lethal firearms and explosive specialists, although one or two slipped by here and there. In other words, they job. Danvers doesn't get such a Mary-Sueish treatment at Marvel's.

What are you talking about? WW has healing factor. Go to DC website check for yourself

You are taking about Stupid Priest JL run where he conveniently forgot WW has healing factor and superspeed. In Greg Rucka WW run .she literally take sniper bullet to heart and shrugs it off or grenades explodes in her hand and is fine.

There is nothing Mary Suiesh about it but DC conveniently forgetting her powers or nerfing her . In the DCEU she can't even fly even though she has been flying comics since the 1950s. Will DC ever dare to take flight power from Superman or Shazam

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#159 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (651 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Seriously hating on Carol for Marvel treating her like WW should be treated by DC

If she succeeds DC will be forced to make WW more powerful and give her a larger role like Batman and Superman in DC Universe. DC has been sexist with WW nerfing her so she is inferior to Superman, Batman or Flash. Captain Marvel's success is paramount for DC to up there game with WW in DCEU and comics.

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#160 Posted by agent41 (15871 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Seriously hating on Carol for Marvel treating her like WW should be treated by DC

If she succeeds DC will be forced to make WW more powerful and give her a larger role like Batman and Superman in DC Universe. DC has been sexist with WW nerfing her so she is inferior to Superman, Batman or Flash. Captain Marvel's success is paramount for DC to up there game with WW in DCEU and comics.

I am not hating on carol.

I just told that other user that Wonder Woman is not getting special treatment from dc. While at marvel carol is. And of course they can do that. I think part of it feels too forced. But at the end of the day, they know what they want with her and go for it. And it's true DC should be that way with Wonder Woman.

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#161 Edited by Geraldofvengerberg (651 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Because Marvel knows how WW like character should be treated.Poweful and as a Leader Marvel made her a superhero because of WW Tv series popularity in 70s She is a healthy competition unlike Supergirl or Harley Quinn and will only help WW in the long run.

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#162 Edited by dshipp17 (5589 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg said:
@nucleon said:

@agent41: Wonder Woman has never been killed by a bullet. I remember her being shot in the chest, the adomen, and the head in Rebirth alone, and being fine afterwards. And she has contained granade explosions with her bare hands.

She wasn't fine - she was hurt as heck. She would have been killed, too, if it was Deadshot firing it. I have seen a Gail Sinome run when she fights Shrapnel; the writers found nothing more to do for Shrapnel but staying there, conveniently passive, waiting for his turn at being demolished by WW.

It's like the Sleeping Beauty and her spining wheel "vulnerability"; Like the SB's father, DC writers take great cares to not getting her in contact with lethal firearms and explosive specialists, although one or two slipped by here and there. In other words, they job. Danvers doesn't get such a Mary-Sueish treatment at Marvel's.

What are you talking about? WW has healing factor. Go to DC website check for yourself

You are taking about Stupid Priest JL run where he conveniently forgot WW has healing factor. In Greg Rucka WW run .she literally take sniper bullet to heart and shrugs it off or grenades explodes in her hand and is fine.

There is nothing Mary Suiesh about it but DC conveniently forgetting her powers or nerfing her . In the DCEU she can't even fly even though she has been flying comics since the 1950s. Will DC ever dare to take flight power from Superman or Shazam

That wasn't stupid at all, just good writing by Priest; Wonder Woman is supposed to be venerable to bullets and sharp objects; that's the way her creator made her; if anything, it's Rucka who is off. Messner-Loebs got this right too; during his run, Wonder Woman needed to go through a recovery phase; once through that, she had to regain her ability to fly; that's good, realistic writing that is intended for Wonder Woman.

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#163 Posted by masterwitcher88 (1401 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:
@geraldofvengerberg said:
@nucleon said:

@agent41: Wonder Woman has never been killed by a bullet. I remember her being shot in the chest, the adomen, and the head in Rebirth alone, and being fine afterwards. And she has contained granade explosions with her bare hands.

She wasn't fine - she was hurt as heck. She would have been killed, too, if it was Deadshot firing it. I have seen a Gail Sinome run when she fights Shrapnel; the writers found nothing more to do for Shrapnel but staying there, conveniently passive, waiting for his turn at being demolished by WW.

It's like the Sleeping Beauty and her spining wheel "vulnerability"; Like the SB's father, DC writers take great cares to not getting her in contact with lethal firearms and explosive specialists, although one or two slipped by here and there. In other words, they job. Danvers doesn't get such a Mary-Sueish treatment at Marvel's.

What are you talking about? WW has healing factor. Go to DC website check for yourself

You are taking about Stupid Priest JL run where he conveniently forgot WW has healing factor. In Greg Rucka WW run .she literally take sniper bullet to heart and shrugs it off or grenades explodes in her hand and is fine.

There is nothing Mary Suiesh about it but DC conveniently forgetting her powers or nerfing her . In the DCEU she can't even fly even though she has been flying comics since the 1950s. Will DC ever dare to take flight power from Superman or Shazam

That wasn't stupid at all, just good writing by Priest; Wonder Woman is supposed to be venerable to bullets and sharp objects; that's the way her creator made her; if anything, it's Rucka who is off. Messner-Loebs got this right too; during his run, Wonder Woman needed to go through a recovery phase; once through that, she had to regain her ability to fly; that's good, realistic writing that is intended for Wonder Woman.

Realism in a story about a Goddess level Amazon can piss off.

Online
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#164 Posted by agent41 (15871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:
@geraldofvengerberg said:
@nucleon said:

@agent41: Wonder Woman has never been killed by a bullet. I remember her being shot in the chest, the adomen, and the head in Rebirth alone, and being fine afterwards. And she has contained granade explosions with her bare hands.

She wasn't fine - she was hurt as heck. She would have been killed, too, if it was Deadshot firing it. I have seen a Gail Sinome run when she fights Shrapnel; the writers found nothing more to do for Shrapnel but staying there, conveniently passive, waiting for his turn at being demolished by WW.

It's like the Sleeping Beauty and her spining wheel "vulnerability"; Like the SB's father, DC writers take great cares to not getting her in contact with lethal firearms and explosive specialists, although one or two slipped by here and there. In other words, they job. Danvers doesn't get such a Mary-Sueish treatment at Marvel's.

What are you talking about? WW has healing factor. Go to DC website check for yourself

You are taking about Stupid Priest JL run where he conveniently forgot WW has healing factor. In Greg Rucka WW run .she literally take sniper bullet to heart and shrugs it off or grenades explodes in her hand and is fine.

There is nothing Mary Suiesh about it but DC conveniently forgetting her powers or nerfing her . In the DCEU she can't even fly even though she has been flying comics since the 1950s. Will DC ever dare to take flight power from Superman or Shazam

That wasn't stupid at all, just good writing by Priest; Wonder Woman is supposed to be venerable to bullets and sharp objects; that's the way her creator made her; if anything, it's Rucka who is off. Messner-Loebs got this right too; during his run, Wonder Woman needed to go through a recovery phase; once through that, she had to regain her ability to fly; that's good, realistic writing that is intended for Wonder Woman.

Her creator also made her to be Superman's equal. Yet you want to deny it. And Marston WW does have a healing factor too.

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#165 Posted by Nucleon (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: She was fine and continued fighting. She didn't die from a shot to the head. A human being would have been dead after that. She just stood up and continued fighting. And she has encountered well trained snipers, including the likes of deadshot.

The susceptibility to bullets may be silly.

No - it's great; WW deflecting bullets with her bracers is one of her iconic poses.

The problem here is that as far as DC is concerned, "powerful" = "Superman". In other words, there's just no alternate ways to be powerful other than becoming a Superman clone. Just look at Wolverine: He is in fact an alternate brick, trading durability with fast healing and brute strength with enhanced damage capabilities (the claws). There's just no other path to power and/or respectability in DC than sooperstrint/speed, invulnerability, flight and theme-vision.

But WW has never been treated as a spoiled princess like you try to make it out to be. Usually she is just there, doing nothing. It's been like this for years. On the other hand you have danvers. You think danvers doesn't get mary sue treatment? She has been pushed down our throats for years now. They are trying like there is no tomorrow to make her happen as an A list character. See civel war 2 for example. Or her upcoming movie where they gave her planetary level feats and made her more powerful than everybody else right from the start. When she was nowhere near that level in the comics. If DC tried even half as hard with Wonder Woman, what a story that would be. danvers is currently the defination of sjw hype.

I can't deny the stuff you wrote, and I also feel for cramming Marvel's Cap Marvel down our collective throats ever since Monica Rambeau, but yet the character always was kind of powerful, even when he was a Kree man.

And yet, I must rest my case and denounce how DC conveniently shielded WW from the yet abundant ways to hurt her.

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#166 Posted by Nucleon (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

@geraldofvengerberg: What are you talking about? WW has healing factor. Go to DC website check for yourself

You are taking about Stupid Priest JL run where he conveniently forgot WW has healing factor and superspeed. In Greg Rucka WW run .she literally take sniper bullet to heart and shrugs it off or grenades explodes in her hand and is fine.

There is nothing Mary Suiesh about it but DC conveniently forgetting her powers or nerfing her . In the DCEU she can't even fly even though she has been flying comics since the 1950s. Will DC ever dare to take flight power from Superman or Shazam

Huh? I thought the original one flew with an invisible plane, well into the 80s.

Just as well, IMO. Wonder Woman does look kind of ackward when she flies, as if she had a flight ring instead of being a natural at it. Maybe it's just me. In anycase, making WW fly on her own is part of a process that aim to "Supermanize" her.

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#167 Posted by Nucleon (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Her creator also made her to be Superman's equal. Yet you want to deny it. And Marston WW does have a healing factor too.

The Superman of that time was kind of humble. And everybody's got a "healing factor", unless one of us is a cyborg or a bot of some kind. But like WW's, it isn't elevated enough in her case to be a significant power, not when compared to invulnerability.

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#168 Posted by agent41 (15871 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon said:

@agent41: She was fine and continued fighting. She didn't die from a shot to the head. A human being would have been dead after that. She just stood up and continued fighting. And she has encountered well trained snipers, including the likes of deadshot.

The susceptibility to bullets may be silly.

No - it's great; WW deflecting bullets with her bracers is one of her iconic poses.

The problem here is that as far as DC is concerned, "powerful" = "Superman". In other words, there's just no alternate ways to be powerful other than becoming a Superman clone. Just look at Wolverine: He is in fact an alternate brick, trading durability with fast healing and brute strength with enhanced damage capabilities (the claws). There's just no other path to power and/or respectability in DC than sooperstrint/speed, invulnerability, flight and theme-vision.

But WW has never been treated as a spoiled princess like you try to make it out to be. Usually she is just there, doing nothing. It's been like this for years. On the other hand you have danvers. You think danvers doesn't get mary sue treatment? She has been pushed down our throats for years now. They are trying like there is no tomorrow to make her happen as an A list character. See civel war 2 for example. Or her upcoming movie where they gave her planetary level feats and made her more powerful than everybody else right from the start. When she was nowhere near that level in the comics. If DC tried even half as hard with Wonder Woman, what a story that would be. danvers is currently the defination of sjw hype.

I can't deny the stuff you wrote, and I also feel for cramming Marvel's Cap Marvel down our collective throats ever since Monica Rambeau, but yet the character always was kind of powerful, even when he was a Kree man.

And yet, I must rest my case and denounce how DC conveniently shielded WW from the yet abundant ways to hurt her.

It's iconic. But she can still use her bracelets without having the susceptible point to bullets.

And Wonder Woman has always been powerful, and more powerful than carol danvers. You only need to compare their respective catalogue of feats.

Also it's true what @geraldofvengerberg said. WW has been flying since the 50s. And don't forget that original Amazon and WW's powers came from mentaal training. And she could increase her powers via mental determination and training.

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